User talk:Tiddlywinks/Archive 1

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♫Green ♫ギャラドス♫Talk♫ 03:42, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

VIZ Media

Hi there! Thank you for your much-needed help on the revamp of the Pokémon Tales books. In the future, please remember to type VIZ Media as such and not as "Viz Media" as the caps is our preferred spelling method. Thank you! --ZestyCactus 19:59, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Roger. Tiddlywinks (talk) 20:09, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

translation stuff

Do you know the translation for the words, 南海カント and フギ? As for the former, 南 in this case has なん and 海 has カい. Patty Man 05:57, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

I was able to get フギ down actually. Do you know まえをピ's translation? Patty Man 03:02, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

I was trying to look those up myself to be sure, but other things I've been trying to do today have conspired against my success in that matter. I did figure out quickly enough that the name (フギ) is actually Nagi (ナギ). The 南海カント I'm not real sure about and haven't found just yet, but if you could just tell me where it is, I shouldn't have too much trouble with it. Likewise for まえをピ. Context can help a lot (especially if what you give me might actually be incomplete or something =P ). I've got the manga*, so just tell me the chapter and/or page.

Hope you've had a merry Christmas, or day off or whatever. ^^ Tiddlywinks (talk) 03:16, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

南海カント was in Pokémon Battrio manga and まえをピ was in PPM. But still, good thing you have Gotta Catch 'Em All, there are some more characters that need their names uncovered. I too wish you Happy Holidays and early new year. Patty Man 03:26, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Well then, 南海カント is just a guy's name in Battrio, not really needing a coherent translation. It's Nankai Kanto. The last name (Nankai) means "South/ern Sea" and the first name is surely a pun on Kanto (the land is actually spelled with a long 'o': ō; Nankai's first name is not)). I don't remember if I actually have Anakubo's manga, or how much...is まえをピ in the first series, or one of the later ones (Gen 3+)? And what volume? Maybe I can find it...because まえをピ all by itself has no sense. Tiddlywinks (talk) 04:01, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

I got まえをピ in chapter 39, volume 6. It is located next to 名 (which is name) in the line he is introducing himself. Patty Man 04:31, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Pippi ends his lines with ピ, so that part's entirely empty of any significance. まえ is not a separate word from 名, it's just a case of "spelling" out one part of a word rather than using a mildly complicated kanji (in a kids' manga). Pippi's whole line just means, "How do you know our names?" Tiddlywinks (talk) 16:44, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Vivillon locations page

I've a few names of Korean locations from my game that I can confirm for your Vivillon page. Would you rather me put them on the talk page or edit it myself? Glik (talk) 04:14, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

You can go ahead and edit those. Tiddlywinks (talk) 04:19, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

hey tiddlywinks, i have posted message in the respective talk page in case you have missed -Mew Jadester ^-tp- 13:33, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Props

For the record, those are the official names the games use for those items, so they are not an example of your reasoning against Ariel's. Luna Tiger * the Arc Toraph 19:09, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm well aware they're official. But the points were not related, not for me anyway.

I held up props to counter the statement "Listing Japanese names is common", not "Listing Japanese names is common when there are no official names". My point was that there are lots of props, yet nowhere are their Japanese names listed; if it were so common, they should be, but since they're not, I really don't think they're needed for the natural objects.

Further, if the natural objects don't have official names, I don't know any strong argument that the unofficial Japanese names are necessarily worth listing at all. Tiddlywinks (talk) 19:21, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Those Japanese names for the natural objects are the official Japanese names from the official Japanese guide book. I helped SnorlaxMonster compile the information for that page, and bluesun provided SnorlaxMonster the names from the guidebook. Lady Ariel 19:35, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Without seeing them for myself, I'll have to doubt that they're official "names". They might be what was officially written to describe them, but they don't look terribly like "names". (Even if they're perhaps labeled as "names" in the book, I'd still consider them dumb "names", or "name" a bad "name"...)

In any case, "official" or not, I still do not admit that they're worth enough to include, especially not in the table like that where they're just annoying clutter. I could make it look better, or they could be thrown in elsewhere perhaps...but for now I'm sticking with: "they're not worth including". That is what I believe. Tiddlywinks (talk) 19:45, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

By the way, if it helps the column listing them was just headed '自然物', with nothing to say 'these are explicitly names' or 'these are explicitly descriptions'. On reflection, they certainly do seem to be just ordinary descriptions... Bluesun (talk) 17:33, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Move translations

Whenever you change a translation of a specific move, you must make sure that all the cards using that specific translation are also changed to reflect the new translation. Consistency within the wiki is important because if we don't have consistency, we begin to look sloppy. The card page has since been modified, but please keep this in mind if you change any additional move translations. ^Maverick _Nate 02:59, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Oh. That absolutely never occurred to me... I'll remember it, then. Tiddlywinks (talk) 09:25, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

"True Double Battle" term

(For the Multi Battle page): I understand that official terms are more relevant, but fan terms merit mention as well (as the Happiness and Forces of Nature (Kami trio) articles currently show in their introductory paragraphs, as well as "Shiny Pokémon" (when "alternate coloration" was more or less the official term) prior to "Shiny Pokemon" receiving official usage, not to mention the whole issue with mentioning "effort values" as a fan term for "base stats" (a term which has received a different official use). As for my usage of the term "occasional", I'm not sure of how much usage of a term designates it as a 'popular' term for general Bulbapedia standards (with the Bulbapedia Manual of Style mentioning that "alternate" and "popular" names can also be used)... Essentially, I've seen the term "True Double Battle" (when referring to Multi Battles) as much as I've seen "Cloud Trio" used to refer the Kami Trio - as in, not much (although "Cloud Trio" still manages to receive a mention on the "Forces of Nature" page despite how little I've seen it used). If Google searching counts for anything, "True Double Battle" has still received some usage on some FAQs, forums, and websites themed around Pokémon. A general search for "Cloud trio" yields a lot of non-Pokémon results, and specifying in regards to Pokémon doesn't bring up as much as other "Forces of Nature"-related fan terms, from how I see it... Fenyx4 (talk) 04:43, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Fan terms may be useful where the official term has been fuzzy (this is most true for effort values/bast stats, of the things you mentioned). I'm not sure Tag/Multi Battle was always clear, but on the other hand, "True Double Battle" is hardly very clear either. In any case, if you really want to press it, you'd do better to ask a staff member of some stripe. All I actually did was say (and act on) what I personally felt. (I didn't feel the comment was integrated very well, either.) A staff member may reveal that you have the right of it better than I. Tiddlywinks (talk) 06:05, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Aerial Ace

Do you know if ツバメ返しだ translates to Aerial Ace's Japanese name because when I looked it up, it kept on showing me this --> つばめがえし. Not sure if they are the same or if it was true so leaving it to you to decide as Japanese isn't my forte. Patty Man 04:17, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

