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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by StanMan87 (talk | contribs) at 03:17, 3 February 2015 (→Re: Full picture). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Happy New Year!

to one and all,
Have a prosperous, peaceful, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia. GregKaye

Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year 2015}} to user talk pages.



WP:TALK#USE: "Explaining why you have a certain opinion helps to demonstrate its validity.."

Persecution

Thank you. I also created categories concerning the persecution of Copts, Greeks, Kurds, and Sami. If you wanted to nominate these categories for renaming, which I would be supportive of, perhaps they could be renamed something along the lines of Category:Anti-Assyrian sentiment, Category:Anti-Yazidi sentiment, etc? There are already a number of categories with that naming convention, such as Category:Anti-Chinese sentiment or Category:Anti-Polish sentiment. Would that work? Solar-Wind (talk) 18:17, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Solar-Wind I'm figuring this out myself. It seems to me that the anti-Xxx formula is pretty Wikipedia friendly and I think that it's a matter of juggling this with the way terms are used in sources. I guess that categories are forms of article titles so I guess that uses in reliable sources also become relevant. Thanks for getting back on this. GregKaye 18:24, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Help in taking over arbitration of a dispute?

Hello GregKaye, Based on my reading of your user page, I have gotten the impression that you may have expertise on Israel. Therefore and together with the fact that you are the only person whom I know to have an interest in Israel, I thought you may be able to provide some much needed perspective in a dispute. I was hoping you would help take over arbitration on an article where I feel my limited experience means that I am no longer able to help in carrying the discussion forward. I think if I carried on I would be doing a disservice to the other editors but mostly to readers as it is regarding insertion of a statement into the lead. I am also starting to question if I am using wiki policy in the right way when deciding if a sentence is a statement of fact. It is a very hot issue and the article is part of active arbitration remedies. I will not discuss the merits of the issue here but just ask that your read through the dispute and provide some valuable insight. I understand you may be busy so I completely understand if you say no. If you decide to go for it, let me know so that I can disengage from the conversation. The issue is the inclusion of a statement into the lead of the main Israel article. It is being discussed here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Israel#Discussion_on_actual_wording

Regarding your post on my talk page, I will reply when I catch my breath. Mbcap (talk) 14:23, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Mbcap Thank you for this. In the occasionally fast moving world of WP it can be important to keep breathing. GregKaye 14:38, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

January 2015

Hello, GregKaye. After you were banned from interacting with P-123 just a few days ago, you have "thanked" the user twice, and also thanked some other editors for P-123-related edits. It's difficult to take that as simple gratitude, and it's certainly interaction. You need to stop poking holes through your IBAN right now. Bishonen | talk 19:56, 5 January 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Understood. My edits, while breaking rules, were all in good faith. GregKaye 08:07, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Bishonen following other appreciated discussion I just wanted to leave open notification here of my plan to delete rather than archive this thread. GregKaye 11:00, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Some falafel for you!

Thanks for you efforts to make the Israel article a NPOV article. Gouncbeatduke (talk) 01:54, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Gouncbeatduke and בתאבון to you to. I am personally all for the fair highlighting of the Criticisms of Israel but this needs to be done in fair ways and with fairly presented guidelines based content. GregKaye 08:04, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Edit count

Something you said got me digging in the tools. On one article you have 468 edits (5.68% of total) and I have 432 edits (5.25% of total) right now. Your first edit was 8 Sept and mine Aug 10. I checked several other users and found one recently active one at almost 3%, several at 0.5% and the highest I could find was at 28.74%. http://tools.wmflabs.org/usersearch/index.html Legacypac (talk) 04:29, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Legacypac I can't specifically remember what this relates to. My personal view is that the content of your edits has been consistently good. GregKaye 07:57, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
We've both been accused of owning the same article - those are the real stats. Tonight, I just used the same tool and found 55% of the edits on Boko Haram - an astonishing 2438 edits - are by one user. It's missing a bunch of stuff (UN Security Council designation as terrorists, links to al-qaeda pledge to ISIL, declared a caliphate to start) and needs a serious fact check and rewrite. Legacypac (talk) 08:18, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Legacypac I think that such statistics may be relevant in substantiating any specifically asserted allegation of own but that the statistics, in themselves, proves nothing. Relevant OWN issues for you have related things like consultation issues such as when you made good faith and I think beneficial changes to article structure (which have largely been kept) but without consultation or when you've acted on suggestions in talk page on issues like archival settings. I appreciate that other editors may break these rules left and right but reporting back I think is a good practice ideal. I did not think that your previously expressed views on responses to gratitude were appropriate. My personal view has long been that there should be an emphasis on resolution and reconciliation in regard to editor and administrator intervention. There are editors that come who seem to me to be extremely prone to conflict and unreasoned argument and I think that, sometimes, it can be all too easy to respond in kind. Especially in a case where your argument may be right it can be easy to, contrary to your normal behaviour, respond harshly. GregKaye 09:07, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've taken such comments to heart and have moderated my approach to sound much calmer. I think that shows in the ANi just closed for example. Don't harp on stuff from months ago. I changed archive settings to longer once at your suggestion. It didn't stick - no big deal. I don't archive threads as quickly as before or if I've been involved in the thread. I'm not holding your ill conceived suggestion to impose sanctions against me, or your encouraging a disruptive highly offensive editor to engage in areas I edit when I've being ignoring him for months. I pointed out the stats after you almost called me the primary editor of an article and because we get accused of own regularly. Look we think very much alike on policy and there is no reason we need to criticize each other. There are plenty of editors who are happy to do attack us both and they seize on any perceived criticism by anyone to build on. Legacypac (talk) 09:38, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Legacypac In many cases I regard you as the benchmark against which calmness should be measured and the issue for which you gained the diplomacy barnstar or whatever it was I regard as stunning. I only mentioned the issue of the archive settings to illustrate the point which I hope, as a friend, you can get. I agree with your idea of the move but not the way it was conducted. Please be aware that this kind of thing has been known to grate with editors and I am mentioning this with good faith in the hope that you get the point. Yes it was ill conceived. A genuinely highly disruptive editor has no place in Wikipedia. The article is very widely contributed to by many editors and I regard you as one of the greatly valued movers and shakers of the article. Your infobox and headings developed have, IMO, been second to none as far as contributions to the article go but, in the second case, I don't think that it should be down to other editors to establish consensus approval of the changes made. The stats tool looks really useful. In talk page stats, while you make a moderate 6% of contributions I possibly came as second highest contributor at ~16% of total contributions. I can live with that. Other editors may edit and argue in extreme ways and this lays people open to criticism. The best way not to have criticisms stick is to do no wrong. When I asked for reasons that I might be given a topic ban I do not think that there was anything that any editor would have had to say. I have made my mistakes, which I think in the Wikipedia scheme of things, were relatively minor, and have learned my lessons.
I have seen other editors work in a partisan type of way which sickens me. My hope is that Wikipedia will take a firm line on issues like canvassing and other abuses. We will see.
There have been times of pressure in WP and I have previously left messages saying things like thanks for the thanks. Hopefully those times have past. Its a new year. I foresee that we may have a less confrontational talk page. Let's see what happens. GregKaye 18:06, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Signature

