The best answers address the question directly, and back up facts with wikilinks and links to sources. Do not edit others' comments and do not give any medical or legal advice.
Any idea what kind of gun is visible on the right edge of this picture? The scene is the Odd Fellows' Cemetery Mound near Cincinnati; my goal in taking the picture was the mound, and I only noticed the gun as I was preparing to upload the image this evening. Nyttend (talk) 03:15, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not based on particular personal knowledge, apart from judging it to be a 75/76mm weapon. I just compared it to the images in the WWII American artillery category. The angled gun shield with the cutouts appears to be distinctive to the M5. Acroterion(talk)03:57, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a veterans' section, because I remember that several gravestones on the edge of the mound (funny how often whites built their cemeteries around Indian mounds; see Mound Cemetery for a few examples) were simple headstones of couples and lacking the little US flag markers such as you see in this photo. Perhaps it's part of a memorial, however, since there's the flagpole with the US flag behind the gun and the big wooden sign to the right of it. Per its name, the cemetery itself was originally IOOF, and some of the cemetery's oldest gravestones (far older than World War II) are at the mound. Nyttend (talk) 17:29, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've seen some veterans' memorials in unlikely spots, although I'd think that an old anti-tank gun would be more at home outside the local VFW or Amvets than the Odd Fellows Cemetery. Still, maybe the influence of the old Indian mound made somebody think that it was a fine place for obsolete commemorative artillery. Acroterion(talk)18:57, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Scientific techniques for dating of stone inscriptions
What are the scientific techniques used by experts for dating stone inscriptions? I am under the impression that Radiocarbon dating is not of much help for stone inscriptions. Are there any tools ( geological/ chemical/ radiographical/ etc.) for dating stone inscriptions when palaeographical and relative dating techniques fail? Are such techniques used to check whether a newly discovered inscription is fake or not? 180.149.48.245 (talk) 08:25, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not that I'm aware of. I think that most radiocarbon datings of this sort look for something biological that's obviously from the same strata or same area. If the stone is igneous there might be some other methods, for instance seeing the magnetic polarity of the stone... but that's a little different than radio carbon dating. You might have better mileage at the science desk. Shadowjams (talk) 08:51, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
One technique that may be of use is to analyse the surface 'glaze' or 'patina'. The term patina itself usually refers to metal and wood artefacts, but a surface 'finish' can also form on stone (partly from bacteriological activity) over extended periods (and I'm sure there's another term for it, but I can't remember what it is - something to do with wind? Anyone?).
Examination of the inscription may reveal, by the amount of patina (if any) that has appeared in the grooves or whatever, whether the inscription is new or roughly how old it is in comparison to the uninscribed surrounding surface. However, such patinas can be faked (as well as inadvertently altered or removed by cleaning), and the science of their analysis seems not to be as well developed as one might like.
There have been attempts to prove or disprove the authenticity or all or the latter part of the "Yaakov bar Yoseph Achui de Yeshua" ("James son of Joseph, Brother of Jesus") inscription on the James Ossuary by analysing its real or faked or accidentally altered patina, but the results are much disputed. The patina of the Jehoash Inscription has also been analysed. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 09:54, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Are there any beliefs held by religious Jews (ie from the Torah and Talmud) that are "absurd", in the way that Thomas Aquinas meant when he wrote (of his own faith) Credo quia absurdum est (loosely, It is precisely because what I believe is absurd that I say I believe in it)? For example, I mean "absurd" in the sense that an item is supposed to be 100% human (Jesus) and 100% Godly (his father). It's easy to believe in that, but it is "absurd" in the sense that I mean. So, my question is whether there are any beliefs held by Jews that are likewise "absurd" or require believing in a contradiction? 92.229.14.166 (talk) 08:59, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have the full context on your definition of absurd, but something like the anomaly in creation stories in Genesis, would that apply? Shadowjams (talk) 09:04, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not the OP, but I shouldn't think so. What would be absurd in this sense would be a belief that God literally created many humans as the first humans, male and female, at the exact same time, as well as believing that he literally created Adam as the first man from whom all humans are descended, and then later created Eve from Adam's rib. I don't know if there are many Jews that believe that: there aren't many Christians who do. That belief might be based on the Genesis, but (if I'm understanding the question right) it would be that specific, contradictory belief that would be absurd, not that writings exist that can be so interpretted. 86.164.66.83 (talk) 09:44, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Such a belief, Shadow + 86, is indeed maintained by many uninfored, ill-educated individuals of many faiths, Judaism included. But that would certainly not be a core belief of Judaism. See Natan Slifkin and his work The Challenge of Creation. Judaism prides itself on being reality and not subscribing to any belief which is contrary to such a premise. Christian beliefs such as transubstantiation and, as you mentioned, Jesus being 100% God and 100% man at the same time are completely foreign to Judaism. This is not to see that there are not controversies and disputes and many other similar issues that arise and require intense scrutiny, evaluation and assessment when facts about the world are realized (such as planet Earth orbiting the Sun -- the Talmudic scholars indeed mention that they maintained that they initially thought that the Sun half orbited the Earth and then returned "over" the sky to reach the eastern horizon for the next day), but in tune with Judaism's goal of being a reflection of reality, such intrinsic contradictions are highly undesireable and those who perpetuate them are rapidly neutralized if not by quantity then at least by a rational minority. Sometimes inane people must be left to preach as they will. DRosenbach(Talk | Contribs)09:57, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, there are lots of Jewish beliefs that at first glance are contradictions, but most have explanations, making your question hard to respond to. --Dweller (talk) 12:31, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Explanations exist in RS for any contradictions I can think of, Bus stop. If you choose to disagree with them, that's your POV, but it doesn't negate their existence. --Dweller (talk) 13:20, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
By RS you mean "reliable sources?" OK, some beliefs can have explanations. But I think many do not. I wasn't responding from a Wikipedia point of view. I guess I was responding from a "gut level" point of view. I don't perceive the posed question as calling for a specific answer, but rather at best a well-reasoned response. The halachot of kashrut I think would be a good example. Of course reliable sources exist in which explanations are offered. I don't think the "reasons" offered are the equivalent of rational explanations. Bus stop (talk) 13:22, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OP Here. I don't like the word contradiction, let's use "absurdity". I'm not interested in whether "absurdities" have an explanation: for example, there is a very good explanation for the "absurdity" that a certain living man (Christ) was at once a normal living man and at once God himself. I don't care if there's an explanation for it - I want to know what the absurdity itself is. So far in this thread no one really mentioned Jewish "absurdities" (or Christian "absurdities", for that matter). I don't want straw-man "absurdities" that nobodoy really believes. (That a priest/minister/rabbi etc will never mention in the same sentence).
I'm not intrested in "plot holes" that are not thought of, but rather "absurdities" that are actively encouraged to be believed in. 92.229.14.166 (talk) 13:32, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Every faith has beliefs that are not amenable to rational interpretation. Christianity, because of its particular historical path, has had a lot of philosophers trying to rationalize its irrationalities (that's fairly unique - I can't think of another faith, off hand, that has put as much effort into explaining its own inner irregularities as Christianity has). Judaism largely doesn't do it: either you're in the camp that believes its tenets or you're not, and there's not a lot of debate between the camps over ontological or epistemological concerns. --Ludwigs213:35, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To build on that excellent answer, Judaism has always placed more weight on action than belief. But you may find Maimonides' 13 Principles of Faith an interesting read. Bear in mind it arrived pretty recently in Jewish history - less than 1,000 years ago - and against a historical background of pressure from Islam and Christianity. --Dweller (talk) 13:43, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The OP says that it is "easy to believe" that "Jesus" is "100% Godly" and "100% human." I don't find that "easy to believe" at all. Therefore I don't understand the question. Bus stop (talk) 13:40, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I guess no one should ever introduce you to the wave/particle duality of light, lest your head explode. Seriously: light is at once a hundred percent a wave, and if you test it as such (refracting off corners and shit, interfering it with itself) you'll see that it is 100% an electromagnetic continuous wave. It is at once 100% a particle, and if you test it for whether it behaves in a fully particulate way, for example, being blasted off in individual, discrete photons, you will find that it is. Being asked to accept that something is a hundred percent discrete and a hundred percent continuous is no more "absurd" than the statement about man and God. So, to phrase the question in a way you can understand: does Judaism include anything like the wave/particle duality, wherein one thing is simultaneously two, mutually exclusive, things? `92.229.14.166 (talk) 14:03, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Jesus died. But many people died. And many people died on a cross -- it had no significance prior to Jesus. Why do we care about Jesus? So Christianity maintains that he's God -- that God died. Now that's certainly significant -- but what exactly is that? How can God die? -- it's an intrinsic contradiction! So he has to be a man so that he can die but God so that it matters. What's more, Jesus is the son of God, but he's also God. Isn't the definition of God that he is infinite? So if the father is God and he's infinite, then what worthwhile portion does the son fulfill? And if the son is necessary, the father is clearly not infinite. And the entire thing vice versa. As explained above, such nonsensical contradictions are not present because Judaism maintains itself to be completely in touch with reality. And then there's transubstantiation. And there may be many more, but I'm not nearly a Christian scholar. But none of these types of cyclical dark paths exist in Judaism. DRosenbach(Talk | Contribs)17:04, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why do you suppose they invented the concept of the "Trinity"? Also, a lot of false messiahs popped up and were rubbed out. This story turned out differently somehow. That doesn't prove Jesus is the Messiah. But there was apparently something special about Jesus. Either that, or he just had a good agent. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 02:18, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose they invented the concept of the Trinity because I do not sense that it is information derived from God. The concept of the Trinity was advanced for all Christians as part of the Nicean creed by Constantine, then a pagan. And I didn't promote anything as evidence of Jesus' Messiahhood. If anything, history is evidence that he is not the Messiah, as anything claimed by Christian scholars as fulfillment of Messianic tradition was either penciled in afterward (coming on a donkey, etc.) or patently missing (Davidic lineage, swords into plowshares, etc.) DRosenbach(Talk | Contribs)02:30, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Heh, that's pretty clever. However, someday we'll have a better scientific understanding of light; the same is not true for Jesus. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:02, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Based on your definition that the religion instructs people to simultaneously believe that something is two different contradictory things, it's hard to come up with anything. As explained above, this may be because Judaism is more interested in people doing stuff the right way than believing stuff the right way. --Dweller (talk) 14:26, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, are there any simultaneous "prescriptions and proscriptions"? Are you asked to do A and to do B as well, whereas the two are plainly contradictory? 92.229.14.166 (talk) 14:46, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Famously, Jews are commanded to keep the 613 Mitzvot. That's impossible. To give a few examples, you need to be a man and a woman, simultaneously a Cohen, Levite and Israelite etc. But I suspect that falls into what you described above as a "plot hole". Similarly, Henry VIII's canon lawyers had fun with seemingly contradictory laws about not sleeping with your brother's wife and the instruction to marry your dead brother's widow, but even a child could perceive the reconciliation between the two.
Your examples are irrelevant. It's like asking how cops can be employed to maintain highway speeds and also instructed to violate this very law that they are bidden to protect. There's no contradiction involved, and there's similarly no contradiction involved when Judaism maintains a hierarchy of regulatory protocols such that A is obligatory and B is prohibited and a clash between A and B yields a necessary kneeling of one before the other. Moreover, your strawman comment about each individual being obligated in 613 commandments -- it's just not a proposition, so there's no need to refute it. DRosenbach(Talk | Contribs)16:50, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The answers above don't seem to address the actual OP question. Here's an idea that is closer (though perhaps not all there): One of the central narratives in Judaism is God's promise to Abraham and the patriarchs that he will be faithful to them and bless them and make their descendants numerous and prosperous. This narrative is central to the Torah, but is presented simultaneously with the narrative of the Hebrew nation as a "remnant" of survivors. Several times in the Hebrew Scriptures (and many times in history since then), the Jews are almost completely wiped out. Often in the Bible these events are said to be caused by God. So the Jews are God's favored blessed nation who will prosper with God's help, and at the same time they are constantly being decimated by foreign powers. These two narratives would seem to be in conflict, but the tension between them is one that Jews embrace rather than flee from. Staecker (talk) 12:19, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There were a few different covenants, and some did indeed require Israel's faithfulness. Not all of them did. In particular God's promises to Abraham were unconditional: Gen 12. Staecker (talk) 21:01, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK- now you're talking about Christian theology. I was answering a question about Judaism and Jewish theology and world-view. In Judaism, the "natural Jews" are the only Jews and they have not "disqualified themselves" from God's covenants. Staecker (talk) 01:02, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OR, but, I think the most likely route would have been by sea, which would take far less time than having to cross the Alps and then the mountainous regions in the Balkans. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK)13:24, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There were a few routes. You could go by sea, say from Bari or Messina or some other port, and avoid most other countries, although there might be a stopover in some of the Greek islands like Crete or Rhodes, and maybe also Cyprus. This, of course, was much easier when all the islands along the way were crusader or Venetian possessions (in the thirteenth century and later). I think the sea route only took a few weeks in the best weather (or a few months in the worst). It was only a day from Cyprus to the mainland, anyway. But travelling by sea was proverbially dangerous; there were pirates, storms, shipwrecks, and Egypt usually had a capable navy. The land route took much longer, naturally. You could cross the Adriatic from Bari in Italy to Antivari or Dyrrhachium, then along the Via Egnatia to Constantinople, which, depending on the time period, would usually take you through strictly Byzantine territory, but was sometimes Hungarian or Serbian or Bulgarian, and for awhile that area was also ruled by crusaders or Venetians. The route from Constantinople to Jerusalem would go through Byzantine Anatolia until the late eleventh century, but after that Anatolia was controlled by the Seljuk Turks and later the Ottomans. Southeastern Anatolia also had an Armenian kingdom along the route in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, and during that time the rest of the Mediterranean coast, Antioch to Jerusalem, was mostly part of various crusader states. Before the twelfth century, it was ruled by the Abbasid Caliphate or the Seljuk Turks (sometimes as clients of the Abbasids, sometimes not), and Jerusalem itself passed between the Abbasids/Seljuks and the Fatimid Caliphate in Egypt. The Ayyubid and Mamluk dynasties in Egypt usually controlled Jerusalem from the thirteenth century onwards, and Christian pilgrims were usually allowed to go there, but not always. During the worst periods of warfare between the Ayyubids, Mamluks, crusaders, and Mongols, travelling there was extremely dangerous and sometimes did not happen at all. In the fourteenth century the whole coast was controlled by Mamluk Egypt and it was much safer, and as far as I know the Mamluks (and the Ottomans, in the sixteenth century and after) were generally tolerant of pilgrims. Anyway, travelling that route might take all year, certainly many months at least. One other route would involve no sea travel at all, by walking north from Rome around the Adriatic, then southeast through Hungary/Serbia/Bulgaria/Byzantine territory to Constantinople, and the rest is the same as above. That would add another month or two to the trip. You can check the routes of various medieval travellers who went to Jerusalem. Early pilgrims like Egeria, the author of the Itinerarium Burdigalense, and the German pilgrims of 1064/1065, although they didn't start from Rome, went in that general direction. Various contingents of the First Crusade went on these various routes (as did other crusades, the Seventh for example). Marco Polo also went by sea to Acre (although I don't think he ever went to Jerusalem). The Muslim Ibn Jubayr went by sea from Spain, although Mecca of course was his goal. I would recommend "Early Travels in Palestine", a nineteenth-century collection of pilgrimage accounts by Thomas Wright, as well as the more recent "Jerusalem Pilgrimage: 1099-1185" by John Wilkinson et al., and "Four Paths to Jerusalem" by Hunt Janin for more info. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:28, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A tighter definition of period may well help, as Adam suggests. Arguably, the "Middle Ages" stretch for about 1000 years. While technology has obviously changed faster of late, it is an interesting parallel for you to think about how someone would do that journey today (2010) and how they would have done it in the year 1010. Between c.500 and c.1500 (to take one definition that I don't like, but let's just make it easy with round numbers), the technology changed much less, but the relative safety or insecurity of different routes would have varied enormously.
Other points worthy of asking - what religion/ethnicity is your traveller? how wealthy? what sex? what is the purpose of their trip? All will play a part in the answer. --Dweller (talk) 14:05, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There's an interesting map from the German wikipedia article on the First Crusade [1]. Three of the five armies crossed the Adriatic Sea to enter the Byzantine Empire at Epirus. Other than that, all armies took land routes. Sleigh (talk) 05:17, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, embarking an entire army (and its warhorses, pack animals and other supplies) on ships is an altogether different question from a single traveller. Nonetheless, the land route would have had certain pros, as well as certain cons, as discussed above. Besides which, if I remember my First Crusade texts (which I probably don't) there was a strong element of trying to impress the Emperor/cajole him into supporting the project, which having the armies at his gate would certainly support. --Dweller (talk) 15:50, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, all the resources of a port would be taken up transporting a whole army (even the tiniest fishing boats). In Constantinople they probably had some sort of ferry industry to get people across the Bosporus. As far as I remember the problem in Constantinople was not transportation (as it was for the Fourth Crusade when Venice basically disrupted their entire economy to build a fleet), but accommodation and food for an unruly mob of tens of thousands of people, many of whom were not professional solders. The emperor had asked the west for military support, but he didn't quite expect the crowd that showed up. The first group was sent across into Asia pretty quickly, so they probably had a lot of boats. The crusaders did want the emperor to join them, and that's partly why he was so eager to get rid of them. He did send some support, but they assumed he had abandoned them by the time they got to Antioch. (It's a little hard to tell what the emperor's motivations were, since the crusader sources are heavily anti-Byzantine.) Adam Bishop (talk) 00:07, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It does, but Anna was only about 14 at the time, and didn't write anything down until many decades later. Still, it's a pretty good source, considering it's the only Greek one. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:49, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Vellum
In the medieval period, was vellum usually manufactured by tanners, who more commonly made leather goods, or was it more a specialty process and had its own tradesmen specifically to make it? I suppose it might vary from place to place, but just as a general rule in 13th C England. Googlemeister (talk) 13:51, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't my specialty (and I should really ask the people I know who do specialize in this), but it does depend on when and where. Monasteries originally produced their own, since they owned so much land and had plenty of cows and sheep to use, and monks were the only ones writing anything anyway. It was a specialized process but the monks did it themselves. If you're talking about thirteenth-century London, then there probably was a special guild for that sort of thing, and eventually even monasteries bought parchment from elsewhere. I'm not sure where specialized bookmakers got their material though. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:16, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, our article isn't very good yet, you'll find the answer in a few places there. It refers to the attack on the Israelites by the Amalekites, described in Exodus. It's deemed both cowardly (they attacked the weakest first) and as a theological challenge against God, coming, as it did, immediately after the crossing of the Red Sea, when Pharaoh's armies were destroyed. Oh, and incidentally, (hoping to be helpful, not merely pedantic) the singular of mitzvot is mitzva (or mitzvah - take your pick when it comes to transliteration styles). --Dweller (talk) 15:47, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The historical nugget seems to be that in the immediate pre-monarchy period, the Amalekites lived to the south of Judea, and in various ways were in direct competition with the Israelites and/or generally allied to the enemies of the Israelites... AnonMoos (talk) 17:00, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
However, the historical reality of Amalekite-Israelite antagonism which led to the story seems to be that in the immediate pre-monarchy period, the Amalekites lived to the south of Judea, and in various ways were in direct competition with the Israelites and/or generally allied to the enemies of the Israelites. AnonMoos (talk) 05:43, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
AnonMoos, that explanation is true of many other tribes - Philistines, Edomites, Ammonites, Grizzites, Jebusites to name but a few, none of whom are subject to the same astonishing laws as the Amalekites. --Dweller (talk) 18:29, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It can't be known for sure, but there are a number of possible factors which might explain the difference -- such as that the Ammonites and Edomites were far enough away for most Israelites to be able to ignore them when there wasn't an actual war on; the Jebusites only had one city, and were apparently decisively defeated with a single attack when the time came, etc. The Philistines were certainly strong enemies of the Israelites, but they had a kind of different way of life than the Israelites, with more focus on maritime and coastal trade and less focus on dispersed hill-country agriculture. It may be significant that the tribe of Simeon, which originally seemed to be the leading Israelite tribe, but later on lost its political autonomy and almost seemed to vanish, had its tribal territory directly facing the Amalekites... AnonMoos (talk) 19:08, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The first mention of the concept of "the destruction of Amalek" is at the end of B'shalach (Ex 17:14), immediately after Amalek attacks the Israelites on their way out of Egypt -- by proximity, it's thus evident that our contention with Amalek stems from a time prior to the settlement of Canaan. The forefather of the nation of Amalek, Amalek himself, was the grandson of Esau, and the metaphysical destruction of Esau through Amalek can be thought of as the fight between good and evil for all time. So one can take the position that their existence and their "mission" is divinely ordained. From another perspective, R' Hershel Schacter (YU) has been quoted as saying that there is an opinion that Amalek refers not to a specific nation but to the arch enemy of Israel. In turn, the Nazis and radical Islam can be said to be Amalek, even though the latter originated from Ishmael, Mr. Amalek himself's grandfather's uncle. DRosenbach(Talk | Contribs)23:13, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, could you expand on, or provide a link for, "the metaphysical destruction of Esau through Amalek can be thought of as the fight between good and evil for all time"? I don't quite follow. Esau never came across as anything close to evil in my reading of Genesis, just rather hard-done-by and amazingly forgiving of Jacob. I always felt bad for him. Is there some tradition, or additional text, in which Esau is evil? 86.164.66.83 (talk) 15:14, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
DRosenbach -- If you're historically-minded, it would generally seem more likely that the mention of Amlekites in the Exodus account was inserted because the Israelites of the early monarchy period or immediate pre-monarchy period hated the Amalekites for other reasons, rather than that the Israelites of that period hated the Amalekites because of an authentic memory of an Exodus atrocity... AnonMoos (talk) 05:48, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's an interesting question. The only other place I've seen this happen is related to terrorist attacks, but that is because there is a specific U.S. law which allows this to happen. As this Congressional Research Service report explains: "Ordinarily, foreign States, including their agencies and instrumentalities, may not be sued in U.S. courts unless they waive their sovereign immunity or an exception under the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act (FSIA) (28 U.S.C. §§ 1602 et seq.) applies. The FSIA provides a list of circumstances where U.S. federal courts will not recognize foreign sovereign immunity. In these circumstances, U.S. courts may exercise jurisdiction over a dispute and treat a foreign state as if it were a private entity. It does not establish liability or a cause of action; it merely removes foreign sovereign immunity as a defense to the courts’ jurisdiction." However our article on FSIA makes pretty clear that this is not the first time that states have been sued as a result of artwork seized during the Nazi era — see Republic of Austria v. Altmann. Looking at FSIA's exceptions directly, my guess is that this falls under "property taken in violation of international law," but I am no lawyer. --Mr.98 (talk) 19:40, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That exception only applies if the property is involved in commercial activity by the foreign state within the US, so it doesn't seem to apply. I don't see any exception that looks like it applies to me. Even if the court does claim jurisdiction, I don't see how it can enforce any rulings anyway. --Tango (talk) 19:59, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The CRS article discusses enforcement options, which are indeed very weak. (As probably they should be—forcing other countries to recognize laws in ones domestic jurisdictions is problematic in terms of sovereignty, and trying to enforce rulings like this through diplomatic means seems like a division of powers problem... the judicial branch generally does not make foreign policy.) Anyway, it would seem that whatever Austria v. Altmann used would be sufficient, exception-wise. --Mr.98 (talk) 20:24, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's different, though. The ECHR only has nation states as defendants and those are nation states that have signed up for it. And I don't think its rulings are enforceable, either. --Tango (talk) 21:39, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I never said it wasn't different from the specific US case, but it's covered by the formulation of the OP's original question: it is possible to sue a country. I don't know if there is some obligatory mechanism that would punish a state that doesn't respect the ECHR's rulings, but in practice they generally are respected, at least by EU members, as far as I know (Bulgaria hasn't been able to get away with it, at any rate, and we would have if we could). By the way, there's a broadly similar (yet, in another sense, reverse) case at this very moment: the country's ex-monarch Simeon Saxe-Coburg-Gotha is suing Bulgaria for refusing to hand over to him some property that used to belong to the Crown but was confiscated (or, from the state's viewpoint, retained) by the new republican (and communist) government after WW2. Indeed, I wonder why the Herzog heirs chose to sue Hungary at a US court instead of the ECHR, Hungary being a EU member.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 15:15, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, I remember that ad campaign! Good question. Although I have no direct knowledge of this, according to the article itself, Coleco declared bankruptcy 3 years later, and the offer was to small children; so I'm going to suggest the answer is "they paid none of the scholarships". Comet Tuttle (talk) 06:31, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Josephus reference to James brother of Jesus
In the first paragraph of the article Josephus on Jesus it states - "The second passage mentions James as the brother of Jesus (who was called Christ), possibly James the Just. Most scholars consider this passage genuine." and cites - Louis H. Feldman, "Josephus" Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 3, pp. 990. I hoped to find this book on Google Books in order to verify exactly what Feldman has to say, and how he came to a conclusion that merits the assertion in this article. Unfortunately Volume 3 does not appear to be online (and I don't think the volumes that are online have a preview facility anyway). So I cannot make this verification. I would like confirmation that the cited page supports the assertion made in this article. So would it be possible for someone to track down this book and insert the relevant quote either into the body of the article, into the references section or into the relevant talk page? I have found a few references to the same source on the websites of various Christian apologists which quote variations of the phrase "almost universally acknowledged.", but I would like to know the context of this phrase and how this 'near universal acknowledgement' was determined. 87.194.131.188 (talk) 22:31, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid I can't help you with the book, but I can say that, contrary to these claims of "almost universally acknowledged" authenticity, my past reading around this subject suggests that a substantial proportion of scholars in the relevant fields think the passage is probably at least partially a later insertion, most likely by a Christian copyist who genuinely thought that an ambiguous reference must be to 'the' James or Jesus, and added a marginal or interlinear explanatory gloss that was later taken to be Josephus's original words - such accidental incorporations are not uncommon from the era when all writings had to be hand copied. James and Jesus were of course very common names in 1st-century Palestine. If I can recall specific references for this viewpoint in the near future, I'll come back to add them, but it's midnight and my brain is approaching shut-down mode :-) . 87.81.230.195 (talk) 23:01, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There are actually two separate passages in Josephus; everybody agrees that one has been subsequently elaborated by Christians; however 87.194.131.188 was referring to the other passage, which is a brief unelaborated passing mention embedded in a narrative, and therefore doesn't raise any particular suspicions on textual grounds. AnonMoos (talk) 05:40, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Per wp:rs, the reporting of the majority position is sound. Feldman is a reliable source and reputable scholar, and he is not alone in his consensus statement.