The だ at the end of your line is extraneous, but yeah, ツバメ返し is entirely equivalent to つばめがえし; it is indeed Aerial Ace (or should be). Tiddlywinks (talk) 04:30, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Pokemon Crystal mistakes

Hi! I noticed you undid the "Mistakes" sections that I added to Pokémon Crystal. Can you work out with me where to put those things then? (Because they deserve to be noted.) --Dr. James (tell me) 20:35, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

You can probably add the first one back so long as you just avoid linking to an off-site image. That means either uploading it to the archives or maybe using this: ・・・ (code: ・・・; it's a bit of a hack, but at least it looks about right...though I wish I knew how to make it look like it looks between the code tags). The other thing looks like it'd be better as Trivia for the Burned Tower, since it's not really about Crystal in general. Tiddlywinks (talk) 21:00, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, I've done exactly that. --Dr. James (tell me) 22:25, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Moves

I compiled a list of moves on my userpage incase you are interested. Patty Man 04:05, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't generally concern myself about that particular flavor of minutiae, so I won't be adding to the list if that's what you meant. If you were looking for confirmation of anything like in previous instances, I don't see anything that apparently needs it... Tiddlywinks (talk) 06:39, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Could you spellcheck this Chart please?

So I noticed you have so pretty good chart programming skills it seems. I am not too good with code, so I was wondering if you could give this chart a look over to see if I did it correctly?

	Second Berry

F i r s t B e r r y	4	8	16	16	16	12	12	12	16	16
	8	4	16	16	16	12	12	12	16	16
	16	16	12	32	32	32	32	32	32	32
	16	16	32	12	32	32	32	32	32	32
	16	16	32	32	12	32	32	32	32	32
	12	12	32	32	32	8	16	16	32	32
	12	12	32	32	32	16	8	16	32	32
	12	12	32	32	32	16	16	8	32	32
	16	16	32	32	32	32	32	32	12	32
	16	16	32	32	32	32	32	32	32	12

Its a chart showing the out come of two red berried when mixed at the Juice Shoppe in Lumiose City. I more or less used the type-match up chart as a template...so I am not sure if I could or should have done something to make it better.

My hope is to make charts for each color berryYamitora1 (talk) 02:36, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

I made some changes directly to the chart (you can see them in the diff). Mostly just to cut down on needless repitition. But I think you might want to put links on the images, so people can click them to see how they can get them. Just look at Cheri and copy that form to the others. I do wish there was a bit of a better option, but from looking at that table, I can't figure out anything...more concise, I guess. And if that's the case, then yeah, it looks pretty nice.

I would kind of hope that different colors would fall into the same pattern and you wouldn't really need a table for each color... Tiddlywinks (talk) 04:08, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you so much, yeah that would be nice for me too but I fear that can't happen due to the complexity of it. I tried making a large table with all 50+ berries and it was too much of a monster.

All these berries and their match-ups are pretty much based on their line up within the bag sorted by berry type. So if the other color berries do fall into the same pattern, that will help some.

By the way, what do you think about assigning each value its own shade, with the higher values being darker in shade? Yamitora1 (talk) 05:49, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

That might be nice if there was one particular special value, or if the berries didn't already have a red background, or if it was a very clear and steady pattern, but in this case I don't think it'd work out all that well. Tiddlywinks (talk) 12:34, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't there there is a pattern really, just when you think one is emerging, it sinks.

	Second Berry

F i r s t B e r r y	4	16	12	12	12	16
	16	12	32	32	32	32
	12	32	8	16	16	32
	12	32	16	8	16	32
	12	32	16	16	8	32
	16	32	32	32	32	12

Here is the purple berry version, again it follows the layout of how the berries show up in the bag sorted by type.

the uneven number of each type of berry is also going cause problems. There are 10 red berries to mix, and only 6 Purple berries. There is also 7 blue berries, 10 green berries, 5 pink berries and 10 yellow berries. It's going be hard to show the info in a even flowing way.

The best way I can think of doing it is having all the berries with 10 berries in their group in one column and all the berries with 5-7 berries in their group in the second column.

Something like...

10-7

10-6

10-5

(Red)(Blue)

(Green)(Purple)

(Yellow)(Pink)

or something to that nature at least. Yamitora1 (talk) 06:31, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

There is a pattern. From the data so far (mixing Berries of the same color), it comes out like this...

Groups			Mixing results
Group 1	Group 2	Group 3	Same color	Different colors
			Red Juice	Lansat+Starf: Rare Soda Kee+Maranga: Perilous Soup other: Colorful Shake
			Purple Juice
			Pink Juice
			Green Juice
			Yellow Juice
			Blue Juice

Mixing two of the same Berry (<Color> Juice, EVs)
	+EVs
Group 1	4
Group 2	8
Group 3	12

Mixing different Berries of the **same** color (<Color> Juice, EVs)
	Group 1	Group 2	Group 3
Group 1	8	16	12
Group 2	16	16	32
Group 3	12	32	32

Mixing two different-colored Berries (Colorful Shake, happiness)
	Group 1	Group 2	Group 3
Group 1	really	really	extremely
Group 2	really	extremely	extremely
Group 3	extremely	extremely	extremely

I also fixed this up as a way to show it in one table, which might be especially useful if those groups don't hold up so well when colors start getting mixed (i.e., if mixing, for example, Cheri and Chesto gets a different result than mixing Leppa and Chesto). If that happens, then you could just create a second table with different groups in it (or tables, or whatever you need).

	Second Berry






F i r s t B e r r y	Same Berry: 4 Same color: 8 Different colors: really	Same color: 12 Different colors: really	Same color: 16 Different colors: extremely
	Same color: 12 Different colors: really	Same Berry: 8 Same color: 16 Different colors: extremely	Same color: 32 Different colors: extremely
	Same color: 16 Different colors: extremely	Same color: 32 Different colors: extremely	Same Berry: 12 Same color: 32 Different colors: extremely

The first way is a little simpler to edit (since you're only putting the Berries in one place), but the second way makes it harder for people to look at the wrong table. I'd probably have to favor the latter a little bit. Tiddlywinks (talk) 14:23, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Well it looks like that chart would have worked, but the Pink berries look like they might throw a wrench in those clock works.

	Second Berry

F i r s t B e r r y	4	12	16	16	16
	12	8	32	32	32
	16	32	12	32	32
	16	32	32	12	32
	16	32	32	32	12

In a way, the Pecha Berry is the pink counterpart to the Cheri and Chesto berry, making it part of group 1, but it also has group 2 characteristics if I am reading this correctly.

I'll have the data for the blue berries soon, and then I will take on the Yellow and Green berries and we'll have all the data. My biggest fear is the different colors data, that's going take days to get done. I mixed every berry with the Roseli Berry one day, took over a hour to do so, and with there being 50 berries, that comes out to at least 55 min man hours of testing and soft resetting. @n@

But hopefully once we have all the berry data, at least for same color berries, we will have a better idea of how to present the data. Yamitora1 (talk) 00:16, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

I added the pink Berries above. They fit fine. Which version were you trying to read that you thought it wouldn't fit?

