Talk:Libs of TikTok: Difference between revisions

Content deleted Content added

Inline

Revision as of 06:35, 2 August 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Libs of TikTok article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8: 7 days

Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments, look in the archives, and review the FAQ before commenting.

view · edit

Frequently asked questions

Q1: Shouldn't Wikipedia remove the identity of the account manager?

A1: Community consensus is that the identity of the account manager should remain up.

Q2: Didn't a Washington Post journalist doxx the account manager?

A2: Reliable sources dispute this characterization and note that The Washington Post journalist only further publicized the identity of the account manager.

Q3: Why is the account described as reposting content in a derogatory manner?

A3: Reliable sources agree that the account editorializes the content it posts, specifically in a derogatory manner.

Q4: The tweets about gender affirming care at hospitals weren't false, and I can prove it!

A4: The Washington Post, USA Today, NPR, and PolitiFact, and other publications have rejected the tweets and claims by Libs of TikTok as false. Now-changed descriptions on hospital websites have been discredited by publications and hospitals as erroneous compared to actual hospital policy.

Q5: This account isn't far-right and is actually only anti-grooming/anti-trans/right-wing/etc.

A5: Right-wing and anti-trans does not preclude far-right. Sourcing from the Washington Post, NBC, USA Today, and Vice have all used far-right to directly describe the account, while other sources state the account retweets far-right content or directly enables far-right actions. See also discussions: [1] [2] [3]

Warning: active arbitration remedies

The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:

You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on this article (except in limited circumstances)

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to articles about living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles, which is a contentious topic. Please consult the procedures and edit carefully.

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, which is a contentious topic. Please consult the procedures and edit carefully.

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.

If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.

Internet Low‑importance

	Internet portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Internet, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Internet on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.InternetWikipedia:WikiProject InternetTemplate:WikiProject InternetInternet articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Internet culture Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Internet culture, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of internet culture on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Internet cultureWikipedia:WikiProject Internet cultureTemplate:WikiProject Internet cultureInternet culture articles

Low

This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

WikiProject Internet culture To-do:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Article requests : View all requested internet culture articles
Expand : Pick an article from here or here
Photo : Category:Internet culture articles needing images
Stubs : All stubs are located here
Other : Category:Internet self-classification codes (!?); Try to get YouTube to FA; Tag all articles you find with {{WikiProject Internet culture}}
- See also Category:Internet culture articles needing attention

Conservatism Low‑importance

	Conservatism portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Conservatism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of conservatism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ConservatismWikipedia:WikiProject ConservatismTemplate:WikiProject ConservatismConservatism articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Politics: American Low‑importance

	Politics portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by American politics task force (assessed as Low-importance).

LGBTQ+ studies

This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBTQ-related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.LGBTQ+ studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesLGBTQ+ studies articles

Gender studies Low‑importance

This article is part of WikiProject Gender studies. This WikiProject aims to improve the quality of articles dealing with gender studies and to remove systematic gender bias from Wikipedia. If you would like to participate in the project, you can choose to edit this article, or visit the project page for more information.Gender studiesWikipedia:WikiProject Gender studiesTemplate:WikiProject Gender studiesGender studies articles

Low

This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

To-do list:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Assess : see Unassessed Gender studies articles and Unknown-importance Gender studies articles
Cleanup : edit to see
Collaborate : see /Collaboration
Copyedit : edit to see
Deletion sorting : see /Sexuality and gender
Expand : edit to see
Infobox : see Gender studies articles needing infoboxes
Merge : edit to see
Notability : edit to see
NPOV : edit to see
Orphans : Brannon Masculinity Scale · Holy Virility · Media and gender · Michael Kaufman (author) · Women's education in Saudi Arabia
Photo : see Wikipedia requested photographs of gender studies
Split : History of feminism
Stubs : see Gender studies stubs
Translate : see /translation
Update : edit to see
Verify : Riot grrrl
Needs attention : see Gender studies articles needing attention

TikTok

This article is within the scope of WikiProject TikTok, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of TikTok on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TikTokWikipedia:WikiProject TikTokTemplate:WikiProject TikTokTikTok articles

Oklahoma Low‑importance

	Oklahoma portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Oklahoma, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of Oklahoma on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.OklahomaWikipedia:WikiProject OklahomaTemplate:WikiProject OklahomaOklahoma articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Discrimination Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Discrimination on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DiscriminationWikipedia:WikiProject DiscriminationTemplate:WikiProject DiscriminationDiscrimination articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.