Feldman in ABD
"The passage about the death of James the brother of Jesus (Ant 20.9.1) has been regarded as authentic by almost all scholars, since the language is thoroughly Josephan; yet it sharply diverges from the eulogy of the high priest Ananus, as found in JW 4.5.2 §319–20."
"Moreover, the fact that Josephus refers to Jesus in his reference to James the brother of “the aforementioned Christ”(Ant 20.9.1 §200)—a passage the authenticity of which has been almost universally acknowledged—indicates that Jesus had been mentioned previously."
Feldman in another source:
"The passage about James (A XX, 197-203) has generally been accepted as authentic." L.H. Feldman, "A selective critical bibliogrpahy of Josephus" in L.H. Feldman and Gohei Hata, Josephus, the Bible, and History. p.434
Other scholars:
"The overwhelming majority of scholars holds that the words "the brother of Jesus called the Christ" are authentic, as is the entire passage in which it is found." Robert E. Van Voorst, Jesus Outside the New Testament: An introduction tot he ancient evidence. p.83
"Though a few scholars have held this passage to be a Christian interpolation, the vast majority have considered it to be authentic." Richard Bauckham, "For what offence was James put to death?" in Eds. Bruce Chilton and Craig A. Evans, James the Just and Christian Origins. p.199
"It is not surprising, therefore, that, in the words of Louis Feldman, "few have doubted the genuiness of this passages on James." Craig A. Evans, Jeuss and his Contemporaries: Comparative studies. p.44.
When did novels start printing "A Novel" on the cover, and is this a requirement either by law or merely a heavily practiced "clarification" in the industry? Novel (the article) hints the practice began around 1760, but I seem to recall suddenly seeing the words "A Novel" appear on more and more hardcovers back in the 1990s, and novels before that don't all seem to say "A Novel" on the covers; I wasn't really paying attention though, I may in fact have just started noticing the phrase back then. – Kerαunoςcopia◁galaxies23:04, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not all novels have "a novel" written on the cover, so it can't be a legal requirement. I expect publishers include it if the title is something that makes it unclear whether it is a work of fiction or non-fiction. You sell your product better if people that want that kind of product can find it. --Tango (talk) 00:30, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's my understanding that lots of novels began as novelettes, in the form of weekly installments in a local/widely distributed newspaper -- Great Expectations is a good example of this type of serial publication. Perhaps the term "a novel" developed as a way of differentiating small, discrete works of literature from those apparently small, apparently discrete works of serialized (long) stories. DRosenbach(Talk | Contribs)03:03, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This may be a regional thing. I'm in the UK, read a lot of novels, and haven't noticed this on more than an occasional cover. Where do you live? --Dweller (talk) 11:28, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not the OP, but I see it frequently here in S. Ontario. FWIW, I think Tango is correct; I don't read much fiction, but my recollection is that it's mostly on stuff either with a title that could be confused with non-fiction or with a title that's very short and therefore ambiguous. "Tango: A Novel" lets you know that the book is a work of fiction and not, say, a documentary about the dance (or the unauthorized biography of a WP editor!). Matt Deres (talk) 14:57, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the responses. I'm in the US. Maybe I've just been seeing more novels with "A Novel" printed on it recently—I've been looking up a few cover images online and I'm not seeing "A Novel" on every single hardcover either. Looks like a clarification thing then. – Kerαunoςcopia◁galaxies16:29, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
They don't. The Irish flag is green-white-orange, and the Italian flag is green-white-red. They are both of the same style of flag, called a vertical Tricolour. That article has a history of that kind of flag design; it dates from the French Revolution. The specific history of the Irish and Italian flags can be found at Flag of Ireland and Flag of Italy. --Jayron3204:49, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This reminds me of an office I used to work in - we were having some sort of multi-cultural celebration and lots of flags were up, with the names of the relevant country with each one. Everything went well until somebody noticed that the Irish flag was now the Hungarian flag..... --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK)17:25, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Most European flags look the same because Europeans suck at flag design. Most of them are just vertical stripes, horizontal stripes, or a cross. Sometimes they put a logo on them, but most of their logos are just a shield, so even some of the ones with logos on them are hard to tell apart. 24.68.50.170 (talk) 18:57, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, that is not true. Flag designs are essentially testimonies of the historical period in which they were created, fashion is always subjective and varies over time. Notably the latest inventions in Europe (like Bosnia and Kosovo flags) are staunchly different from the older more classical style. --Soman (talk) 19:09, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So I guess it's the time periods that sucked at flag design, not the countries. Either way, if your flag is the same as the next country over but with one stripe a different colour or the flag turned sideways, then someone failed at creativity. It was also not a very inclusive choice for people with colourblindness. 24.68.50.170 (talk) 19:21, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, if you ever get a chance to design the flag of your country, stay away from using green, which is a pretty reliable indicator of a second-rate nation. A few countries have managed to be decent places even though there's green on their flag, but don't assume that your country could overcome the handicap. 71.72.155.232 (talk) 02:15, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would guess that that relationship is spurious. Countries that have green on their flags tend to not do well because green is one of the Pan-African colours and is sacred is Islam; in turn, African and Islamic countries are poorer for, let's say, historical reasons. 142.104.55.7 (talk) 03:43, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Green functioned quite well for say Saudi Arabia. Libya is by African standards a very wealthy country, I think second only to South Africa. Red-white-and-blue didn't really ensure wealth and progress for Liberia, on the other hand. --Soman (talk) 15:57, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Further evidence that there is something to this theory about countries with green in their flags: In 1984 Australia declared its/her national colours to be green and gold. But did we immediately, or ever, set out to incorporate these colours into our national flag, as might seem the obvious thing to do? No way. And now, finally, I understand why not. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 00:47, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, there are stats about colors on flags by decade somewhere on the FOTW site; the main conclusion seems to be that over the last 50+ years since decolonization started to take hold, the proportion of flags with blue has gone down, while the proportion of flags with black has gone up... AnonMoos (talk) 04:57, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't like Monaco's flag, it's a bit too boring, although Belize is worse. I agree with you about British Columbia's flag. The good Canadian provincial flags are Quebec, Saskatchewan, Newfoundland and Labrador, and all three territories. I should also point out that several U.S. state flags look more like corporate logos for the state rather than proper flags. 24.68.50.170 (talk) 04:37, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Vexillologists hate all "seal-on-a-bedsheet" flags, and a considerable number of U.S. state flags fall under that category... AnonMoos (talk) 22:03, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That comment led me to review the flags of the U.S. states, and I see what the Vexillologists mean. Then I was curious about the thin blue strip in the flag of Tennessee, and went to the article to find out what it signified. The article quotes Colonel Reeves, the flag's designer: "The final blue bar relieves the sameness of the crimson field and prevents the flag from showing too much crimson when hanging limp." I love Wikipedia! ---Sluzzelintalk22:12, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The state of Washington's flag is worse than the arms-on-colour flags, but not as bad as state of Georgia 2001–2003 (WOW, that one is bad). Also, what's up with Maryland's flag? It's not too bad, but it certainly draws attention to itself. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 11:42, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What, you mean to say that you can't tell the Flag of Slovakia and the Flag of Slovenia apart?? The French vertical tricolor was an example for many countries in central and southern Europe, the Danish Dannebrog was an example for most Scandinavian flags, and the horizontal tricolor of the Netherlands influenced the German flag and (through the Russian horizontal tricolor) the flags of many Slavic countries. However, the flags of Switzerland, Greece, Czech(oslovakia) and the United Kingdom do definitely depart from basic horizontal or vertical bicolors/tricolors or Nordic crossses... AnonMoos (talk) 19:18, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Tricolors are often a reflection of 19th-century nationalists' and republicans' (anti-monarchists') identification with the French First Republic and the earlier Dutch Republic. Many crosses originated with Crusader flags. The flag reference books compiled by Whitney Smith (Flags through the Ages and Around the World, 1975) and Alfred Znamierowski (The World Encyclopedia of Flags, 1999, 2006) both have individual pages devoted to themes such as the star, the cross or the tricolor, and how they spread to different flag designs. ¶ As for any similarity between European flags, I think there's just as much (if not more) similarity among Latin American flags and among African flags (partly reflecting Pan-American or Pan-African histories and hopes). It's definitely true of Arabian and North African flags, inspired by Arab nationalism, i.e. the hope that the Arabs would one day form a single powerful nation with a single flag (cf. the United Arab Republic). —— Shakescene (talk) 19:38, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To go back to the original question of the OP: The difference between the Italian flag and the flag of the Irish Republic. The Italian flag (as far as I know) has the colours: Ivy Green, White, and Venetian Red. The Irish Flag: Deep Green, White, and Orange. The Irish Flag has strict law regarding its formation and use. See: Flag of Ireland, Flag of Italy. To be precise: The Irish Flag: Green 347, White "safe", Orange 151. Italian Flag: Fern Green, Bright White, Flame Scarlet. MacOfJesus (talk) 01:11, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Book of Ezra Chapter 10: 15 says, "Only Jonathan the son of Asahel and Jahzeiah the son of Tikvah stood up against this matter; and Meshullam and Shabbethai the Levite helped them.” Were the first two guys Kohanim? --Ghostexorcist (talk) 04:58, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is WP:OR, but I don't think so. The text is usually quite careful to give people their honour when they are Cohanim and Leviim - see Shabbethai in the same verse and Ezra himself in the verse that follows (although it often skips Ezra, for obvious reasons). Rashi is no help - I've currently no access to any other commentators, but I wouldn't really expect them to help either. --Dweller (talk) 11:26, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm writing a review for a book that theorizes the Kaifeng Jews are descended from a group of disgruntled "priests, nobles and levites" who disagreed withe Ezra's divorce proclamation and headed east. My review already punches holes in several of the author's other theories, I just want to make sure I am covering all of the bases. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 23:46, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder how either side could be substantiated when the biblical comment is made so flippantly and no significance to who they were is really mentioned. DRosenbach(Talk | Contribs)02:47, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In short, the inscriptions left by the Jews mentions Ezra last in a long line of prophets and that they still knelt during prayer as late as the 17th century. As I mentioned above, the author theorizes the group who disagreed with Ezra left for the east. Since kneeling was prohibited by Jewish sages sometime after the fall of the Second Temple, the author reasons the group who parted with Ezra brought this practice with them to the east. This is total conjecture on the author's part. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 03:55, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That hypothesis seems quite implausible for a number of reasons, including that there was no real direct or semi-direct trade/travel route between the Mediterranean and and Far East until Hellenistic times. To put it another way, why would there have been Judaism in China before there was Buddhism in China?? Ezra being last on the list could reflect that he's the last prominent authoritative religious figure (though not really a "prophet") mentioned in the historical narrative of the Hebrew Bible... AnonMoos (talk) 05:53, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The stone inscriptions erected by the Jews state their religion was transmitted from India and the first ancestors settled in China during the Han Dynasty (which was during the Hellenistic period). However, I, like other past researchers, believe this was a way of ingratiating themselves with the Chinese by claiming an erroneous ancient settlement. It was sort of their way of saying: "We are just as Chinese as you are!" Most scholars believe they actually settled in China during the Song Dynasty.
The author of the book I am reviewing suffered heavily from Confirmation Bias during his research because he only sought out info that supported his thesis. For instance, he quoted a passage from a Han general's survey report that mentioned people with deep-set eyes, large noses, and (distinguished) headdress who raised grapes and horses in Ferghana. Because of their facial features, the author believed these were Jews. On the other hand, I did research into this report and found out that it was actually describing the Dayuan, who were of Greco-Bactrian descent.
I agree with your reason for why the Jews listed Ezra last in the inscriptions. You may be aware of how some Jews refer to Ezra as the "Father of Judaism" for his efforts in reviving Judaism after the exile. Even the stone inscriptions refer to him as the "Patriarch of the Correct Religion".--Ghostexorcist (talk) 23:16, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The date of Pope John Paul XXIII apology prayer for the Jewish people.
I have been searching the Internet with Google for several days trying to find the date on which Pope John Paul XXIII issued an apology prayer for the Jewish people.
Here is the prayer that I copied from a reference somewhere. It is late and I cannot remember or research the URL of the source at this moment. I am hoping someone is familar enough with the prayer that the URL is not needed. If it is needed I will do the research for it tomorrow and edit this question. I am sure the prayer itself is in the public domain and not copyrighted to anyone.
"The mark of Cain is stamped upon our foreheads. Across the centuries, our brother Abel has lain in blood which we drew, and shed tears we caused by forgetting Thy love. Forgive us, Lord, for the curse we falsely attributed to their name as Jews. Forgive us for crucifying Thee a second time in their flesh. For we knew not what we did."
I need to know the exact date this prayer was released to the public.
While you're waiting for a forthcoming reply to your particular query (with which I'm unfamiliar), you might pursue readings related to Part Four of Nostra Aetate that came out of the Second Vatican Council, that's highly pertinent to Pope John XXIII's approach to defusing (as opposed to diffusing :-) historical antisemitism in the Catholic Church. -- Deborahjay (talk) 08:40, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
According to The Council of Centers on Jewish-Christian Relations, "The prayer was written by Pope John XXIII shortly before he died. He expressed the hope that it would be read in all Catholic Churches." However, in a footnote by the webmaster of that site, it states, "The prayer attributed above to Pope John XXIII is unattested." That website does not give the exact date of the quote, however. It does give what it claims to be the full text of the prayer:
“We now recognize that for many centuries our eyes were covered with blindness, so that we no longer saw the beauty of Your chosen people and no longer recognized the features of our firstborn brother. We admit that the sign of Cain is on our forehead. For centuries, Abel was lying on the ground in blood and tears because we had forgotten Your love. Forgive the curse that we unjustly pronounced over the name of the Jews. Forgive that we crucified You again in their flesh."
However, the website "Jews, Jesus and the Bible" states "Pope John XXIII prayed the following prayer of repentance, shortly before his death June 3, 1961." (John XXIII actually died on June 3, 1963.) It also gives a slightly different version of the prayer:
“We now recognize that many, many centuries of blindness have covered our eyes so that we no longer see the beauty of Your Chosen People and in their face no longer recognize the features of our first-born brother.
“We realize that the sign of Cain is marked on our forehead. For centuries, Abel was lying in blood and tears because we forgot Your love. Forgive us the damnation we pronounced unjustly upon the name of the Jews.
“Forgive us for having crucified You a second time in their flesh. For we knew not what we were doing.”
It appears that there is some uncertainty over the exact wording (although if it was originally in Italian or Latin, translation might account for the discrepancy). And if he said it shortly before he died, that would put it in the first half of 1963.
There is a church in Paris, on Rue Saint Honoré called Église Saint-Roch. When walking inside, there is the Tetragrammaton behind the main altar. It is surrounded by stained glass which seems to have the Star of David in each one. When walking further behind, there are two Menorahs, and between them there is the ark of the covenant (with Catholic symbols engraved in it). Anyone else noticed this? I'm sure it could all be coincidence, as I've seen all of these things separately in other Churches, however this just seems like its too much. I tried asking the priest, but he either didn't understand me, or was reluctant to answer me. Is there a good explanation? Could they be Marranos? -Solid Reign (talk) 08:34, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Tetragrammaton was a common church decoration in the 16th-19th centuries (see a lot of photos at commons:Category:Tetragrammaton, and a six-pointed star of two triangles can be called the "star of creation" or "Creator's star" in a Christian context. Not sure about an apparent heavy concentration of Jewish symbols in a church, though... AnonMoos (talk) 09:21, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Some of these older churches had people "sponsor" artwork. Is it possible that one or more of the sponsors was Jewish and simply included a few aspects of Judaism in the artwork he requested? Googlemeister (talk) 12:53, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Ark of the Covenant is considered lost by most people of the Abrahamic religions.
I think that the simplest explanation is that the use of Jewish imagery is just an acknowledgement of Christianity's Jewish heritage. Paul (Stansifer)13:19, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hm.. I doubt it. It was always my understanding that Christianity wasn't proud of its Jewish heritage until Pope John Paul II called Jews the elder brothers of Christians. Or at least until the formation of Israel. I could be wrong though. -212.194.13.84 (talk) 07:32, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Where did you get the idea that Christianity wasn't proud of its Jewish heritage until the formation of Israel? It seems a strange connection in my own experience, but obviously your experience includes something that makes this look likely. 86.164.66.83 (talk) 15:10, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I always understood Jewish/Christian relations to be pretty bad until recently. A lot of things happened in that time, the holocaust had just ended and had recently become public knowledge, Christian Zionism gained popularity, and the Dead Sea Scrolls were found right around its formation. Since the Dead Sea Scrolls mention a lot of the same things that Jesus did (and many were from before he lived), it helped the Church embrace its Jewish heritage. So it wasn't just the formation of Israel that affected the relationship. After that, things started to change, with the Second Vatican Council, and John Paul II. It's just my impression, though. Nothing too researched. -Solid Reign (talk) 20:21, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That makes sense. I always got the sense that, while Jewish/Christian relations were pretty bad, that didn't actually prevent Christian churches from celebrating their Jewish heritage. That the prevailing view would hold that Jews after Jesus showed up were, in some way, culpable or abandoned, whereas Jews before Jesus showed up were part of God's chosen people, living out his plan. So a church would happily include references to and imagery from Judaism as represented in the Bible, while simultaneously saying and doing horrible things to and about current Jews. 86.164.66.83 (talk) 21:22, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is a book called the Portable Seminary that in essence claims to be seminary in one book - is this the only book of its kind, or are there others like this. If there have been other book that claim to be all of seminary in one book; what are their titles? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.174.137.73 (talk) 09:01, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you look at the reviews on Amazon, they stress that the book claims to be an overview of seminary stuff, not the equivalent of going to seminary. In particular, it's hard to imagine anyone suggesting that you can have a good understanding of the subject of Christian theology without reading at least one other book. (But even people who have a sola scriptura attitude recognize the necessity of hearing from authority figures; it's just that they think the Bible is the final authority.) Paul (Stansifer)18:46, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am trying to find information about a Soviet officer who was supose to press "The Button" of a ICBM launcer when his computer, wrongfully, told him the US launched a first strike against the USSR. He dint do it and ended up saving alot of lives. I read it on wikipedia a long time ago. But I cant find it anymore. Anyone care to help me out?--SelfQ (talk) 15:39, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I couldn't find a noticeboard to ask about images, so I thought I'd try here.
The photo to the right has "1934/III-2/2" typed on it. What does this mean? In particular, does it mean the photo was taken or published in 1934? The uploader is claiming they took the photo for the Greek Wikipedia, so if "1934" is a year then I would strongly doubt it. -kotra (talk) 17:49, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
TinEye found two copies of this image elsewhere on the web. This site claims the sculpture is on display at the Cyprus Archaeological Museum in Nicosia, so I am guessing that it's a museum photograph and they put that tag there while taking the photo, for their cataloging purposes. It's pretty clear the editor did not take that picture himself. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:30, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A date at the beginning of a museum's cataloguing designation usually indicates the date the item was accessioned, so in this case it wouldn't necessarily indicate the date the photo was taken. Deor (talk) 20:56, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, both! If the conclusion is that the photo was taken as part of a museum's cataloguing, I think we can assume the uploader did not take it for the Greek Wikipedia as he or she claimed. Thanks for your help! -kotra (talk) 21:09, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What type of plant?
What type of plant is this of the leaves of the handbag?