Technically, every Berry you do means you don't have to mix that Berry again, so you should only need roughly half that time. And the bare minimum would probably be something like, check one Berry from each combination of group+color against another Berry from another of those combinations, so that'd be even less. Picking out a few Berries to search completely (again, minus pairs already mixed, like Roseli) would increase confidence in the overall pattern if they fit the pattern wholly.

Do you still have that full Roselia data, though? It'd be nice to be able to look at that and see if it'll fit easily into the current pattern or if there's something a bit more complex underlying these groups (or if it's altogether different). Tiddlywinks (talk) 00:42, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

	Second Berry

F i r s t B e r r y	4	16	12	12	12	16	16
	16	12	32	32	32	32	32
	12	32	8	16	16	32	32
	12	32	16	8	16	32	32
	12	32	16	16	8	32	32
	16	32	32	32	32	12	32
	16	32	32	32	32	32	12

I guess I just am not good with charts. But yeah, come to think of it I will not have to do as much work in the end after all..also I recorded no data for the Roseli berry...I was trying to get Ultra Rare Soda. A guide lists it as a ingredient for Ultra Rare Soda. My guess is its a berry not yet released. So with that said, I will have to once again mix it with every berry, minus the pink berries to see the effect. lol luckly I will only have to mix every color of berry minus itself up until I get to green. It'll probably take only a few hours if that.

Anyways, there's the blue berry data. I will tackle Green here shortly (taking a bit of a break) and then work on Yellow likely sometime tomorrow. Yamitora1 (talk) 01:33, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

there are 6 color of berries, what if we make the chart where 3 colors are on the top and left, and 3 on the bottom and right. Also, I am testing Colorful shakes, it seems there are only two effects, really happy, and extremely happy.

	Second Berry

F i r s t B e r r y	really happy now!	really happy now!	extremely happy now!	extremely happy now!	extremely happy now!
	extremely happy now!	extremely happy now!	extremely happy now!	extremely happy now!	extremely happy now!
	really happy now!	extremely happy now!	extremely happy now!	extremely happy now!	extremely happy now!
	really happy now!	extremely happy now!	extremely happy now!	extremely happy now!	extremely happy now!
	really happy now!	extremely happy now!	extremely happy now!	extremely happy now!	extremely happy now!
	extremely happy now!	extremely happy now!	extremely happy now!	extremely happy now!	extremely happy now!

its not complete, but so far that's the gist of what I am coming up with, not sure if its enough to fill in the chart. Yamitora1 (talk) 02:59, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

I might be wrong, but I think the Gen IV flavor levels might be a way to indicate a berries power when mixed with another berry. anyways, working on green berries now Yamitora1 (talk) 06:41, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

	Second Berry

F i r s t B e r r y	4	12	16	16	12	12	12	12	16	16
	12	8	32	32	16	16	16	16	32	32
	16	32	12	32	32	32	32	32	32	32
	16	32	32	12	32	32	32	32	32	32
	12	16	32	32	8	16	16	16	32	32
	12	16	32	32	16	8	16	16	32	32
	12	16	32	32	16	16	8	16	32	32
	12	16	32	32	16	16	16	8	32	32
	16	32	32	32	32	32	32	32	12	32
	16	32	32	32	32	32	32	32	32	12

	Second Berry

F i r s t B e r r y	4
		8
			12
				12
					12
						8
							8
								8
									8
										12

Here is the chart for the green berries, and the start of the yellow chart. I am not sure, but from what I can tell from your chart, I don't need to complete the yellow chart, just mix the same berry for each yellow berry to find out which group it would be in...am I correct? Yamitora1 (talk) 11:27, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

You're right, the result of mixing a Berry with itself should give you its group. I added the new colors and the Colorful data to both sets of charts. (I switched Groups 2 and 3 as that shows a steady increase.) The Colorful Shake appears to fall into the pattern, so it would just be nice now to get confirmation on each remaining unique Group/Color combination (e.g., you don't need to worry about mixing both Cheri and Leppa with other Berries, just check one of them).

Putting three of the colors on the top of the second chart and three on the bottom looks rather neat, but unfortunately it also seems to imply that you can mix something from the left with something from the right (or from the top with the bottom). In any case, I didn't realize how different the Colorful Shake (increasing happiness) was from the <Color> Juices (increasing EVs), so considering that, I'm now partial to using separate charts like in the first set, rather than mixing such different information in the same chart. I also expanded the groups table so that I think it'll make it easier to keep track of what you're trying to mix.

I'm thinking that when we can (mostly?) confirm the Colorful Shake results, it'll be better to just put the Juice Shoppe on its own page. Tiddlywinks (talk) 14:09, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Oh yeah...I'm not sure what Gen IV flavors you're referring to, but I don't see any reliable pattern in the red Berries. Tiddlywinks (talk) 14:15, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

After several trials with different color/group berries using the chart as a map, I've found that the colorful shake level is correct. Follow the chart, and it will result in the same Colorful Shake level as seen in the chart.

As for difference in Colorful Shake level, that unfortunately can not be measured unless you buy from the man. I did a soft reset, he had colorful shake for 2,400 and then a other soft reset he had one for 4,500 both made the drinker "extremely happy now!" so if a person is tracking happiness growth, mixing your own berries isn't the best way to do so.

Also, I think the green berries should be next to the red berries, and blue berries after the green berries, RGB.

On the Gen IV flavor thing, I guess I was so tired I was seeing patterns not there...so ignore it lol. Yamitora1 (talk) 20:37, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Rather than some arbitrary order, I prefer a reason I can point to, like the order that the colors appear in a list of Berries. So I actually shifted the Blue Berries to the end.

I think maybe it's time for me to finish a Gen VI game so I can finish off the friendship chart (and verify the proper values for the checker), including the Juice Shop stuff. Tiddlywinks (talk) 21:04, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

if you have a few days you can beat, these games were rather sort.

		Second Berry

F i r s t B e r r y		Same Berry: 4 Same color: 8 Different colors: really	Same color: 12 Different colors: really	Same color: 16 Different colors: extremely
		Same color: 12 Different colors: really	Same Berry: 8 Same color: 16 Different colors: extremely	Same color: 32 Different colors: extremely
		Same color: 16 Different colors: extremely	Same color: 32 Different colors: extremely	Same Berry: 12 Same color: 32 Different colors: extremely
	Exact Colorful Shake levels cannot be determined by mixing berries.

Also, what do you think about this chart?Yamitora1 (talk) 22:03, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

It looks pretty nice. I guess explicitly grouping the colors isn't strictly necessary, really.

Once I've got friendship values for the different Colorful mixes, I'll play with that and see if I still prefer a version that splits the charts that apply to different stuff. (Of course, the dirty secret is, <Color> Juices are also supposed to increase happiness if the Pokemon has max EVs already. In short, it could get interesting, once I've got all the data...) Tiddlywinks (talk) 22:16, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

I kind of do like the color seperation myself, I just wish there was a way to fill in that horrible negative space in the corner.

