Talk:Gaston, Duke of Orléans

On the art of being silly

To Whom It May Concern:

Here are a few excerpts from the article Gaston d'Orléans as edited by 81.159.252.120 who has begun an attack of this article:

(1) Gaston de France was born at the Château de Fontainebleau and was given at birth the title of duc d'Anjou. The third son and fifth child of his parents, he would later be the brother of the Queen of Spain (b 1602), the Duchess Consort of Savoy (b 1606) and the Queen Consort of England Scotland and Ireland (b 1609). He was later to be the favourite son of his mother who lavished attention on him - a mistake which would later become a large part of French History

Picking a cherry off the cake: "... he would later be the brother of the Queen of Spain..."

Question: What was his relationship to the Queen of Spain, The Duchess Consort of Savoy etc. before being their brother?

Queen Consort of England Scotland and Ireland - quite a title

...*a mistake which would later become a large part of French History.*: which large part of French History is identified with this *mistake*? Can 81.159.252.120 give a source for such a statement or is it his personal opinion?

(2) At the Assassination of his father in Paris in 1610, left his older brother, the young Louis XIII of France, King at the age of 9. Because of his age, his mother would become the Régente de France. This also meant that he and his other brother, Nicholas Henri were also in line to the throne.

(3) In 1611, his older brother Nicholas Henri de France, duc d'Orléans since birth died at the age of 4. As a result Gaston was given the *appange* of the Duchy of Orléans amongst other titles and lands. His brother had also been engaged to Marie de Bourbon, the duchesse de Montpensier in her own right and the *hieress* of her father Henri de Bourbon-Montpensier, last male of the House of Bourbon-Montpensier; it was then decided that the Marie would later marry Gaston as the next son of his parents. As Nicholas was the second son, Gaston now became the heir presumptive of his brother.

Picking more cherries: *appange*, *hieress* (spelling 81.159.252.120 inherited from succession of clones), *the next son of his parents*, *as Nicholas was the second son*: readers already know Nicholas is the older brother of Gaston.

(4) After under a year of marriage to Marie, she gave birth to her only at the Palais du Louvre - Marie would die a week later.

A sentence difficult to understand: *after under a year of marriage to Marie, she gave birth to her only... ???

(5) 2 years after the death of Marie, Gaston tried to gain support for a marriage to Marie Louise de Mantoue but his brother refused the match and had her imprisoned at the Château de Vincennes. She later married a King of Poland.

Did his brother (L. XIII) have Marie Louise de Mantoue imprisoned to make sure Gaston would not marry her? It would be appropriate to give a source when making such a statement.

Also, which *King of Poland* did she marry later?

(6) After falling in love with Marguerite de Lorraine, he married her secretly with the permission of his mother, then known as the Reine mère. His brother did not recognise the marriage and as a result, Gaston and his wife were not allowed at court. After making up with his brother after on of Gastons failed attempts to overthrow Richelieu, Louis forgave his brother and after 11 years of marriage, the couple were allowed to court officially in 1643. Louis XIII died that year and his son Louis XIV of France would become the protégé of his mother, the new Régente de France.

What does this mean?: *After making up with his brother after on of Gastons failed attempts to overthrow Richelieu...*

and this: *Louis XIV of France would become the protégé of his mother...*

(7) In 1638, his brother finally had an *hier* to the throne, the new Dauphin de France now *securred* the throne and thus Gaston was no longer the *hier* of his brother, which he had been for nearly 30 years. In 1640, *his brother then became a father for the second time* - Philippe de France.

ad infinitum

Frania W. (talk) 03:46, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Well done, Frania! To top it all off, this poorly written, historically incorrect edits, of 81.159.252.120 have NO references! Kansas Bear (talk) 04:06, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

you 2 really know how 2 bore people dont you; your constant moaning only encourages me 2 revert and i will continue 2 do so. if there are certain mistakes (i am human) then correct them/edit them rather then being all childish and protective over a dull and relatively ignored article.

as regards no references . . as soon as this idiotic so called revert war [ha ha ha] is over i WILL add them.