These appear to be simple, stylized leaves executed in raw-edge machine applique. Have you considered asking the Flickr user who posted the photo, by means of a comment? -- Deborahjay (talk) 20:54, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In comparison to humans appearing in the pictures, they generally seem a bit taller (1.8-2.1 meters?). However, the most frequently recurring human character (lilla my) is presumed to be short, perhaps also in comparison with other humans. --Soman (talk) 20:58, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
...and I think they are an entire species, there's at least four in the family, but I think the books feature distant relatives on visits etc. now and then. --Soman (talk) 20:59, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see My as a human. I think she belongs to a species (or is it a family?) called mys, and likewise Toft is a toft, Whomper is a whomper, and so on. In some places - Tales From Moominvalley does this a bit - Tove Jansson uses the words like species names, as in "a small whomper", and so on. Then again, Snufkin is apparently the child of The Mymble* and The Joxter, so I don't know what species or even family name that rather loose clan go by. There are endless Hemulens. Many of these creatures look almost exactly like humans; others (hemulens and snorks) are hard to tell apart from moomins; others look distinctly like small rodents (creeps, for instance). Some of the creatures clearly stand for personality types - fillyjonks (I'm sure it sometimes appears in the plural) are fussy, paranoid ladies, hemulens are loud, boring sportsmen with no self-awareness. (If they are species, some of the fillyjonks must be male and some of the hemulens female, which certainly isn't how they come across. Perhaps they bud. Who knows.) The Moomins seem more like a family, since I don't recall any other creatures called moomins appearing in the books; they have ancestors, one of whom (if Too-Ticky is reliable) is The Dweller Under The Sink, and is small, silent, and hairy, and simply called "a troll". Other creatures (the silk-monkey) are also small, foolish and live in the wild, like animals, although they still talk a bit. Moomins are sometimes referred to in the books as "small animals". They often appear somewhat small when seen next to plants and wildlife, [2] but perhaps plants grow large in Moominland. I think it is all deliberately ambiguous and moomins have no definite size due to the lack of any objects to compare them to which are definitely from our universe. (I've always been curious where the factories are which make their stoves and handbags and mouth-organs and so forth. Do these objects grow in shops, like the Village Stores which appears in Comet in Moominland? Or is there a dark side to Moominland, a grimy city somewhere, full of miserable working-class animals?) *note: there are two Mymbles, completely morphologically different. 213.122.24.57 (talk) 01:43, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, there never evolved a fan base in the way of Tolkien, who would codify an entirely alternate universe regarding the Moomins. Btw, Snorkfröken has a brother which doesn't have an article in English wikipedia, but in some others (like Swedish). According to Swedish wikipedia (unreferenced though) snorks as distinct but closely related to moomins, the sole substantive difference is that snorks change skin colour when upset. --Soman (talk) 23:43, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's preying on my mind now that some hemulens are obsessive collectors rather than sportsmen, and also that at one point there is a hemulen aunt, so there are female ones alright. This is all completely outside the scope of your question, sorry ... except it makes me more inclined to think that moomin might be a species. 213.122.18.192 (talk) 12:42, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Is it 'hemulen' in the English translations? That's a bit weird. In Swedish the species would be 'hemul', and 'the Hemul' is Hemulen. --Soman (talk) 23:43, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My naive grasp of Swedish makes me think hemulen should be a plural, or you could turn it around and have en hemul, a hemul, but what do I know, very little. Anyway, yes, it's hemulen in English, and it sounds nice that way to me. 81.131.53.162 (talk) 02:31, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In Swedish it would be 'a hemul'='en hemul', 'the hemul'='hemulen', 'hemuls'='hemuler', 'the hemuls'='hemulerna'. --Soman (talk) 05:41, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
138.110, I enjoyed your joke, but usually we use the <small> and </small> tags around jokes to make it clear we're not really continuing the thread. Comet Tuttle (talk) 23:44, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If the Metric System had been invented by Jews, he might have considered moving away from it. Hitler gave us the Volkswagen and also, indirectly, the Interstate Highway System. Even an insane hog finds a nugget once in awhile. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 02:11, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A friend told me about a supposed incidence in 1930s Germany where a all trains and busses in revenue strapped Germany were stopped and passengers without tickets were shot. Can anyone verify this? I haven't been able to find any information regarding it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.136.22.5 (talk) 21:38, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes they were that bad. The Germans organised Łapankas in the Eastern occupied territories after 1939. "Those caught in a łapanka were either taken hostages, arrested, sent to labor camps or concentration camps, or summarily executed." Getting caught without a ticket would be enough to get executed at a nearby prison. But that was during WW II, and the victims were "untermenschen", not ethnic Germans, shooting your own citizens becouse they are travelling without a ticket dosn't make any sense from a moral, economical or any other point of view. 89.72.128.27 (talk) 20:04, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
July 30
Historical Article
From: G. Pellegrini
E-mail: [removed]
Date: Thursday, July 29, 2010
What is the population of the average electoral district in Australia? I assume they are determined roughly based on having equal populations, the same way each electoral division in the USA has roughly the same population. Is this true, and if so, what's the population?
If it's not the case, then how do these divisions get determined?
Do you mean the local "Electoral districts" which are used to elect members of the State legislatures, or the "Electoral divisions" used to elect members of the Australian House of Representatives. There are no figures for this in the articles per se. If you wanted the local districts, they are located under titles like "Electoral districts of (blank)" where "(blank)" is the state name. --Jayron3202:54, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In Bengali Brahmins article Kayasta Bengali Brahmins are not there why?
In "Bengali Brahmins" article "Kayasta Bengali Brahmins" are not there why?
According to your article "Kayasta" article Kayastas are Brahmins and holding dual cast status Brahmin and Kshatriya.
So kindly mention all bengali kayasta peoples name and there surname in the "Bengali Brahmins" Article.
Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.227.130.233 (talk) 03:17, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is not the scope of Wikipedia to list the names of every person who belongs to a particular arbitrary grouping of people. See WP:NOT for a description of the stuff we generally don't put in the articles here. --Jayron3203:31, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I take Jayron's reply to be to your request to include "th[eir] surnames". But if you think there is some more general information for the article and you have reliable independent sources for this information, please add it to the article. --ColinFine (talk) 20:24, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
do people in afganistan or Iraq have the right to kill American soldiers there?
Do people in afganistan or Iraq have the right to kill American soldiers there? I mean because we made war on their country. In general, if you go to war with a country and conquor them, do they have the right to kill you? or only during the war (until you conquor them). if it's only during the war, when does the war officially end, so that it's wrong to kill you after that - how do people know? for example, was the war officially over when Hussein was captured, since he was there emperer? 92.224.207.77 (talk) 10:35, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That is an interesting and hard to answer question. I would certainly grant any of the prisoners in Guantanamo and (formerly) Abu Ghraib the individual right to self-defense, including deadly force. The war in Afghanistan and Iraq is harder to judge. It's not a traditional war between states, in which there is a clear delineation between combatants and non-combatants. Arguably, the current war in Afghanistan is justified by the UN security council resolution. But even then, that puts legal obligations on the allied troops, few of which are strictly observed (or , to be fair, practical in the situation). Violations might again justify individual acts of self-defense. It does not, I think, justify indiscriminate bombings (by either side, again to be fair). Much of the moral ambiguity could be resolved if the West followed its own legal and moral principles, even if inconvenient. But that comes at a cost, both real and politically, that few politicians would be ready to bear. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:25, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In both Iraq and Afghanistan, there are national governments that support the presence of the troops, so there is no automatic right under local law or international law to fight the troops because they aren't officially an invading or occupying force. You could refuse to recognise those national governments, claiming they are puppet governments of an occupying force, but that wouldn't hold up in court since they are courts of that national government. Really, it's an academic question since you only actually have rights that you are able to invoke. --Tango (talk) 12:10, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If that were the case, there would still be an ongoing war and the coalition forces would be invaders. Attacking invading troops is usually legal (under local law, which is the law that would actually be enforced in courts rather than summarily by the troops). --Tango (talk) 13:40, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It most definitely IS relevant. The reason we went into Afghanistan was directly connected to 9/11/01. We didn't "make war on their country", we attacked the Taliban, who were involved in trying to protect the architects of 9/11, some of whom we've caught and some we haven't. As was the reason for invading Iraq (again), though it was on less firm reasoning. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 13:31, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So the people of Afghanistan were responsible for the 9/11 attacks, thats news to me. I wonder if Halliburton were not going to gain millions would they even be in Afghanistan or Iraq. Mo ainm~Talk14:03, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You both pose interesting questions: if a country conquers your country after your country killed five thousand cilians there, do you have the right to kill the soldiers in that country (also if you are a civilian, as many fighters in Afghanistan or Iraq were not regularized soldiers in uniforms). so does a civilian have the same right to kill your soldiers as soldiers would? also did Iraq have the right to produce weapons of mass destruction and scheme to eradicate New York and Washington? I think countries do have the right to produce weapons of mass destruction, if they want, but maybe they lose their right to attack conquering soldiers if they do...92.224.207.77 (talk) 14:20, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Iraq did not have the right to produce weapons of mass destruction, the UN resolutions were pretty clear on that. But Iraq scheming to eradicate NY and Washington - what makes you think they did that? If anything, it has been suggested that the Iraqis actually thought the US supported them. Unilynx (talk) 16:10, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
what about the other part of my question? if you do something the UN forbids, do you still have the right to kill soldiers that invade you? 92.224.207.77 (talk) 16:14, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I was unclear. I meant invoke without facing legal consequences. The insurgents (if caught) face criminal charges. --Tango (talk) 13:40, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Right after 9/11, Bush said we were going to go after the 9/11 conspirators, "and countries that harbor them". The immediate reaction from the Taliban was to complain that we were talking about them. (Apparently they had a guilty conscience.) As far as "the people of Afghanistan" causing 9/11, maybe not directly, but they are the ones who allowed the Taliban to rule their country, so they can't claim total innocence. When you make war on the U.S., you pay the consequences, be it invasion (as with Afghanistan and Iraq), or nuking (as with Japan), or both. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 14:33, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And you were the ones who allowed Bush and Chaney rule yours. All you are short of doing now Bugs is beating your chest a shouting USA USA. Mo ainm~Talk14:38, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and we eventually voted the Republicans out. Did the Afghanis vote the Taliban out? I don't think they even had that opportunity. They preferred to cower in fear. Pearl Harbor and 9/11 were enemy actions, and when someone declares war on you, the idea that they have the "right" to kill your people when you take action against them is ludicrous. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 14:42, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Right, so it would be ludicrous for US soldiers to kill any Afghanis or Iraqis who take action against them. Good to know. Thanks Bugs! 86.164.66.83 (talk) 15:05, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Afghan government was harboring the people who caused 9/11, so whatever disaster that happened to them was due to their own folly. The USA has the right to defend itself. Someone asked me about 9/11, "What if we had done nothing?" We tried "doing nothing" when the terrorists blew up that Marine barracks in the 1980s. "Doing nothing" against them doesn't work. Action has to be taken. As for Iraq, our premise for invading was faulty. But not our premise for invading Afghanistan. The question of whether Afghanis have the "right" to shoot at us silly. Obviously, they have the power to do so. And whether lingering there is in our best interest remains to be seen. But they are not innocent little lambs. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 15:35, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
thank you, I see most of what you're saying. you say "As for Iraq, our premise for invading was faulty. But not our premise for invading Afghanistan". So, does that mean that since the premise was faulty for Iraq, but not Afghanistan, it is silly to suggest that Afghans have the right to kill us. But Iraqis have the right to kill us, right, since we invaded on a wrong premise? Or do you not have the right to kill someone even if they invade your country with a wrong premise? 92.224.207.77 (talk) 16:18, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think the best way to answer the question is to call up your local (in case you live in the US) NRA office and pose the question, if a foreign army (for whatever reason, and with whatever rationale) invaded and seized control of the US, oversaw a re-draft of the US constitution and organized elections to legimize their presence, would it then be acceptable for US citizens to use armed resistance? And there you would get a reasonable answer to the question, from a US rightwing point of view. --Soman (talk) 15:16, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What is implied by "having the right" to kill a soldier or someone else? Is it a moral question, like "Will I be punished in the afterlife for it?" or a present day pragmatic question "Will the judge or jury or appeals court spare me from punishment because of a defense that I had the right under the writings of a prophet/international law/the Geneva Conventions/some constitution/common law/natural law to make war and kill the person?" Regarding the American Revolution, conservative William F. Buckley once said that George Washington and his co-conspirators had every moral right to rebel against their King, but that King had every legal and moral right to hang or shoot George Washington if he had captured him. There was a collaborationist government in France while the French Resistance killed German occupiers in WW2, and there was a Quisling government in Norway when resistors spied for the British. Having a validly elected government or an imposed puppet government has little effect on the moral right to oppose occupiers. An occupying force is not going to tolerate the killing of its soldiers because the insurgents/patriots/terrorists claim a moral right to kill occupiers. The Taliban government provided a sanctuary for the organizers of the 9/11 attacks, and refused to stop providing a base of operations. That seems a valid basis for the country which was attacked on 9/11 to use its military to remove the Taliban from governing Afghanistan. Refusal to stop the use of their country by terrorists on the part of the governing Taliban was effectively a declaration of war by Afghanistan, or at least a declaration of being a failed state which cannot /will not act responsibly toward other countries. That said, it is easier to invade and occupy Afghanistan than to make it a modern democracy with a strong central government. This is especially true when the occupying power is not willing to be ruthless in reprisals, punishment of hostages, and collective punishment in general, like the WW1 Germans were in the Rape of Belgium. Targetting houses where Al Queda personnel are with bombs from drones is a less ruthless form of this than the collective punishment of random people from an area which was popular in the 19th and 20th century. There are many folk tales from around the world about punching a sticky creature made of petroleum, but just getting more entrapped in it the more you fight, with separation, however unrewarding, being the only "victory." This might be like the proposal of George Aiken in 1966 that the US simply declare it had won in Vietnam and pull out. Professor Donald Snow explicitly called for "The Aiken Solution" in Afghanistan, on the grounds that no matter how long the occupying forces stay, no matter how big a "surge" is sent, there can never be a "victory" like the signing of a surrender document by the Japanese government on the battleship Missouri provided a victory in WW2. Edison (talk) 15:16, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Guantanamo? Is that still there? Gosh, I seem to remember a clear election promise, followed by a clear presidential directive, to close it down by the end of 2009. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 00:29, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Love that "Americans weren't too keen on the idea", as though there's something essentially un-American about the proposal. Also, after your last sentence, you forgot to add "...imprisoned without trial". --Viennese Waltztalk 07:55, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And strictly speaking, you don't need to try each POW. And the alternative punishment if they don't want to be called POWs would be summary execution for being a non-uniformed combatant. Googlemeister (talk) 16:07, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To go back to the original question: Does anyone have a right to kill anyone anywhere? How can anyone have a right to kill anyone? Even in a self-defence situation, usually depending on the legisiative area, it is only sufficient force to despel the attack not anything over and above that. All troops are there at the invitation of the legitimate authority, and acting within that mandate, (Afghanistan). MacOfJesus (talk) 22:44, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's a lot of cigars, but I have a vague recollection that he was known for chewing on them as much as smoking them. I could be wrong. But it's hard to imagine living to the ripe old age he did without getting any lung ailments, if he actually smoked that many cigars in one day. (I see that he apparently died from a series of strokes, which can be connected with tobacco - but he did live to be 90.) ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 14:38, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Tobacco usage is not a simple A->B form of causation with lung ailments. It's probabilistic — it increases risk factors in biologically complicated ways. Which is all to say that one cannot form conclusions about whether it does/does not do anything based on individual cases, but on groups, populations. It's perfectly plausible that Churchill could have smoked like a chimney and not had any problems; some individuals just don't manifest any. That doesn't establish anything about the safety of cigars, though. I only point this out because the simple causation model (which has understandable public health appeal) leads a lot of people to say, "well, I've heard of someone who doesn't fit into that, thus it must be wrong," but this is a very incorrect way of thinking about it. Better to emphasize the risk factor approach from the beginning, because it contains within it an understanding of how to go about getting correct information from the beginning.--Mr.98 (talk) 14:47, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
People often smoke cigars without actually inhaling the smoke, you just let it fill your mouth and then blow it out. That means your lungs are usually ok. There are still risks from the nicotine and from mouth and throat cancers, though. Cigar#Health effects discusses this a little. --Tango (talk) 14:50, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, some more references Michael Paterson's "Winston Churchill: Personal Accounts of the Great Leader at War" (David & Charles, 2005) states that he "did not smoke more than eight or ten cigars a day" (p23), but one page earlier: "It has been estimated that he went through cigars at the rate of 4,000 a year and that his lifelong total was therefore a quarter of a million".
Encyclopedia of Smoking and Tobacco (Arlene B. Hirschfelder, Oryx Press, 1999, p66): "He smoked at least 10 cigars a day, roughly 3000 per year, amounting to over a quarter of a million over his lifetime"
Isaac Frederick Marcosson wrote that Churchill smoked nine cigars a day, adding that "he smokes only half of each cigar as he is constantly talking and having to relight it. The cigar butts are carefully collected into a tin box and are given to the head gardener for his pipe." (Marcosson, Before I Forget: A Pilgrimage to the Past, Dodd, Mead, 1959, p177).
I couldn't find out what these estimates are based on, or who was counting. Nor could I find anything about his smoking habits in 1944 significantly differing from other years. ---Sluzzelintalk21:45, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Christopher G. Moore, Canadian author, was born in 1946 according to the Library of Congress (www.loc.gov) authorities database. Other sources, such as Wikipedia and Fantastic Fiction list him as 1952. Which is correct?208.74.208.242 (talk) 15:58, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Top Secret America says that there are 854,000 people with top secret clearence in the USA, out of a population of - whatever it is. The Stasi were I understand a high proportion of the population of East Germany. How do countries vary in the proportion of their population who work in security of some kind such as secret agents and the police? Thanks 92.24.178.254 (talk) 20:15, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Now, I don't know how common this is with Top Secret, but it is commonplace for "ordinary" people to have some kind of security clearance if it will make their job easier. For example, I worked for a company that sold a product that one of our customers used to handle sensitive data. One of our field support techs had security clearance, which meant that he could actually look at what was on the screen to help us debug the problem. Paul (Stansifer)05:27, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
When I was with the US military, I had (no longer have) a Top Secret clearance, that was due to the fact that, as a computer operator, then later a programmer, I had to deal with classified material and had to keep track of passwords which protected classified documents. That was one military base, add to that all other sites where classified material was processed, and you can see why the number of people with clearances adds up. It doesn't have anything to do with paranoia. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 22:48, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Having a security clearance simply means that the government considers you demonstrably trustworthy and honest. Given that, those large numbers speak pretty well for Americans. The number would likely be way much higher, except that many Americans never seek a government job. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 14:31, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In 1989, the Stasi had 91,015 full-time employees, according to our Stasi article. The East German population was around 16 million people at that time, so that makes it .5% of the total population who worked full-time for the Stasi. They also had 173,081 unofficial informants. So you could say that 1% of the population worked for the Stasi, which is pretty impressive on the face of it. (It means that at least one person in every apartment complex was a designated Stasi informant. Probably more in some!)
But it's apples-to-oranges to compare that to Top Secret holders in the USA. For one thing, most Top Secret holders are probably not in the intelligence organizations — they are in the military. Second, informants in East Germany were not Top Secret holders (or whatever the equivalent was).
If we just look at intelligence agencies, a better comparison is between the Stasi and the FBI. The FBI currently has 33,652 full-time employees according to the FBI article, out of the total US population of 307 million, which is two orders of magnitude less percentage-wise than Stasi employment (.01%). If we also include the CIA (which is probably appropriate, since the Stasi was not just domestic), that's another 20,000 people. That doesn't affect the percentage substantially. (Note that .4% of the population of the US is in the Armed Forces at the moment. But most probably do not have Top Secret clearances. And even if you add that to the total intelligence agencies, you don't get up to the 1% of the Stasi.)
But is this even the right metric? I don't think so. The Stasi were not distinguished by their number so much as their methods. That's what matters. And that can go both ways. The Stasi had machines that let them basically read two pieces of mail for every resident per year, if they wanted to. Compare that to the capabilities of the NSA, for example, who probably have the technical capacity to record any electronic communication whatsoever by US citizens. The NSA is more powerful technically than the Stasi could have ever dreamed to be. On the other hand, the NSA (and the FBI, and CIA) don't have a reputation for knocking on your door late and night and forcing you to rat out your friends because they read a piece of poetry that was deemed subversive. So the comparison there seems to fall a bit flat. We should not, of course, lose sight of the fact that capabilities and deeds can be very linked indeed, but we should also not confuse the two as synonymous. Opinions will differ as to whether the US is a surveillance state to the same degree as the Stasi, but I don't think most sane people would disagree that the individual and political environment is extremely different. You can be plenty "subversive" in the US without anybody caring much, and there is basically zero effective control on media expression. It is an age where everyone has their own printing press a million times more effective than the most popular Samizdats — a phenomena for which this Wiki is a proud example. The Stasi would not be pleased. --Mr.98 (talk) 16:15, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Resistance to the Metric System
In the question a few steps above, there is some mention of American resistance to the Metric System. Other than inertia and familiarity, why is that? Metric has a generally consistent internal logic, what with base ten, rather than weird numbers like how many inches in feet and feet in miles. Aaronite (talk) 20:24, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What makes you think there is more to it than just inertia and familiarity? Humans are generally quite resistant to change. They don't need a reason beyond that. --Tango (talk) 20:50, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
One difference between the United States and Europe is that in many cases political elites in European countries can push through changes such as adoption of the metric system or abolition of the death penalty whether the majority of the population is in favor or opposed (and in many countries a majority was opposed to such changes at the time they were first enacted). This may make Europe more enlightened than the United States, but it doesn't make it more democratic... AnonMoos (talk) 21:57, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We've had this discussion before, but think of it this way: Esperanto is a much more logical language than English is. Should we dump English and all speak Esperanto? Most English speakers would object to that, because English, for all of its quirks, is intuitive to those who have lived with it their entire lives. Feet, inches, miles, etc. may seem strange to those who aren't used to it, but for those who have lived their entire lives with it, it's intuitive -- to an American, "Everyone knows how far a mile is." -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:48, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Is the metric system actually used by everyone in Europe? In Canada, where the metric system has been used officially for almost 40 years, we still use non-metric measurements in normal speech. Adam Bishop (talk) 23:44, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Could you elaborate on that? Why are European governments more able to ignore the populace than US governments? --Tango (talk) 00:49, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(Not an answer to Tango's question, but ..) What AnonMoos writes does, for example, apply to "direct democracy" in Switzerland. On a national level, women weren't able to vote until the 1970s after several earlier attempts had been turned down by our men at the ballots. On a cantonal level some cantons introduced women's suffrage earlier, also by men's vote. In other cantons (and also in Liechtenstein) it wasn't introduced until later. In one case the men remained against it, and it had to be enforced by Supreme Court ruling in 1990. It took Switzerland forever to join the United Nations, and, if we believe the demoscopes, the people wouldn't agree to join the European Union either. For a last, recent example: It is very unlikely that a Western democratic government would introduce a ban on building minarets, as we did last November. ---Sluzzelintalk01:26, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(By the way, I don't mean to imply that other nations would be equally conservative if they had more direct and less representative instruments of democracy. In my own experience and comparison, to this day, Swiss society is distinctly tainted by archaic male values (albeit passive aggressive ones), but hey, what do I know, ask Geert Hofstede. [3]. ---Sluzzelintalk03:35, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Alas, the one quarter of U.S. citizens who believe that the characters they see on TV are real (per survey) and the quarter who don't know that the U.S. declared independence from England (per survey) might be challenged by such a change from the familiar. No data to what degree these two quarters overlap.