GregKaye you still need to change you signature to your new name, at the moment it links to your old name User:Gregkaye and User talk:Gregkaye and then is redirected back to your new name User:GregKaye. -- PBS (talk) 12:09, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry PBS. I think that I made the wrong changes when looking at this last time. Do I need to go back over old edits to make changes? Some discussions have been/ may have been collapsed. GregKaye 07:52, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Everytime I click your name to get to your talk its redirected correctly, so I see no value in editing old comments. Legacypac (talk) 09:42, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Only if you want to. As Legacypac says the redirects work. -- PBS (talk) 12:33, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A question for you

see Talk:2014 Iranian-led intervention in Iraq#Requested move December 2014 -- PBS (talk) 12:35, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Good call, thanks. GregKaye 13:01, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As it happens I do not think any muppet will be jumping up and down at this move, but as an involved editor you should not have made it. It should have been obvious from my posting that I intended to close it as soon as I though enough time had passed for those who wished to express an opinion on my proposed dab extension had been given time to express an opinion. We have seen contested pre-emptive moves in this area and making one yourself means that in future you will not be able to criticise such move without exposing yourself to accusations of hypocrisy. -- PBS (talk) 10:18, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

PBS The only thing that I have been wanting is to edit articles, as I see it, so that they will be free of POV. I push had been made to close discussion immediately after another editor had raised another option. I didn't agree with the content but that was immaterial. The old quote comes into play, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". I was happy with my actions as a way to give options to either continue the discussion or shut it down at admin's discretion. As an involved editor I made a consensus move in a transparent way on the understanding that further discussion might modify or revoke the move. I do not see that I have been compromised here. GregKaye 19:19, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:DASH

Hello. Please consider moving the two pages, 'Category:Islamist terrorist incidents, 2000-2009' and 'Category:Islamist terrorist incidents, 2010-2019' to 'Category:Islamist terrorist incidents, 2000–2009' and 'Category:Islamist terrorist incidents, 2010–2019', respectively. --Omnipaedista (talk) 15:24, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

For the moment this policy is the status quo. You simply choose to arbitrarily ignore it. --Omnipaedista (talk) 15:45, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Omnipaedista there is policy on clear issues such as NOR and NPOV that makes coherent sense and there is policy such as in the case of MOS:DASH that, in many cases, seems to me to fly in the face of real world usage. Surely the editors breaking NOR and NPOV are those that continually push for the preservation of the use of dashes in MOS against real world usage. GregKaye 15:58, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There is a clear distinction between core policy and style guidelines. MOS:DASH is a style guideline, so violating it is not a big matter. I just want to note that as long as a style guideline (part of Wikipedia's "house style") is the status quo, not following it is technically a violation of it (see also WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT and WP:CON). --Omnipaedista (talk) 16:03, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Omnipaedista I honestly think that there are better things for editors to do than to spend time chasing after and changing grammatical issues that fly in the opposite direction of real word use. It makes no sense to me. I just don't like things that I personally think make Wikipedia look antiquated and silly. I don't object to the use of the dash if that's what people choose to use and am happy to support editors in this choice. GregKaye 16:24, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Style is not just about making articles look pretty. Style has semantic meaning. There are always good reasons behind English Wikipedia's guidelines. --Omnipaedista (talk) 16:36, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Omnipaedista The only difference that I see between "2000-2009" and "2000–2009" is that the first is readily searchable. I don't see that making a change at this stage will be worth the effort. GregKaye 17:09, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The semantic meaning here is "range value": Dash#Ranges of values. --Omnipaedista (talk) 23:00, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Omnipaedista You have supplied a useful reference to both "En dash range style" and "Hyphen range style". I agree that, the semantic meaning here is "range value" but, as is clearly indicated by trawls of sources, it is a semantic meaning that is most commonly conveyed with the use of hyphens. GregKaye 06:28, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Deleted comment here by Omnipaedista. I tend to give up when editors start quoting Latin.
If you want to continue to argue this point please do so in English. This is an English Wikipedia that works in the context of English sources, sources that primarily use hyphens to convey range value. "2000-2009" and "2000–2009" have the same semantic meaning. They are just stylised, as I see it, to trends of different times. GregKaye 07:00, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The point of the comment you deleted was this: when editors edit their own website they can use whatever convention they like. When editors edit Wikipedia, they are to follow Wikipedia's conventions. I have just moved the above-mentioned categories. --Omnipaedista (talk) 07:23, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Omnipaedista: GregKaye and I have had our differences (one might say nothing but differences), but I struggle to see why you find this a battle worth fighting. Prominently displayed from the top of the MoS page you linked is the following: This guideline is a part of the English Wikipedia's Manual of Style. Use common sense in applying it; it will have occasional exceptions. Greg already provided a reason to ignore this (quite silly) rule, and I suggest that your time would be better served doing absolutely anything else. VQuakr (talk) 07:36, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
VQuakr Thank you
@Omnipaedista: This is also point which can also be fairly applied to newspapers and books. Please do not misrepresent. I was pleased that you previously noted that this issue "is not a big matter". I noted as first thing in my initial reply that "I have no objection to other's making the moves" and yet we have had this long conversation. No substantial change has been made. Everything is as intelligible as it was. GregKaye 07:52, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Opinions at ISIS/ISIL/IS requested move

You need to move your expressed opinion up out of the "Further discussion" section or it may be missed by the closing admin. Most of the comment can stay there (just change "oppose" to "comment") and place a new opinion (presumably oppose) up above in the survey part along with a brief reason for your opposition to the move. -- PBS (talk) 20:17, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

PBS thanks for this again. sorry to have left you with this hassle. GregKaye 20:50, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Homosexuality

Hi, the editor raising the issue at ANI was the same editor avoiding a block. This is a long-term problem editor from South America who has previously been blocked numerous times for trolling such pages. They are quite aware that their behaviour is an issue and so WP:DENY is the best route here. Thanks, Black Kite (talk) 18:47, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