Media mentions, page views, and other notices

This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations:

D'Anne Witkowski (September 14, 2022). "Creep of the Week: Libs of TikTok". Out in Jersey. Retrieved September 17, 2022. Now, if you're old like me, you might be wondering why an account called Libs of TikTok is on Twitter and not, say, only TikTok. All I can tell you is that the world is a multifaceted digital hellscape. Wikipedia explains it better: "Libs of TikTok is a far-right Twitter account owned by former real estate worker Chaya Raichik. The account reposts content created by liberals, leftists, and LGBT people on TikTok and on other social media platforms, often with hostile, derogatory, or mocking commentary."
David Israel (September 5, 2023). "When Did ADL Start Hunting Down Jews?". The Jewish Press. Retrieved June 19, 2024. By the way, the Libs of TikTok Wikipedia page has been raided by anti-Raichik editors who made the anarchist demonstrations on Kaplan Street look like a birthday party. It is possibly the most vicious Wiki edit job I have seen.

Wiki Loves Pride

This article was created or improved during Wiki Loves Pride, 2022.Wiki Loves PrideWikipedia:Wiki Loves PrideTemplate:Wiki Loves Pride talkWiki Loves Pride articles

Content

Recent events, specifically on February 7th, have brought attention to bomb threats. However, there have been additional incidents, primarily targeting Planet Fitness—linked to Libs of TikTok—across 38 locations. These threats are related to the gym chain’s locker-room policies for transgender individuals, and now the FBI is actively involved.^[1]--Rock & roll is not dead (talk) 02:00, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Vague

The statement about individuals linking her to a person seen to be involved with the Jan 6 attack is vague and awkwardly placed. Although it wouldn't surprise anyone concerned if it were true, it's just speculation. Mind that I am NOT point to this in an effort to defend someone like CR or LOTT. Fuck noooo. 2A00:23C4:3E44:2C01:F922:E57E:7E65:5835 (talk) 16:33, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Grammatical error in paragraph 2

"...several of which having received bomb threats after being featured on a post."

Should be "have received bomb threats."

I can't change it myself as the article is understandably locked for editing. Darth Watto (talk) 16:57, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you; this was a bit clumsy. Instead of changing the verb, however, I removed "having" altogether. I think that works, but do let me know if you disagree. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 17:03, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sources #17 and #18 are misleading: They do not provide truthful examples of this account spreading 'false claims'.

This obviously is never going anywhere; user’s only other edits are WP:IDHT-type activity at another culture war page and the complaint here is baseless Dronebogus (talk) 13:06, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sources #17 and #18 report that libsoftiktok made a false claim about the Center for Gender Surgery at Boston Children's Hospital. The tweet in question is:

“Boston Children’s Hospital is now offering ‘gender-affirming hysterectomies’ for young girls.”

Whether or not this is a false claim can easily be verified via the Wayback Machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20220818232821/https://www.childrenshospital.org/programs/center-gender-surgery-program

"The Center for Gender Surgery at Boston Children's Hospital offers gender affirmation surgery services to eligible adolescents and young adults"

So what exactly about the original tweet is false or 'misinformation'? Source #17 even acknowledges this within the article, stating:

"The separate Center for Gender Surgery strictly provides treatments to “eligible adolescents and young adults“."

It doesn't even disprove the claim made in the tweet, in-fact it makes the same claim within the article. If anything, source #17 is more misleading than the tweet in question. The article doesn't address how the claim is 'false' but makes the claim that it is false. The claim itself is not false, it is a verifiable fact.

Source #18 is an article regarding the same tweet. It makes a similar unsubstantiated claim that it is 'misinformation'. CodingApe (talk) 05:13, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source #16 also states that the tweet is false:

"Raichik falsely claimed on Aug. 11 that Boston Children’s Hospital performs hysterectomies on children"

Unless I am missing something, this appears to be the only example of libsoftiktok spreading misinformation provided in the article. Given that tweet is not misinformation, and considering this source was used to back-up the claim on Wikipedia that this account 'spread false claims', I believe it should likely be removed as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CodingApe (talk • contribs) 05:33, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OR does not trump reliable sources, but in any case let’s look at your argument in detail: YMMV on what “young girls” refers to but “eligible adolescents” could mean people in their late teens, old enough to drive and sexually consent in many jurisdictions. The fact that it’s a children’s hospital, differentiating “adolescents and young adults”, makes the claim that they’re offering gender-affirmation surgery to young children dubious. So not only does your claim not cite a valid source, it also simply makes no logical sense. Dronebogus (talk) 10:07, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The World Health Organization definition officially designates an adolescent as someone between the ages of 10 and 19. Is a 13 year old female not a 'young girl'?