More seriously, IMHO weight is not as much a problem (pound is roughly half a kilo) but the 2.5 cm to an inch always threw me off (and I know my history). More to the point, there is the sheer size of the U.S. and everything that is tooled to non-metric. Economics will drive any eventual U.S. conversion to metric, not legislation. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK03:17, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
the quarter who don't know that the U.S. declared independence from England - they still don't know that, Peter. The US declared independence from the Kingdom of Great Britain. They were just as much declaring independence from Scotland and Wales as they were from England; but it's silly to single out any of the constituent parts, because the K of GB was a unitary state. Cheers. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 03:48, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd call your distinction more semantics with regard to popular knowledge (but thank you for your precision). The surveyed misconception was more basic, as in, France versus England, or not knowing at all. (!) PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK22:52, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, but why perpetuate an error for the sake of simplicity? This is like saying that Japan did not attack the United States in December 1941, they only attacked Hawaii. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 23:35, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Vecumbra is right that economics is the most likely force of change, as there is no inherent reason to change otherwise (the fact "the rest of the world" uses it is a good reason not to). In fact, nearly everything in US stores lists the size in both Metric and what we used to call the "English System". Inches, feet, yards, etc., are based on "human" measurements. The meter is to the yard what the camel is to the horse: "designed by a committee". And just try dividing a meter by 3 and see how things go. Yards and feet? No problem. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 03:57, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I actually agree with Tango, 61.189, and Mwalcoff as well as Vecumbra, and Bugs too . I grew up with the metric system, and my skills in mental arithmetic improved while living in the US, because converting gallons, miles, pounds, and Fahrenheit in my head was the only way I could cope. Miles are easy, Fahrenheit are extremely annoying. When you're struggling at that level, for a long time, you might not be interested in the merits of the other system. ---Sluzzelintalk04:01, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For the life o' me, I have never been able to figure out what they thought was wrong with Fahrenheit. It's a finer gradient than Celsius. And what's holy about the melting and boiling points of water? That's an arbitrary decision - just as was the original decision to make a meter a small specific fraction of the distance from the equator to the north pole. Fahrenheit works just fine, but unfortunately is a pain to convert to Celsius and vice versa, because of the 5/9 or 9/5 situation. I've found that the best way to deal with it is to have a thermometer on the wall that shows both. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 04:07, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Celsius does have a less persuasive case than meter/gram/litre etc. Two markers are easy to remember (and we Celsiusites have to remember an odd number for blood temperature too). The annoying part is that you have to perform a subtraction/addition (+/- 32) and a multiplication/division! My point was merely that, coming from the other side, I fully understand the reluctance (though I wouldn't want to finance this mix-up out of my own pocket either :) ---Sluzzelintalk04:14, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Since Celsius was devised in 1742, only 18 years after Fahrenheit (which itself was a modification of Rømer), it doesn't seem likely that Fahrenheit was at all well-established when Celsius was invented. And if we're going to play the game of denouncing late-comers for creating needless complication, then Newton's scale based on the boiling and freezing points of water predates the idea of using the freezing point of brine. Algebraist10:37, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Remind people about the Mars spaceprobe that crashed because people had mixed up the metric and imperial systems. Its odd that imperial is still used in the USA when it is no longer used in the Motherland. I hope US metrication will at least stop Americans from believing that the whole world uses, or wants to use, those d*mn "cups" that they are obsessed with. 92.15.12.218 (talk) 13:17, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There are 3 feet in a yard. Both feet and yards are "human" measurements that can be easily related to, unlike meters or centimeters. There's no obvious need to divide a yard by 10. Just as there's no obvious need to have a meter be 3.37 inches longer than a yard. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 03:08, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Huh? Is there an obvious need to have a yard be 8.5598 centimetres shorter than a metre? It is just what you are used to, Baseball Bugs. Bielle (talk) 03:23, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The yard was there first. And there's no compelling reason for the US to adopt someone else's measuring system at this point. Metrics are listed on products that have weights or volumes, just on the off chance that any American cares. Having metrics in science classes, as we did back in the 60s, is just fine, since it's confined to that environment. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 03:33, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There were other things before that ridiculous upstart "yard" came along. Why don't you use them? Why should your car not get 40 rods to the hogshead and that's the way you likes it? Adam Bishop (talk) 03:51, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
40 rods to the hogshead! What are you driving? The USS Iowa (BB-61) got 42.4 rods to the hogshead at flank speed, and at 15 kt her roddage improved to 135.5 rtth. By comparison, an M1 Abrams battle tank gets 11,650 rtth.-- ToET15:18, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The first stage of a Saturn V rocket only got 4 rtth, but it was going fast enough that it could coast a fair distance and get a better average consumption, and the oxidizer was included in the number of hogsheads of fuel used. Googlemeister (talk) 16:01, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The answer to the OP's question is American exceptionalism. The system America uses is better because America uses it; and all things America touches become better than things it does not by mere association. At least, that's the primary reason I, as an American, can see for refusal to adopt the metric system. That, and the standard inertia that generally accompanies these things. --Jayron3203:41, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well put. :) It's worth mentioning that there were some attempts during the 1970s to make the metric system even more visible, by putting it on road signs and such. It went over like a lead balloon. If and when it becomes necessary to switch to metrics, America will do it. Until such time, there's no reason to. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 04:13, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think that just about every car sold in the US these days has kilometers on the speedometer, though that may just be so that they don't have to change them to sell them in Canada. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 06:18, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, in Canada, the metric numbers are big and the U.S. numbers are small on the speedometer, the opposite as in the U.S. It's more in case you do drive to Canada or Mexico. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 06:54, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Another example of metrics and the American system both being shown. And in either country, you can ignore the one that you don't care about, until there's a reason to care - such as crossing the border. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 14:29, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
[unindent] As far as distance measure goes, one difficulty with adopting the metric system is the grid plan used for streets and roads in many parts of the USA. Many cities are planned with one street every 1/10 of a mile, and many states (especially in the Great Plains, although this extends as far east as western Ohio) are covered with grid roads at intervals of one mile or ½ each; it would be less convenient to think of roads appearing every 1.609 km than every mile. Nyttend (talk) 15:18, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If America does not adopt metric, then it is going to be difficult for it to export its manufactured products to a rest of the world that uses metric. Whereas rising star China has no such problems.
Not really. Most of the US's exports are things that aren't dependant on a certain unit system (eg. electronics, drugs, etc.) or that can easily be made in metric versions (eg. corn that you can just measure out in different quantities for export). --Tango (talk) 21:09, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well it doesn't matter to me one way or the other whether we use metric or Imperial in the US, lets just make sure we get rid of the stupid troy ounce and troy pound. Googlemeister (talk) 14:08, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
When is kneeling performed during Yom Kippur services and how prevalent is it throughout the Jewish community? Could someone please direct me to a good scholarly source that mentions anything about this? Thanks. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 00:11, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Kneeling if performed one time on Rosh Hashana and 4 times on Yom Kippur. The first time is the same for both holidays -- it is during the musafchazarat hashatz (repetition of the chazzan) when he gets to aleinu. Perhaps you have access to an ArtScrollmachzor, in which case you can see this on page 550-1 of the Yom Kippur Ashkenaz version. This phrase is normally accompanied with the normal waist-bow during the rest of the year, but on High Holidays, because the musaf is so very associated with the Temple worship, a full bow is performed by the chazzan and whomever in the congregation cares to do so as well. The next three times occur only on Yom Kippur and accompany the "Temple service" portion of the Yom Kippur repetition of the chazzan (again, in the ArtScroll, pages 560-1, 562-3 and 566-7). These three kneelings are during the words "והכהנים והעם", when we recite the words about how the Kohen Gadol would recite the Tetragrammaton with its proper pronunciation -- at which time, they would all kneel and prostrate themselves and recite "Baruch shem kavod..." I'd say it's ubiquitous among Orthodox communites for the chazzan to kneel and perhaps less so among the congregants. Some congregations do, some probably don't, and the vast majority of, let's say, non-Hasidic/Yeshivish communities probably see a mixture within each synagogue. I do not possess a copy of the Shulchan Aruch but the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch includes mention of the custom of spreading something on the floor so that kneeling not be performed on a stone floor (as prohibited since Temple times, and later extended to either include all flooring or just remains as a custom to not do so on any flooring) in 133:23. The Chayei Adam mentions the same custom in 145:35. DRosenbach(Talk | Contribs)02:51, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The source in the Shulchan Aruch for this kneeling and bowing with one's head touching the ground is: Orach Chaim chap.621 par.4 gloss of Rema. Not placing one's head directly on a stone floor is stated in the Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim chap.131 par.8 gloss of Rema - (there is no prohibition for the knees to touch a stone floor). The Torah source for this prohibition is Leviticus chap.26 verse 1. For this reason the worshipper in the Synagogue places a cloth or a piece of paper to separate his head from making direct contact with the actual floor. Simonschaim (talk) 09:55, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The number of days per month, from January to December, is: 31, 28 (or 29), 31, 30, 31, 30, 31, 31, 30, 31, 30, 31. The calendar is based on the movements of the sun, the moon, and the earth; the seasons; etc. These are all very precise and predictable movements and patterns. How did it come to be, then, that the number of days per month has such an odd and seemingly arbitrary and random pattern (or, lack of pattern)? There seems to be no rhyme or reason to the numbering scheme. How did this start out? And why didn't anyone ever change it over these past many hundred years? Thanks. (64.252.34.115 (talk) 02:00, 31 July 2010 (UTC))[reply]
A trivia book I once read said that Julius Caesar and Augustus Caesar each stole one day from February to add to the month they named after themselves. Having some smattering of 31s among the 30s is the best you can do if you're committed to having 12 months. Paul (Stansifer)05:27, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The ancient Roman calendar developed from an original ten-month lunar calendar (with January and February left out, since nothing interesting happened in the agricultural cycle during that time of year), to a solar calendar whose leap years consisted of shortening February to 23 days and inserting a 13th month between February and March, to the more familiar Julian calendar. At various stages along the way, there were various adjustments and fudgings, and the accumulated result of all those adjustments is the pattern of month lengths in the current calendar... AnonMoos (talk) 05:37, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My library runs more to Heraldry than Genealogy, but according to Blood Royal (1956) by Sir Iain Moncreiffe and Don Pottinger, She is directly descended from Prince Llewelyn the Great aka Llewelyn I of Wales. I could type out the 15 generations listed between Llewelyn and James VI & I if you want them. The book (the second sequel to Simple Heraldry, Cheerfully Illustrated) is popular rather than scholarly, but given Sir Iain's stature as a genealogist is probably reliable on such matters. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 11:55, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not 100% sure exactly what you intended there, so I'll type it out here and you can do what you want with it . . .
(King Coel the Old, Ancient Briton, c. 400 -> [24 generations omitted here] -> Iowerth Drwyadwn) -> Prince Llewelyn the Great, died 1240 -> Gwladys the Black married Ralph Mortimer, Lord of Wigmore -> Roger Mortimer, Lord of Wigmore, died 1282 -> Edmund, Lord Mortimer, died 1304 -> Roger, Earl of the Welsh March, executed 1330 -> Edmund, Lord Mortimer, died 1331 -> Roger, Earl of the Welsh March, died 1359 -> Earl Edmund the Good, died 1381 -> Roger, Earl of the Welsh March, killed 1398 -> Lady Anne Mortimer married Richard, Earl of Cambridge -> Richard, Duke of York, killed 1460 -> King Edward IV died 1483 -> Princess Elizabeth married King Henry VII -> Princess Margaret Tudor married James IV -> James V died 1542 -> Mary Queen of Scots married Henry Stuart -> James I, King of Great Britain from 1603.
(Source: pp 40-41, Iain Moncrieffe of Easter Moncreiffe, Unicorn Pursuivant of Arms and Don Pottinger, Thomas Nelson & Sons Ltd, 1956.)
Incidentally, the same book (pp 42-43) sets out a purported line of descent to James VI & I stretching back (via James V and Kenneth mac Alpin, died 860) 37 generations to the (semi-legendary) King Fergus the Great (aka Fergus Mór), died 501. If the latter was descended from the High Kings of Ireland (as well as being "traced By the Gaelic sennachies back to the Celtic god-king Eremon" aka Érimón), that would give you the other line you asked for. Also, the Pictish royal line merged with this one (according to Moncreiffe) by virtue of "a Pictish princess" marrying Eochaid the Venomous, c. 781. However, my impression is that this line's historicity is in its earlier portions less secure than the Welsh one. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 21:34, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
One link with the Welsh Princes was Henry VII of England, whose "hereditary connections to Welsh aristocracy were not strong. He was descended by the paternal line, through several generations, to Ednyfed Fychan, the seneschal(steward) of Gwynedd and through this seneschal's wife to Rhys ap Tewdwr, the King of Deheubarth in South Wales.". This is a different line from Llewelyn the Great. This page[4] says; "Her late Majesty Queen Elizabeth the late Queen Mother (the last Queen of Ireland) brought the blood of the Dal Cais and Eoganacht dynasties of Munster and that of the Ui Neill high kings into the Royal Family. Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II is a direct descendant of King Brian Boru, Nial of the Nine Hostages and the Iron Age sacral kings of Tara." However, this is matrilineal descent; I understand that Irish Kings could only inherit through the male line. Alansplodge (talk) 14:53, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Another line is suggested by this [5] page; "Brian's descendants are the O'Brien clan. One of them later married a Norman noble, and an offspring of this union was Elizabeth de Burgh. She later married the Duke of Clarence, who was the son of English king Edward III, and from their union came the York kings and the mother of Henry VIII."
I remember speaking to a ruler, lord, in the UK. He clamed to be the rightful heir to the throne and that there was a changling in the history-line! So how can you trace a legitimate line, if that is the case? And of course there has been too many battles, and too many claimants, to justify the concempt of direct line. Perhaps 1066 being the most notable. MacOfJesus (talk) 22:34, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The legitimate line is the one that was legally recognised at the time, the 'choice' between several candidates often being decided by force of arms, legal rules that were valid then though they might not be valid today, and other contentious points. There are doubtless many lines of descent that would be legitimate if some decisions had gone the other way, but they didn't, and cannot be re-raised now. Substitution of royal infants was always a worry, was not infrequently rumoured to bolster alternative claims, and was therefore always guarded against - Royal births were usually officially witnessed; whether it ever actually happened would be almost impossible to prove at this juncture other than by DNA analysis of all the relevant corpses, which in practice will never be permitted. When dynasties were changed by battles, the winners usually took care to marry some of the preceding dynasty into their own to strengthen their cause, and anyway usually (in the British Isles) already had ancestry from it. William I, for example, was related on his mother's side to earlier Anglo-Saxon and Danish rulers of England. In any case, we are primarily discussing lines of ancestral descent, not recognised lines of legal inheritance of the throne which are bound by much more restrictive rules, such as (usually) male-line only. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 09:29, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You guys are getting off subject. I need a good line of descent from Brian Boru down to Elizabeth II or any other High King of Ireland if Brian isn't possible. Also I need another line describing her descent from the Kings of Ulster. It would be interesting to put on Descent of Elizabeth II from William I because it would show she is descendant of all the past rulers of the British Isles including Walse, Ireland and Northern Ireland. I'm perfectly aware that her descent does not affect her right to reign and that it is the Parliament that says who is Sovereign.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 02:23, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Discursions around the primary question are allowed, Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy, and are (or should be) marked off by the indent system to show they're not direct responses to it: Alansplodge, Jack of Oz and I were correcting MacofJesus, not you. If we could/can contribute further answers directly to the thrust of your question, perhaps discovered by reading and thinking around the subject while addressing the digressions, we would/will. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 09:29, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Again according to Blood Royal, she is descended from, amongst other worthies, Mujahid Al Aâmiri, King of the Barbary Corsairs, whose daughter or descendant (this line is only sketched), a "Moorish Princess of Denia", married Mahomet I, King of Seville; the line proceeds via such as Joanna, Queen of Spain, William, Duke of Cleves, and Christian V, King of Denmark, mostly through intermarriages between ruling dynasties. I daresay it's likely that a descendent of Mohammed (PBUH) married into this line at some point. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 09:29, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you can trace her descendants to Brian Boru, then she is an Irish Woman, with Celtic blood. The bit about "the lord, as ruler", I cannot elaborate for obvious reasons or give citations! I don't think this story is going to end! Actually, it is the other way around; The Monarch, gives creedence to Parliament and allows Parliament to sit, the leader; the Prime Minister to form a Goverment. MacOfJesus (talk) 08:24, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Did you read the articles linked? While it is true that Parliament maintains the polite fiction that the Queen rules and has the final say, the reality is that Parliament serves The Crown. If the particular person who happens to be the monarch at the moment worries Parliament too much, they can and will replace them. Which is why William and Mary got to reign, and is what the Act of Settlement was about. So, it really doesn't matter what claim anyone thinks they have to the throne: the Monarch is whoever Parliament says is the Monarch. It might lead to a constitutional crisis, but we've had them before. As long as the people generally feel it's the right thing to do, it doesn't lead to too much trouble. 86.164.66.83 (talk) 16:53, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How are you using the word 'rule', then? I don't think I'm familiar with a meaning of the word 'rule' which would fit the context and yet not describe the function the Queen fictionally has in the UK. In the UK, Acts of Parliament are all signed by the Queen to become law, the government and the justice system are all apparently 'hers' and carrying out her will, the Prime Minister sees her regularly to 'advise' her. The pretence is that Parliament merely advises and the Queen takes their advice, that the Queen has the final say in the laws and their enforcement. Of course, this is not actually the case, but the pretence that it is is why we have the convoluted "asking to resign", etc. business with a change of government. Everybody knows that is not the case, and most of the time people don't even pretend, but often enough the government goes through a little constitutionally-necessary pantomime. And all Acts of Parliament still get signed off by her. 86.164.66.83 (talk) 23:22, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No bill can become law until it’s given Royal Assent, that’s very true. But there are two things to be said about this. Firstly, the Queen hardly ever personally signs bills into law; Royal Asssent is normally given in her name by the Lords Commissioners, who have a standing authority to act in this way. But secondly, the fact that her or her delegate’s signature is required, does not mean that she has the right to decline to sign. She has no right to decline, not in any real sense. She has the right to be consulted about the contents of bills, and the right to warn the government of any concerns she may have, but at the end of the day she’s presented with passed bills to sign into law, and she signs them. To refuse to do so would spell the end of her reign. She has no more say about the law than ordinary citizens do. She does not rule. -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 01:57, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
While the Queen doesn't usually attend Parliament in order to give Royal Assent, she does personally consent to each bill by issuing a specific commission mentioning the bill(s). There is no standing authority. See [6] for details of the process. --Tango (talk) 02:16, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the correction, Tango. But how's that for arcane ritual! Amazing that Norman French, of all things, still survives in such exalted places. -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 03:48, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That is not how I read it. During Margaret Thatcher's reign, Parliament could not discuss anything to do with Sovereign territory. "The Mace was withdrawn for that". I do not agree. And you have forgotten the House of Lords. The Monarch is not whoever Parliament says. MacOfJesus (talk) 19:30, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Queen Elizabeth II has established, by her reign, a recognition and a strenght that the balance is now very much on the other foot. If a week is a long time in politics, then Queen E. II has got a head start.MacOfJesus (talk) 19:41, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I did not forget the House of Lords. "The Parliament Act 1911 effectively abolished the power of the House of Lords to reject legislation, or to amend in a way unacceptable to the House of Commons". The Lords (most of whom are no longer hereditary peers, since only 92 of the over 700 hereditary peers have the right to sit in the house any more) do not, by any stretch, 'rule'. In any case, they form part of Parliament, which has the power to do whatever it wants really, as long as people let it. You are getting caught up in the pretence: the UK constitution is flexible and allows for Parliament to reject and recognise Monarchs. This has actually happened in the past, as you can see. Elizabeth II has done well in that we are not a republic, but she has mostly achieved that by not doing anything. It is her non-involvement, her non-exercising of powers that she technically has (but in practice would find cost her the throne), that has led to the affection she is regarded with. By confining herself to the three rights listed in Politics of the UK, she has managed to retain those three rights. She technically has the right to seriously mess with the political system, but in practice if she did that she would be swept from the throne. If someone else came along and said they were the 'legitimate heir to the throne' (presumably involving legitimate descent from Sophia of Hanover), the response would be "That's nice.", without even getting into the interaction of the Commonwealth. It is Parliament who declared that the throne would go to the heirs of Sophia, it is Parliament who can change that. Although, of course, changing that for other members of the Commonwealth would be down to those other members. 86.164.66.83 (talk) 20:33, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The issue re The Constitution is a mute one. What was seen is that this would be set by now and not changable the way it is. You say that it is happy not to be a republic. However, a stable republic has a Constitution "written on stone", which every school child will have a copy of. That has the advantage that when a monarch dies the up-heaval is avoided. If E II dies who will succeed? And will Parliament go down that road? If there was a stable Constituation this step would be not so awsome! MacOfJesus (talk) 21:00, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I did not say "it is happy not to be a republic", I said that Elizabeth II has avoided a republic by not doing anything political. The people tolerate, and even feel some affection towards, a monarch who leaves them alone. A monarch that tried to 'rule' or mess with the political system would not last long these days. If we had acquired a written constitution a century or two ago, that would have crystallised our government in that form, meaning that now we would either have a much less progressive government, or we would have had a revolution. Instead, our constitution is (largely) unwritten and flexible. This has downsides, but allows us to be practical and go with what works when necessary. It is said that we never had a workers' revolution because concessions and changes were made gradually as people demanded them. When the Queen dies, Charles will automatically become King (unless he dies or converts before then), unless the government has decided to change the rules of succession, which should ideally involve the Commonwealth. Every schoolchild knows that, without holding a piece of paper that says it. If there was a stable constitution, making changes would be awesome indeed.
British government supposedly works like a game of cricket: everyone gets their turn at batting and bowling, so it's in nobody's interest to mess up the field, and good sportsmanlike behaviour is expected at all times. In practice, it has its problems, but the flexibility is how we now have a coalition government looking at reforming both Houses. The flexibility is also why anyone telling you about 'secret real kings' is making stuff up. De factoisde jure. 86.164.66.83 (talk) 22:46, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also, there's nothing magical about a written constitution, vis-a-vis stability of a national government. France has one. Heck, France has had several of them. That doesn't prevent France from undergoing a violent revolution every 40-50 years for the past 230 years or so... --Jayron3204:02, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, there is no magic in politics I think. Maybe there is a gap for a genuine Religion that anchors in truth. If Prince Charles becomes a Catholic, that might be the spark that brings about a new future. MacOfJesus (talk) 08:50, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Religion and Education
Are more educated people less religious, or do they actually believe or follow less of their religions beliefs and values? You always hear the words "pray", "faith", "wish", "believe in g0d", "hope", etc... from religious people or figures. I just don't see how praying for someone that is terminally ill can help them at all and I once read a study that showed it did nothing at all. There are also several stories about parents who had very sick children, I believe it was cancer and/or other diseases, and they prayed rather than get them treatment and they all died. I also don't see how having faith, wishing, or any of that can help . It never helped me on any tests and back then I believed in all this stuff. I just can't see how anyone who is educated would think that any of the above would help. If I have a test, I need to study. If I want to make money or become successful, I need to work hard and make good choices. Are there any studies or any other data to support any of this? Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.169.33.234 (talk) 10:06, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What was this study? Did it examine all the cases throughout history where a sick person was prayed for, to see what the outcome was? Well, no, it couldn't possibly have done that. Did it deny that terminally ill people have ever had a sudden, unexplained and totally unexpected remission - well, no, it couldn't deny that such things have happened, because they have. Whether the change had anything to do with prayer or not, is something that can only be guessed at. The thing with faith is, it can apply even when there's overwhelming evidence that it doesn't work or couldn't possibly work. So it certainly applies when there's a simple absence of evidence one way or the other. If you KNEW that something was going to produce a certain outcome, there would be no need to have any faith in it. Faith is used when logic/science/common sense either doesn't predict what the outcome is going to be, or predicts it will be something other than the outcome you have faith in. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 10:27, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But you can do controlled studies to see if prayer has any effect on health outcomes, the same way you can do studies to see if owning pets has such an effect, or taking a placebo. There have been controlled studies on prayer. Many of them have been quite methodologically poor, to be sure (if someone thinks they are being prayed for, that can have a non-neglible psychological effect by itself — not necessarily for the better). The good ones have generally all found that prayer has basically no consistent effect on health outcomes. (One such very large study was done just a few years ago.) Now theologically you can debate the meaning of that all you want — maybe God doesn't help when he knows people are studying him — but to say there isn't evidence one way or the other is just not true. And from a purely practical standpoint, if praying made people rich, or could destroy the wicked, or save the good, and so forth, one would expect, given all the prayer done in this world, that things would be a bit different, no? Even if only 1% of all prayers were acted on, one would expect that to have a non-negligible effect on the economy, the justice system, the healthcare system, and so on, when you start magnifying it along the size of any group of worshipers. It's the weak atheist in me saying this, to be sure, but to me the world we live in looks indistinguishable from one in which there is no regular intercession into human or natural affairs by a benevolent and omnipotent deity. (That doesn't mean there isn't a deity, to be sure — it just means he doesn't seem to be willing, or able, to intercede very much in day-to-day affairs. Cf. Deism, Problem of evil, etc.) --Mr.98 (talk) 16:20, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
An educated religious person would generally seek medical treatment for their child and pray: it isn't an either/or. Personally, as someone who has lost many elements of my faith, I still sometimes pray. It isn't about trying to change the outside world, it's about helping the people involved in the praying so they can better deal with the things that happen in the outside world. It's a form of meditation and a way of ordering your thoughts and feelings. It often involves looking at your past and thinking of what you would do in future, identifying the things that worry you and working out why, sorting out what things you can change and what you can't, coming to terms with the things you can't change, appreciating the good things you've enjoyed, and much more. These things are very helpful to me, and I imagine they are very helpful to (to use your example) the parents of very sick children, and helpful for the children, too, if they know they might die. 86.164.66.83 (talk) 11:05, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I guess I was trying to say that I feel as if many less educated people tend to rely on faith rather than hard work to get what they want or to where they want to be (whether its being finally rich, successful, etc...) and end up failing miserably. I've seen this looking at many different groups of families where very few religious families have changed (from grandparents to parents to children). But I have seen hard workers grow and become rich and successful even if their parents or grandparents were poor.
