Talk:Tingatinga (painting)

The article should be called "Tinga Tinga Art" or "Tingatinga Art". Tingatinga(painting) is specific, it does not conclude other art forms such as art on calabash, three dimensional art (animals, fish decorations). Further readers tend to look for broader terms than specific ones. --Tuptan (talk) 10:50, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Controversial points

There seem to be some controversial points on this subject. While the Tingatinga art is so widespread in Africa that its notability is, IMO, beyond any discussion, it is true that there are few sources and even less completely reliable ones. So I am moving controversial points here to avoid dialectics going on in the article. Please discuss these points here and provide sources before reintegrating material inte the article. Also note that such controversial issues may arise in Edward Tingatinga; in that case, please refer to this discussion for controversy related to the painting/art style and to Talk:Edward Tingatinga for controversy on the painter himself (e.g., his birth nation).

Relationship between TT and traditional southern tanzanian art

I removed this paragraph:

Example of a traditional hut-wall painting in South Tanzania (picture: Karl Weule, 1906)

Sometimes it is claimed that the origins of the Tingatinga style can be traced back to the African tradition of decorating hut walls. As an argument it is said that some hut wall paintings found in southern Tanzania generally resemble Tingatinga art. This connection is historically wrong. The wall-paintings at African huts are the continuation of paintings at rocks and in caves (Cave painting). One can find such paintings in a lot of regions of Africa (e.g. in Namibia), also in Australia, America and Europe (with illustrations from animals, people and ornaments in frequently similar representation) and they are surely not the orign of Tingatinga Art. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Moongateclimber (talk • contribs) 08:16, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I accept this because on this way the wrong claims of the TACS which are published till today [[1]] can delete from the article Makond (talk) 11:18, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Role ot the Tingatinga Arts Cooperative Society

I also removed the following section. Since it casts doubt of an existing organization, and does so without references, I think it is unfair to keep this in the article. Of course, criticism on TACS is no tabu as long as it is referenced properly.

The current discussion about Tingatinga Art as well as Tingatinga handicraft involves different aspects. There are remarkable disagreements already around the name of this artistic trend. Since some time the Tingatinga Arts Cooperative Society (TACS) in Dar es Salaam/Tanzania tried to establish the name "Tinga Tinga“ instead of the term „Tingatinga“. These attempts are to see before the background, to promote the international sales of abundantly produced Tingatinga paintings and other handicraft objects. In this context are used the historically inappropriate claims, that this painting style is the continuation of wall paintings you can find at a few places in South Tanzania (see above) and because of this a „cultural heritage”. The term "Tinga Tinga" actually never has played a serious role in the international art-scene. The only correct name is Tingatinga (art, paintings etc.), which is a tribute to the founder of this East African artistic trend Eduardo Saidi Tingatinga.

The dubious role, that plays the TACS today, is emphasized also by the sale of the usufruct of the term „Tinga Tinga“ to a film production company in United Kingdom (Tiger Aspect Production). That therefore is remarkable because the TACS neither was nor is the owner of the right of this term and also only a few Tingatinga artists are represented by the TACS.

Another present problem lies in the attempt, to occupy the name of the internationally highly respectable and in 2005 deceased Tanzanian artist George Lilanga as alleged Tingatinga artist. Only sale-strategic reasons are the background for this. Lilanga never was an artist of the Tingatinga style and he told in some of his late interwievs that he never felt as a member of Tingatinga group. In fact the artistic roots of Lilanga don't lie in Tingatinga square paintings but in the Makonde woodcarving art and then – starting with his time at House of Art (Nyumba Ya Sanaa) in Dar es Salaam in the 1970s – drawings, batiks and special (with masterworks already from the 1980s) etchings. All these artistic techniques neither were used by E. S. Tingatinga nor by his so called students or followers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Moongateclimber (talk • contribs) 08:19, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't accept the delete of this section. The first part of the text deals with the wrong claims of the TACS around the history [[2]] and the name [[3]]. It is important to clear up this also the economic intent of this. The middle part is a proof of the role of the TACS. More you can find e.g. at this references [[4]] and here [[5]] and here [[6]]. The last part deals not at first with the TACS but under the line "Current situation" with the current claim (e.g. see here [[7]]) that George Lilanga was a Tingatinga artist. In this context there is no reason to delete the text because this problem is a part of the theme around Tingatinga (painting, art or what else you will call the article line). Makond (talk) 11:43, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I hope I have made it clear that it is not my intent to delete anything, as long as it can be properly referenced. Since this section attacks TACS (e.g., calling its intents "dubious" and so on), which is an existing organization, the need for reliable sources for these claims is even stronger. This issue looks quite complex to me since there are opposite positions in web sources, yet it is still unclear to me why should some be considered more reliable than others; for example, what makes Alex Drummer more reliable than TACS sources. Unless this problem can be solved (which does not seem likely to me), the only two options are: a) do not discuss any of these disputes, that after all are not strictly necessary to describe the Tingatinga style; b) discuss them in a as-much-balanced-as-possible way, i.e., faithfully representing the positions of all stakeholders.

