Talk:League of Peja

DON'T CHANGE THE NAME OF THIS INTO SOMETHING LIKE LEAGUE OF PEC

That would be utterly ridiculous. sulmues (talk)--Sulmues 22:06, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Removed WikiProject Serbia

Removed WikiProject Serbia as this article has nothing to do with Serbia. Tadija (talk · contribs), any reason for adding WikiProject Serbia except for trying to start a flame-war? Cheers. kedadial 16:45, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Removing WikiProject Serbia despite the fact that there are many countries and UN resolution (still) treating Peja as part of Serbia, and in the same time leaving this article within WikiProject Albania despite the fact that Peja has never been in Albania, but in Ottoman empire, then Yugoslavia and now Serbia (or Kosovo, depending of the POV) is against NPOV. If some users are allowed to put this article in WikiProject Albania, it would be wrong to forbid other users to put it in WikiProject Serbia. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 06:40, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't think we're in the same page; we are not talking about the present-day city but for the league of that time, that's why WikiProject Serbia has no room in here as it has nothing to do with Serbia. Cheers, — Kedaditalk 14:13, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

I am against your point of view. If members of WikiProjekt Serbia want this article to be in that project, why do you object? Does it mean that you will delete WikiProjekt Albania and WikiProjekt Kosovo too? Please return tag for WikiProjekt Serbia that you removed without consensus. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:20, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Find my answers below:

• "I am against your point of view" -We don't always have to share the same POV.
• "If members of WikiProjekt Serbia want this article to be in that project, why do you object?" -The scope of WikiProject Serbia is clearly defined, "articles related to Serbia and Serbians".
• "Does it mean that you will delete WikiProjekt Albania and WikiProjekt Kosovo too?" -No, because it's part of their history.
• "Please return tag for WikiProjekt Serbia that you removed without consensus." -I will gladly do it, if the scope of WikiProject Serbia changes, to also include Albania and Albanians; that would become "articles related to Serbia and Serbians, Albania and Albanians".

Cheers, — Kedaditalk 22:33, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Peć is/was in modern Serbia for almost a hundred years, and in medieval feudal states led by Serb nobility for centuries. Patriarch Irinej of Serbia will be formally enthroned to the ancient throne of the Serbian Patriarch in the Patriarchate of Peć monastery few days ago. On the other side, Peć has never been in Albania. How can you leave League of Peja to be part of history of Albania and delete from WikiProject Serbia, despite all presented facts and despite the fact that two other users wrote arguments taht it should be within that project, and you are one oposing? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:23, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Again, we're not talking about the city but about the league which sought autonomy for Albania (not for Serbia) within the Ottoman Empire. Cheers, — Kedaditalk 23:32, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

NPOV - Ottoman vilayets that were occupied by Ottomans and in the same time belonged to Albanians?

"Kosovo was one of four provinces - vilayets, that belonged to Albanians under Ottoman occupation."

This sentence is completely wrong and against NPOV. It was under Ottoman empire that this four villayets were established. Ottomans could not establish villayets, then to occupy them. Therefore it is wrong to call existence of Ottoman empire as occupation and especially wrong to state that there were some villayets that belonged to Albanians, because those villayets belonged to Ottoman empire, and it this villayets lived other people as well: Greeks, Turks, Bulgarians, Serbs, Vlachs ...... Therefore this sentence should be changed to:

Kosovo villayet was one of four Ottoman provinces (villayets) with significant presence of Albanian population. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:01, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Move

I have moved the article for the following purpose: the city in English remains known as Peć and the venture was not widely known. To that end, Peja is meaningless in English. The term Lidhja e Pejës is wholly valid in that it is the Albanian title and if any editor feels that the Albanian name of the town (neither the English name then, now or in any intervening time) is needed, I recommend the page move to [Lidhja e Pejës]. Wikipedia continues to use Peć and the continued use of mixed language looks little different to Lidhja e Peć. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 15:17, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

I've gone one better and done precisely that. Cannot upset any Albanian editor now!!! Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 15:22, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

The situation is that League of is only a translation into English and these things are not always necessary, it would be silly to move Gotov je to [He is finished]. By contrast, the League of Prizren is well known and widely documented. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 15:28, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Evlekis it'd be prudent per the naming policies not to make such moves as the League of Peja is the prevalent term used for this organization [1], not to mention that since there's a common English term using an Albanian one as a title needless. Btw League of Pec is used by one source (a translation of a Serbian-language work [2]), so please don't add it again as the English translation. Similar arguments have been made regarding Danzig etc and all wikipedia can do is use the most common terms. Based on such core principles there's a Free City of Danzig, but not a Free City of Gdansk--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 17:07, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

English has recorded sources of Danzig for Gransk, Peja has never been on the radar and even now it is largely restricted to Albanian publications and outlets whose authors are Albanian symapthisers. What you have now is the best, the article per the actual name. Question, what does it mean in English? Answer: League of...a place. That place in English is potentially disputed, but more sources past and present speak of Peć than they do Peja, and this includes those "reliable" sources like the BBC which glorified the KLA in the late 1990s. They all said Peć and so does Wikipedia. Meanwhile the sources for this subject are few and its notability is questionable. I'd be inclined to keep it as it is now with both versions. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 17:50, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Please also note that Free City of Danzig (FCD) is incommensurable with Lidhja e Pejës. You are talking about a fully-fledged state here with its Danzig (Germanic) population who dominated. FCD is precisely how the entity was known in English. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 17:58, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

The "League of Pec" is not used by any sources, except for Filipovic [3]. Majuru (talk) 21:32, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Wrong. Yes it is. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 21:44, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Let us check what sources say:

• Robert Elsie: "This was also the goal of the political movement of 1897-1899, the so-called League of Peja / Pec"
• Noel Malcolm: "It is also commonly referred to as the League of Peja (the Albanian name for Pec)."
• Miranda Vickers, "League of Peja (the Albanian name for Pec),"

It is obvious that contemporary scholars authoritative in this topic thought that it was necessary to clarify and emphasize that Peje in the name of this organization refers to Peć. Therefore I think that Evlekis is right that this article should also clarify it.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:37, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. Jafeluv (talk) 12:30, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

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Lidhja e Pejës → League of Peja – Used in English sources. Majuru (talk) 21:36, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Despite having been the person to unilaterally move the page twice (believing the action to be in good faith because of the common English name for the town), I have no problem with the return to the original based on the majority of sources - regardless that they too are very few. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 21:44, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

"League of Peja", but also "Patriarchate of Pec". I'm too pro information, but this time the sources you brought for "League of Pec" are forum-related. Majuru (talk) 22:16, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Patriarchate of Peć is correct and dates back to the pre-Ottoman Serbian Empire. Concerning League of Peć, there either are or are not sources. In the first place, a forum can only use it if it is known in that form, in the second place, the first source is pro-Albanian and in the third, those are not forum-based because there is no chatroom sequence. They are weblogs, sufficient in making the point but there are other sources. Don't forget, there is very little reliable information on this topic. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 22:20, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support. Per WP:COMMONNAME. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:24, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
• Support. Also per WP:COMMONNAME. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:50, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, there is no requirement for further support because I would have been its only opponent, especially as I am responsible for the page being where it is. I accept the COMMONNAME theory and I concede that I did not look that far into it when making the change. To this end, I will (later on when I have more time) make the request to have the page returned. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 12:27, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Request made[4] Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 16:55, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

This page is still waiting to be moved. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 11:53, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.