You should read the article Religiosity and intelligence and Placebo effect. The first article seems to indicate that on average the more educated and intelligent segments of society are less religious and contain more atheists (I might be mistaken here). The second article is also interresting ("if a religous patient truly believes that his god will help in his recovery his faith might even help" - "and a less religious patient can undergoe the same effect by his faith in remedies and medics"). Flamarande (talk) 11:21, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If one believes that prayer will secure outside help in passing a test, is it actually a proper thing to do? If this communication was achieved via a mobile device, it would be confiscated before the test began, for providing an unfair advantage to the righteous. 81.131.55.148 (talk) 13:54, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Now you're being stuborn. If you pray to your god before a common test and he (assuming that something like your god even exists) decides to help you then the issue is between you, him, and your conscience. Someone self-rightous might say that his god will have his mysterious reasons for helping him. A reasonable person will say that the prayer simply calmed the person in need and that said person knew the correct answers all along. A cynic, like myself, will argue that it is truly a piteful prayer to make, and if someone truly believes that his god has nothing better to do than to help someone who prayed to pass a common test then his god and his faith are truly piteful indeed. Flamarande (talk) 15:36, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Religious people almost always consider their deity/deities to be above human laws and rules. If a deity decides to help you with a test then the will of the deity overrides the usual rules. If the invigilator believes in the deity in question, they'll allow that deity to intervene. If they don't believe in the deity in question, then they won't see any problem with the prayer, since it doesn't do anything. --Tango (talk) 15:54, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Here's a study that data crunched IQ scores with some sort of "religiosity index" and found that a country's atheism rate can be predicted from its average IQ score. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 19:08, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I read somewhere that there are few religions in which the more educated a believer becomes the more active they are in their faith. Judaism and Mormonism are among these religions.
Most people would probably consider me a religious person, and I have more education than most, so I might be a good example of what this discussion is about. I think the idea that you can pray for help on a test without studying for it or pray for someone who has cancer without seeking medical help for them is ludicrous. I believe in doing as much as I can (studying hard for the test or taking the person to the best doctor I can find or afford) as well as praying for God's help. I have had many experiences where I combined prayer with hard work and felt strengthened by it, whether it be in just feeling calmer during a test so that I could think straight and remember what I studied or in being better able to put other things out of my mind as I studied so that I could concentrate better.
My education has deepened my understanding of and faith in my religion. I think part of the issue is that, for many, religion and faith is something you do not question. For me, religion needs to be something strong enough to stand up to honest questioning, or it is not worth following. Wrad (talk) 19:57, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Religion, indeed must stand up to scrutiny. Saint Thomas Aquinas said: The God I can prove exist, is not the God I believe in. What he meant is the God he believed in was a personal One and a Redeemer. One the intelligence alone could not argue to. MacOfJesus (talk) 22:13, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If that is truly the case how do you explain the (admitedly few) studies which seem to indicate otherwise? IMHO the less someone knows (the more ignorant someone is), the easier he will accept/obey the teachings of his society without doubts or questions. He will not question his teachings (ie: his faith, because faith de facto is taught by one's parents and priests) because he has little reasons to doubt. Someone with a higher degree of education tends to have a wider perspective and can try to understand an issue from diffrent points of view. In the case of religion the more educated person tends to need evidence in order to truly believe (and as there is no empyrical evidence for the existence of god the more educated ppl will tend to doubt, which leads to atheism). (I vaguely remember that Amish limit the education of their children, I wonder why?) Flamarande (talk) 07:27, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm talking individuals, not studies. There are many college-educated religionists and college-educated agnostics and atheists. There are also many high-school-grad or high-school-dropout religionists as well as agnostics and atheists. Religion fills a need for all of these people who are religionists, regardless of their education level. It apparently does not fill that need for agnostics and atheists. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 14:25, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever studies might show, an individual can choose to believe what they want. Just because I am statistically unlikely to be religious doesn't mean I'm not. Frankly, education has taught me that nothing can be proven absolutely, so to demand the same from religion seems a bit of a double standard. Empirical evidence is by no means absolute in its ability to determine or prove truth or demonstrate reality. It is, in fact, incredibly limited, otherwise we would know everything by now. Empirical evidence also depends on a lot of non-empirical beliefs and philosophies that simply can't be proven, such as the idea that anything at all actually exists in the universe, including the universe itself. Putting your faith in empirical studies is really not much different from putting your faith in religion, at least in light of the fact that both cannot be proven to be correct philosophies empirically. Wrad (talk) 19:42, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Most prayers go unanswered because they are addressed to overextended deities. Just imagine the bandwidth necessary to monitor the supplications of upwards of a billion devotees; don't even try to imagine the job queue! It has been shown that prayers to more obscure gods are more likely to be fulfilled. -- ToET13:27, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"I pray because I can't help myself. I pray because I'm helpless. I pray because the need flows out of me all the time - waking and sleeping. It doesn't change God - it changes me." C. S. Lewis. Alansplodge (talk) 17:39, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is really an apples and oranges kind of thing; educated people approach religion in a very different way than uneducated people. Educated people tend to be 'spiritual' where uneducated people tend to be 'religious'. in other words, less educated people tend to take religion at face value and adopt religious doctrines in an uncritical (sometimes even fanatical) manner, while more educated people tend to reach for the principles that lie behind religious dogma, and take a more philosophical, universalistic view of faith. There is a kind of middle ground where people become educated enough to reject religious dogma but aren't yet philosophical enough about it to reconstruct the good elements of faith into a more personally meaningful structure - proselytic atheist (i.e. people who try to convince other people that religion is bad) invariably fall into that group. --Ludwigs218:15, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think those who say that education and religion, in the arguments that are shown here, are opposed should spend a day in a University (well established one). Have a look at the possability of getting a degree in Scripture. There are only about 10 Exegesis Experts in the world. Then Dogmatic Theology. Then Moral Theology. The related subjects would be Philosophy and Psycology. If you attempted to go down the road to gain efficiency in any of these, you might have to study the related languages, such as Aramaic, Greek, Latin, Hebrew, just to stay on the subject. If you want to be heard on the theories you propound, then show that you have studied all angles of the subject and are aware of what others have propounded on that. You seem to forget that less educated people can show a great level of Common Sense and Wisdom. MacOfJesus (talk) 21:37, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If being philosophical is the natural progression of increased intelligence, then I'm happy with my current level of intelligence, thank you very much. --Tango (talk) 11:56, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure you are happy, but have you considered that your attitude might not be so much fun for the rest of us? ignorance is only blissful for the ignorant... <smirk>--Ludwigs219:12, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This link describes "Bills of exchange" of the late Middle Ages period: http://www.boisestate.edu/courses/latemiddleages/econ/banking.shtml
At the end of the article ("Conclusion") is a black & white drawing of two merchants transacting business.
If you were to guess, can you give me answers on these questions:
What type of business are they transacting?
What time period?
What products?
What city?
What is the pouch called that the merchant with a hat has?
The article and its "Conclusion" seems to talk much about 'Bills of exchange' pertaining to the 13th and 14th century (if I am understanding it correctly). Could the gentleman with the hat have been a person that was delivering a "Bill of exchange" (similar to today's cheque) to purchase merchandise from the merchant for his client back home (say Florence)?
It's a purse, as in "he who steals my purse steals trash" and the word "cutpurse". I think purse is the correct term for both the sturdy pouch kind and the dangling drawstring bag kind (more amenable to cutting). I think the merchant in the picture is German, but you probably don't want the medieval German word for purse. Not sure exactly how it's made; once when I was doing a recreation I tried to make one, based on a painting, from a leather frame (to attach to my belt and allow a tongue-and-groove catch at the front) with cloth panels sewn in, but my experiment was a failure (too floppy). It's probably made of heavier leather than my one was. 213.122.22.127 (talk) 19:40, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe the hat is a Judenhut? It's not very pointy though...but the bag reminds me of the usurers in the eighth circle of hell in the Divine Comedy, whose pouches have their family crests on them. Maybe the shells are a family crest. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:49, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt the man on the right is Jewish because of the hand gesture he is using with his right hand. It's similar to the gesture used when crossing or blessing someone or something. Also, he seems to be the one handling the goods, rather than the "money purse" (if that's what it is). Because of the shells, I doubt that either figures are Jewish. Wrad (talk) 20:05, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think he's saying "you owe me two thalers in interest". And the shells might be ruffles, and even if they aren't, I doubt there was prohibition on a Jew going near somebody else's shellfish. Then again, maybe it's the other way round and the gesturing guy is indicating how much he wants to borrow. 213.122.22.127 (talk) 20:54, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Here is an early English translation of the text, with the image. It seems to imply that they are Christians (who are "nowadays" worse usurers than the Jews). But it doesn't describe their equipment. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:10, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Minstrel with purse
If purse design is of particular interest to the OP, here's a useful page [8] ... "details of men's purses" links to a collection of details from paintings. I see something similar to the shells in this detail [9] (of St. Mary Magdalene), but I'm no closer to deciding what type of thing they are. 213.122.22.127 (talk) 21:14, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I am interested especially in the design and make-up of men's purses (money purses) of the Middle Ages. Thanks for leads in this direction. Could a man's money purse of Medieval times be made of leather and have a fancy cover, like say made of camel's hair or the like?--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 21:33, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Erm. If you mean "is this a typical design for a medieval money purse", I would say no, a luxury woolly cover doesn't sound like a typical feature, but I'm not an expert on medieval purses, so I think somebody (e.g. you) should look through all the purses on that site to make sure. If on the other hand you mean "is there anything to stop this from being a medieval money purse", the answer is no, nothing in what you said prevents it (not even the bit about camels, since medieval times happened globally), but I would like to have a good look at this putative medieval purse (if it exists) in order to check it doesn't have a crudely copied Louis Vuitton logo, and isn't made from a kangaroo scrotum, and other such details which may be missing from your description. 213.122.22.127 (talk) 22:21, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This man's purse of the Medieval minstrel looks to be made of leather, including the cover. Could the purse have been made of another fabric? Don't know the time period, however I am guessing 12th or 13th century. Anybody have a better guess? Typically what would have been in this type of man's purse? --Christie the puppy lover (talk) 12:28, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I reckon that's a Pre-Raphaelite wood engraving, which makes the actual picture only a bit over a hundred years old. I suspect the artist was aiming at a renaissance look, which is 15th century at the earliest. Probably 16th century, because his sword hilt is so delicate. Also those round objects in the background look like echoes of the astrolabes, geometrical models, and other scientific objects which sometimes appear in the background of 16th c. paintings. His long hose would be going out of fashion, and his codpiece appears to have fallen off, but maybe he's an unfashionable minstrel or maybe the artist was making it up as he went along. Here [10] is a 16th c. purse made of silk velvet with an iron frame. (This may well be a man's accoutrement; the lion head decorations don't look very feminine.) 81.131.53.31 (talk) 13:16, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If I remember correctly, usury was originally a religious term which prohibited excessive interest rates being applied to people of one's own faith. One of the reasons why Jews became money-lenders was because they could to lend money at interest to Christians without being guilty of usury and thereby going to hell (whereas Christians could not). So the people in this picture are likely both Christian, or at least both of the same faith, otherwise it would not be usury.
bags of that sort were very common among travelers in olden times for the same reason they are still fairly common among motorcyclists - horses (like motorcycles) don't have trunks. I doubt there's anything particularly interesting about the bag; call it a murse and let it go. --Ludwigs218:32, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Is austerity another name for contractionary monetary policy?
Austerity simply means reducing (or eliminating) your budget deficit. Contractionary monetary policy is about reducing money supply. The former is fiscal policy, the latter is monetary policy, so they are definitely different things. They are related, though. The government borrowing and spending increases the money supply (as does any act of borrowing), so not reducing borrowing will tend to reduce (or at least fail to increase) the money supply. There are other factors affecting the money supply, though (the activities of the central bank, for instance) so it is possible to have austerity with a contracting money supply and to have a contracting money supply without austerity. --Tango (talk) 22:33, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! Oops, sorry, I meant to ask whether austerity is another name for contractionary FISCAL policy and if not, what is the difference/relationship between the two. Please answer that question instead! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.186.8.227 (talk) 04:36, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And one could maybe argue that 'contractionary fiscal policy' is usually used within the context of managing inflation and unemployment through the business cycle whereas 'austerity measures' are more aimed at reducing government spending irrespective of the business cycle to lower government debt. Jabberwalkee (talk) 11:04, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Our article, fiscal policy says: "A contractionary fiscal policy occurs when government spending is lower than tax revenue." I would say that that means a contractionary fiscal policy is a policy of maintaining an existing budget surplus whereas austerity is about achieving a budget surplus (or smaller deficit). Austerity measures are changes in policy intended to bring about a reduction in the deficit, so it's all about changing the deficit, whereas a contractionary fiscal policy is about keeping a surplus. --Tango (talk) 17:24, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
August 1
A law-related question: what's the difference between a motion and a pleading?
I guess you could limit the answer to U.S. federal law. I'm looking at FRCP Rule 7, which says that "A request for a court order must be made by motion." But a pleading is also a request for a court order. So, should I understand that a motion is any "request for a court order" that is not a pleading? (That is how I answered the question at pleading (United States), but that was just my guess. Andrew Gradmantalk/WP:Hornbook00:52, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A pleading is a primary document that frames the issues and legal claims asserted in a case; examples in modern U.S. federal civil practice include the Complaint and the Answer. A motion is a request for an order within the context of the case; it can be dispositive (e.g. a motion to dismiss or for summary judgment) or non-dispositive (e.g. a discovery motion, a motion to amend the pleading, or dozens of others). A pleading typically requests a judgment at the end of the case, as opposed to an order within it, although at times the concepts can be combined. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:04, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I see. I suppose my error is to think of a pleading as a "request for a court order," in the sense contemplated by Rule 7's definition of a motion. Although a pleading does contain a request for relief, the judge will not grant that relief until either (1) a jury renders a verdict on the factual questions, or (2) a party submits a motion asking for the judge to make a finding as to a material fact or point of law. How's that sound? Andrew Gradmantalk/WP:Hornbook01:57, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to hear Brad's thoughts about this, but there's a distinction between orders and judgments, which your revised statement acknowledges. What interests me is the origin of that distinction: is it that orders were issued either in equity, or as writs, and their execution was the responsibility of an issuing court, while judgments had independent effect, enforceable by any court that recognized them? That's probably an inaccurate sketch of their origin, but I'd like to know where that distinction originates from historically. Shadowjams (talk) 03:38, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't actually know much about the historical origin of the terms, but I don't think it's a law/equity distinction (historically, an action at law ended with a judgment, while a suit in equity ended with a decree). In modern parlance, a judgment is usually the final ruling of the court at the end of the suit, while an order is something decided in the interim. (The overlap comes in the context of a dispositive motion, such as a motion to dismiss or for summary judgment, which can result in an order along the lines of "it is ordered that the motion to dismiss is granted; therefore, judgment is entered for the defendant"). Newyorkbrad (talk) 03:44, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It probably depends on how you define "General". During the middle ages, the main military commander may have been a "Marshall" or a "Constable", though these may have served the same role as a modern "General" would have. From U.S. history, the youngest "I" could think of offhand was Henry Knox, who made Brigadier General at the ripe age of 27; though the Continental Army was short on men of command ability and Knox's military skills insured his rapid rise through the ranks. --Jayron3206:05, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A medieval king that comes to mind is Baldwin IV of Jerusalem, who was 16 at the Battle of Montgisard (and he was a leper, to make it even more impressive), but he was probably not the actual commander on the field (those were the much older and more experienced Raynald of Chatillon and the master the Knights Templar). I'm sure there are younger examples though. Adam Bishop (talk) 06:18, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If we're going to define General as anyone in command of an entire army, regardless of actual historical rank, Alexander the Great was mustering and commanding armies for his father as early as 17 or 18. --Jayron3206:25, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Again, it kinda depends on how fast and loose you play with a term like "General". How many troops must one command to be considered a General? What role do you have to play in their command? I mean, why wouldn't she be considered a Colonel or a Captain? --Jayron3206:25, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So how could we exclude "Generals In Name Only" where some child was propped up as a figurehead while other folks ordered troop movements? It seems fair to include wartime ranks like Custer's. Edison (talk) 14:24, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In Ken Burns Civil War Documentary I heard the most flattering description of Custer I've ever heard. McClellan was paused at a river, deliberating about how deep it was, and Custer just rode his horse into the river, the water came up the to the shoulder of the horse, then he crossed over to the other bank, and Custer said "It goes up to here general."
As has been said, it depends how you define general. A strong case could be made for Octavian Augustus as the youngest general who had both title and power. He was granted imperium by the senate in 43 BC, at the age of 19, and commanded his own legions (in the sense of having paid for them at least) at the battle of Mutina. Twospoonfuls (ειπέ) 19:59, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Is there a reason why people believe what their religion tells them rather than the truth? I can't think of any examples at the moment... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.91.30.156 (talk) 07:05, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Religions deal in things that can neither be proven nor disproven. Such as, the existence of a supreme being. Such as, the afterlife. Such as, the intercession of dead people to create miracles. Such as, reincarnation. Such as, karma. Most people have some position on these matters; some take it as far as a belief that they are true, others go in the opposite direction and believe they are not true. But the thing both sides have in common is that they cannot prove their positions definitively or disprove the other side. So, my question to you is: what is "the truth", and how do you know? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 07:24, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In short, Judaism maintains that the all mighty creator and supervisor of the entire univere revealed himself publically to millions of people at Mount Sinai -- as such, any and all precepts, regulations, conditions, prohibitions, etc. that eminate from his duly chosen/appointed prophet at the time (Moses) are pre-certified; an analogy would be an American sailor taking orders from the Under Secretary of the Navy while being fully confident that such orders originated from his boss, which in turn came from his boss, all the way up to the President of the United States. It's not exactly similar, though, because the President probably doesn't know or understand military stratgey and relies upon his main general, but the point is that at revelation, the Jewish people were directed to follow Moses. And Judaism maintains that its religion is reality, so in line with Jack's comment above, it all depends upon one's definition of reality. Atheists believe is relative truth, while observant Jews (and people of other faiths, as well, most likely) believe in absolute truth. DRosenbach(Talk | Contribs)12:58, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, time to wheel out Russell's teapot, Falsifiability, Philosophic burden of proof (note: "their respective burdens of proof will often be unequal or asymmetrical"), and the phrase "agnostic conciliation" (mentioned in the teapot article). What I'm saying here is that your "things which can't be disproven" are actually unfalsifiable, and they are the believer's problem, not the skeptic's, and they are amenable to criticism (and, to be fair, not necessarily worthless). 81.131.53.31 (talk) 13:40, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing in the real world can be proven or disproven. Proof is an abstract mathematical concept. However, if we interpret "proof" to mean "overwhelming evidence" then plenty of religious things can be disproven. There are overwhelming amounts of geological, astronomical and biological evidence against the creation story (stories) in Genesis, for example (to the extent that most Christians conveniently ignore Genesis as being "metaphorical" since it is so obviously not true). You cannot disprove the existence of some kind of supreme being, but you can disprove the existence of the specific supreme beings described in a given religious text. --Tango (talk) 15:03, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The opening of the question assumes that 'The Truth' is different from what any specific religion may say. The answer to the question, as stated, is that people do not believe their religion RATHER than the truth - they believe that their religion IS the truth. Whether that belief is reasonable or not is irrelevant to the question.
Gurumaister (talk) 17:32, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) Its presumptions that "people (who?) believe what their religion (which?) tells them rather than the truth (about what?)" are enough to label this a troll question. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 17:36, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Manifest Destiny (Sea to Shining Sea, Westward Ho!)