Also you are correct, max EV Pokémon do become happier with colored juices. In fact, I just mixed two Cheri berries and the result was "happy now" not really happy in fact, that seems to be the result for all the colored juices, even the group 3 berries so its possible all same colored juices result in the lowest level of happiness while mix results in higher. I know I'm happier with mix juice compared to juice from one fruit or (especially) vegetables lol.Yamitora1 (talk) 23:05, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

How does this chart look?

Berry Groups			Mixing Results
1	2	3	Beverage	Effect
			Red Juice	Increases Attack EV by 4-32
			Purple Juice	Increases HP EV by 4-32
			Pink Juice	Increases Speed EV by 4-32
			Green Juice	Increases Sp.Def EV by 4-32
			Yellow Juice	Increases Defense EV by 4-32
			Blue Juice	Increases Sp.Atk EV by 4-32
Special Berry Mixes		+	Rare Soda	Increases level by 3
Special Berry Mixes		+	Perilous Soup	Resets all EVs to 0
Same Color Mixes		1	2	3
1		4-8	16	12
2		16	8-16	32
3		12	32	12-32

I modified your first chart some, and input info from the other charts. Out of all the charts, I think this this relays the most info in the best organized way. Until we know the ins and outs of the Colorful Shake, I think we should leave it off the chart for the time being, or put it into its own chart. also, I'm not sure but I think the chart is messing with the text-orientation on here. Did I fail to close a code? Yamitora1 (talk) 16:27, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I definitely like the other gray color you added. If I use this form, I'll probably use those colors. But the "Same Color Mixes" part is very tacked on; it doesn't actually fit well like that. Part of me is also wondering what the best way/place to list the effects actually is. I'm not sure it's as part of the Berry groups/mixing chart since that's not the only way they're obtainable.

Yeah, you didn't close the bigger table that that first chart (and its companions) was actually in, and whose beginning you copied; I removed it. You can see that table explicitly if you replace style="margin:auto" above with style="margin:auto" border=1 and preview that on this page. Tiddlywinks (talk) 16:55, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I guess there is no sin in having multiple charts/menus to display vast amounts of info.

Berry Groups
1	2	3

These two charts are simple, but still rely a lot of info. Plus, regardless of what they can cover, the body of the article will usually have the same info no matter what. As long as we explain in the body of the article how groups are decided, how they work and other things, we won't need charts for everything, they'll just be the icing on the cake lol.

	Group 1	Group 2	Group 3
Group 1	4-8	16	12
Group 2	16	8-16	32
Group 3	12	32	12-32

The Juice Shoppe section already pretty much covers what happens when you mix two berries and that you can buy the juices, so all we really have to focus on is educating people on berry groups and how to best maximize their homemade berry mixes to get the most out of their Juice Shoppe visits.

I am also wondering if and how much of this info should also be represented on the main berry article itself.

Also thanks, I love that steel color too, it really helps color up the table some, but keeps it within a color scheme if that makes sense lol.Yamitora1 (talk) 03:48, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Character Encodings

Very nicely done with Character encoding in Generation III. I'm quite pleased to see someone else working on hacking the game, as I myself kinda ran away from the text stuff once I encountered multi-byte characters. (-: For what it's worth, I'm fully in favor of splitting out the gen 1 and 2 articles provided there's enough content to support them. --GuyPerfect (talk) 23:41, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I hope I can keep at it, as my attention tends to split (and there's already several prominent things I want to work on). Tiddlywinks (talk) 00:01, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Technical issues with your talk page

I've noticed that on your talk page, the section header above this one is slightly further to the right than normal. I'm not sure exactly what's causing it (I tried previewing with |}, , and </div>, but none of them did anything). I suggest you take a look at the tables above, because one of them hasn't closed something, and since I assume you intend to put them in the mainspace somewhere, you're going to need to fix whatever that problem is first (I don't have time to go through them all, but I understand that you're already familiar with them). --SnorlaxMonster 07:08, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, that would be my fault most likely. I am a novice at coding and only barely made those tables with what tech common sense I have. Yamitora1 (talk) 08:04, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

The problem was apparently a colon I used to try to indent a table above. For some reason, that produced the effect you saw; it "froze" the indent, which looks like a bug to me. Tiddlywinks (talk) 13:31, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Lucario in Pokémon-Amie sulking?

not sure if you've encountered this, but I found my Lucario facing sideways, he kind of looked like he was sulking. He got ko's but I revived him, so i am wondering if the two are related. I thought I would report this to you since you were working on the mon-amie page and mechanics. Yamitora1 (talk) 20:48, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

I'll try to keep it in mind, but I may not bother looking into an outlier like that just in favor of pursuing a number of other, more solid projects. I figure if there's anything there, I can leave it to someone down the line. Tiddlywinks (talk) 22:26, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

...On the other hand, I just happened to open Pokemon-Amie with Lucario and it was doing just that, standing sideways, and I had to tap to get its attention. I've done nothing but coddle it, and it's a sort of behavior I've seen with other Pokemon for random reasons (which is to say, trivial and uncertain ones), so...perhaps it could have happened because of the KOs, but even if so, it can definitely happen for other reasons as well. Tiddlywinks (talk) 05:03, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Oh I see, well it would have been awesome/cute if Pokémon could sulk after a defeat. Regardless I feed and played with him to make him feel better so all is good in the end. Yamitora1 (talk) 23:19, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Recurring Items split

We'd like to see a finalized page for List of recurring items before any split were to happen. You mentioned having the code for the page already ready, so if you could create a userspace preparation page for it, it coud really speed the process along. ^Maverick _Nate 05:00, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I actually qualified that claim, but I do have some code... Well, for your edification, this is as far as I got some time ago. In several respects it's still quite a work in progress. For one particular, after seeing it again, I currently intend to strip the Berry names (text) from the RSE table of Berries and use the Bag3 template.

