Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ajum Goolam Hossen

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. No comments after 2 relistings so I'm closing this as No consensus. Feel free to return to AFD at a future date. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:15, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ajum Goolam Hossen

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No evidence of any notability. The refs quoted are simple name checks except for one article which is a blog. Fails WP:GNG Velella ^{Velella Talk} 11:25, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Mauritius-related deletion discussions. Velella ^{Velella Talk} 11:25, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 13:15, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you actually read the article, you would see that the information is displayed in these books. You can’t set it for deletion if you haven’t even read the articles properly. Ajum was the owner of a major trade company in Mauritius and was secretary and co-founder of the Surtee Soonnee Mussulman Society, which has made a great impact on the Muslims (not just Surtis) in Mauritius. If that’s not notability, I don’t know what is. Yolia21 (talk) 15:04, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please tell me which citations do not fit the requirements. I used the same sources as used in Amode Ibrahim Atchia as the person was also a Mauritian businessman. It has the same information. Yolia21 (talk) 15:11, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I have read both the article and the references provided.

The first is a record of a civil court case. There is a name check but nothing that talks of notability
The second ref has a name check for "A J Hossen" and a short quote. Nothing about the subject.
The third is a blog believed to be the blog of the article creator - blogs have no value in asserting notability
The fourth does not appear to mention the subject
The fifth states "Goolam Hossen Piperdy who died in 1875 after successfully founding A G Hossen and Co. engaged in extensive import and export activities , had branches in Calcutta, Bombay, St Denis.....". The quote continues but adds nothing to indicate any significant notability. He was obviously a good businessman of his time but that isn't a claim to notability
The sixth is another civil court case decision about the value of goods - no notability here.
The seventh demonstrates that he shook hands with Mr K Gandhi in 1901 - again no evidence of notability.

In Summary, none of the sources discuss the subject, they are all mentions or name checks and thus the article fails WP:GNG as noted in the nomination, Velella ^{Velella Talk} 15:33, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I found several refs cited online that may mention them but they may be available on paper only. If someone here has access to them, please try to dig them up. They might solve the notability as well as enrich the article with useful content:
- Rouillard, G. (1964) Histoire des Domaines, Sucriers De L’Ile Maurice. Les Pailes-Ile Maurice: The General Printing and Stationary Company, Limited

- The Gujurati Merchants in Mauritius 10 THE GUJURATI MERCHANTS IN MAURITIUS: 1850-1900 AC Kalla - The Coolie Connection: From the Orient to the Occident, 1992 - Windsor Press
  - Also published as: The Gujarati merchants in Mauritius c. 1850–1900 AC Kalla - Journal of Mauritian Studies, 1987

In the meantime, these potential refs don't count in this discussion

Velella, I disagree with your assessment of ref #5, especially in combination with #7. #5 indicates he was a major player in the economy and #7 indicates he was the leader of the dominant group on the island, Indo-Mauritians, who welcomed Gandhi. I'll further note that our notability guideline does not discriminate against successful or unsuccessful businesspeople -- they're based on references.

--A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 17:22, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you A.B. Yolia21 (talk) 18:31, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

They are called references for a reason.

The first reference is to show that Ajum died on the 14th of February in 1919.
The second shows that he was notable individual in the Surtee community in Mauritius
The third is written from knowledge of his descendants. (me) This is not the first time this has happened as shown in Amode Ibrahim Atchia’s reference of a blog by Michael Atchia, his grandson.
The 4th shows his sugar factory in Pamplemousses.
The 5th talks about his company and how we was a notable trader in Port Louis, which is why he’s mentioned in the book in the first place.
The 6th talks about how he had many branches across the Indian Ocean like Singapore, South Africa, Mauritius, and India.
The 7th is talking about how his company faced legal issues which lead to the collapse of it. This is one of many recorded cases of Ajum Goolam Hossen and Co.
The 8th talks about how Ajum hosted M K Gandhi and Ajum did a speech with his son and two others. A person doing a speech at Taher Bagh when M K Gandhi is there is most likely a notable person.
The 9th shows his contributions to the recovery of Mauritius after the cyclone and his contribution to Rander, his family’s origin town.

Yolia21 (talk) 18:59, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Heritage Reclaimed by AC Kalla even mentions how notable he and his father was. Yolia21 (talk) 12:49, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think that there is a misunderstanding about the word "notability". Wikipedia defines notability in very specific ways that require multiple reliable sources that discuss the subject. "Discuss" does not equate to mention. Equally, a source that states that a person is notable does not equate to "Notability" in Wilkipedia. The two concepts are quite separate and different. Sources may state that the subject is notable but that doesn't support notability here. Regarding the comment about businessmen - I made no assertion about his role as a businessman and his potential notability. What would be very useful if someone with access to the references quoted here (but not in the article) could provide unedited trascripts of the relevant passages onto the talk page of the article. I have so far seen no text that conveys notability. Velella ^{Velella Talk} 13:31, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There are multiple sources that talk about him, but I do not have access to all of them like you said. I dont understand what makes a person notable. Is there a specific amount of references? Yolia21 (talk) 14:01, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The requirements are set out at WP:BIO. To be able to meet those standards it is necessary for the supporting texts to be read and be capable of being quoted. The sources don't have to be universally available and, especially for a person in Mauritius in the 19th century that might be very difficult but extracts from named documents from the National Library in Port Louis would be acceptable if they do indeed confirm notability. Velella ^{Velella Talk} 14:32, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am currently contacting Abdool Cader Kalla on information of Ajum. Kalla is an author located in Mauritius who has made lots of books about Mauritian Indians. Maybe we can get more references. Yolia21 (talk) 12:56, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I added about 9 references, now there are 16 in total. Does that make him notable? You may check the sources if you want. Yolia21 (talk) 20:22, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry but the simple number of references does not add anything to notability. As noted above, what is required is reliable and independent sources discussing the subject. Thus court rulings, press reports of visiting dignitaries which simply mention the subject do not equate to notability. As previously suggested, copying some key paragraphs from these sources where the subject is discussed in a way that demonstrates notability would help enormously. At present, just from the sources quoted , I am still not seeing evidence of notability. Velella ^{Velella Talk} 22:57, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I added some of the references you mentioned which you said could show notability. Yolia21 (talk) 23:37, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting. I'd like to see a second opinion on the article expansion since nomination.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:49, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting, we need some more source assessments and opinions on what should happen with this article.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:36, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.