GregKaye, there are some editors so disruptive over a period of time that it is senseless to negotiate with them. Kudos for assuming good faith, but this time it's not going to work. Jehochman Talk 15:50, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Jehochman thanks for the unwarranted Kudos . Not that it matters but I had assumed a mixture of Bad faith and delusion. I support strong action by anyone prepared to soil their hands in dealing with these people but, regardless of this, I think it worth questioning approach. AN/I has a habit of shutting down discussion IMO and I am less than convinced that this is always the best way to proceed. My remarks are more comment than criticism and am pleased that admin Black Kite stepped in to validate the close. GregKaye 16:13, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Islamist"

The main problem with the usage of words such as "Islamist" is that there is a huge misconception in western world that thinks Islam is one monolithic thing, when in reality Islam has may branches and interpretrations. When you place such a suffix as "-ist" it only perpetuates this misunderstanding. 80.43.207.148 (talk) 10:46, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

80.43.207.148 Understood. The alternative is to used lesser used words like "jihadist" which runs into problems in that many people with Mohammedan faiths do not regard extremists as following anything like a doctrinally faithful interpretation of jihad. Its in the name of Islam or in the name of an even more specific Mohammedan doctrine. Personally I would prefer us to use the word extremist or similar. GregKaye 19:16, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

<chuckle>

Do I detect a taste of sour grapes? Pdfpdf (talk) 10:09, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Pdfpdf I recognise your name. In what connection? GregKaye 10:11, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Don't worry. If the connection was not immediate and obvious to you, then I have probably "got it wrong".
Best wishes for a happy and prosperous 2015. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 10:15, 17 January 2015 (UTC) Happy New Year.[reply]

Interview for The Signpost

This is being sent to you as a member of WikiProject Discrimination

The WikiProject Report would like to focus on WikiProject Discrimination for a Signpost article. This is an excellent opportunity to draw attention to your efforts and attract new members to the project. Would you be willing to participate in an interview? If so, here are the questions for the interview. Just add your response below each question and feel free to skip any questions that you don't feel comfortable answering. Multiple editors will have an opportunity to respond to the interview questions, so be sure to sign your answers. If you know anyone else who would like to participate in the interview, please share this with them. Thanks, Rcsprinter123 (jive) @ 20:50, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Move review

There is currently a discussion at WP:MR to which you may be associated with. The thread can be found here. Thanks. Qxukhgiels (talk) 22:27, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Points raised previously

Hello Gregkaye. My apologies for the late reply, I was slightly indisposed. Having looked through the points you had previously raised, I will attempt to address them.

Point 1 - "Circus"

  • I will discuss this but it is with great displeasure (not at you but for me). I dismissed the points raised as a circus because the titlechange policy stated that we do not take moral or political right into consideration. In spite of this, editors felt compelled to raise the issue in contrary to the aforementioned policy. Though I understand the reasoning, it was felt unnecessary, at least to me. Now to the politics bit. During the cold war, there was a systematic campaign of information warfare which has been documented extensively. This is not seen so favourably now and is something that the people who were involved, are not so proud about. In the end, what is better always prevails. Even without all that information warfare and propaganda, capitalism was still going to come out triumphant in the end. There was no need to de-legitimise the other party then, and there is no need to concern ourselves with de-legitimising ISIL now. This campaign back then and also now, with various stakeholders taking issue with certain things, is what I called a circus. I thought it was obvious, but alas it has been shown that I should qualify all statements. When the information is presented in accordance to our policy, there is little chance it could legitimise this group.

Point 2 - me raising issue at your mention of life taking killers (I am not sure if I did raise an issue but I will assume I did)

  • This is because Wikipedia is not a forum on which to discuss the topics at hand. As this is not a forum, it is hardly a problem, if an editor requests that you do not air your views in such a fashion on the article page. You also state your views about the media which respectfully, I must inform you that your views are irrelevant in that regard when it comes to editing an article. We use the words journalists write and you raising your objections about their decision to use the name, frankly is slightly annoying and bordering on a forum discussion. This is why I used the words drivel and empty air. I will refrain from using these words, seen as you do not like them. As they were used without any intent of incivility but rather to clarify reality as seen through the lens of Wikipedia policy, could you recommend alternative words that would be acceptable to you.

Point 3 - your comment on ISIL page with stamp: 11:18, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

  • I disagree with all the points apart from the aspersion bit. I read the link you posted and I understand what you meant. If aspersions are made, they have to be backed up by evidence which is something I did not do. I apologise for this.