Of everything I suggested for splitting, this is probably the one I can most immediately get to a complete (as possible) state. Perhaps I'll set other things aside for a bit to try and do that, then... Tiddlywinks (talk) 05:25, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Generation I balancing issues

Sorry, I just was upset at having an edit conflict, and didn't notice what you did until after I saved. Pikachu Bros. (talk) 16:07, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Rain on Route 12

Can you tell me what day you saw rain on Route 12? As far as I know, it doesn't rain at all during the winter season in Unova games. And please make sure it wasn't a Tornadus summoned thunderstorm, as you were playing on Black. Jdthebud (talk) 20:00, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I put the date/time in the page. I already caught all the legendaries some time ago. Tiddlywinks (talk) 20:05, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, good to know it was actual rain, and that it was March 28. I was a little confused because when you made the edit you said "today", which was April 28 and winter. I will investigate further on B2W2 as well. Jdthebud (talk) 22:50, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I actually have two DS's and I once set one of them back a month. So, interestingly, today, on the real-time one (April 28, "winter"), I actually am seeing rain on Route 12. Tiddlywinks (talk) 23:50, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Did you reset the route? If you are outside when you save the game, the state will be the same whenever you turn it back on, but it should reset when you leave the route and return. I confirmed rain on Route 12 on March 28 in both BW and B2W2, but not April 28 (no weather today). Jdthebud (talk) 01:57, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

It's 21:03, April 28, in Pokemon White, and it's raining on Route 12 which I just biked into after flying to Lacunosa immediately after loading the game. Tiddlywinks (talk) 02:10, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Awesome, you're right. BW has rain, but not B2W2 it seems. Route 12 (and maybe some others in the north end) seems to be one of the few (if not the only) common places that has weather differences between the two Gen V paired games. This is a lot more complicated than I thought it was. Nice catch, and thanks for clarifying. Jdthebud (talk)

Scratch that, B2W2 has rain on Route 12 today. Don't know why it didn't appear earlier, although it's likely I simply messed up with reloading the route/season. Sigh. Jdthebud (talk) 02:27, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Berry fields

I'm not going to revert you again because that would be edit warring, but if you start a discussion about a point, please actually wait a reasonable amount of time for a response instead of just doing it your way anyway. I know you're impatient, but please don't just assume that no response in a day or two equals an implicit approval. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 03:03, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't at all consider it "approval". It's nothing more than as you say: I'm impatient. As a matter of fact, I waited three days (more like, I just realized that three days had passed), and I think that's adequate time for someone to at least give a courtesy acknowledgement. Lacking that much, I can't help but think I can only rely on my own devices, and I consider Wikipedia a fair model to follow. If there's continued disagreement about the matter, maybe others will contribute to the discussion and bring it more attention. Tiddlywinks (talk) 03:21, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Primeape

Why did you remove all of the romanizations and an entire word in the Origin section? My edit made it much more simple and easy to understand. ("Okorizaru may be a combo of these three Japanese words. Go ahead and try to pronounce it with these handy transliterations because you can't read Japanese.") Whenever we can transliterate a foreign language, we do. Plus, you justified your removal of an origin word (okotte) by saying "It's probably just ikari saru, despite the facts that ikari does not start with O and okotte is closely related to ikari"? If it's plausibly part of the Pokémon's origin, it goes in Origin. —TheVeryBest 05:32, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

While 怒り may be readable as 'ikari', that is by no means the only possible reading. 怒りん坊 does not read 'ikarinbou'; it reads 'okorinbou'. By the same token, I do not, as you say, suggest that 怒り猿 is 'ikarizaru' (or 'ikari saru'); rather, I suggest it reads the same as Primeape's name: 'okorizaru'.

The romanization could be repeated after 怒り猿 ("Okorizaru can be taken to be 怒り猿 okorizaru (angry monkey)"), and I wouldn't really be against that, but it is repetitive, so I decided not to at the time...

I don't actually see any reason to mention 'ikari' at all. 'Ikari' comes from the same kanji/spelling as 'okori' and "Okori" is the sound that's actually in Primeape's name... Every likelihood would suggest its name comes from 怒る befoe 怒り; 'ikari' simply is not necessary to explain Primeape's Japanese name origin. Tiddlywinks (talk) 14:20, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Juice Shoppe Colorful shake blend

I've yet to test this, but I think we might be able to rough estimate the value of the shakes by using rare candies on an eevee. I noticed eevee tries to evolve after 37 rare candies have been given to it.

If we can find out the value rare candies add to friendship, we can use that to factor in the colorful shake's value.

what do you think? Yamitora1 (talk) 19:01, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Yup, I've been wanting to get a handle on friendship in X/Y once I got the opportunity. At the moment, I've only been through about half the gyms, though. (Of course, I'm probably well enough leveled to beat the Elite Four already, too.) It's just a matter of when I make the progress. Tiddlywinks (talk) 19:06, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

here are a few results

colorful shake (2,200) + 29 rare candies = Evolution at lv 30

colorful shake (3,400) + 25 Rare Candies = Evolution at lv 26

colorful shake (2,200) + Rare Soda (3 lvs) + 35 Rare Candies = Evolution at lv 31

colorful shake (2,200) + blended colorful shake (Starf Berry + Cheri Berry) + 21 Rare Candies = Evolution at lv 22

colorful shake (2,200) + blended colorful shake (Starf Berry + Chilan Berry) + 18 Rare Candies = Evolution at lv 19

colorful shake (2,200) + blended colorful shake (Starf Berry + Roseli Berry) + 18 Rare Candies = Evolution at lv 19

colorful shake (2,200) + blended colorful shake (Starf Berry + Ganlon Berry) + 18 Rare Candies = Evolution at lv 19

blended colorful shake (Starf Berry + Cheri Berry) + 28 rare candies = Evolution at lv 29

blended colorful shake (Cheri Berry + Chilan Berry) + 31 rare candies = Evolution at lv 32

blended colorful shake (Chesto Berry + Chople Berry) + 31 rare candies = Evolution at lv 32

blended colorful shake (Starf Berry + Chilan Berry) + 25 rare candies = Evolution at lv 26

blended colorful shake (Starf Berry + Roseli Berry) + 25 rare candies = Evolution at lv 26

blended colorful shake (Starf Berry + Ganlon Berry) + 25 rare candies = Evolution at lv 26

Yamitora1 (talk) 19:15, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

i said might be out in event

Just as said in head line - unsigned comment from Pokemonfansuper (talk • contribs)

If it "might", then it also might not... It sounds to me like you want to comment on rumor, and that has no place here. Tiddlywinks (talk) 18:18, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Johto items

I agree that categorizing the items by the game which they first appeared in will make the item list look neater. However, the original sequence of items will nonetheless confuse the players as they have to refer to the list constantly due to the mixed up locations of the items. What I am trying to do is to ensure that the items are sorted by the sequence which the player is able to obtain them, although my edit was admittedly flawed. - unsigned comment from ‎Sadist4life (talk • contribs)

...If you want to keep track, our current item lists are greatly flawed in the first place. A pure text description of item locations simply lacks all context. The ideal solution would be to overlay items on an actual map—every other option is problematic to some degree.

By all means, try to improve the current state of affairs. But I believe that having to skip items (that are "in order") just because they're not in the game I'm currently playing is at least as bad as having to skip around the list (or whichever half pertains to my game...). I won't (personally) be satisfied with an order that doesn't at least group all the HGSS-exclusive items at the bottom. Tiddlywinks (talk) 02:07, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

About Guillotine and Horn Drill being made Flying-type due to Aerilate...

You said it shouldn't even be named trivia, right? For clarity's sake, if the fact that Horn Drill and Guillotine are made Flying through Aerilate and being able to one-shot Shedinja and Ghost-types should be its' own separate point, where would you suggest I put info like that, if it's even noteworthy at all?IM-T-MAN2 (talk) 02:55, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I thought that Shedinja could be made an interesting point as: Aerilate is the only possible way for a OHKO move to hit Shedinja.