who on earth are you to tell me what to do...wikipedia is a team effort not jus the juvenile kansas fool and the arrogant frania

good luck. 81.159.252.120 (talk) 13:57, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

User 81.159.252.120: The only way for anyone to correct your mistakes is to do what we have been doing since you decided to "improve" this *dull* article: revert. We are not your first grade teachers having to correct every one of your mistakes. It is obvious that you are playing a game; in Wikipedia it is called vandalism, to which you are mixing a good dose of incivility. Frania W. (talk) 18:25, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

While I agree that if the article must list a surname for Gaston it is de France, I see no reason why not to simply mention (not in the first paragraph) that he is a fils de France and leave it at that -- which explains surname usages for French kings' children. The disruptor of these articles is, as Frania knows, a sockpuppet of 86.158.101.203, who also used 86.154.178.231, and was reported at WP:Suspected sock puppets on 6 June 2008. I accepted his suggestion of a truce on 25 May 2008, but he promptly broke it using a new puppet. Essentially, he enjoys uploading trivial royal history to Wikipedia, and feels others should edit it into shape, rather than him having to put forth that effort. He just creates new accounts to continue vandalizing. One can try to semi-protect all of the articles he edits (the House of Bourbon and House of Orléans), but that's a lot of articles. He needs to be banned. FactStraight (talk) 04:05, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Whether Gaston *d'Orléans* or *de France*, this technical point can be resolved without a war: Gaston de France, known as Gaston d'Orléans, for instance. The real problem here is vandalism through sockpuppetry by an individual who regenerates himself instantly (régénération spontanée) the minute he is cornered. Frania W. (talk) 13:51, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

For the sake of your own sanity..shut up with all the sockpuppet rubbish; its dull as well as completely irrelevant - the address changes itself with no encouragement from me. Now, i dont see how, for example, saying that he was a fils de france he was born "Gaston de France" but was known as "Gaston d'Orléans" - where is the sense in arguing about tiny little points like that?? once again it is a complete waste of time as are ALL your collective dull moanings. also..how does saying 'x' was born this and was known as 'w' - HOW DOES THIS BECOME VANDALISM????? (along with giving his wifes name and the fact that she was a duchesse in her own right etc) i am more then happy to act cival but on the request that the little clique d'Orléans are mature about the article amongst other things...... later i will submit an example of the content in regardless of your views; i will post it HERE at a later date 81.159.252.120 (talk) 20:18, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Gaston, was commonly referred to as, d'Orleans. Where he is rarely mentioned as "de France" it is followed by duc d'Orleans. If references are needed to prove "Gaston d'Orleans"; try Tapie("France in the Age of Louis XIII and Richelieu"), Pitts("La Grande Mademoiselle at the Court of France"), Alan James("The Origins of French Absolutism"), Guizot("History of France"), Moote("Louis XIII, The Just"),Bracken("The Arch Conspirator: Essays and Actions"), Levi("Louis XIV"), Alexeev("The Adventures of Giulio Mazarini"), Dumas("Louise de la Valliere"), Barine("La Grande Mademoiselle, 1627-1652"), just to name a few. As for the sockpuppet, if he/she continues with the childish insults/language, then contact Khoikhoi[1], Husond[2], or some other administrator. Kansas Bear (talk) 21:01, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Mention "Gaston d'Orléans" in France and everyone will know about whom you are speaking. Mention "Gaston de France" and you will get a questioning look. Petit Robert 2 has nothing on *France* but lists our Gaston as: ***Orléans, (Gaston, comte d'Eu, duc d'Orléans). Troisième fils de Henri IV et frère de Louis XIII [...]*** No mention of "de France". Now, the name of Henri IV, his father, was "Bourbon". On the kings who followed, no last name is given, but they all were of the Bourbon House: Bourbon (all the reigning kings from Henri IV until L. Charles X, last & non-reigning: comte de Chambord); Bourbon-Orléans (Louis-Philippe I, with living representative: the comte de Paris); Bourbon-Condé; Bourbon-Conti; Bourbon-Vendôme; Bourbon-Maine (extinct bastard line), Bourbon-Toulouse-Penthièvre (extinct bastard line). Then there is the Spanish branch of Bourbon-Anjou with king (oops, Brian! King) Juan Carlos.