I hope that cleared some of the issues at hand. Regards Mbcap (talk) 23:14, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Mbcap
    • Even if we just highlight your text: "If I allow the circus surrounding the issue to affect me, it will impact on my contribution to the article" I would hope that you can see that you are dismissing a great number of notable political figures as clowns and jugglers and the like. Is that really how you dismiss people? Again surrounding is a fairly encompassing qualifier. "I dismissed the points raised as a circus." Please do not do things like this. If you have a point to make then make your point.
    • In your first reply you used the word context three times even though I maintain that I kept things in context. Now, again, you quote my mention of "life taking killers" out of context of my original question: "How the hell did journalists come to the decision to ignore the wishes of the majority of the Muslim world so as to follow the preferences of a a group of liberty and life taking killers?" In future occasion I will know to order words like "life" and "liberty" differently so that you will not consistently pluck selective quotations. If you are talking about forum your attack on editor contributions as drivel and empty air go high on the list. Journalists have made decisions of terminological use and these decisions have ignored the wishes of the majority of the Muslim World so as to follow the preferences of a group of "life and liberty taking killers". Arguments were clearly presented and civil responses are required. Again, to keep conversation in context, you said, "If in the future you find anything I write objectionable, then I would say please do not ascribe to malice that which could be explained by stupidity." This is not good enough. For editors to edit Wikipedia they are required to be civil. This is arguably the most basic requirement of Wikipedia and one of its WP:FIVEPILLARS. I presented solid content. There is no relevant explanation or excuse for your unjustified, unfairly and derisory dismissal of this content as "drivel and empty air". You now ask me to "recommend alternative words". Forget the words. Present your arguments so as to address the argument at hand. Say why you think the opposing argument is wrong and why yours is right. You might, if relevant, say why you think an argument is presented unfairly if ever appropriate. Your unsubstantiated attacks are unacceptable in any form of words used. Please try to get the point. Attacks are unacceptable. End.
    • My comment with with stamp: 11:18, 19 January 2015 is here. It was pretty much a reply to your continued aspersion. I have tried to broach this issue with you on a personal basis and yet with repeat incidence I have reverted to direct response on the article talk page as other editors might do. I found the thread that you started with what I consider to be its prejudgemental title "Barn door POV pushing in the lead" to have an extremely lengthy content with I high level of arguing against editors rather than the issue. I objected to this type of methodology on your talk page. You edited my edit adding your comments throughout my content and then, for whatever reason and within this context, you then posted a link to the doctored thread on your talk page. Despite this and despite my statement of weak support for the opposing argument I then, in good faith, added comment to highlight the issue of "the placement of the content of the second paragraph." THIS WAS DONE IN GOOD FAITH. You had asserted, "The other reasons it has gone quite in that thread, is because of the clear ownership issues here and the persistent effort to alienate all editors who wish to make this article neutral." Editors may disagree and editors may expect civil behaviour but this should and does not constitute alienation. If context is important to you then please consider placing your replies to content so that they follow the content that you are replying to. It would make responding a lot easier as otherwise unnecessary efforts would not need to be made to return comments to context. GregKaye 16:06, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I shall agree to disagree as I do not feel you are willing to take any consideration of the points I have raised. My barn door pov lead talk page section was one of the first things I did on wikipedia. The language used may have been inapropriate but that is simply because I did not know how things worked here. As to the barn door nature of the lead, the lead is quite barndoor POV pushing. I can hold that position and other editors have felt the same way before. As to the alienation, I was referring to P123, Documenterror and the editor who edits the justifications section. Mbcap (talk) 16:38, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Mbcap There is no alienation. There are WP:guidelines that we all need to follow.
I understand but don't fully agree with your assertion about the lead and for this reason I did what I could to keep the discussion that you mentioned open. If any editor here is to address NPOV a starting point might be the presentation in Wikipedia's voice of human rights abuses such as the use of women as slaves and the ethnic cleansing and persecution of communities as having "justifications". GregKaye 17:09, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
GregKaye can't respond to the one of your points, but I will. You are lining up with a topic banned editor, a site blocked editor, and a "ban on sight" sock farm. Can you see where this attitude could lead? Inserting long quotes from terrorists justifying their actions is not cool - quite a few editors are deleting the socks crap while you reinsert it? I asked you nicely to undo your insertion, but you did not, and you argue on. Legacypac (talk) 17:26, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Come on legacypac, this is quite unfair to associate me in such a way. Also what do your edit summaries mean. They always sound like you are trying to deliver a message. I can read your comment on the page, you do not need to write the edit summary the way your do. I re-inserted it, after you deleted it. You have clear ownership issues with that page, who do you think you are closing discussions on the ISIL page. Let that be my evidence for the statement I just made. Those are justifications used by the group and they are documented in reliable sources. As the page is about ISIL, it is entirely appropriate to include that informatino there. Mbcap (talk) 17:38, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Greg I agree words like drivel and empty air are not appropriate comments. I will henceforth, cease using those words and I apologise for using them. Mbcap (talk) 15:37, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You, not me, named three editors who you agree with. I'm just noting their status. Any editor can close any discussion. I explained that to you already. I've only done some minor housekeeping to help save editors time. Legacypac (talk) 17:00, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No legacypac, you are simply by my impression, the owner of the ISIL page. You close discussions, censor talk page posts by other IP's, you blank other IP's posts (does not matter if they are socks, their comment stays), you have according to me; complete disregard for building an encyclopedia as shown by your revert of my addition of the ISIL portal link and you label others as cyber terrorist, dirty socks and so on. You are here to simply further your agenda and using this encyclopedia as a political advocacy tool. I will not put up with this. You are extremely disrespectful as shown by your attempted bullying on the ISIl talk page regarding the justifications section. You disparage the work of other editors by calling it nonsense. You delete good revertes such as the one of the Abu Bakr Al-baghdadi page because they, by my impression, do not further your own cause in light of your world view. This is not a soapbox or a political think tank. We are here simply to build an encyclopedia. It is just a shame that I do not know my way around here but hopefully someday I will find a way to do away with your bullying, innapropriate manners and strong arming of other editors. I promise you a day will come when every editor will be made felt welcome on the ISIl page or any other related pages. Mbcap (talk) 17:11, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well your impression is wrong. You make sweeping assertions, but where are your diffs? I rarely close discussions and only when the close is obvious. I'm fully entitled to do that. It is common to remove all comments by sockpuppets, part of cleanup. A "new" IP showing up to argue the point of a sock banned an hour before is perfectly fine to delete or strike. If we let that stuff stay it just emboldens them to do more damage. There is even a tool to automatically rollback ALL edits by such users. The Cyber-terrorist point is recycled from an ANi's where it was dismissed as nonsense. I'm not bullying you, I asked you to explain the insertion of copyvio off topic material that you said was fine. Now stop your threats and casting of aspirations please. Legacypac (talk) 17:23, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have asked an admin to advise me on how to deal with yourself Legacypac. I have tried extremely hard to be civil with you but you are the most unprofessional long standing editor I have ever met on here. Something needs to be done about your clear political advocacy here which is becoming extremely disruptive and is not in line with the encyclopedias long term goals and ambitions. I find it extremely hard to edit here because of your use of the talk pages as a forum and your constant attempts to undermine me on every occasion. You are joined in this task, by what I suspect (this is just my suspicion) is an army of IP's who label me as a duck and harass me as evident from past posts. You are also joined, as is my impression, by your greatest enabler, Gregkaye who allows you to reign supreme on the page. You two constantly support each other, air the same views and treat the talk page as your own discussion forum. This section on this page and also the one on my page, shows how you two constantly tag team me. This is just a guess, but I also find your revert of the ISIL portal link not so long ago, an attempt to lure me into breaking the 1RR so you could report me. That was a wrong edit on your part anyway. Could you please undu yourself. You also use your edit summaries in a way that is not conducive to cordial collaboration between editors. Mbcap (talk) 17:42, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank-you for so clearly laying out your agenda.
I don't use IPs or any other accts to edit. Never have, never will. That is a serious allegation completely unsupported by any evidence. You have made a range of inappropriate allegations about me here and elsewhere and you need to stop that now.
I intend to remove more links to that useless portal and hopefully kill off the portal itself eventually as it has long been used mainly for POV pushing. That should be pretty clear from my posts and edits on the topic.
As for alleged tag teaming and undermining you- not true. I imagine it must be hard to push a minority POV that does not meet various WP policies. There are articles at WP I find hugely POV and offensive, but I just avoid those because there is no way I can change them. Legacypac (talk) 18:12, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Has anyone seen my talk page? I'm sure it was here somewhere. What the hell fuck is going on. Mbcap the whole presence of this thread is inappropriate as it was started in response to involved content on your talk page. Legacypac, similarly I have repeatedly asked you to consider the ways in which you join in discussions in threads on my talk page and, in general, I would prefer you not to do it. Mbcap, wtf. I am my own person. I present what I think is right for the presentation of encyclopaedic content in Wikipedia in accordance with its guidelines and in this I am deeply offended that you describe me as someone's "enabler". This, like all other locations in Wikipedia, is not the place for you to air your "impressions". Your actions continue, in your words, to alienate. All you are doing is asserting unsubstantiated vague allusions with no substance, amazing coming from an editor who makes criticisms about empty air. If you think I am an enabler then please read the background to this talk page and the fallacy of your argument will soon become crystal clear. It becomes more clear to me that you present one unsubstantiated criticism and spin after another. Don't come to my talk page saying that you are sorry for past offences while merely continuing your jibes. I stand on my own and will continue to resist your slurs and insinuations. The main person that I have enabled is you. The Barndoor thread had utterly lost its track and It Was Me who gave it a chance to get back on its direction. Legacypac, if there are "articles at WP I find hugely POV and offensive" and you let them alone, then let them alone. If you have points to make about specific contents then make them. I do not want my talk page to become part a battleground. You close discussions with regularity and while, arguably, you are "fully entitled" to do so, it is none-the-less unsettling for editors who see potentially unnecessary closures occurring. If you want to address issues with other editors then please do so on that editor's talk page. Any content henceforth on this threat that is not addressed to me will be deleted. Any attack or unsubstantiated content will be treated similarly. GregKaye 20:44, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Edit warring