Mentioning the rest doesn't seem notable to me since it's exactly the same for all Normal moves. You could perhaps make a case that OHKO moves are a bit special and it is noteworthy (...on the OHKO page, not the individual move pages). I do not feel it is, though. You'll have to ask a staff member if you want to know whether it's alright as trivia or if it should maybe be somewhere else (or if it doesn't need to be anywhere). Tiddlywinks (talk) 07:53, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Species name

They are considered notable as, unlike something like type combination which are restricted to just 18 things, species name aren't restricted to a group of words. In other words, the fact that some species name keeps getting reused when they could use a totally different word makes it notable.--Force Fire 03:17, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Norman

I want to point out that Norman is the fifth Gym Leader players encounter in the Hoenn games while Cheren is the first in Black 2 & White 2. In the Hoenn games, the Gym Leaders you battle in order are Roxanne, Brawley, Wattson, Flannery, Norman, Winona, Tate & Liza, and Wallace/Juan. The only reason why Ash encountered Norman so early on into the series is because he's May's father. --PKMNAdventurer (talk) 18:44, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

I am aware of what the games do. On the one hand, if you're concerned about the games, it's worded "first Gym encountered", not Gym Leader, and in the games, you do "encounter" the Petalburg Gym before any other.

But the trivia point didn't seem to have anything to do with the games; not as far as Norman was concerned, anyway. I don't know how Cheren fits, but I don't follow the anime so someone else can worry about that. Tiddlywinks (talk) 18:54, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Cheren is not encountered in the anime at all until There's a New Gym Leader in Town!, though he is referred to by Professor Juniper two episodes earlier. Ash already has all eight of his badges by this point, having acquired the 8th in Rocking the Virbank Gym! Part 2, a full 25 episodes before Cheren was even hinted at in the anime. Ash's 8th badge also marks a departure from the games in that Opelucid City is home to the eighth Gym (seventh in B2/W2); as the anime used it for Iris' hometown, and for an eventual battle against its leader, it was skipped over to introduce one of the new Gyms in B2/W2 instead. It should also be noted that Ash's battle against Cheren was an exhibition battle only, and not for an official Gym badge; Cheren had just opened the Gym in the same fashion as the games. Humilau, the eighth Gym in B2/W2, gets a later exhibition visit as well. CycloneGU (talk) 20:23, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Cheers

Thanks for checking Pay Day in Gen. IV. I have both IV and V, and actually imported a Shiny Meowth from V into VI |(thankfully I cloned it, as I hadn't noticed), so I can see whether the current Pay Day mechanics originate from then or Gen. VI. It seemed weird on level-up to get it based on 46 instead of 45. CycloneGU (talk) 17:00, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

And now I don't know what to do. I just had two separate Persians at Lv.64 use Pay Day, level up, and got 640 instead of 650. This will definitely require more testing by me. As I want these two Persian at identical experience for now (they are my breeding pair), I'll have to raise one of their offspring for additional testing. CycloneGU (talk) 20:01, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

It's pretty unique

That actually IS pretty unique, and why does that get changed, but not the other thousands of pages with similar info in trivia? --TheLegitFork (talk) 22:39, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

As a rule, if a Pokemon is not the only one about which you can make a claim, it's not worth including in trivia. I.e., if something is not unique to a Pokemon, it's not notable. A simple example is typing: it is not notable that Aerodactyl and Archen/Archeops are the only two Rock/Flying Pokemon. Similarly, becasue Mew does not have a unique lv100 experience value among Legendaries, it is not notable. Tiddlywinks (talk) 23:06, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

House translation

Can you translate this word, 占いの館? It has to be something related with a house. Patty Man 03:35, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Pretty much "fortune-teller's/telling house". Or mansion, maybe inn... How you want to word it might depend on what the place is like exactly. Tiddlywinks (talk) 04:04, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

You erased my edit.

Why do you keep on erasing my edit when I add "It's cry is nearly identical to Poliwhirl's," to the page on Wigglytuff? By player 3.25 (talk) 22:12, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

*I* have only done it once. But you've been told that it's not notable. (If you ask me:) "Nearly" is not good enough, and it's also somewhat subjective. Tiddlywinks (talk) 22:17, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Trivia on Torchic's page [1]

Basically what I was going for was that in Gen I Pikachu was a basic stage starter but in Gen II it no longer was. I'm not actually sure if Pikachu should even be on there actually as there weren't even Genders (I believe) in Gen I (Pokémon Yellow) let along gender differences so the except Pikachu bit may not need to be there. What do you think?--Ditto51/Tom (My Talk Page) 13:07, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Oh! I kind of forgot about Pichu. (This is kind of what I meant about not being sure I understood what "basic stage" was referring to/implying...)

I think since you can make arguments for and against Pikachu, it's just easier to be on the safe side and keep the "excluding Pikachu". I mean, that statement won't really hurt anyone who'd already think Pikachu shouldn't count.

As for what I reverted, I see what you mean to clarify now, but - just like it was confusing to me - I'm not sure it's worth the potential confusion (or worth the acrobatics to clarify it well). IMO it's not an egregious difference... Plus, trying to clarify that just brings up the Gen I vs Gen II+ issue you mentioned above. If you really want, though, a simple "fix" that kind of subtly addresses all of these concerns is to change "excluding Pikachu" to "not counting Pikachu" ("excluding" implies it was a valid part of the set, while "not counting" simply implies someone thought it should be). You could do that if you still want. Tiddlywinks (talk) 16:35, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Anime staff

Thanks for adding Kanji. I will be needing some more help with the episode staff as well. So, will you mind adding Kanji for those as well, not necessarily right now but when they get added? I'll try to leave the Kanji version in the edit summaries. Adyniz — Wanna talk? 09:11, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I'll be glad to do it if I know it needs doing. That is, pretty much if it's obvious from the edit summaries. I'm not into the anime so I usually ignore it, but when I notice things like that that I might help with, I like to investigate. =) Tiddlywinks (talk) 09:34, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

RE: X and Y images

That list looks to be doable. Coincidentally, I already captured the box wallpapers previously, now I just need to find the files again... A question concerning those though, in XY, the party is constantly open right next to the box itself, should that be in the picture? If yes, should it be as empty as possible? - Mr. Flix | Talk to me^^ 19:23, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

It might look a little weird, but it'd probably be best to cut out that repeated space. (It does give you a convenient place to rest your cursor, though. =P ) Just trim the image to the "Box" part that's actually affected by the wallpaper.