First off, I know that the Tudor colonists were interested in trying to move westwards from the City of Raleigh (Roanoke), Virginia to Drake's Bay, New Albion. Then, the Stuart Virginia Company with both branches, the Home Counties (London Company) men in the South called Virginia and Westcountrymen (Plymouth, Exeter and Bristol) in the North (called New England in place of New Albion, since the latter wasn't settled by Drake) cordoned off land for themselves on the Atlantic Seaboard, with charters granting them land across the continent to the Pacific Ocean. This was followed by the Royal Proclamation of 1763 which ignored the charters and then the state cessions to the Articles of Confederation government, inherited by the system of Perpetual Union. Both of these cases appear to have been responsible for much violence associated with 1776, 1812 and 1861. Obviously, a combination of these issues led to the horizontal splitting of the country into two general regions in the 1860s "Civil War". What I wish to know, is if there are Wikipedia links, or outside website links which can show or describe for me the trails from colonists in the east into their transformation as pioneers in the west. Basically, what I am interested in, is the relative majority origins of Easterners (i.e. the 13 original states) in acquired territories, first trans-Appalachian, then post-Mississippi. For instance, Kentucky is obviously Virginian (but then so are many other places, as evidenced by William Henry Harrison's family in the Old Northwest), as Tennessee is North Carolinian (but Wikipedia's state cession map says New York even claimed this far south; who knows if any New Yorkers actually moved there?). I have seen the overlapping claims from the original 13 on the state cessions maps, while the claims of the competing Confederate and Union governments (as heirs to the non-violent movements in Congress for more land and the violence of Bleeding Kansas) sought to turn the West into their own, but I'm looking for more individual, state-based roots of the people who moved westwards. That's because the movement to retain slavery did not necessarily square with southern origins, as the non-slaving foundation of the State of Jefferson (proto-Colorado) by Democrats (i.e. southerners) attests. For instance, I know that Missouri provided most of the original population of Kansas, Free-Soilers notwithstanding. I know that Arizona was populated chiefly by Texans. Lyndon B. Johnson's family moved to Texas from Alabama, as I believe also did Bill Clinton's. There is the Mormon story, from Vermont (where the Smiths and relatives settled from Massachusetts), to New York, to Ohio, to Missouri, to Utah. I understand that the Constitution of California is supposed to be a hybrid of New York and Iowa; when William Walker, of Virginia origins, born in Tennessee, took over Baja California and Sonora, he used the Louisiana Constitution and this impetus translated into the Arizona secession alongside the Texans, onto the Confederate side. Many of California's early people were in fact southerners and while I have read that Virginia provided people and place names like Berkeley, Richmond and Orange, I must assume Marylanders were there as well (along with the Yankee heritage many take as absolutely for granted, due to San Francisco's eccentricities). The fact that Los Angeles (and San Diegeo, which then comprised all of Southern California with one senate seat, contrasted by with Unionists San Francisco and San Jose in Northern California under their own senate seat) fought on behalf of Arizona and the Confederacy, makes me compare it to Marylanders fighting for Virginia as well as against the suspension of habeas corpus; one can thus see the Colorado River as the West Coast equivalent to the Potomac and the Rockies to the Appalachians. There was even a pre-Civil War movement to share California with Yankees and this is what caused the split between SoCal and NorCal today. Could it be argued that California is largely the West Coast equivalent to the land between Washington, DC and New York, of Chesapeake and Mid-Atlantic? I saw a map of the early highways in the USA which link New York with San Francisco; DC and Los Angeles appear to be at a similar alignment from East to West. Then there is the linking up of Boston with Seattle, between the TV shows Cheers and Frasier (I'm assuming this isn't putting Kelsey Grammar's character into a "fish out of water" story). Does this make sense? Oregon Country was explored by Virginians Lewis & Clark, but the first settlement was by New Yorkers working for the Astors, who then built Fort Astoria, just like there is the Waldorf-Astoria in New York. Portland, Oregon is named for Portland, Maine. Wyoming is named for Wyoming Valley in Pennsylvania. Hawaii was supposed to have been the project of those from Massachusetts. Are there others? I can't think of southerners having a presence in overseas territories of the Pacific until the Philippine War and then only as soldiers and sailors, perhaps veterans but I don't know. I know that Panama was largely southern in origin, as the logical progression of William Walker's ventures in Nicaragua would seem to indicate, despite Vanderbilt's money. Please provide all of the examples you can think of. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.111.15.164 (talk) 09:19, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
At sites such as Ancestry.com (subscription) you can view all the census return up through 1930, wna many of the census include the place of birth of each person, allowing tracking of movement from the east coast westward. Much of your essay states as fact what appears to be original research that some later controversy was the result of some early colonial proclamation or policy, which might not be the case. Edison (talk) 14:21, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Donald W. Meinig's books The Shaping of America: A Geographical Perspective on 500 Years of History, Volume 1: Atlantic America, 1492-1800 and The Shaping of America: A Geographical Perspective on 500 Years of History, Volume 2: Continental America, 1800-1867 devote quite a bit of attention to the "folkways" of westward migration--which groups from where tended to migrate which way, etc. You mention the Oregon Country. Meinig describes in some detail how the early American migrations to Oregon tended to be from the Upland South, as well as from New England. His books have a number of maps showing the main migratory routes (which were very criss-crossed). Fort Astoria, by the way, was rather a flash-in-the-pan, US-wise--the Pacific Fur Company may have been run by New Yorkers, but it was staffed in the field mostly by Canadians and French Canadians, and within a year became British. Fort Astoria has little to do with the actual American settlement of the Oregon Country. Also, New Englanders, especially from Boston, where early on the west coast as part of the maritime fur trade and, later, as sort of early venture capitalists--as opposed to the more rural-oriented Upland Southerners. As a result, in the Far West a great many cities and place names in general have a New England origin. But this does not mean New Englanders were the only folks around, nor even the dominant folks. Pfly (talk) 05:41, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Linguistic studies have confirmed the hodgepodge of western settlement described above as well. Most books which look at various regional dialects in America usually note the stark difference east of the Appalachian mountains and the general homogeneity west of the appalachians. While there are general trends (for example, unique dialects in Texas and Oklahoma) you'd be hard pressed to identify a person as being from Oregon or California or Montana or even Iowa based solely on their accent; one can readily often identify a person from different parts of individual states in the east solely by the variety of English they speak. This is usually because people from different parts of the British isles settled in very specific parts of the east, and those areas tended to maintain unique regional accents for centuries. On the other hand, as people moved westward, they tended to intermingle, and so lose their unique regional character. North American English regional phonology discusses the connection between regional dialects and settling patterns somewhat; you could follow the sources listed in that artcile to learn even more. --Jayron3205:53, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Modern accents in the U.S. have very little to do with ancestry, however, there are very specific accents even in the U.S. The U.K.'s variety of English accents is vastly broader than the Americas, but even then a very in tune ear can identify a large variety of American accents. Shadowjams (talk) 07:44, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What I want to know, is if the Civil War lines from East to West, Atlantic to Pacific, are indicative of the general migration across the continent. This seems sensible, except that not all states with majority Southern origins decided to stand alongside South Carolina. Maryland, the lower Midwest, Kansas, Colorado and southern California were all on the verge of Confederate secession, or were at least majority Copperhead. West Virginia and New Mexico are unique to have changed hands during the war in extraordinary circumstances: WV seceded from the CSA and NM was conquered by Arizonans. It might be sensible to see that WV stood in the westward path of Pennsylvania, which would lend itself toward Unionism, but then again, it's hard to tell, since the Harrisons made themselves profitable being both Whigs and Republicans, the only truly Southern Republican family to have captured the White House, unless Nixon's Delaware origins before California can be considered Southern as well. Do Midwesterners today value their Southern origins as much as their Northeastern? Virginians were leaders of the pack in Ohio, but all I see is the plaque commemorating Yankees from Massachusetts, for the Northwest Ordinance, etc. I suppose part of my intent is to trace the Southern heritage outside the South, since the Mayflower descendents apparently get all of the press for their movements across the continent. The example of the Mormon migration west is perfectly illustrative of what I am getting at. That was of Yankee origins, as was the industrial linkage between New York and California. Consequently, I'm having a hard time finding people who know anything about America that is accepted as Southern other than what is Jerry Springer stereotypical or determinant upon slavery and Rosa Parks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.111.15.164 (talk) 12:56, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As was pointed out they didn't necessarily mix - southern Ohio will likely have more plaques than northern Ohio. Southern Illinois was mainly settled by Southerners while northern Illinois was settled by Northerners and they still have different accents today (Midland American English in the South and Inland Northern American English in the North). But despite the romantic myth of Copperhead-ism, Southern Illinois provide large numbers of troops to the Union. One company of Illinois Confederates is easily identifiable compared to 259,000 Union soldiers from Illinois. The later migrations north such as the automotive boom and the Great Migration brought new Southern influences. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 14:35, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I am not looking for discussions on language, but on political progressions and subcultural manifestos in the progress of cross-country expansion. 68.111.15.164 (talk) 02:51, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
2010 Census Bureau on ancestry, apart from race and also racial classification
Is it true that there will be no more maps of American ancestry compiled by the Census Bureau (wasn't there only one [2000] on record anyway?), apart from whether one is American (aka Anglo, of any race) or Hispanic (which they would claim American for themselves, of any race)? <soapboxing removed>—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.111.15.164 (talk) 10:08, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've taken the liberty of removing the soap-boxing that is actually quite irrelevant to your question. The Ref Desk is not a soap box for your views on race and the census, I'm afraid. To answer your only question there that I saw, in 2010 they eliminated the "Ancestry" question on the census. I'm not sure they ever explained why in detail. The process for coming up with questions about race/ethnicity/ancestry for the Census are basically guaranteed to be controversial and, in the end, unsatisfying for just about everyone involved. --Mr.98 (talk) 19:58, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't read the original soapboxing portion, and I don't want to encourage that. However, note that the race categories used on the census have varied considerably over the last 200+ years. There's a lot of books that discuss that progression, and it's an unremarkable artifact of the then current culture. If you want to prove a point about something there are much better places to look than at the census. As for "maps", the now public individual census data (identifiable census data isn't released for 70 years-I think-in the U.S.) is all based on counties, and sometimes townships and more specific lineage. Censuses of that time period (and maybe today... I don't know) include "Father's birth place" and "Mother's birth place", which gives some idea of immigration patterns. Shadowjams (talk) 03:27, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The question in particular is about the "Ancestry" box, which you could fill in with anything you wanted. This of course had the benefit of being flexible (unlike the race/ethnicity categories) at the detriment of being rather arbitrary (if you didn't fill in one of the same magic ancestry terms as the other people of your grouping, you might as well have just written down "Martian"). I don't know why they got rid of it. My loose guess is because the data would have been pretty hard to decipher. Anyway, the rant bit was about how "La Raza" were responsible for all things negative in the world and was praising the value of very outdated racial categories (e.g. Mongoloid, Negroid) and things of that nature. It seemed easily and appropriately snipped off.
The tricky thing about anything racial/ethnic/ancestry based on the Census is that you have a number of factors coming together. You have the sociologist/anthropologist point of view that is trying to make the answers "scientific" in some way. You have the practical political point of view that is related to how funds are divvied up. You have the social identity point of view which is related to how groups classify themselves (e.g. notable objections have been made to classifying Arab-Americans as "White", Caribbeans as "African-American", from the so-classified groups themselves). And you have the point of view of the Census statistics people who need things to be relatively conforming in terms of information in order to make any sense of it. The sum of these factors is almost certainly going to be a system that pleases no one and conforms to absolutely zero popular or scientific notions of race/ethnicity/ancestry (like the current one, which is a weird mix of place of origin, racial categories, and overlaid "ethnicity" that only applies if you are from South America). --Mr.98 (talk) 12:35, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I was trying to get an assessment of what kinds of maps of American demographics we will be seeing (compared to the plethora of examples in the 2000 Census as shown here in Wikipedia articles), now that European ancestries are omitted and Asian ethnicites are accounted for as racial categories. I was describing the changing nature of identity politics and trying to understand it. It seems that all European blood is conflated into White "American" now, whereas this was only the descendents of British colonists in the 2000 Census, while Blacks, despite having an English American heritage, are themselves still racially segregated in the 2010 Census (as are the Indians), whereas Hispanics of any race are grouped together. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.111.15.164 (talk) 12:41, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
White was not only "descendents of British colonists in the 2000 Census". It was as it is now any self-identified "white". the official description in 2000 was "White. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "White" or report entries such as Irish, German, Italian, Lebanese, Near Easterner, Arab, or Polish." 75.41.110.200 (talk) 14:00, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, there was White American and White Hyphenated American. Now, there is White American, not-Hispanic and White American, Hispanic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.111.15.164 (talk) 16:33, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Where are you getting this from? The 2000 census had "White" as a single category, and there was no "hispanic/latino" category at all in the "race" section (it was an "ethnicity" that would be layered onto whatever the "race" was). linkMore details. The only place people used "American" was in the write-in Ancestry category (which was just evidence of how silly the question was, since it was primarily white people in Tennessee who decided that they were the true "Americans"). --Mr.98 (talk) 17:32, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Tennessee, Kentucky, Arkansas, and West Virginia, sorry. See the map on page 8 of this PDF to see what I am referring to. See here for a full discussion of the results. Anyway, it is silly that these people would say they have no ethnicity other than "American." It misunderstands the question, either deliberately or out of ignorance. Or, to be more clear, it's the reason the whole question of "ancestry" altogether was problematic. --Mr.98 (talk) 00:44, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
These people are the same as Canadians, or Australians, or New Zealanders. They have a creole ethnicity, rather than an Old World one. I understand that most of their heritage is from elsewhere, but then so too was Rome's, such as from Greece or Phoenicia. It is arrogance on your part to completely discount an entire people. How cool it is to be anti-American and "overeducated" in nothing but snobbery. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.111.15.164 (talk) 01:03, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm disregarding the question, not the people. There is a difference. Most of everyone's heritage is from everywhere, especially "La Raza," who you heaved so much vitriol towards. --Mr.98 (talk) 02:06, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mwalcoff, that it took so long for a truly educated response like yours, is not unexpected from the cesspool of Wikipedia's ivory tower set. Thank you for the diamond in the rough! 68.111.15.164 (talk) 02:48, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Freedom of panorama
Outside the Wikimedia sphere, I can find little discussion of the pros and cons of any form of Freedom of panorama, not at all helped by a lack of a universal term for the issue. Given the differences internationally, I am surprised not to find much at all. Any "reliable source" no matter what viewpoint would be extremely helpful - on issues particularly concerning whether it is "fair" on sculptors, architects, or content users. I'm in the UK, but discussion from anywhere would be great. I hasten to add this is not a legal issue, I am researching it from a purely academic perspective. Thanks. Grandiose(me, talk, contribs) 11:15, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Freedom of panorama is not universal and differs by country-specific copyright law. In some cases, taking a picture, say of a statue outdoors, is your picture to use as you see fit. In others, if the author's copyright has not expired (that is, the artist hasn't been dead already for 70 years, typically), then you need the author's-sculptor's/heirs'/estate's agreement to assign you rights to use the image. An extreme example of the latter would be paying Bartholdi and his descendants royalties for reuse of every picture of the Statue of Liberty until 70 years after Bartholdi's death, so that would have been through 1974 or 1975. In some cases it's date of death. In others it's full years from end of year in which death occurred. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK19:27, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So, Atomium pictures will likely enter the public domain around 2075 or so. Generally speaking, copyright conventions uphold copyright laws mutually. For example, if you translate a Swedish book and publish it in English in the U.S., the original author is holder of the copyright to your translation ("derivative work"), lock stock and barrel, if the Swedish work was first published in Sweden. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK19:35, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
What sources can you tell me that describes Canada's allegiance to Britain as secession from America, instead of an American secession from Britain, which Canada became part of? Consider what I mean from the Patriot perspective; the violation by the Crown of the colonial charters which were from sea-to-sea by giving land back to "Quebec" and "Indiana" instead, with Parliament taxing the hell out of the Americans to pay for it, quartering Hessians in Americans' homes, etc. Americans won Canada from the French, but the British government gave it right back, while denying the Anglo-Saxon freedoms inherent in American customs. This translated into Canadian loyalty and American rebellion, but the fact remains that Canada was American in between being French and being what it is now. Obviously, American attempts to enforce hegemony were disasters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.111.15.164 (talk) 13:36, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The term you are using for various countries are ambiguous. "America" is not a country when you are talking about the history of the US and Canada. Canada and Mexico are also part of North America. Canada is not part of "Britain." See History of Canada, which will help you in clarifying the questions, and in clarifying what years you are asking about. Edison (talk) 14:12, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Your question is somewhat confused, but in the late 1770s, the word "Canada" basically meant Quebec / eastern Ontario, and was inhabited mainly by conservative Catholic French-speakers, the majority of whom had no particular interest in joining with the predominantly English and Protestant 13 colonies in any rebellion. There was no political framework encompassing all of British North America, and Canada couldn't be said to have "seceded" from anything in particular... AnonMoos (talk) 15:10, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Another way of saying it is that the thirteen colonies that became the US separated themselves from all the other colonies (Upper and Lower Canada, Nova Scotia/Cape Breton, Newfoundland, the ones in the Caribbean). Why didn't those join? Why not Florida? The thirteen colonies did try to convince Nova Scotia to join, I believe...that one was at least historically and culturally similar to the rest of the thirteen. They also tried to capture Lower Canada during the revolution. But as AnonMoos said, "Canada" was never governed by "America", they were all separate colonies, and thirteen of them happened to rebel. Adam Bishop (talk) 16:36, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's also noteworthy that there was a very large migration of people who were loyal to the crown from the thirteen colonies into Ontario and New Brunswick, so which colonies stayed under the crown was kind of sorted by self-selection. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 19:03, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Two corrections:
Florida did not initial join in the U.S. because, at the time, its status was confused, to say the least. It was nominally a British colony (two, actually, see West Florida and East Florida; but most of the people living their thought of themselves as Spanish, the area having only very recently changed hands from Spain to England. During the Revolutionar War, the western half revert back to Spanish control, and the Treaty of Versailles returned the rest to Spain. Florida didn't become American until the Adams-Onís Treaty, which went into effect in 1821.
The colony of Newfoundland actually predates all of what would later become the United States, by several decades, as well as the rest of Canada. It was distinctly seperate from Canada until 1949.
However, given even that, the OP's initial assumption is basically wrong, Canada didn't secede from America. The thirteen colonies were functionally independent prior to the Revolutionary war, and even after it, under the Articles of Confederation acted more like 13 independant countries, and probably thought of themselves as such. The only real sentiment among what would later become Canada towards joining the U.S. was in Nova Scotia. History_of_Nova_Scotia#Politics discusses this, and also discusses why it never got much momentum in that direction. --Jayron3203:09, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm simply asking if anybody here knows of any REFERENCE which covers this pro-Whig point of view of American operations in Canada, detailing the collusion of the British government with the French and Indians, along with the imperial bureaucracy which carved themselves new colonies out of Nova Scotia and Quebec, inviting new colonists from Britain to settle there with them. By declaring loyalty to the British Government, the Canadian colonies reverted to their independence in shaking off of the hegemony imposed upon them by the English colonists, because the British government was more lenient toward the French and Indians after 1763. This is entirely entwined in the reasons for the war in the first place and continued to be important, an issue to resolve for good in 1812. The issues subsided because London thenceforth only had to suppress the French and not the rest of the former colonies, Canadian Rebellions notwithstanding. It seems justified here that Patrick Henry compared what needed to be done with George III, to Charles I having his Cromwell and Caesar his Brutus. All of the hard work in subjecting Canada to English dominion was the blood, sweat and tears of the Americans, which was sold out by cowards in Parliament (this I read from Winston Churchill's own pen!), who decided to tax Americans instead and send Hessians to enforce the power of London over them. Why any here at the Humanities reference desk is confused by this, must be because they've never taken American History, or have read about it from opposing sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.111.15.164 (talk) 12:35, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
" By declaring loyalty to the British Government, the Canadian colonies reverted to their independence in shaking off of the hegemony imposed upon them by the English colonists..." Huh? Did any of that actually happen? 75.41.110.200 (talk) 13:55, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If there exists a reference for this sort of opinion, it would not have come from anyone who had studied Canadian and American history and historiography. (Honestly I'm not even sure what the question is anymore, since this second post is different from the original.) Adam Bishop (talk) 14:09, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Adam, this ought not to get simply to the point of "I'm American" and "I'm Canadian", so we'll simply be jingoistic about it. There was a real effort by English colonists in what became America, to conclude the Hundred Years War on colonial soil, against the French colonists in Canada, as well as the Manifest Destiny to reach the land claimed by Drake on the Pacific, loyal to Elizabethan English ideals. When it was over in 1763, the British Government decided to go easy on the French and Indians, while trying to enforce Stuart-level absolutism onto the English colonists. This pissed off the English colonists, apart from those with a pension from the British Government (both the governors and redcoats), who then supplied the garrison manpower in Halifax and elsewhere in the newly acquired British possessions of Canada. Nova Scotia (Arcadia) was only lightly English, which is why New Brunswick still has French language recognition. Quite possibly, there was a Continental arrogance in the Georgians which made them partial to the French and contracted the Hessians against the English, which is perhaps echoed in Prince Albert's snobbery about English dukedoms of York and Kent vs being a Duke of Saxony. That's another story though, about the motivations for tyranny over the colonists, who became increasingly Cromwellian in outlook. It may not be considered good for political capital to look into pro-English American POV about war on French Canada, but this is an academic inquiry and the issues relating to British corruption are taken on face value by most people, in relation to the 1776 conflicts. I am reviewing the connection it had with the War of 1812 and am sure that despite Canadian pride, I'm pretty sure it is real enough for Canadians to have the chip on their shoulder about America. Get my drift? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.111.15.164 (talk) 16:45, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Quite frankly, no, I don't, but perhaps Adam does, and can explain it to the rest of us. It seems somewhat unlikely that Canadians would have a chip on their shoulders about a perspective they have never held. Bielle (talk) 02:01, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, what a shock. Only yesterday, it was Bush Americana and the Canadians were huffing and puffing, telling America to back off and leave them alone, citing the War of 1812 amongst other things as evidence of unbridled Yankee aggression. Here you are trying to say it is different. Why is that, because Obama is The Man now and you love him, thus America, instead? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.111.15.164 (talk) 02:37, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is strange; I don't recall any Canadian claiming to "love" Obama here. Also, remember that to us in Canada, even the American Left is still Right to us. We in British Columbia have a liberal party that is right wing. Aaronite (talk) 04:26, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not saying I'm right because I'm Canadian or you're wrong because you're American. But I think you are introducing things that don't really have anything to do with North American history. The Hundred Years' War? Did anyone ever think of it like that? That war was three to four hundred years earlier, and even in the simplest terms was never really about "French" vs. "English". This also completely overlooks the very real and very current war between France and England in the eighteenth century, of which the struggle over North America was a huge part. Why do you want to make it about the Hundred Years' War when there was a perfectly relevant war already occurring? Also, was Manifest Destiny really about reaching Drake's discoveries on the Pacific? Had Manifest Destiny even been vocalized as a concept in the eighteenth century? Slaking one's thirst in the Arctic Ocean was presumably not on the minds of the American colonists in the eighteenth century...they were worried about settling land that the Quebec Act had denied them, but all the way to the Pacific? They didn't even know what was out there yet. You are, I think, correct that the British tried to appease the French and Indians, and the American colonists were definitely angry about it, but I'm not sure where you are going after that. Of course Halifax had a British garrison...but so did Boston, and other American cities. (Nova Scotia was pretty English by then - or Scottish, really. The Acadians had mostly left/been expelled. The inland parts were still rather French, but when American Loyalists moved there, New Brunswick was created to accomodate them. NB has French-language recognition because that is a much later development by the provincial government. Ontario still has a lot of French people too, they are just less-officially recognized.) As for a "Cromwellian outlook", there was another discussion here recently (was it also by you?) about early colonists being from pro-Cromwellian families, and that the Revolution could be considered an extension of the civil war in the seventeenth century (surely this makes more sense, anyway, than a connection the Hundred Years' War). But nevertheless, after all this, it still remains that each colony was distinct. Virginia was distinct from New York, from Georgia, from Carolina, from Newfoundland, from Bermuda, from Jamaica, from Quebec. The thirteen colonies weren't even governed from one place before the revolution. They never had any control over each other, much less over the colonies that didn't join them in 1775. Of course there are reasons for that - the thirteen were more culturally and historically similar than the others. And they did think the Canadian colonies should also be free from tyranny, whether they wanted to be or not (hence the invasions during the Revolution, the War of 1812, and afterwards). But Canada was never governed by the American colonies, and what we are trying to figure out is why you think they were. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:26, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Indiana Mammoth Internal Improvement Act says that the state was unable to pay its debtors in London, but it doesn't link to London or say which one. Am I to assume the capital of the UK, or was a North American London important in banking? I have a hard time imagining the government of frontier 1830s Indiana borrowing from across the Atlantic, but at least the only London, Indiana is a tiny community near Shelbyville that almost certainly wasn't settled in the 1830s. Moreover, the citations on the article are largely to print sources; while one citation for London goes to an online book, the cited pages say nothing about London. Nyttend (talk) 14:26, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
British investors provided a lot of capital for "internal improvements" in the 19th-century U.S. Presumably bonds were issued, and some of the bonds were bought in the U.K. It wasn't any more outlandish than investing in "developing markets" around the world today. AnonMoos (talk) 14:59, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
London, Ontario wasn't important for banking...it is (or was) a relatively important place for the insurance industry (home of the London Life Insurance Company, but that was much later. In the 1830s it wasn't really important for anything, except for possibly stopping a hypothetical American invasion from Detroit. Adam Bishop (talk) 16:23, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A quick look at the London (England) Times show many entries where shares and bonds from the US were traded particular it appears for states to raise money. So I believe it should link to London. MilborneOne (talk) 17:03, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think the core of the question lies in the fact that most of the world does not need to specify the country of a well known city. E.g. only Americans ever say "Paris, France", the rest of the world just days "Paris" on the reasonable assumption that everyone knows that Paris is in France. This is an understandable difference as America is full of towns that take their names from other well know towns/cities across the world whereas this has not been the habit in most of the rest of the world.