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Regards, “WarKosign” 13:17, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Full picture

add: The following relates to content placed on StanMan87's talk page here

You have provided two possible choices: Islamic State of Iraq and Syria and ISIS (Islamist rebel group). I opted to vote for the former, with the acronym of ISIS replacing ISIL when referring to the group not only in the main body of the article, but any article which refers to the group as ISIL so as to match the new title which would be Islamic State of Iraq and Syria. I don't know if this is confusing for you... The "A re-cap for you:" section was to illustrate to RGloucester that he favors the title which provides the least amount of either 1.) Accuracy or 2.) Commonality/Recognition out of all the possible names for the group, and the acronyms associated with them. As for the group not being considered Islamic, this is debatable. What makes Saudi Arabia so different from the Islamic State? I will say that both you and I have completely different views on that little Pandora's box you just mentioned. I will say no more than that. That comment you are referring to was completely 100% relevant. You should be aware that you are calling the article something the group is not which therefore will mislead users. What I mean by this is the designation Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant or the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria/Greater Syria/al-Sham will become irrelevant (as if it has already) if the group continues expanding far beyond those regions which they have started doing ever since late 2014, albeit slowly. Algeria, Libya, Egypt (Sinai), parts of the Afghan-Pakistan border and now apparently in Yemen [1] are places where IS has a presence. So this is a very relevant question which has to be looked at when deciding to refer to the article title as anything else except either Da'ish or Islamic State (IS). Are you just going to pretend that IS doesn't exist outside Iraq and Syria to stop it from being renamed Islamic State? That is irresponsible. Sooner or later, if/when IS becomes more prevalent outside Iraq in Syria not only in the regions I mentioned, but even in places like Xinjiang in China or the Caucasus region, having either Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) or Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) will no longer be appropriate for the title of the article, unless a disclaimer has been placed as to why Wikipedia will not rename it which will be considered as adhering to a sharp POV, something an Encyclopedia doesn't possess. But you are going to have to find a way to solve that little problem pretty soon. StanMan87 (talk) 08:56, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

