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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by ARTEST4ECHO (talk | contribs) at 13:10, 17 September 2015. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Ordinance (LDS Church)

Ordinance (LDS Church) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Ordinance (LDS Church) is a newly created article which is largely word-for-word identical to the existing article Ordinance (Latter Day Saints). Clearly, both are describing near-identical things although there are some subtle differences which the author contends are important enough to warrant a separate article, although this seems to be an undesirable WP:FORK. To me, any differences are clearly better dealt with within the original article; in the current form it is difficult to ascertain what the differences actually are, requiring a side-by-side comparison - which will become worse in future as ongoing edits will render such comparisons near impossible. The author of the new article opposes rationalising the articles back into one and claims this is the correct way to proceed, although I and another editor dispute this. For discussion see Talk:Ordinance_(LDS_Church)#Contested deletion, Talk:Ordinance_(Latter_Day_Saints)#LDS_POV and User talk:ARTEST4ECHO#Your contributed article, Ordinance (LDS Church). RichardOSmith (talk) 09:02, 17 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly Oppose
  1. They are word-for-word identical to each other. If you go to Compare Pages you will see that there are major differences between the two pages. A side by side comparison is a simple matter. Here as just 4 'Major examples of how that are differnt (and I could list many more):
    1. The "Temple ordinances" section. It covers the fact that most sects do not practice these at all, as only the original church founded by Smith, the LDS Church-derived and Cutlerite-derived denominations do these ordinance. It will also cover ordinance that only sects like Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite) practice.
    2. The inclusion of the 3rd Priesthood (the Patriarchal priesthood) justification for Lineal succession (Mormonism) in many sects, but wholly rejected by the LDS Church, Ordinance (LDS Church) only list two priesthoods.
    3. The non-saving ordinances includes information that some ordinance that are not practiced by the LDS Church, such as Animal sacrifice, Foot washing, The Lord's Supper and Evangelist's blessing The LDS Church page doesn't include this information as they have never done these ordinances.
    4. The LDS Church page has a section on ordinances that it did practice, but now doesn't.
  2. This is how MOS:LDS and WP:NCLDS has defined how articles related to the Latter Day Saint movement vs the LDS Church is supposed to work. For example Sacrament (Community of Christ) vs Sacrament (LDS Church) vs Sacrament (Latter Day Saints) and First Presidency (Latter Day Saints) vs First Presidency (Community of Christ) vs First Presidency (LDS Church) and Priesthood (Latter Day Saints) vs Priesthood (LDS Church) vs Priesthood (Community of Christ). There are hundreds of sect that fall under the "Latter Day Saint" umbrella. Maybe an administrators who understands how the Latte Day Saint movement is broken up, such as @Good Olfactory:, can better explain this.
  3. To force the LDS Church, the Community of Christ, the Church of Christ (Temple Lot), The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite) and the hundreds of other sects to share the same page is both impractical it is very POVish towards those that believe the LDS Church is the only true successor to Smith. It would be like asking the "Christianity" pages to conform only to the Catholic churches beliefs. That is why MOS:LDS and WP:NCLDS set up this method. What RichardOSmith seems to be missing is that there are major doctoral differences between the different sects.
  4. Another editor has not dispute the contents on the page. The only other editor has been @Jgstokes:, who seemed to me to agreed that the "Latter Day Saints" page had an inappropriate LDS Church POV, and seemed to agree that as it was written it was a (LDS Church) version instead of the (Latter Day Saints) version it should be. I have as of yet seen Jgstokes disagree with me. We have worked together to improve the page. The only other person involved, besides RichardOSmith, has been Drmies, who seems to have a problem with the way I created the page not its content. (see my talk page. I feel he doesn't yet know the facts and will address that there as I did not just Copy and Paste it as he suggests. If you go to the histories, you will see I did a massive rewrites, using my sandbox, in a way moved the page to Ordinance (LDS Church), and modified it to included information on other sects as should have been Ordinance (Latter Day Saints), using my sandboxes. If anything (Latter Day Saints) is a copy of the new (LDS Church).
As time goes on more and more differences will come up. I have only as of yet added 5 of the major Latter Day Saint denominations to the the (Latter Day Saint) page. I think deleting (LDS Church) will only harm things as then there were be ether a POV toward the LDS Church or a POV away from the LDS Church. Again this is why MOS:LDS and WP:NCLDS has defined defined it to work this way.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 12:08, 17 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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