Gurumaister (talk) 17:29, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Really, so only in America are there multiple towns with the same name? Which city was meant to the 2nd century BC person when they said they were going to Alexandria? Which Caesarea was the Roman citizen talking about? Which Tripoli are the Marines going to after the Halls of Montezuma? Which Antioch would first century travelers have meant when refering to that city. The problem of multiple cities having identical names is quite old, and not unique to America. It is all about context... --Jayron3202:46, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's also not limited to the US, although I suppose by "America" people also include Canada (I was in London the other day and could have taken a short drive to Paris, or Stratford, or a dozen other ambiguously named places). Adam Bishop (talk) 14:02, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. 17 US states have a town called Berlin (2 states have >1 Berlin), 14 states have a Paris, 13 states have a Moscow, 8 states have a London and 8 states have a Madrid. Googlemeister (talk) 15:50, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hey all, I'm due to start work on an "open data" project of my choosing tomorrow, and I'm thinking of going with a single webpage to provide a detailed list of Coalition commitments made on the 21 May, 2010 linked to the new legislation.gov.uk site, and the newish services.parliament.gov.uk site offering a permanent record of successes, failures and timelines of work on those commitments. Well, that's the idea anyway. What I wanted to know is, has anyone seen anyone else's attempts to do this? I hate to repeat work already going on :) Thanks in advance, - Jarry1250[Humorous? Discuss.]19:14, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think something similar was at least described or envisioned, if not comprehensively executed, in some of the posts to Liberal Democrat Voice, Conservative Home, or Labour List, which of course have partisan orientations. It might be worth comparing the results of your attempted objective evaluation of a particular promise's fate with the judgement of contributors to those lists. —— Shakescene (talk) 00:52, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I-how would the inside of insulae be laid out, the article gives little information on details, in particular how might stairs be arranged, and how big would a single apartment be, would it be arranged to resemble a house, and would there be an open atrium in the middle? Also was what I heard about shops all around the bottom floor and a little wine bar on each corner true?
II-for a typical not very well off family living in such an insula, the sort that doesn't seem to be about to fall down at any moment, in mid 3rd century rome, how rich would they have to be to afford it, what sort of jobs might they have and would they be able to afford any servants, would they have any chance of saving up to buy a real house somewhere? Did they used to be able to lock doors then? How easy would it be to break in? Where abouts in the city might they live?
III-supposing the father of the family then lost his job, what might happen to the family, how well might they be able to live whilst he is looking for another, would they mind a friend or relative offering to lend them some money for a while?
IV-might they, and would they be able to, name one of their children after someone other than a close relative, and how would they most likely do so, which name would the copy?
V-what might a couple with young children be able to do for fun?
These aren't questions that can be answered in detail at the Reference Desk. A used copy of Florence Dupont, Daily Life in Ancient Rome (1994) will be available at ebay and elsewhere. Try googling " Daily life in ancient Rome ", too, for abbreviated on-line information. --Wetman (talk) 21:21, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For question IIe, a quick search on Google for "roman key" results in several images and a lengthy article as the first result. I suggest doing some more background reading about the period. 92.24.185.100 (talk) 17:07, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A dictionary of Greek and Roman antiquities by Sir William Smith, which is freely available from Google Books, mentions "insula" many times and gives a lot of detail that you may find useful. 92.24.185.100 (talk) 19:04, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Do you mean old copies of the newspaper, or do you mean souvenirs like T-shirts, mugs, baseball caps, etc? If the former, you can buy them through dealers in old newspapers. If the latter, the reason you're not finding them is that the paper doesn't make them. You can go to cafepress dot com (link is blacklisted) and create your own. --Viennese Waltztalk 08:28, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't worry about it overmuch, there are millions of copyrighted images being used without permission on T-shirts all over the world. The Chicago Sun Times has got better things to do than chase down someone wearing an unlicensed T-shirt with their logo on. --Viennese Waltztalk 13:10, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How do you know? The Chicago Sun-Times did make souvenirs at one point or another. I don't want to spark any soapboxes or debates to that matter.24.90.202.42 (talk) 18:17, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Have you thought of visiting the newspaper in person. I am pretty sure its still there, near Michigan Avenue, overlooking the Chicago River as always. They may have a gift shop at the paper's headquarters itself, or maybe a company store where you can buy Sun-Times logoed items. --Jayron3201:53, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have visited the Chicago Sun-Times in person. This was back in March 1999. They did have a gift store. But now, the paper's headquarters are inside a new building. Their original building was demolished in 2004.24.90.202.42 (talk) 03:28, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. Have you visited the new building? (For the record, I only lived in Chicago from 1998-2000, so I was unaware of the recent history of their offices). --Jayron3203:33, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I was recently driving through Fort Ann, New York when I drove by an old log fort. It occurred to me that they often have a similar design, or at least the forts from the colonial days do. The design is such that the first/bottom floor has a smaller footprint than the second/upper floor. The upper floor is usually about 18-24" wider and longer than the bottom floor with trusses holding up the edges. Why is this? Dismas|(talk)10:50, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Edit: I've been going through Commons images of forts trying to find an example and haven't been successful, so maybe these aren't forts that I'm seeing but some other colonial structure... Sorry. Dismas|(talk)10:52, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fort Randolph
Is this (see image) the type of fort you're talking about? If so, the overhang was to provide a protected field of fire against attackers along the walls or at the base of the towers. When this sort of thing was temporarily added to a castle, it was called hoarding. —KevinMyers12:18, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Yes, like the pic but without the walls. These things I've seen are simply the house type structure without the walls coming out from the sides. Dismas|(talk)13:52, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
When I was 22 years old, I wanted nothing more than to alleviate the callous disregard of man for man, for animals, for the environment. I was a vegan, and I had never owned a car. I lived in hippie bastions like san francisco in small communes with tattooed people who were totally cool. I had a lot of respect for women. I recently found a plan I wrote for myself from that time. The most important point on that plan was not to own anything, since things hold you hostage; own nothing = freedom.
and now, a mere five years out, I'm wearing a watch that cost in excess of a thousand dollars, I eat meat, wear leather, lust after objects such as expensive designer leather goods and a Mercedes car that has literally the worst emissions and gas consumption of any car in its class or any class, and think of women, for example my wife, as not to be trusted, but to be ridden to success like a horse. So what the fuck happened? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.153.179.184 (talk) 13:05, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's not an opinion, I'm asking literally what the fuck happened. It's true that you can't give medical analysis, but that's not true of existential enelysis. Or is Philosophy a fraud, and not a science, social or otherwise? 84.153.179.184 (talk) 13:46, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm asking you what happened, not for advice or philosophizing. If you need more information to be able to tell me what happened, then ask for it. If you can't determine what happened (no matter what clarification you might ask for), does that suggest to you that a human being is a magical and mystical spiritual entity that, hardly confined to three cubic feet as his physical presence would trick us into believing, and thus hardly comparable with any other item of three cubic feet, such as a computer server, instead is an entirely unworldly thing that does not answer to any science, but only to philosophy, religion, mysticism, and subjective reactions? Because if you do think that, it would explain your contribution. 84.153.179.184 (talk) 14:05, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
don't pretend that you only give references here. If I asked about the change in any other item of under three cubic feet, you would not doubt that any references could possibly explain the change in workings of that item. So do I exist on some irrational plane that makes me inherently, irreconcilably different from any other item in the world? 84.153.179.184 (talk) 14:13, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is really not an appropriate Ref Desk question. If you are looking for introspective analysis, you'd probably do better off talking with a professional along these lines, or at least a good friend, or at least a good book. We don't know you, and we don't really want to know you. We don't know if your lifestyle change is due to your own internal drives, your own hypocrisy, or the failure of the first model you approached. But we can't help you much on here. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:16, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I respect that 98% of you might not know what has happened. Three of you have already come forward with that statement. I would like to hear from the 2% who would have an answer since they know the workings of H. Sapiens Sapiens as well as an Intel chip designer knows the Intel chips. I kindly ask more people to refrain from repeating this sentiment. If you don't have an answer, then let the question languish. Either it will be answered, or it will remain open. Surely we can do without 10 people repeating the sentiment that it is an unanswerable question. That sentiment is plainly unscientific. 84.153.179.184 (talk) 14:22, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You haven't had three people come forward saying they don't know the answer (we wouldn't waste our time saying that). You've had three people come forward to say that it isn't possible for anyone to know the answer. We do not have sufficient information to answer your question and could only get that information by holding a detailed interview, which we are not in the business of doing. Nobody knows human beings as well as a chip designer knows their chips. Human beings are far more complicated than computer chips and our (that is, the human race's) knowledge of how the mind works is extremely limited. Mr.98 has given you a few possible explanations for why somebody's priorities would change, but there is no way we can possibly know which, if any, of those possibilities is the case for you. --Tango (talk) 14:29, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, that is so wrong and unscientific. For starters, human beings are not "far more complicated" than computer chips: on the contrary, they are FAR simpler. The entire human being is coded in 650 Megabytes of information. How many megabytes do you think Intel has, in total, among all its employees working on chip design? Obviously the human being is far less complicated. Now, you argue that your, excuse me, you make the laughable argument that you speak for the human race when you say your knowledge of how the mind works is extremely limited. Just listen to yourself: "I think I speak for the entire human race when I say I don't understand the mind". That's what it boils down to. Mr. 98 has given some suggestions, sure. I welcome the suggestions from someone who does understand how the human mind works (maybe they will need to pose some questions of me), so they can give their definitive take. Anything less is simply unscientific. 84.153.179.184 (talk) 14:58, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That is the data size of a baby. (I might add something or other about complexity not being the same as data size, but I think it would be distracting.) People (at least grown-up ones) are all awkwardly different, and we would need to ask you a lot of questions, and make a lot of guesses, and charge you a lot of money ... oh wait. I am puzzled and suspicious about your motives in asking the reference desk to perform what promises to be a lengthy job of psychoanalysis on you when you can apparently afford a proper shrink. Wurstgeist (talk) 15:18, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why are you comparing the human genome to the designers of the chip? You should compare the human genome to the blueprints of the chip (compressed as much as possible). I have researched the current state of scientific understanding of the human mind in quite some detail. While I am far from understanding it all, I don't need to understand it all to know that there are still a very large number of unanswered questions (because I've read the work of lots of experts saying so). --Tango (talk) 15:20, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Presumably met your future wife, got some regular sex, and the most primitive instinctual part of your brain overruled all the idealistic (and, honestly, unrealistic) expectations that you had created for yourself with the perhaps more advanced but certainly less powerful rational parts of your brain. You're a human male, you will do anything for a woman. Civilization is a thin veneer. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:22, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well my guess is that whatever motivated the veganism and the communes was the same kind of contempt for other people that underlies the OP's new Patrick Bateman persona (the whole story sounds made-up, or severely exaggerated, but I must assume good faith), and that the change is not such a radical one after all, except externally. The claimed desire to alleviate the callous disregard of man for man could in fact be a way of looking down on people and thinking of them as evil automatons, which makes joining in with this percieved way of the world a faily small leap. Wurstgeist (talk) 15:35, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In short, worldly life happened. See personal identity. This does not need to be an opinion question. Your mind probably decided it wanted to abandon non-material ethics in favour of...let me guess...hedonism? Anyway, I would disagree that humans are far more simplistic than computers. The possible interconnections between neurons, synapses, etc. approaches infinity, and a computer would require the ability to learn to come anywhere close. Can a robot decide what it wants to do in life? ~AH1(TCU)15:32, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The analogy between a human mind and a computer chip is fundamentally flawed. Computers operate in binary mode. Switches are on, or off. A circuit is open, or it is not. Human brains are made up of a vast number of neurons, with each neuron connected to 10,000 other neurons, resulting in an interconnectedness measured on the order of 10^12 - 10^15. Because brains and computers operate in fundamentally different manners (indeed humans are not even really all that sure exactly how many of the finer operations of the brain work), comparing a computer chip to a human brain is like trying to compare a solar panel with a tunafish sandwich. Googlemeister (talk) 15:45, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
<sigh...> It seems you went from Kohlberg stage 3 to Kohlberg stage 4, fixating on a certain subset of conventional mores as authoritative. basically you gave up on the stage 3 idealism where one believes that by 'being good' one gets rewards from the social realm, and moved on to a viewpoint where you expect to get rewards for fulfilling society's apparent expectations (as expressed by the authority figures you encounter), without regard to the consequences of those expectations. Few people remain in stage 3 past their early 20s, but many people remain in stage 4 for the entirety of their lives. Nothing wrong with that, really; people who get stuck in stage 4 end up being successful asses (Donald Trump and Bill Gates are excellent examples). Those who move on to stage 5 and 6 are usually less successful (because personal success is less meaningful to them), though I'd argue they are more pleasant to be around and generally live lives that are a bit more serene. --Ludwigs219:30, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The answer to the OP's question is simple: He abandoned his principles. Why he abandoned them is something only he and maybe his therapist can know for sure. As far as computers being more complex than humans, that's a red herring. They used to tell us that humans are slow, inaccurate, and intelligent; and that computers are fast, accurate and stupid. It's still true. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 03:16, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Baseball Bugs is basically right though perhaps not terribly accurate. From a psychological perspective, what happened to you is that your opinions changed, or your life perspective changed, or your belief system changed, or, or, or. There are so many ways to express it and none of them will give you the reason why it happened. There are so many different reasons why whatever happened might have happened. They range from the mundane physical (like a change in your digestion)to the deeply spiritual (like a change in your level of consciousness). However, what it all eventually comes back to is the first set of sensible answers given to you by experienced editors - namely that you can either have opinions or professional analysis and neither of those are the business of the reference desk.
Gurumaister (talk) 12:00, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Baseball bugs is not right; he is expressing a conventional lay opinion on the matter. Most psychologists would either approach this question from a developmental perspective, or from a trauma perspective - identity is nowhere near as fluid as most people presuppose, and one does not "abandon one's principles" casually (in fact, abandoning principles is a moral judgement about behavior, not a psychological assessment of mental state). --Ludwigs214:15, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No argument, Ludwig - I was responding to the 'meat' of what Baseball Bugs was attempting to convey (I did say that it wasn't accurate :) Gurumaister (talk) 15:22, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Short answer, assuming you're talking about yourself, character failure. Sharing and giving when you have nothing takes nothing and means nothing. Sharing and giving when you do have something takes commitment and gives meaning to your life. From the Hobbesian perspective, a Rolex on your wrist doesn't make life any longer or less brutish. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK19:49, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hi, I've been trying to expand the article, and the article is at 5x now, only there's a couple of citation neededs that I put up as I cannot find those facts in any source in vernacular, traditional Chinese. If you read simplified Chinese and find a ref for that, or if you read classical Chinese and found the info in the Records of the Grand Historian or the Zhanguo Ce, please let me know. Thanks Kayau VotingISevil14:18, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The very beginning of his biography in Shiji states that he was born in Wei. It makes no reference of any kind for a time period. -- kainaw™14:41, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Um, what's the Liu Guo Biao? I'd like a WS link. If his date of death is disputed, that's great because I'll never spare and extra character... Kayau VotingISevil
Liu Guo Biao is a basic history book. Literally, it is Six Country History. I don't have an English (or even a Chinese) link to it. Searching... -- kainaw™15:36, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The article says A modern form of pomander is made by studding an orange or other fruit with whole dried cloves and letting it cure dry, after which it may last indefinitely. Typically how long would it take for this drying process, which I suspect would vary depending on the fruit involved?--Doug Coldwelltalk14:56, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I did it once, very badly, and it took about four months. That's not very scientific. It was autumn time in the UK, if that makes a difference. --Dweller (talk) 15:51, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
According to this website I just found Curing time varies anywhere from 3 weeks to 6 months. On average it's about 3 1/2 weeks. - but of course that would depend on temperatures and humidity. My guess of "forty days and forty nights" wasn't that far off apparently, as 6 weeks is 42 days. --Doug Coldwelltalk10:48, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Some people take their etrog and stud it in this manner after Sukkot -- I didn't even know it had an official name. My neighbor has a bunch of them from years ago and they all look as dessicated as a pine cone. I'd say that could last indefinitely. DRosenbach(Talk | Contribs)02:02, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If Manning was a private deployed in Iraq, why did he have access to critical information relating to Afghanistan? Wouldn't it have been much more sensible to let a senior member analyze the information in Washington? --Quest09 (talk) 17:47, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This article, which is about the Pentagon rethinking who should have access to "Secret" information, states:
A low-ranking Army soldier suspected of leaking thousands of classified documents had access to the documents because U.S. officials have pressed to make sure secret information is available to combat units ... "One of the lessons learned from the first Gulf War in 1991 was how little useful intelligence information was being received by battalion and company commanders in the field," Gates recalled, "and so there has been an effort over the last 15 or so years . . . to push as much information as far forward as possible, which means putting it in a secret channel that almost everybody has access to.
It's a tricky trade-off. On the one hand, if you let lots of low-level people know lots of important things, then the chance of any one leaking them goes up to such a level that classifications like "secret" become certainly weakened (they end up, in practice, more like "restricted" or "confidential" classifications). On the other hand, if you concentrate useful information too high in the hierarchy, then it doesn't get used effectively. This has been a major post-Cold War debate within the American national security establishment. There are some who say, "get the information out there, because the advantages of having it widely disseminated outweigh the risks of it being compromised," and there are those who say, "if it is really sensitive, you should guard it really carefully, even if that means you are sometimes sending people out half-blind." Most security wonks seem to think the former approach makes more sense — these "secrets" have a very short half-life for the most part, and the apparatus needed to try and determine what should and shouldn't be given to folks on the ground is too ineffective and slow for the kind of "war" we are in now. (The 9/11 Commission, for example, pointed very directly to lack of intelligence sharing as a major reason that the attacks were not prevented.) But these kinds of leaks are a real possibility in such a situation, which can lead to massive political re-entrenchments of the old, Cold War-style security model. --Mr.98 (talk) 15:51, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Both answers above solve part of the problem (why did he had access to important information). The second part is why did he -being in Iraq- have access to information regarding the Afghan war?Quest09 (talk) 18:11, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As an intelligence analyst with high-level security clearances, Manning was not restricted to looking only at classified information about Iraq, though his unit, a brigade of the 10th Mountain Division, was deployed there. The design of the military's classified computer system allows analysts to examine a wide range of secret information stored on servers maintained by U.S. Central Command, which oversees forces in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Never read Chomsky, but I'm curious — is it a reference to the fact that the bodies of some American soldiers were never recovered and taken back to North America? Nyttend (talk) 19:24, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose theoretically there could still be some living unreleased POWs or defectors still there, but I would have to see evidence to believe it myself. Googlemeister (talk) 20:09, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, check the previously-linked Criticism of Noam Chomsky. Surely, Chomsky is an influential scientist and intellectual; he's also a nonsensical blowhard, and that adds up to an influential blowhard, which is the worst kind. And this is not limited to his politics. Why does anyone take universal grammar seriously? Because Chomsky believes in it. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:20, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Chomsky's political writings are very unpopular among those who believe that America can do no wrong, but "nonsensical" is a deeply ignorant statement. I'm going to say you've never read one of his essays. Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:08, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Chomsky's critical commentary often is about patterns of behavior that the US government has engaged in for decades. One favorite topic, the "threat of a good example", is about how the US has repeatedly used military force or economic force to attack or bully countries that defy US hegemony. If the US can destroy these efforts, then other countries won't be able to use these efforts as a "good example" to model when they, in turn, aspire to defy US hegemony. (Here is an article section about the criticism of his criticism in this area, if you're interested.) He discusses the US posture toward Vietnam because it's an excellent, concrete example of this, as are the US posture toward Nicaragua under the Sandinistas, US support of the slaughter of about half a million people in Indonesia, etc. This is why he is "going on about it". Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:35, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Correction. The war never ended. It's been in remission for 60 years, which is why there are still lots of troops there. There has never been a formal cessation of hostilities, only an agreement to stop shooting at one another. There have been flare ups now and then (see USS Pueblo (AGER-2)) but the war has never been closed by a formal peace treaty. --Jayron3201:49, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So, what was all that kerfuffle about how Moscow should not have been able to stage the 1980 Olympics because they were at war in Afghanistan? Why wasn't the same principle applied to 1984 Los Angeles and 1996 Atlanta? -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 02:24, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It wasn't a kerfuffle over holding olympics while at war in general. See 1980 Summer Olympics boycott. It was about the specific war, and in this case it was about the ability to use the boycott to make a political statement regarding that war (a position that was not universally popular, even in the U.S. It has been cited as a contributing factor towards Carter losing the 1980 election to Reagan, for example). Furthermore, the fact that the nations have remained in an semi-official state of war doesn't seem to get in the way of of having periodic progress made towards ending the conflict once and for all. Both participate in the six-party talks. There was the historic June 15th North–South Joint Declaration. It does happen. --Jayron3202:48, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think perhaps the question is why does Vietnam come up so much in U.S. political discourse 35 years after the conflict ended. I think it's because it's the last conflict to kill so many U.S. troops; it provides so many good examples of U.S. government coverups and misdeeds; it was the only war the U.S. has out-and-out lost; and it happened when the Baby Boombers, who make up so much of the U.S. electorate, were of military age. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 05:14, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you take the area of the whole Earth, what percent of it be the area of Europe? (you're supposed to count water for the world but not oceans for Europe, lakes yes). This is not hw85.181.49.186 (talk) 20:09, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The introduction to our article on Europe notes both the percentage of total surface area and the percentage of land surface area. — Lomn20:31, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How do you mean? Do you mean that there is a tacit acceptance among the occupying force that everyone is armed, and the U.S. doesn't bother trying to disarm people, or do you mean that there is a written law or formal regulation which specifically states that every family gets an AK-47. I suspect it is more of the former; people may state something like "Everyone in Iraq is required to carry an AK-47" as something of a bit of sarcasm or black humor. --Jayron3201:45, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
According to this site (which seems to have fairly well-sourced figures, there are approximately 34.2 privately owned firearms in Iraq for every 100 people, which is pretty high (it puts them 8th in the world, percentage-wise, and 13th in the world number-wise). I've found an LA Times article from 2003 that says the US was planning to try to reign in some of the firearm ownership in Iraq under the Bush administration, but I don't know how that actually ended up. Googling "Iraq gun ownership" deluges you with unrelated articles, unfortunately. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:03, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
August 3
Shakespeare and Italy
I am curious why Shakespeare often set his plays in Italy. Was there any reason for doing so? Many of his plays are fiction, and he could have chosen any fictitious setting. Shakespeare himself was born, grew up, and lived in England his whole life (I believe). And, as far as I know, he never even visited Italy. (Or did he?) Why, then, his affinity for Italy? Thanks. (64.252.34.115 (talk) 01:11, 3 August 2010 (UTC))[reply]
Well, not exclusively Italy. He did set a few there, but there are also many set in England (Henry the pick-a-number, Richard III, King Lear), Scotland (MacBeth), Denmark (Hamlet). Most of his romantic or comedic plays do seem to be set in Italy; perhaps there was some impression of Italy being a romantic place. Not sure there's anything more indepth that picking a setting appropriate for the action and theme of the play, in light of what was probably the wider English impression of what Italy was like... --Jayron3201:42, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Italy, ground zero of the Renaissance, was the New York City or Paris of Shakespeare's day, especially when viewed from the relative cultural backwater of Elizabethan England. Or so it's often argued. England and northern Europe were fine settings for plays about scheming, troubled kings, but Italy was a better setting for laughter and romance. —KevinMyers02:08, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Shakespeare placed many of his plays in Italy and sprinkled them with detailed descriptions of Italian life. Though there are no records Shakespeare of Stratford ever visited mainland Europe, historical documents confirm Oxford lived in Venice, and traveled for over a year through Italy. According to Anderson, the Italian cities Oxford definitely visited in 1575-1576 were Venice, Padua, Milan, Genoa, Palermo, Florence, Siena and Naples and he probably also passed through Messina, Mantua and Verona — all cities "Shakespeare" later wrote into the plays, while (except for Rome) the Italian cities Oxford bypassed are the same cities Shakespeare ignored.