StanMan87 I do not want to get into a long debate here about article titles. Vast content is already being posted on the ISIL talk page. In my post I requested: "Please do not derail the current discussion especially with content that, in my view, neglects to mention relevant Wikipedia article title issues." I think that you are utterly incorrect in your assertion that RGloucester "favors the title which provides the least amount of either 1.) Accuracy or 2.) Commonality/Recognition". Contrary to my RM proposal, Levant has long been regarded to be a relatively highly accurate translation of al-Sham and, considered in isolation, "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" gets more searches and hits than "Islamic State of Iraq and Syria". The main reason that the move is proposed is due to commonality to ISIS. Saudi Arabia is recognised as a state, doesn't run whole communities up mountains, is not known for ethnic cleansing at a historic scale, do you want me to go on? Why the fuck do you mention "Pandora's box" and add that you will not say more. Either speak to editor's plainly or not at all. Don't leave unjustified loose ends hanging. There are many ways in which readers can be mislead and I would argue that two of them were raised when the group described themselves to be both Islamic and a state. I suggest you do some parallel research into dependent territories and such like. Just because a recognised nation has associations in other locations does not mean that a name change is called for. I do not think that your argument makes sense. Burma, as another article example, has not had its name changed to Myanmar. There no pretence and yes we all need to be responsible for the entirety of content. Please do not add unjustified assertion and crystal ball comments here. ISIL/S are currently losing territory in the middle east and its purported growth in other areas seems largely due to the defection of the already converted. I heard the BBC refer to the Sinai group in such terms as an Islamist group with allegiance to ISIL and not as being ISIL themselves. GregKaye 09:46, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Would you like me to elaborate? I could alter your paradigm on the issue, if you wish. My reservation is that I hold a POV, and I feel it will disqualify me in further discussing this topic. But, I don't plan on editing Wikipedia forever, so I don't really mind what you think. Saudi Arabia decapitates, whips and enforces laws on people such as women, very similar to what the Islamic State/Taliban/Al-Qaeda affiliated groups enforce the population under their control. The Shi'a in Saudi Arabia are not cleansed, rather they are just left completely powerless in the Sunni kingdom. Clerics of Saudi Arabia have made some heinous statements on Jews [2], just as the Islamic State and al-Qaeda make from time to time. The vibe I'm getting is that it is un-islamic when a non-state actor or non-recognized state does these things, but when a state-actor does them it's somehow seen as 'normal', 'ok' or 'justifiable'?... In any sense my main grievance is this: What is 'Islamic' and what is a 'Muslim'.
According to you and the many other predominately western people in Europe, North America and Oceania a 'true Muslim' or a 'moderate Muslim' is what the UN, U.S or a plethora of western leaders and agencies state, what they want a Muslim to behave like, act like. And yet the ones who the West or 'civilized world' declare to be terrorists such as al-Qaeda, Islamic State, Boko Haram etc. are characterized as being 'jihadists', 'islamists', 'radicals', 'fundamentalists', 'ultraconservatives' and a whole range of other labels, except 'Muslims'. So why? Is it becuase they take the Qu'ran literally? The Sunnah literally? If that's the case, why does this then make them non-muslims? Surely anyone who takes something literally must be doing it the proper or 'orthodox' way? So if it is not that alone, than is it because they slaughter innocent lives? What makes a person innocent? Did God not take the lives of many innocents according to the Old Testament/Torah? At Sodom and Gomorrah where people engaged in acts of debauchery, that in western society would be considered normal, such as homosexual activity were they not slain by God and considered 'guilty of sin'?
An anecdote: A fellow that I knew professed to be a Catholic, adhering to the Catholic faith born into a Catholic family. He went to a school run by the Jesuits. I knew his commitment to faith was lackluster, he drinks alcohol and is known to have foregone his virginity before marriage. I asked him why do you call yourself a Christian? His response: The Bible was written 2000 years ago, 'we' aren't 'expected' to follow all of it or parts of it today (21st century). My response was forthright: Then why is it in the Bible in the first place? To be disregarded at your convenience? He really couldn't answer me back. Point is, you cannot pick and choose what you follow, either you follow all of it verbatim, or you are nothing more than a hypocrite. And I guarantee out of the 2 billion that call themselves 'Christians' only 5 million or less actually follow the Bible (Both the Old and the New Testaments) word for word, help the sick, feed the poor, stone homosexuals to death and everything else which is included in the Old Testament package. The same for Muslims, Jews and every other religion in the world based on proselytizing. The rest are just hypocrites. Practice what the religious books state, no matter how heinous, or don't call yourself religious. There is no excuse that it is no longer necessary to kill adulterers just becuase the law of the U.S (for example) says it's not ok and it's the 21st century. No, if you are truly religious and pious, then Gods Will should ascend the law of man, and adultery is met with death. And I know for a fact that the Qu'ran is no different to the Torah or Bible, with plenty of punishment.
Let me leave you with this: How has religion traditionally been spread? With bright pink roses and human right declarations? "Please adopt our faith?" or "Convert or die"? No, with violence, preaching and coercion. Fact: The spreading of Christianity to Europe and the Americas and Islam out of the Arabian Peninsula to North Africa and beyond was bathed in blood. And the Qu'ran and Old Testament was the justification. But I don't see anything in that violence that God wouldn't condone based on the stories of his vengeance and wrath. Just like the Islamic State today, or the Knights Templar of centuries old. And yet at the same time, there are peaceful parts of these religions... Makes no sense. Basically: I consider the Islamic State no more un-Islamic than the majority of Muslims in the west who have no to little facial hair, drink alcohol, smoke, do not wear modest clothing, barely fast during Ramadan, hardly attend prayer and do not know the difference between what is Halal and what is Haram. Like this person [3], go to 6:54. He calls himself a Muslim, and according to you and most westerners, this is what a Muslim is. Yet he is clean shaven which is against the Sunnah, (It is extremely recommended if not obligated to follow the path of The Prophet Muhammad, who had a beard) and has ear piercings which could be considered Bid'ah, as it is an innovation, similar to tattoos which are prohibited as it alters the creation of God. He seems to think there is no violence in Islam, in which case he's wrong. See Qu'ranic verses: 33:60, 17:16, 3:151, 2:216, 2:191, 47:4, 8:12 (There are more if you wish for me to cite them all). All make mention to violence, such as 'smiting' or 'kill'. And these are only from the Qu'ran! I haven't even been quoting the Hadiths yet! So, I ask, what makes the Islamic State un-islamic? Because Ban-Ki-Moon said so? Because Barrack Obama stated so? Because Tony Abbot said so? Because hypocrites say so? People who wish to claim that we live in the modern world and therefore those verses no longer apply, but the peaceful ones, they do? How convenient for the hypocrites. Like many 'religious' people, these hypocrites want the holy texts to fit their pre-established moral framework and way of thinking. So now, I will be eagerly awaiting a response from you, so that with your divine wisdom, you may answer me why the Islamic State is so 'un-Islamic' but why Muslims-In-Name-Only (hypocrites) are actual Muslims that the West continuously props up. StanMan87 (talk) 11:21, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
StanMan87 I would like it if relevant content is added to relevant in relevant places and that non directly related threads are not hijacked to WP:SOAPBOX your WP:CRYSTALBALLing such that "the term Islamic State (IS) will soon become the most and only viable alternative". This seems to me to be clear POV pushing. I would like you not to misrepresent editors such as RGloucester. Please desist from this kind of behaviour.
When I have talked of 'SIL I have taken considerable care to describe them in relation to other groups with Mohammedan based faiths. Of course I don't condone everything that a Saudi cleric may say any more than I won't condone everything that a British cleric may say. Prejudice bigots and hateful reactionaries exist in a great many places. (Incidentally the video you reference was largely directed at Russian populations with a side note/after thought reference being made to Jews. Why are people, seemingly to me, obsessed with Israel and the Jews in ISIL related connections? You will see at Talk:Israel that I am also keen to keep Israel to account for actions and also reject what I consider to be the PR spin of the use of terms like anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism when these are not clearly descriptive names in connection to Jewish people and Israel).