Also, I'm going to suppose for a moment that you've got the Box name in those images. If you take two pictures, one with the Box named "a" with a bunch of spaces before it and one with a bunch of spaces after, then you can combine the two to get a Box where that name header is clean. Tiddlywinks (talk) 03:43, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Damn, that solution for the box name is so simple... Why didn't I think of that? xD Well then, onto making the images new, can't find them anyway :) - Mr. Flix | Talk to me^^ 11:29, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Mew Trivia Change Undone

"That's not substantially different from the wording that was previously reverted" The information i replaced was false though. I can play an unmodified version of firered and catch mew, all i need to do is battle it and use a master ball. I can also catch zapdos in unmodified emerald, with the same requirements as mew. --Xyifer12 (talk) 14:55, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Zapdos is not in Emerald and Mew is not in FRLG. If you can catch them, you are cheating or exploiting some sort of glitch. Such "exceptions" are not worth qualifying. Tiddlywinks (talk) 15:08, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

"Zapdos is not in Emerald and Mew is not in FRLG" Not normally in the wild, but throughout the rest of the games just like any starter pokemon. "If you can catch them, you are cheating or exploiting some sort of glitch" Not true, i could catch the pokemon on a modded game. A crystal remake is an example. What page states that correcting information like this is not worth it? Also, how can i check the rules for gba pokemon games, because i have yet to play a pokemon game that shows me even a single rule. --Xyifer (talk) 15:21, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

You're not making sense...

For one thing, you first said that you could catch Mew/Zapdos in an unmodified game, then you tell me my response is false because you can catch them in a modded game, completely contradicting yourself.
I also have no idea what you mean by "throughout the rest of the games just like any starter pokemon".
And I don't have the first clue what you're talking about with "rules for (GBA) Pokemon games" either. Tiddlywinks (talk) 15:29, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

I was pointing out that i could catch zapdos in a pokemon emerald mod, i do not need to cheat or use a glitch to do so. That was an example of why "If you can catch them, you are cheating or exploiting some sort of glitch" is incorrect. It was not a contradiction. " also have no idea what you mean" I mean that in those games, they are like any non legendary pokemon. They are in the pokedex, can be traded, and can battle. They actually are in the games. An action is not cheating if rules are not broken. If there is no rule against using glitches to my advantage in pokemon games, doing so is not cheating. --Xyifer (talk) 15:48, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

1) My response was predicated on your original comment regarding using unmodified games. It's a little amazing, to put it generously, that you could honestly take my response and assume I meant "even in modded games". (To be clear: unless I explicitly say otherwise, you can always assume I am referring to "unmodified games".)

2) Of course they have stats and can be traded and all that jazz. But Mew can only be obtained in FRLG if it's traded to the game, and likewise for Zapdos in Emerald. By "not in the game", I mean that you cannot acquire them without trading "outside" of Emerald or FRLG. They do not appear in the wild so that you can throw a Poke Ball and catch them, or as a gift/trade from an NPC in the world.

3) You should note that I never said that exploiting glitches was "cheating". I only say they should be treated the same: as not worth qualifying (since they both allow things which were not intended). Tiddlywinks (talk) 16:16, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

You originally said that mew is not in firered. Now you say you cannot aquire it without trading and you cannot find it in the wild, with a completely unaltered game. Again, what you say is incorrect. Mew can be obtained in an unmodified version of firered with the use of gameshark. Gameshark does not alter the game in any way, it alters RAM. They also appear in the wild thanks to gameshark, in an unmodified game. I realize that you never stated that using glitches is cheating, you stated that i would be cheating (breaking the rules of the game) if i were catching a mew in firered. I have yet to learn of any rule in FR that makes catching a mew cheating. --Xyifer (talk) 16:33, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

I tire of this. You seem completely unable to comprehend a very common perspective on "cheating" (assuming you're not trolling). I will simply say this: GameShark is cheating. I am telling you that this is true. You can refuse to accept my view. But I have no intention of arguing or justifying it since you continue to misunderstand or spin everything about. If it comes down to it, I'm sure you'll find that many other users on this site hold the same view as me.

Even if this discussion is not to your satisfaction, I would advise you not to reedit the Mew page as you have (or similarly). If you must argue it, you should take your case to the page Talk:Mew (Pokémon) and see if anyone there has the patience to respond to your satisfaction. Tiddlywinks (talk) 17:13, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Using gameshark is not cheating unless it breaks a rule of the game. Check the definition of "cheat". --Xyifer (talk) 17:18, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Pokemon Pinball image

i cannot upload images yet. if i send you the link, will you upload the image for the pokemon pinball ruby table? i have a larger version ready to replace the old one - unsigned comment from Xyifer12 (talk • contribs)

Supposing this is really meant for me and not someone else...I kind of don't want to. FWIW, this doesn't really have to do with the above (except insofar as my patience has worn down in general, perhaps). You might attempt to make your request on a:File talk:Ruby Field.png, or else ask a staff member there. Tiddlywinks (talk) 17:13, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the links. --Xyifer (talk) 17:20, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Pokemon Type Combinations

Actually, you were talking about unique type combinations at that point. You said "Instead of including every permutation (of type combinations - of which there are 324), this list only includes type combinations." It makes no sense as you are not specifying whether or not the list includes all or just unique type combinations. Adding unique before specified that the list makes no distinction between a shared type combination in a different order. - unsigned comment from Disgraced (talk • contribs)

Oh, I'm sorry, I got confused by the existence of this page. But besides that, a combination by definition makes no distinction based on order. The explicit difference between combinations and permutations is that permutations take order into account while combinations do not. "Unique" is still an unnecessary qualifier. Tiddlywinks (talk) 13:00, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

That page is using unique in a different context. That page refers to pokemon who are unique in their typing. The page we're talking about is using unique to describe that to two tables make no distinction between type combinations of a different order. By saying it includes 171 unique type combinations of the possible 324, it implies that, for example, ghost/dark and dark/ghost are considered one unique type combination. - unsigned comment from Disgraced (talk • contribs)

Maybe. I do agree with that. But instead of using the word combinations, how about saying "unique permutations"? I agree the combination doesn't by definition include order, but to most readers, they won't know that. I would prefer using "unique permutations". I know by definition that a combinations is a unique permutation, but for ease of understanding and wording, I think including unique is important. - unsigned comment from Disgraced (talk • contribs)

(FYI, comments on talk pages should always be "signed" at the end by typing four tildes (~). ...But that doesn't mean you should resign your comments above. Just for future reference.)

If it would make you feel better, I wouldn't be against linking "permutation" and "combination" to their Wikipedia articles. But saying "unique permutations" may be more nonsensical than "unique combinations". At least "combination" has a colloquial meaning that actually fits "permutation". (Since I used both "permutation" and "combination" on the page, though, that colloquial meaning should have no impact. To the extent that a person's own misunderstanding may cause confusion, I am willing to link the words, but not add in "unique"...not with the current structure.) Tiddlywinks (talk) 13:22, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Okay. If unique is an unnecessary qualifier then how come on the Type article, it uses the phrase "171 unique combinations of types"? If combination means unique permutation by default, then that sentence should be changed to "171 Type Combinations" as unique is an unnecessary qualifier. Disgraced (talk) 13:32, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

It may seem redundant to have the words unique combination together as a combination by definition is unique, but for the sake of confusion, most people don't differentiate between combination and permutation. I can confidently say that most people wouldn't know the difference even though there is one. While technically that is the difference, for simplicity, including the word unique would prevent any confusion despite it being redundant. If avoiding redundancy outweighs the cost of a wordy sentence that may cause confusion to most people who don't know the difference then leave it unchanged. Disgraced (talk) 13:41, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Just because most people don't know the difference is no reason to lower standards. What about the people who do understand the difference and consider the phrasing plainly dumb? Or are confused because they take it to mean something else (as I did: "unique to one Pokemon/family")? The solution is not to cater to the lowest common denominator at the expense of the rest. You seek a solution that is correct for both. Linking "permutation" and "combination" satisfies that, while adding "unique" very much does not.