Regardless, the 'eligible adolescents' verbiage isn't the only verbiage they used to indicate they were offering these surgeries to minors. Here are other excerpts:

"As the first pediatric center in the country dedicated to the surgical care of transgender patients"

"Our skilled team includes specialists in plastic surgery, urology, endocrinology, nursing, gender management, and social work, who collaborate to provide a full suite of surgical options for transgender teens and young adults."

"We follow the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) guidelines to surgically treat people who are stable in their gender identity and have documentation of persistent gender dysphoria."

Let's look at what the WPATH guidelines are, specifically regarding surgical care for adolescents: https://www.wpath.org/media/cms/Documents/SOC%20v8/SOC8%20Chapters%20for%20Public%20Comment/SOC8%20Chapter%20Draft%20for%20Public%20Comment%20-%20Adolescent.pdf

"17 and above for metoidioplasty, orchidectomy, vaginoplasty, and hysterectomy and fronto-orbital remodeling as part of gender affirming treatment unless there are significant, compelling reasons to take an individualized approach, considering the factors unique to the adolescent treatment frame."

This directly aligns with the verbiage they used, 'eligible adolescents'.

If libsoftiktok merely tweeted the information that the Children's Hospital had available on their website, were they intentionally spreading misinformation? Were they spreading misinformation at all? The answer to both of those questions is obviously no. CodingApe (talk) 16:29, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sources #16, #17 and #18 are misleading

Following up on this as I came across an active PDF that utilizes the same 'eligible adolescents' verbiage: https://www.childrenshospital.org/sites/default/files/media_migration/f9a94dd5-cba9-4a58-b355-b012cb6e4e13.pdf

User Dronebogus is clearly misusing the hat template in their closure of my previous thread by attempting to win the argument and simultaneously attack my character. Not only that, but they also make several false claims.

Dronebogus states that "WP:OR does not trump reliable sources"; however, I am not asking for any information to be included in this article. I am asking for misleading sources and information to be excluded. Wikipedia encourages editors to review sources in WP:RS: "Whether a specific news story is reliable for a fact or statement should be examined on a case-by-case basis"

They also altered libsoftiktok's tweet in their original response to me: "makes the claim that they’re offering gender-affirmation surgery to young children dubious." libsoftiktok never made the claim that they're offering these services to children. They stated "young girls", which means adolescents or younger.

Dronebogus, if my claims are 'baseless', why haven't you examined them? All you've responded to me with is your own personal opinion on what a 'young girl' is. Whether or not these girls can "drive and sexually consent" is completely irrelevant, it has nothing to do with whether or not the tweet libsoftiktok made was misinformation. CodingApe (talk) 06:35, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

^ Tryens-Fernandes, Savannah (6 April 2024). "Alabama Planet Fitness locations receive bomb threats, evacuated by FBI". The Birmingham News. USA. Retrieved 10 April 2024.

[1] Tryens-Fernandes, Savannah (6 April 2024). "Alabama Planet Fitness locations receive bomb threats, evacuated by FBI". The Birmingham News. USA. Retrieved 10 April 2024.

[1]

@@ Line 98: / Line 98: @@
 ::If libsoftiktok merely tweeted the information that the Children's Hospital had available on their website, were they intentionally spreading misinformation? Were they spreading misinformation at all? The answer to both of those questions is obviously no. [[User:CodingApe|CodingApe]] ([[User talk:CodingApe|talk]]) 16:29, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
 {{cob}}
+== Sources #16, #17 and #18 are misleading ==
+Following up on this as I came across an active PDF that utilizes the same 'eligible adolescents' verbiage: https://www.childrenshospital.org/sites/default/files/media_migration/f9a94dd5-cba9-4a58-b355-b012cb6e4e13.pdf
+User Dronebogus is clearly misusing the hat template in their closure of my previous thread by attempting to win the argument and simultaneously attack my character. Not only that, but they also make several false claims.
+Dronebogus states that "WP:OR does not trump reliable sources"; however, '''I am not asking for any information to be included in this article.''' I am asking for misleading sources and information to be excluded. Wikipedia encourages editors to review sources in WP:RS: "Whether a specific news story is reliable for a fact or statement should be examined on a case-by-case basis"
+They also altered libsoftiktok's tweet in their original response to me: "makes the claim that they’re offering gender-affirmation surgery to young children dubious." libsoftiktok never made the claim that they're offering these services to children. They stated "young girls", which means adolescents or younger.
+Dronebogus, if my claims are 'baseless', why haven't you examined them? All you've responded to me with is your own personal opinion on what a 'young girl' is. Whether or not these girls can "drive and sexually consent" is completely irrelevant, it has nothing to do with whether or not the tweet libsoftiktok made was misinformation. [[User:CodingApe|CodingApe]] ([[User talk:CodingApe|talk]]) 06:35, 2 August 2024 (UTC)