You mention the way that these groups are labelled in, for instance, the English speaking world. Groups such as those that you mention often describe themselves as Mujahideen yet advocate specifically Offensive jihad. This is despite the fact that many clear interpretations of Jihad consider the term to have a purely defensive nature.
Question. How does a literal interpretation of the Qu'ran justify the killing of a compassionate Japanese man who entered the middle east to plead for the release of another captive? How does it justify ethnic cleansing at a historic scale? How does it justify the killing of a British aid worker? How? I am sure that there are other personal backgrounds that I could go into but these are the ones I know. How? One of your verses says, "..But if they fight you, then kill them.." How does this equate to an Yazidi (for instance) town defending itself and getting massacred??? How? Another of your verses states "So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike [their] necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom [them] until the war lays down its burdens." How does this justify the killing of a compassionate Japanese man or a British aid worker? How? What in the world are you talking about?? People say that you can justify just about anything from the texts of religious books but what 'SIL has been doing is in a different league. I suggest, if you do want to pursue religion, that you also research religious doctrines on compassion and love. However so far you have done a good job at presenting facets of a religion that has nothing to do with a god that is both powerful while also being just/loving. If you postulate that there is a heaven and that god could have created any form of world in any form of fashion and to be able to be interventionist to the level described in your texts, then how come different people are born into different situations with variant levels of opportunity of knowing this god? This makes no sense to me.
I do not have, to my knowledge, any form of divine wisdom. All I have to offer is basic common sense and, as is typical, this is more than enough. You make your own judgements as to what a Muslim is. Other people have pushed various views and you may be interested in long standing content at Talk:Muslim#Honesty. Along with honesty, another typically key religious concept is that of justice. Most people in the world inclusive of many people with Mohammedan based faiths regard the British aid worker and the compassionate Japanese man to be innocent. The killing of such people amongst other of 'SIL's atrocities are unjustifiable in the sight of any religion and that includes Islam. This is what has turned so many thinking religious people against this group even more so than against others of similar ilk. How do these actions have anything to do with a god with any kind of heart? GregKaye 14:26, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to break everything you said bit by bit, or at least the parts worthwhile to respond to. Firstly, you are wrong. It is not pushing an opinion if it is a fact. The Islamic State has expanded to areas outside of Syria and Iraq and will continue to do so. The reason for this is becuase there is no united opposition against them. The U.S and its coalition is very inconsistent. It is aiding an illegal and sectarian Shi'a government in Iraq and tarnishing the Sunni revolutionaries with the same brush as it has tarnished the Islamic State (rightly or wrongly). Yet at the same time, it is opposing an Alawi-dominated government in Syria which has been just as sectarian... Now I am confused. The point is, every single participant wants something different. The Kurds in Iraq want independence. The Americans do not wish independence for them, or the Sunni and Shia regions will fight over independence and Iraq will no longer exist. There will be no stable Iraq. The Iranians want a puppet Shi'a dominated Iraqi government (which it has). They do not wish to overthrow Assad, as it suits there national security objectives. Turkey doesn't want Assad to remain, as he has been seen on clamping down on Sunnis, and using the PYD or Syrian Kurds to launch attacks into Turkey for years. Turkey does not want the Kurds in Syria to become independent, or else a dangerous precedent will be set for the Kurds of Turkey. This is why Turkey, or more correctly, elements in the Turkish armed forces were sympathetic to an Islamic State victory over the Kurds in northern Syria. Saudi Arabia and Qatar again want the overthrow of Assad, and a new Iraqi government. My point is this: each side wants something different. They are not united at all. That is why the Islamic State will expand, though granted, if it expands to much then I could possible see these nations come together. But better they do it now than wait for that moment, wouldn't you agree? This 'coalition' is just not going to work unless Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Egypt (The major players in the region) work together, which just wont happen at all. Now that I have explained this, lets move on to the part on when I stated it was the only 'viable' solution. It is the only viable solution, becuase as IS expands out of Iraq, Syria and even the Levant area, how the hell can you still justify calling it The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant when it has territory, a presence or active outside that geographical area?? How does this make any sense? Unless you had a POV disclaimer stating that We at Wikipedia refuse to call it the Islamic State (group) becuase it would hurt people feelings, it just would look unprofessional and stupid. Ok, moving on!
You asked me how I could justify the execution of IS victims using the Qu'ranic verses. You call them innocent. But this is exactly what I typed above, who decides what is innocent? God killed people that in the 21st century would be seen as innocent. Sodom and Gomorrah. They were killed for engaging in debauchery and decadence. The Islamic State have managed to interpret either some Qu'ranic verses, most likely from the Medina surah or some Hadiths of the Sunnah to justify the killings of those men (the American, British and Japanese journalists/aid workers). I am not a Muslim, so I cannot cite you a verse which condones the act or one that condemns it. I do not pretend to know allot about the religion. If I did, I'd be no better than a hypocrite. To me, the Islamic State has seen these men as being guilty, due to being the citizens of the nations which are bombing it (Japan, UK, U.S) and have decided to kill these people, due to the actions of their respective governments. The Islamic State at the same time, has released 81 Turkish hostages (that I know of, could be more) [4], [5]. Important to note that Turkey has not engaged with the Islamic State as much as other coalition forces, despite sharing a border with IS territory. This has always been a demand of IS to the U.S and the U.K, "stop bombing us or your citizens will be killed". Asymmetrical warfare, it's the only think IS can do to the U.S or U.K as it cannot launch conventional assaults on them.
On the Yazidi Question, looking through the Islamic States perspective, they see them as 'fire-worshipers' or something of the sort which they have equated to polytheism. It is therefore acceptable for Offensive Jihad to be carried out as you stated, through the verse 3:151 "We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve for what they have associated with Allah". I know not what the later part of this verse means. My interpretation is that whatever the Yazidi faith believes as being the creator of the world which is worshiped in Gods place, have associated another idol or deity in Gods place. 8:12 " I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."" this one is more self-explanatory. 47:4 "So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike [their] necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom [them] until the war lays down its burdens. That [is the command]. And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them [Himself], but [He ordered armed struggle] to test some of you by means of others. And those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds." Those whom the Islamic State are fighting through their Jihad fight back. Whether they are Yazidi, Kurds or Turkomen. The IS wish to bring the law of God which is stated in the Qu'ran and is known as the Shari'a. I do not know of any Qu'ranic verse which prohibits spreading the faith by means of the sword, or by setting up an Islamic State to live under. It must be embedded within Islam, considering the Rashidun caliphate, who were led by Muhammad successors spread Islam through expansion and conquests. However, I'm pretty sure in Islam you cannot be forcibly converted. Like it has to be through free will or something. But if you are relegated in society as a second class citizen (dhimmī), I suppose the prospect become more enticing. 4:24, this is the prime Qu'ranic verse used by the Islamic State to justify sexual slavery of the non-muslim women, mainly Yazidi and Kurdish women. "And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess" By "right hands possess", it refers to slaves. "And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. " I don't know what this refers to, whether it still is referring to the slaves or not. Finally, you speak of justice. Justice. The verses above seem not to grant the disbeliever justice. And God may be merciful, but being merciful doesn't always equate to feeling compassion. I want to add something, that what is happening today has happened before. The man Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi who has claimed himself as being Caliph reminds me of Caliph Yazid I who ascended as Caliph some 1400 years ago. He was a brutal man who oversaw the death of Muhammad's grandson and great-grand son (a 6 month old child, or as the legend goes) by beheading both after they had died at the Battle of Karbala. Yazid I exacerbated the schism that caused the Shi'a to emerge from the Sunni. StanMan87 (talk) 16:26, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