As for Type, its intro is fundamentally different from List of type combinations by abundance's. Whereas the latter page goes to pains to give an example of the same type combination assigned differently and explicitly mentions "permutations", the former is kept simple and brief. In that brevity, with "324 possible ways to assign types" so near, it makes sense to directly contrast that to unique combinations therein. The type page does not explicitly explain how some of the type assignments can be the same, so some "redundancy" is actually useful in that case. (I don't really consider it "redundant", per se, but I don't know what to properly label it either.)

(I would also advise you to avoid making multiple edits in a short time to a page. It's better to just take the time you think you need beforehand, or else defer it to later.) Tiddlywinks (talk) 13:53, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

I made that edit to the Type page as to completely remove any reference to permutation at all. It's unnecessary to refer to combinations and permutations and then distinguish between them when the only thing need to be made clear is that there are 324 possible ways to order types an 171 ways if you discount the same type combination in a different order. Not to mention your pretentious attitude in thinking it is a lower standard to use combination and permutation interchangeably when the difference between the is very minor and in almost all modern use of the word combination as a synonym to permutation. Instead of displaying your higher standard of vocabulary, perhaps the point should be made to get the point across in as few words as possible. Disgraced (talk) 14:08, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

In point of fact - the very point I made above, in fact - "permutation" is not mentioned on Type at all. That is every difference. That usage of "unique" is highlighting a quality of "combinations". That is brevity, economy of words. It's not important for the Type page to go to the pains that the abundance page does, so it does not, but highlighting the difference between possible ways to assign types, which may have some "repitition", and combinations is still valuable.

Your primary interest here is arguing against "unique combinations" just because it wasn't right on the abundance page. But that fails to take into account the significant differences in both pages. Language does not always follow the exact same rules for things that appear the same. Tiddlywinks (talk) 14:19, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

I have to say you've been quite rude, intolerant, and narrow-minded. By refusing to acknowledge the double-standard and hypocrisy of allowing the redundant use of unique combinations to be disallowed on one page but allowed on another. Not only that but claiming that fixing a minor error is pedantic behaviour. Your intolerance and narrow-mindedness is excessive and your unwillingness to accept that perhaps you can be wrong is disgusting. You revert to edit wars, Ad Hominem, and downright pretentiousness as evidence to your beliefs. Your immature and child-like methods grow tiresome. --Disgraced (talk) 14:53, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

I've tried to explain to you why it's not "hypocrisy". For what it's worth, I have not in any of the above meant any particular rudeness or insult or any of the rest you ascribe to me.

I have not seen anything approaching "proof" that I am substantively wrong in these cases. Tiddlywinks (talk) 15:11, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Yikes

I made lots of mistakes in the second edit. Tried to correct them and you beat me to "Misgagius", a typo which I also made at Mismagius. Wow, I must be tired today.

Going to add similar trivia to Murkrow and Misdreavus...if I can word it correctly. CycloneGU (talk) 19:30, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Direct link

Can I ask the point of this edit? That {{game4}} was actually designed for that specific purpose of linking it that way and it actually adds more bytes to the page to hard link it instead of that template. So that one isn't a laziness use, and in this situation, it's okay to link to "Pokémon Green Version" as a redirect. ^^' (I do agree that we don't need something like "Pokmon FireRed", though, that's just silly to have). Thanks for your understanding! --ZestyCactus 02:40, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't like redirects for any reason. If you want to revert it, I won't argue against a staff member, but I just don't consider a "solution" that creates a redirect to be a good solution, fewer bytes or not... Tiddlywinks (talk) 02:47, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

If I may since I got alerted to the edits here (posted earlier)...doesn't having to redirect through a template also cause a loading of that template, meaning more bytes to be loaded to generate the template result? I think direct linking (Tiddlywink's method) is a cleaner way to do it, and makes more sense to other editors on the page instead of a template I never even knew existed (I always thought those were direct linked, have never edited that page). Just my opinion, though. CycloneGU (talk) 02:54, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Tiddlywinks: Just because you dislike something, doesn't mean you should go on a massive purge of such. It's always best to contact a staff member before undertaking a massive project such as this. They'll help you know what's okay and what's not.

CycloneGU: No, it doesn't do anything of the sort. The only time a template can cause additional load is if its a template calling another template, which is not the case in any of the links that were being changed. Link templates exist to reduce the amount of code on pages, and to allow common link formats to be handled in a quicker, and more efficient, manner. - Kogoro - Talk to me - 03:11, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

You're applying my response above to too wide a context. I was speaking against the supposed savings that Zesty Cactus said the template provided, which, by my values (i.e., redirects are bad), do not make the template acceptable.

I did not at all start this "purge" "just because" I dislike redirects. I certainly won't deny I dislike them, but the primary factor was that it is also my understanding that redirects are undesirable on the wiki. That is why I started fixing them. Tiddlywinks (talk) 03:46, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

My take is that redirects are fine in cases of user error; for instance, "charmander" instead of "Charmander" or, as I tend to link as I'm used to it, "Charmander". However, maybe I misunderstood. Templates like the Pokémon one I just used work, but from a user editing standpoint, it's easier for a user to pick up on the second linked example of "Charmander" there. If the Daycare one is like this, then fine, it works; however, I think Tiddlywinks' method is easier for other editors to pick up on and not accidentally screw up if a character is accidentally added or removed. That said, on some pages space is at a premium (see Headbutt, which has had a couple of revamps including one I suggested in some way), so templates save a few characters as well on those pages. CycloneGU (talk) 07:26, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Hey, Tiddly? About uniqueness...

When you say something "unique" enough to be noteworthy, what exactly do you mean, for future clarity? Here, I'll give you a hypothetical scenario. Let's say a Normal/Ghost or a Fairy/Fighting type Pokémon, would that be worth noting in the trivia? After all, no other Pokémon has these combos to date.IM-T-MAN2 (talk) 19:27, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

As a rule, if a Pokemon(/its family) is not the only one about which you can make a claim, it's not worth including in trivia. The hypothetical of unique typing isn't really hypothetical. =P Diggersby's trivia notes its unique typing, as I'm sure the other Pokemon with unique typings do. Tiddlywinks (talk) 19:46, 25 August 2014 (UTC)