Here is a genealogy link I just found, it starts with Henri IV; by clicking on the next in line, you get all the way to the last king: http://gw1.geneanet.org/index.php3?b=genearoyales&lang=fr;p=henri;n=de+bourbon. Hoping I am not confusing the issue. Frania W. (talk) 23:18, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

An additional link to French royal titles/terms of address/patronyms etc. some of you may already be familiar with:

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/frroyal.htm#lineage Frania W. (talk) 18:56, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

HELPPPPP!

THE INFO ABOVE IS THE POSSIBLE RESUB THAT I HAVE DONE - ANYONE IS MORE THEN WELCOME TO ADD DETAILS ETC. it does not seem to let me put the other foreign articles up though [i have no idea why]. could someone correct this please 81.159.252.120 (talk) 12:41, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Children

Is it necessary to have so much information in that section? Unnecessary blue-linking on details that do not belong there make it hard to read, for instance:

• Marguerite Louise d'Orléans (July 28, 1645, Paris – September 17, 1721 Paris),
  • married in Florence on June 20, 1661 Cosimo III de' Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany (separated 1675).

Marguerite Louise d'Orléans is blue-linked, so instead of giving the month, day & year of her birth & death, why not give only the years. Same type of simplification on her marriage.

simplified to:

• Marguerite Louise d'Orléans 1645 (Paris), 1721 (Paris),
  • married Cosimo III de' Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany (separated 1675).

2nd example:

• Elisabeth d'Orléans (December 26, 1646, Paris – March 17, 1696, Versailles), duchesse d'Alençon,
  • married at Saint-Germain-en-Laye on May 15, 1667 Louis Joseph de Guise.

simplified to:

• Elisabeth d'Orléans 1646 (Paris), 1696 (Versailles), duchesse d'Alençon,
  • married Louis Joseph, duc de Guise.

3rd example:

• Françoise Madeleine d'Orléans (October 13, 1648, Saint-Germain-en-Laye – January 14, 1664, Turin),
  • married at The Louvre (March 4, 1663) Charles Emmanuel II of Savoy, no issue.

simplified to:

• Françoise Madeleine d'Orléans 1648 (Saint-Germain-en-Laye), 1664 (Turin),
  • married Charles Emmanuel II of Savoy, no issue.

4th example:

• Jean Gaston d'Orléans (August 17, 1650, Paris – August 10, 1652, Paris), duc de Valois.

simplified to:

• Jean Gaston d'Orléans 1650 (Paris), 1652 (Paris), duc de Valois.

5th example:

• Marie Anne d'Orléans (November 9, 1652, Paris – August 17, 1695, Blois), Mademoiselle de Chartres.

simplified to:

• Marie Anne d'Orléans 1652 (Paris), 1695 (Blois), Mademoiselle de Chartres.

Frania W. (talk) 23:42, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Back to July 2008 problem

Why does 86.149.172.104, twin of 81.159.252.120 (see July 2008 above): same style etc. keep on reverting the whole article - without a word, deleting the work done by other editors who had spent months reaching consensus? 86.149.172.104 is reverting daily aticles on the Bourbon of France (Bourbon, Orléans, Condé, Conti...) If 86.149.172.104 has new details to bring to articles, he/she can do it without reverting the whole article, and also have the courtesy to give reasons for change. Frania W. (talk) 17:44, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

The changes made by 86.149.172.104 and 81.159.252.120, are not concise and include information not pertinant to this article. This [3] evidence shows how Gaston d'Orleans is recognized. He is not referenced as "Gaston de France", and continued use of such a name will only distort and mislead those that do read this article. Also, the changes made fall under Wikipedia:Consensus[4], which has been blantantly ignored by both Anon IPs. --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:22, 7 March 2009 (UTC)