See also de Vere’s Italian connections laid bare at the sections headed The Merchant of Venice, The Tempest, The Taming of the Shrew, and As You Like It. He alludes to various local Italian practices that someone who had never been there would not know about. Yet Shakespeare never went there. (Or did "he"?) -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 02:20, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There were ten years (roughly) where there exists no record for Shakespeare. He may have been in London during that time, but there are people who theorize that he traveled Europe, and perhaps spent time in Italy. It is pure conjecture because, as I said, there are no records whatsoever documenting those years in Shakespeare's life. We know that he was alive, but beyond that it is completely questionable. Falconusptc03:50, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The other point is that his Italian geography seems rather patchy. He has, I think, ships sailing from Verona [Edit: on further research, I may mean Milan (in The Winter's Tale), and also much of Bohemia] (Two Gentlemen), and other geographical inconsistencies. I haven't read much of his Italian works, but specific references seem rather thin on the ground. I once found a list of them, but have failed to find them since. - Jarry1250[Humorous? Discuss.]13:16, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Shakespeare (whatever his real name/s was/were, though I'm happy to assume he was one guy from Stratford-upon-Avon) didn't usually invent his plots de novo: they were often based on older stories and/or plays by others. Where historically-themed - Macbeth, for example - he adapted history (or "history") texts of the time, predominently that of Raphael Holinshed, while others such as Romeo and Juliet drew on classical and foreign plays and/or stories to which he had access, and which often had an Italian origin: check out the 'Sources' Sections in the article of those and others of his plays.
However one rates Shakespeare's eternal literary merits, his primary purpose (I don't say he didn't have others) when he was writing was not to invent original stories for the ages, but to produce as efficiently as possible entertainment for the paying playgoers of his own time. Most of them didn't know or care that he was refashioning older material, and those that did would merely have admired his skill in doing so.
Naturally, he would have minimised his own labour by not deviating from his source material more than he had to, so would have retained the foreign settings in it. As far as any special and unusual knowledge of contemporary Italy (etc) goes, while he may not have been there he would surely, like most authors in such situations, have both read travellers' accounts and picked the brains of anyone who had whom he knew personally: this might have included both aristocrats like Oxford and, perhaps more plausibly, such persons' servants. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 12:52, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Partly it was because it was conveniently distant from England,and religiously Catholic, so that an Italian setting avoided potential political problems which might have occurred if the plays were set at home (implying that an Italian city-state is poorly governed is a lot less dangerous than implying that England is poorly governed etc.). AnonMoos (talk) 18:00, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Whence "Incest is best"?
What is the original source for the rhyme that goes "Incest is best, put your [kinship term] to the test!", with a different term in each repetition of the line? (I did try Google, but couldn't find anything that seemed to indicate the primary source.) Or is it an anonymous folk rhyme or children's playground song? 68.123.238.146 (talk) 03:08, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've never heard this variation. The standard joke line, I think, is "vice is nice, but incest is best", which was probably popularized in 1964 by Gael Greene's provocative paperback exposé Sex and the College Girl. Presumably she didn't write the line, but only reported it. Google apparently has nothing on the phrase prior to Greene's book. —KevinMyers05:18, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What causes some people to be attention whores? Why are so many of them cheaters if they are getting the attention they need from the person they are seeing or married to? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.169.33.234 (talk) 04:43, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Did ancient Egypt have any symbol that functioned as a state emblem, like the eagle standard of Rome? I assume each pharaoh and other powerful individuals would have had a personal standard of some sort, but was there anything that endured through many reigns (or even eras) to represent Egypt itself? 86.170.214.157 (talk) 10:34, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure that there is much hope in finding a single, common symbol to represent many different "states" that ruled over the course of the centuries that we call "Ancient Egypt". But the Ankh is a nice, recognizable symbol that was of great importance to the state religion. Category:Ancient_Egyptian_symbols has a few other similar such things. The crook and flail is another nice candidate, symbolizing the office of the Pharaoh itself; ditto the Eye of Horus. --Mr.98 (talk) 15:12, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would also question that the eagle standard functioned as a state emblem in the Roman Empire. Sure, it is a convenient symbol that is readily associated with Rome today, but it was most likely not used as a national emblem so much as a Roman military emblem during the period. SPQR or the she wolf suckling Romulus and Remus would probably be closer to a national symbol of the Roman Empire. Most likely there was no single symbol that was generally used by the nations themselves either in Egypt or Rome, so any representative symbol would rely on the modern anachronistic interpretation of a national symbol (and of the modern interpretation of nation in general). Besides the good examples already mentioned by Mr. 98, perhaps the twin crown or perhaps the falcon of Horus would be applicable. --Saddhiyama (talk) 15:30, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Were The Indigenous people, the Taínos, farmers and hunters?
I'm working on the Cuba article and the article makes the claim that the Taíno people are Farmers. When I go to the Taínos article, it claims that they hunted and fished.
The problem is that neither article cites their information. I would like to receive help finding sources that supports one or the other so that I can clear up the claim of the Taíno people only farmers or farmers & hunters.
The reference The Peoples of the Caribbean by Nicholas Saunders (first listing) is - in parts - available online and states on p272 "At the time of the European arrival, the Taino population ... lived a settled village life and practised agriculture." There may be more information on their source of animal proteins on other pages. You may want to check your library for this refence. --91.115.163.156 (talk) 18:12, 3 August 2010 (UTC). Oops, --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 18:17, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I read a book years ago, I don't recall the title and only recall a few plot points, I wonder if someone will remember it. I have tried a Google search but have so far been unlucky.
The book has a character in it who works in a Bio-safety level 4 environment. I believe it's a woman, and the book describes the reason she has to work BL3 is because her body was unable to process the vaccines required for BL3 workers. Since things studied in BL4 have no vaccines she was able to work there. She was some kind of public health worker for USAMRIID or CDC, or similar agency.
I believe the plot centers around some kind of virus an astronaut picks up in space. I seem to recall an autopsy in which black growths are discovered in the astronauts stomach.
The new Weedon Hill development has been in the local news today, so I have taken the bull by the horns and created an article about it. The development is built on the reputed site of the 1642 Battle of Aylesbury, and the proposed road names in the development are to be named after important figures from the battle. Prince Rupert Drive is one that has definitely been confirmed, and his article is easy enough to locate. However the other confirmed road name is Colonel Grantham Avenue. I can find reference to Grantham in contemporary references of this and other battles that took place in England in the 1640s, but can find nothing about the individual himself in order that he might also (possibly) have an article on Wikipedia. Does anyone know anything about Colonel Grantham that could lead to a decent biography about him being written? -- roleplayer21:38, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I typed "Colonel Grantham 1642" into Google and this[14] page came up first. It mention's "Colonel Grantham's regiments". This page[15] has "Thomas Grantham" as commander of a regiment of the "Earl of Essex Army". Got to rush... Alansplodge (talk) 07:17, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Two other 17th Century "Thomas Granthams" to beware of; a Baptist preacher from Lincolnshire who would have been 8 in 1642[16] and a ship's captain, Thomas Grantham, who was knighted towards the end of the century[17]. One Thomas Grantham Esq (probably our man) married Frances, daughter of Sir Godfrey Wentworth on 12th January 1657[18]. Thomas Grantham also appears under Lincolnshire in an Ordnance of 1643 listing those who had raised regiments and who would be paid by Parliament "for the mutuall defence each of other against the Popish Army in the North under the command of the Marquesse of Newcastle."[19]. Maybe some more soon... Alansplodge (talk) 12:03, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well I suppose the ultimate question is, was he notable enough to have a Wikipedia article written about him? Do we know enough about him in order to write a decent article? John Hampden has an article, and he was at the same rank as Grantham (and in the same battle), but I think Hampden might be more notable for other reasons. -- roleplayer14:57, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As every schoolboy knows (or used to), Hampden was one of the five members of Parliament that Charles tried to arrest. From memory (more than 40 years ago):
But this was probably our man's father; the Lincoln Archives have a folio "Rental and survey of all the lands in the possession of Thomas Grantham esq., son of Sir Thomas Grantham kt, decd, 1638 (reference to "my father" in the margin) Goltho, giving tenant, rent and acreage, all of land in closes (folio 132v) Kingthorpe (folio 130v)[20]. Alansplodge (talk) 17:53, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Given the information that Grantham's first name was Thomas I have done a quick search on google and have come up with several references to a Baptist minister from Lincolnshire, who died in 1692: [21][22][23][24]. I suspect that may be a relation, possibly a son? There are also other references to Thomas Grantham from Lincolnshire, one of which is definitely the Sir who was possibly the father, though this one shows an early link with Hampden: [25]. There's also a Sir Thomas Grantham, 1641-1718: [26], and a Thomas Grantham who was master of Peter House in Cambridge in 1642: [27]. I didn't know it was such a common name!!! -- roleplayer22:11, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
PS according to familysearch.org there was a Thomas Grantham baptised in Goltho, Lincolnshire on 5th November 1612, son of Sir Thomas Grantham and Frances Puckering. The record shows that he married Dorothy Alford (no date given) and that he died in 1655. -- roleplayer22:30, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Here's a news item about it, with some figures: [28] (Not very useful figures, but hey). In many countries the power lines are just too dangerous to go near, although Tim Hunkin [29] claims that an unnamed Canadian was once convicted of stealing power by induction. Rigging your electricity meter so that you don't appear to have used so much power is probably the most attractive option. (Perhaps the most relevant factor is that the lines are buried underground once they leave the substation.) Wurstgeist (talk) 22:46, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
According to this 2004 study, Western Europe, North America, and East Asia/ Australasia have pretty low rates of electricity theft. (I'm not entirely sure what their metric is, but they rate Western Europe as have a 7.56% loss rate, East Asia/Australasia as 7.65%, North America as 9.38%). By comparison, South Asia (which would include India) is the highest, at 27.55%. Between 1980 and 2000 the EasternEurope rate doubled (9.68% to 18.18%), and on the whole in that period the overall theft rate in the world increased by 4.54%. (North America was anomalous in decreasing by 0.29%.) The authors of the study correlate it with lack of effective government control over people and utilities — it happens in places where "rule of law is weak" and "government effectiveness is weak and there is a high regulatory burden." The authors attribute the low rates in North America, Japan, and Western Europe to the fact that in these countries there are pretty effective technological and managerial techniques used to detect and prosecute electricity theft. In these countries, for example, they have tamper-proof meters, which are most costly to put in but drastically cut the rate of theft. They also have regular inspection and monitoring programs. --Mr.98 (talk) 23:04, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe yours is, but mine is pretty expensive, in the summer time anyway when I have to pump in air conditioning. When I lived in the Bay Area, I thought electricity was cheap, and never had bills more than $30 a month or so. But on the East Coast I can easily run up to $150-200 a month if I really was at the comfort level I would ideally desire, in a hot summer. That's not an insignificant percentage of my overall income, though not worth going to jail over. If there were no chances of getting caught, and it was easy to do, I don't see why it would be any different than, say, software piracy. I suspect there is more to it than all of that, though — most Americans wouldn't even really think about stealing power to begin with. There are strong social norms against it (in a way that there are not strong social norms against pirating movies). --Mr.98 (talk) 00:38, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
One area where it is a problem is in marijuana grow-ops, where power is stolen to disguise indoor hydroponic consumption. Here's a note on the problem from my provincial power authority.[30] They say that most power theft in the province is related to grow-ops. --JGGardiner (talk) 03:16, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can Romans be considered Italians? More specifically, my question pertains the inclusion of Roman people in the article List of Italians. Engine searches do not return clear results for the question "are Romans Italian" and variations thereof. My personal POV being that Romans cannot be considered Italian is derived from what I could describe as very slightly above average knowledge of history, therefore, I conclude that saying that "Romans are not Italian" would constitute OR. Are there any scholarly or reliable articles, or books, on the question? Would it be appropriate to move the Roman people to List of Romans? Brutal Deluxe (talk) 23:49, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
According to Italy#Etymology by the time of Antiochus of Syracuse (420BC) the term Italy was being used to describe people from the southern part of the peninsula, but it was not until the time of the Roman conquests that the term was expanded to cover the entire peninsula (direct quote from article, referenced). This would suggest that the Romans were Italians. However Rome covered a vast empire and thus applied to more than just modern-day Italy, so evidence would need to be supplied to suggest that each Roman in question originated from the Italian peninsula in order to be included on the list, imo. -- roleplayer00:20, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is what the definition of "Italian" really covers. I'm not sure you'll get two people to agree on that (especially if one of them is Italian!). If you just consider it to mean that land mass, then they definitely are. If you mean it to cover a cultural history that starts after the Roman empire, then obviously not. If you have some kind of quasi-genetic/racial delineation, you'll get a very complicated answer that doesn't really conform to nation-state boundaries. If you do it by what areas were under the Roman Empire, you basically end up making everybody in Europe Roman, as this map illustrates pretty well. Personally, again, I doubt you'll be able to get anyone to agree one way or the other on this. It depends on what you consider the starting definitions to be, and people are going to pick and choose from those fairly arbitrarily. --Mr.98 (talk) 00:34, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Was it Metternich who said "Italy is merely a geographical expression"? Whoever, but if that's the least we can say about Italy, then Romans certainly fit into that, the same way that Croatians and Bosnians and some others can be described as Dalmatians. -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 01:25, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you're talking about the complicated legal question in ancient Rome, then Rome proper was, well, Rome, and the other surrounding cities were fellow Latins (if they lived in Latium, anyway), and a bit further out they were all "Italian", distinct from Rome. They were considered, by Rome at least, to be longstanding allies, although they apparently felt that they were actually unequal subjects. There was some discussion of granting the Latins and other Italians equal rights, which led to the Social War (91–88 BC), or the "Italian War" in Latin (bellum Italicum). At the time there were many other people in the peninsula who were not Roman, Latin, or Italian (the Etruscans, the Greeks, the Gauls, maybe even the Sicilians although it was their legendary king Italus who gave his name to the region). You might also want to look at Roman citizenship. (And not everyone in the Empire was technically Roman until Roman rights were granted universally, whenever that was, in the third century AD I think.) Adam Bishop (talk) 02:33, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Adam, I believe that that you're confusing Roman citizenship with Roman ethnic and cultural background (there is a tiny diff). A family outside of Italy eventually received Roman citizenship (which at that time meant that they had some rights, but basicly they were subjects of the emperor), but that didn't necessarily mean that they became Romans. They would maintain their own cultural identity. Let me use a clear example: a male Jew, as a free man, became a Roman citizen with the edict of emperor Caracala (at the latest). However he still was a Jew and did not became a Roman. He would still maintain his ancestral culture (to a certain degree, some Romanization was likely to occur). Flamarande (talk) 17:02, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
August 4
"Frazer River"
Is this a historical misspelling of Fraser River? As in the "Mighty Frazer River"? (as can be seen on some old maps) Or is there an another actual river called the "Frazer River" that's distinct from the one in BC? Thanks in advance to anyone who answers. -- Ϫ06:41, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I recall in one of my college classes that the word "state" historically meant the same as "country". And when America was first founded, it was supposed to be a union of different countries or states, with the federal government acting solely to defend this union from foreign invasion. This is why there's a such thing as states rights, and state laws differing from each other instead of having consistent federal laws that apply to all states. Is this more or less correct or is my memory decieving me? 148.168.127.10 (talk) 12:52, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
All sovereign states are countries, but not all countries are sovereign states are countries. States in the US are different again - if I recall a few of them (Texas and Vermont) were inpendent republics at some stage. --SnowdedTALK12:55, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Commenting only on the linguistic part of this question: historically, the noun state had many shades of meaning. The Oxford English Dictionary divides its entry into 41 subdivisions, of which these are most relevant here:
27. The condition of the Church, a country, realm, etc. in regard to its welfare and polity [from c.1290]
28. A particular form of polity or government [from 1538]
29. The body politic as organized for supreme civil rule and government; the political organization which is the basis of civil government [from 1538]
30. A body of people occupying a defined territory and organized under a sovereign government [from 1568]
31. The territory, or one of the territories, ruled by a particular sovereign [from 1602]
So I think it would be wrong to make deductions about the political organization of the United States from the linguistic history of the word state. The word has too many shades of meaning to pick any one of them with certainty. Gdr13:11, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You might take a look at the Articles of Confederation, which is essentially what you are talking about. This was abandoned in favor of the United States Constitution in 1788 because it was found that the "loose band of independent states" model had serious downsides. (I agree with Gdr that parsing over the vague word is not the best way to make strong historical conclusions, especially when there are copious sources describing exactly what people were thinking at the time, what model of government they were after, etc.) --Mr.98 (talk) 13:24, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In the 200+ years since the Constitution was adopted, "states' rights" have been eroded in various ways, not the least of which was the amendment guaranteeing "equal protection", which was the basis for federal intervention to abolish legalized racial segregation in the southern U.S. So the U.S. federal (or "central") government is stronger than it was in the 1790s, and people are not necessarily as likely to strongly identify with their state as they were then, but the states still reserve a significant amount of "sovereignty" to themselves. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 14:22, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In political science jargon, 'state' refers to a political entity that has sovereignty (the absolute right to rule over those people and areas that belong to it), 'nation' refers to a people who are united by cohesive social, cultural, or historical elements, and 'country' refers to a geographical area (usually a subset of a larger area - such as a continent) which is controlled by a state or a nation. The terms overlap in common usage and are often used interchangeably - political entities are often organized around/by social/cultural units and are usually localized to geographic regions - but that shouldn't be done analytically. Thus:
Israel was a nation before it was a state or a country, and is all three now.
California is a state because it has sovereignty (freedom to make its own laws, bounded only by explicit laws reserved to the federation), but is not referred to as a country because the geographical area is considered to be part of the larger federation.
Somalia and Afghanistan are countries (defined as independent geographical regions), and may or may not be nations (depending on how you read their cultural histories), but neither is currently a state, since neither is capable of maintaining sovereign rule over their people and territories.
According to author and historian Shelby Foote: "Before the [Civil] war, it was said 'the United States are.' Grammatically, it was spoken that way and thought of as a collection of independent states. And after the war, it was always 'the United States is,' as we say today without being self-conscious at all. And that sums up what the war accomplished. It made us an 'is.'" — Michael J22:10, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think the original statement above is more or less right. The colonies were originally completely separate entities, all loyal to Great Britain, that occasionally got together on an ad hoc basis to handle issues of mutual concern. It should be noted, though, that even under the Articles of Confederation the central government had more powers than simply defending against invasion. Foreign policy and international trade were reserved to the central government, as were Indian affairs, post offices and settlement of disputes between states. So the concept of the individual states as completely independent entities didn't last long. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:19, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Automaton and law
Is there any law governing automaton or robot, particularly, autonomous robot, such as its personality and rights, control or prohibition of its production or creation, and so on. Or is there anyone, community or project initiating or discussing that?
For question #1, the answer is "no". For question #2, we're discussing it right now! Perhaps others are, as well. --Sean13:57, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why? And what do you mean by "rather than just machines"? It's quite possible to be both - after all, we are only meat machines, and I'm very much self-aware (according to me). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:54, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Do you know any inclined planes personally? It's the process of biological evolution that gave us whatever we have. We deny the existence of a God, yet claim we ourselves can imbue a machine with a soul. That's pretty funny. As a scientist, unless someone can demonstrate that a particular machine has self-awareness, then I can only conclude that they don't. There's no practical difference between a sophisticated robot and a screwdriver. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 22:51, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Science fiction is the perfect avenue for exploring legal and ethic issues involving machine autonomy, given that we have no interesting real-world examples. Paul (Stansifer)19:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To answer the original question, there are no such laws, and there will be no such laws until computers stand up on their own and ask for them. You go ahead and create a computer/software that can run its own civil rights/suffrage movement, and we can revisit the question of whether computers have awareness of their own existence then. --Ludwigs216:38, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why is San Francisco such a popular destination for French tourists?
I was just visiting San Francisco, and the number one language I heard spoken by tourists from outside the US was by far le français, and it was the third most prevalent language overall, short of English and possibly Chinese dialects (which being Asian I inevitably exposed myself to in Chinatown) surpassing even Spanish (and considering California's closeness to the Mexican border). In fact on one occasion I boarded a bus, and three French-speaking families boarded the same bus from three separate stops. I realise that some of these Francophones may have been Québécois or Belgian or Swiss, etc. 68.76.147.53 (talk) 14:58, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SF is a popular tourist site to begin with, and SF has always had close ties with France (it was long considered the 'Paris of the West'). --Ludwigs216:34, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think you will find that you are thinking very unclearly, that you are asking us to give you something that can't logically exist. It's simply not possible for the Government to tell a lie, you will find, if you look into the definitions of those two words. One individual employee of the government can certainly say something he thinks is otherwise. But the Government as a whole cannot lie. You will never find a New York Times headline, or any other respectable newspaper's, that would indicate the Government "lied" or "is lying", since the Government just physically, logically, cannot do just that. 84.153.232.44 (talk) 16:48, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, not the government but their servants suchs as ministers, presidents, secretaries and such. What I mean are topics people of the government were making up something like a false flag operation making it up as it is the truth. First a denial then a small excuse, get it? --77.4.60.146 (talk) 16:57, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For clarification, do you ONLY want instances in which part of the government took a particular stance and then admitted that it was wrong? If you look for any instance in which some part of the government has been called a liar, you open yourself up to stuff like the government being accused of completely making up everything about the moon landing or the government making up the whole 9/11 thing (there are even sites that claim that Bin Laden is a CIA employee and all of his videos are filmed in a studio in Washington DC). -- kainaw™17:33, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think the intent of the question is perfectly clear and it is an interesting question. I would rephrase it, to satisfy the pedants, as: Is there a list of demonstrably false statements that were deliberately stated publicly as truth by any element of the US government, while known to be false? Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:06, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm surprised it's not mentioned there, but Eisenhower's inept coverup of the U-2 shootdown was the most unequivocal case of a US president lying to the public that comes to mind. --Sean18:47, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Surely you haven't forgotten "I did not have sexual relations with that woman". That's not a great example of the government as a whole trying to deceive- just the president on his own. Staecker (talk) 22:17, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On June 28th 1593 the Estates-General of France met to discuss the issue of the succession following the death of king Henry III. Can anyone give me a short summary of typical French politics of the time, how things would have worked, what would have happened there, what different groups would have claimed and argued, and such like?
80.47.208.141 (talk) 20:33, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A special exemption from that rule was created for CoE vicars defecting over the women bishops issue. See here for a newspaper article on the subject (it's the Daily Mail, but it's the only one of the first page of Google results...). --Tango (talk) 23:17, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
August 5
Orwell quote
A quote along the lines of 'some ideas are stupid only an intellectual could believe them' is often attributed to Orwell. Does anyone know the exact source? 129.67.37.143 (talk) 00:19, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The closest I could find was from "Notes on Nationalism": There is no limit to the follies that can be swallowed if one is under the influence of feelings of this kind. I have heard it confidently stated, for instance, that the American troops had been brought to Europe not to fight the Germans but to crush an English revolution. One has to belong to the intelligentsia to believe things like that: no ordinary man could be such a fool. ---Sluzzelintalk00:52, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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The French vertical tricolor was an example for many countries in central and southern Europe, the Danish Dannebrog was an example for most Scandinavian flags, and the horizontal tricolor of the Netherlands influenced the German flag and (through the Russian horizontal tricolor) the flags of many Slavic countries. However, the flags of Switzerland, Greece, Czech(oslovakia) and the United Kingdom do definitely depart from basic horizontal or vertical bicolors/tricolors or Nordic crossses... AnonMoos (talk) 19:18, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
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ignorance is only blissful for the ignorant... <smirk>--Ludwigs2 19:12, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
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-- AnonMoos (talk) 09:55, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