So: at the very least, this section needs a thorough reworking before being included in the article. Also, sources should be evaluated closely.

The good news is that if we can eventually make it to have it clear who says what and why out there and represent all positions faithfully, we will have done something that might really be useful to whoever will approach the issue. The bad news is that it is hard work. Moongateclimber (talk) 13:39, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I gave it a try, please check it. It's not inclusive of everything you wrote, but it's a beginning that we can hopefully have consensus on. Moongateclimber (talk) 14:45, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have no problem to find a consensus. But the more I read your statements the more it seems to me that you could personally involved with the TACS, isn't it? However, I worked out new text sequences, special in the history part. Maybe we can find a solution on this way.Makond (talk) 17:23, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is TACS a school?

A micro-controversy is related to the use of the word "school" to refer to the Tingatinga Cooperative. I used it more in the sense of "school of thought" than school proper (and in this sense it may be wrong to equate it to the TACS; see below). User Makonde has replaced the word school with a so-called "school", implying that, in some sense, it is not a school. I think that it is not reasonable to say what the TACS is not, so I think the thing should be settled in some other way.

There are sources that speak of the "Tingatinga School" (capitalized) obviously referring to all those young painters that directly or indirectly build on Tingatinga's original inspiration ([8]). In this informal sense I think the word "school" can be used. Perhaps it could be rephrased as such:

"When Tingatinga died in 1972, his style was so popular that it had started a generation of imitators and followers, sometimes collectively referred to as the "Tingatinga school". About 100 hundred Tingatinga followers, including some of E.S.Tingatinga relatives, are organized in a society known as the T.A.C.S. [9]."

Or something like that. Moongateclimber (talk) 10:01, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

TACS never was a "school" but always an organization to promote the sale of the paintings and other handicraft things and to support the members. Therefore, already the question is wrong. My text doesn't deal with this question. It is about a term in the art-world.Makond (talk) 11:50, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This seems consistent with what I (now) wrote, anyway. Moongateclimber (talk) 13:40, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tingatinga Partnership Nonsense

When E.S.Tingatinga died in 1972 his children were still babies. How could could they be part of the formation of Tingatinga Partnership. Also, when Tingatinga died in 1972 he left behind 6 students - Ajaba, Linda, Adeus. Tedo, Amonde and Mpata. There were not more than 6 Tinga Tinga painters in the whole East Africa so where do all 100 "followers" come from? This is just to start. Why is it important to talk about name Tinga Tinga? Who has right to it? Why to write 2 or 1 word? These are matters of opinion and shouldn´t be dealt with on Encyclopedia. Wikipedia is platform for information, not opinions or controversy. Still I will try to balance the story. --41.204.142.84 (talk) 18:14, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tingatinga Cooperative as School

Tingatinga Cooperative is registered organization. In Fact the whole name is "Tinga Tinga Arts Cooperative Limited". this is exact citation of the name from the memorandum. Other version of the name is used "Tingatinga Arts Co-operative Society". The Cooperative is not school in the legal sense but nevertheless many Tanzanian artists passed the organization despite the unwillingness to accept any students or artists which are not related to Tingatinga family (when I say Tingatinga family I mean also the close related families of Mruta, Chilamboni or Mchisa; the latest quite a distant family from Tingatinga) Many great artists like Mzuguno, Msagula, Aussi passed the Cooperative. Many artists on Zanzibar or Arusha passed the Cooperative. The Coperative is setting trends to Tinga Tinga in Tanzania, at least the conservative and traditional one. The term "School of Tinga Tinga" could be used in some relation.--41.204.142.84 (talk) 18:26, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]