StanMan87 Did you bother to read WP:CRYSTAL. The word "will" as in "will continue to do so" relates to future tense. Do you claim a gift of prophesy or are you just soapboxing again on you opinion on an uncertain future. As far as I can tell 'SIL have recently expanded nothing other than an abhorrence for the extremist views and activities displayed. Members from within existing groups have pledged allegiance to al-Bagdadi but this constitutes movement and not growth. Governmental forces in Iraq are winning territorial gains. You abuse by making your unjustified "Pandora's box" type comments and you continue your scrying.
I agree with you in regard to mistakes in Iraq. Identity politics was already present in Iraq and coalition interventions enshrined this. If George Bush Jr's regime had any wits about it, it might have done something like dividing the country into Sunni and Shia areas and, hopefully, such a partition plan would have worked better than the one in Palestine, but this is personal opinion.
You are right when you say that different groups want different things. Welcome to the concept of groups. If you know anything about the European Union then you will know that places like the Middle East are not alone in being affected by this phenomena. However various of the groups concerned may well have one thing in common. Their members may not wish to be deprived of their liberties and potentially their lives through such sweeping actions that 'SIL have performed elsewhere.
Of course it is fine to call it the "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant". The United States of America still has that name even though it has many dependent territories added to which I am sure that you have also heard of Hawaii. This is about a quarter or the way around the world.
This is what I don't get about you and what you say. You say that you are not a Muslim and yet you push unqualified statements like "The IS wish to bring the law of God which is stated in the Qu'ran and is known as the Shari'a." In Wikipedia we do not even say the "prophet Mohamed" but rather refer to the "Islamic prophet Mohamed". It is not for us to declare anything in particular as being "of God" as this is taking sides and violates NPOV.
If, in response to the 7/7 bombing in London or to the German WWII blitz, the British government had responded by finding a Red Crescent volunteer or otherwise benevolently inclined German and then cut his/her head off then I would describe this as un-Buddhist, un-Christian, un-Islamic, un-anything you like.
When I do internet searches on terms like "Qu'ran" killing captive I typically find Islam themed sites saying why this is wrong. 'SIL acts as an aggressor against various towns and, when its male population surrenders, it kills very regularly kills them. I saw one 'SIL video in which captives had set up defences for an overrun town and the captive, talking while digging his own grave, was clearly ready to comply with anything that was set before him. However, Qu'ran based alternatives such as the cutting off of opposing hands and feet were not offered. Death was the single thing that is regularly prescribed.
Also, if you are not prepared to debate in a WP:CIVIL way and make unreferenced, unjustified claims isolating, "... parts worthwhile to respond to", then you have no business in engaging in dialogue in Wikipedia. As I have previously requested, "Either speak to editor's plainly or not at all." Don't disparage and insult. Despite the content of quotes in the article such as those from the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, who presumably knows his stuff, you seem to be pursuing this with a religious zeal. GregKaye 19:46, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No, I did not bother to read WP:CRYSTAL. I have told you I am nearly finished editing on this encyclopedia. I have no use to read it. You call there acts 'extreme', however what is considered 'extreme' today was once 'normal' some time ago, during the Biblical age, which these people (And not just IS, but also Taliban/AQ/Boko Haram/Caucasian Emirate etc.) get there inspiration from. And I do admit, (POV warning) I would l-o-v-e to see Shari'a be spread. Granted, it has certain flaws which could be improved (such as needing a certain number of eye-witnesses in certain cases and the status of women which needs to be fixed). But it is far better and more morally Just then the Western legal systems which are permeated with the ideas of 'liberalism' (The idea that you can do something as long as it doesn't harm other people, e.g drink alcohol, adultery, sell your body for money). A rapists gets how many years in prison where you live? A person who has committed an unjustified homicide? A person who beats you or steals from you? These people don't even get decapitated, let alone a ligament severed from their body in these countries. No finger or anything. Pff, if Shari'a has these punishments attached to laws, than I will gladly show any group espousing such beliefs the way to my Capital city. This isn't meant for a reference condoning the Islamic State. They do things which anger me. The rape of women primarily is what infuriates me about this group. The murder of the hostages, especially Kenji Goto who I had hoped would live also infuriates me. The other Japanese hostage I have little sympathy for. He traveled to Syria to make money off the suffering of people there by trying to start an arms-dealership 'business'. I am sure you are aware that twice al-Qaeda affiliated individuals have tried to save the lives of some of these hostages. Alan Henning was also defended by the al-Nusra Front [6]. Peter Kassig, who converted to Islam, was defended by a commander in the al-Nusra Front (Al-Qaeda in Syria) [7], [8]. There was also a bid to free him from two senior Salafi scholars Abu Muhammad al-Maqdisi and Abu Qatada [9].The Islamic State killed him which is against the Qu'ran, to kill a fellow believer, and the IS men who knew about, ordered, and committed the act are going to have to justify that before God (If you believe in that). However, it is also against Islam to do many things, things which are committed everyday by those you see walking along the streets where you live who call themselves "Muslims". No, I am not a Muslim. I believe the universe was created through an event known as the Big-Bang. But I believe a superior entity made that event so. I do not believe in miracles or messiahs. But I believe in a supreme being, a God. I would love to belong to a faith. Whether it is Islam, Christianity or Judaism. However, I could not live an everyday life by following the Qu'ran, Torah or Gospel verbatim. I wouldn't be able to stone adulterers, behead murders and rapists. Cut the body parts off thieves. You may think this POV is somehow morally backward, and twisted. But I argue that anything less then death for those people is sick and twisted. I believe in harsh punishment. An eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth. All of these are mentioned not only in the Qu'ran, but in the Torah and Gospel. I couldn't commit any of these acts of punishment where I live. So I'd be a hypocrite and wouldn't be following those rules and laws. You cited the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia. He has denounced the Islamic State. Yet his state has similar laws and punishments to those the Islamic State have enforced. The only reason I can see as to why he and other Saudi clerics have denounced the Islamic State is becuase had they not, they would be arrested by the House of al-Saud for fear of being collaborators. His position would be threatened. He and the other Wahhabi clerics need the royal Saudi family to maintain their privileged position in Saudi society. This is the same man who said that all churches should be destroyed in Saudi Arabia [10]. The same man who said that marrying a women below 15 is "permissible" [11]. I'll leave you again with something that happened in the past, 36 years ago. 1979, the Grand Mosque seizure in Mecca. Muslims who were considered 'radicals' seized the Grand Mosque in a bid to force the Saudi government to stop modernizing the nation and remove all western influence which had been embedded within the country since the end of WWII. They were known as the al-Ikhwan. The Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia at the time, Abd al-Aziz ibn Baz taught and mentored many of the mutineers. He and the ruling Ulema (clerics) offered only very veiled criticism to the insurgents. They wouldn't denounce them as 'un-islamic' until the royal family pressed them for a fatwa to enter the mosque and remove them. Even then, the insurgents were only referred to as 'the armed group' rather than terrorists. So don't look to Saudi clerics for religious guidance in the matter on the Islamic State. Public criticism doesn't always mean private condemnation. (Digression) The original Ikhwan who were formed around 1913 a hundred years ago exactly from when the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham was formed in 2013 were very similar. They were known to cut the throats of people that they had defeated in battle and to massacre vast sums from towns and villages. History does repeat itself. StanMan87 (talk) 03:08, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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