Talk:Molon labe

Comments

I'm sure someone knows how to pronounce this, as well as the dialect of Greek it represents. These could be useful additions to the article.

Shouldn't this be mentioned on Battle of Thermopylae? I don't know enough about the history of the battle to integrate it. Lord Bodak 13:41, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I feel like the last sentence regarding "setbacks" to the pro-RKBA movement violates NPOV. It could be convincingly argued on both sides. I'm removing it.Admiralahab 01:45, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I added to the See Also a mention of the book Molon Labe, but I am not sure how to link it best. An article needs to be written on the book, so how should that book show up? The phrase is far more popular than the book, so it seems like a disambiguation page would not be the best idea. Should there be a disambiguation note at the top of the article? Should the article on the book be titled Molon Labe (novel)?

There is no "b" in the entire statement, it is a v —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.236.221.124 (talk) 06:23, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

The first I'd heard the phrase was in the movie "300 Spartans" when Richard Egan says it to the Persian emissary. There's a clip that's posted with some regularity of him saying it.

The Greek letters

I changed the Greek letters, because it wasn't accurate. The first was just in capital letters, which is common in Greece for brands and merchandise, the second was in lowercase letters. The good combination is Μολὼν Λαβέ. --Soetermans 23:54, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Based on my 4 semesters of university ancient Attic Greek (so, I'm definitely not an expert), ancient Greek rarely used capital letters, and did not use them at the start of sentences. So I think the Greek should actually be μολών λάβε. I am fully prepared for there to be a wrinkle to the grammar that I don't comprehend, however, so a more knowledgeable opinion would be good. -Sketchmoose (talk) 18:10, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

The comment above has been here for some time but since it is in error I would like to point readers to the Greek alphabet article which confirms my memory of the fact that in ancient Greece (i.e. Classical Greece and before i.e. at the time of the Persian wars and Leonidas) the capital (majuscule) letter forms were used exclusively, the opposite of what Sketchmoose remembered:

"While it was originally written with only a single, majuscule form for each letter, the Greek alphabet developed a second set of letter forms, the minuscule letters, during the Middle Ages, resulting in the modern system of uppercase and lowercase forms."

I don't know that it matters that the lede here renders the Greek in the lower case (miniscule) but as in the case of the illustrated Leonidas Monument, the original majuscule has a certain inscriptional dignity and historical gravitas:

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Mu Omicron Lambda Omega Nu Lambda Alpha Beta Epsilon or Molon Labe

—Blanchette (talk) 05:45, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

hello. i dont know how to edit. it was also used by Grigoris Afxentiou, a fighter in the EOKA movement in 1955-59 when the english asked him to surrender. Please, if you can, find the event with more accurate facts and post it. Thanks.

Lost in translation

"the implication is that the outcome is certain—"after you have come here and defeated me, then it will be yours to take." I'm curious, how is the notion of "defeat" implied moreso in the Greek version than english? I understand that the Greek emphasis the fact that you must first completed "coming" before "taking", but the leap from that to imply "defeat before taking" would be the same as in English no? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.12.76.98 (talk) 09:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

Alamo Flag?

Hi, I don't believe that the "Come and Take It" flag flew at the Alamo; it flew over the fort in Gonzales, TX during the battle of Gonzales, as a rude dare to the Mexican Army to attempt reacquisition of the stolen cannon. Search for "Battle of Gonzales" on this site and you'll see what I'm talking about. JaegerRukajarvi 20:06, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Grammatical aspect - English.

The article states this: "Greek language has a nuance not present in English: aspect. " Not quite. English has a complex and involved grammatical aspect, even if one can conflate it with tense. Please see the Article in question and decide whether English lacks grammatical aspect. I don't think it does, and from what I can tell out there, a lot of linguists and grammarians agree with me. Peter1968 02:32, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, it has aspect, sort of, but it doesn't have this one! 82.36.26.70 18:11, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

No, you're right. English doesn't have Classical Greek's aspect. Who'd have thought, huh? Peter1968 23:11, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Dispute posted for over a month without any counter, I removed the statement and the dispute. --Wgfinley 00:19, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Grammar section - original research

The following, while interesting, seems to be original research and also a bit overstated.

The difference in meaning is subtle but significant: the English speaker is inviting his enemy to begin a process with two distinct acts or parts—coming and taking; the Greek speaker is telling his enemy that only after the act of coming is completed will he be able to take. In addition there is a subtle implication: in English "come and take it" implies that the enemy might not win the struggle—the outcome is uncertain; in Greek, the implication is that the outcome is certain—"after you have come here and defeated me, then it will be yours to take."

Also the claim about the certainty of the outcome in Greek is questionable. The aspect of molon implies that the taking will occur after the coming but it says nothing about defeat. Armies can come without defeating their adversaries. Although I enjoyed reading this section, I feel it falls under "original research" and belongs in someone's blog unless, that is, reliable, neutral sources can be found for these claims. Interlingua 14:05, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Alternative and crude translation.

There is apparently an alternative and just as accurate translation, which keeps in character with the Spartan attitude towards 'barbarians' and when seen in context of battle. If Leonidas had replied "MOLON LAVE TAYTA", then he would have specifically referred to the taking of weapons. However, in ancient Greece the phrase "MOLON LAVE" is said to have meant the equivalent of "Suck my ****" (I'll leave you to fill in the obvious blank), usually accompanied by a gesture to the groin. As a sign of the contempt Spartans felt towards 'barbarians' (Persia included), bear in mind that they killed Xerxes' envoys. Apparently this phrase was in widespread use just as it is today. The translation to "Come and get them!" was made amongst polite society for general public consumption. Given the context of Leonidas' reply being in battle, and Spartans not being known for their gentile demeanour, I personally feel the crude version is the correct one. It has been suggested that Xerxes' unusual mutilation of the dead king was because he had used this phrase to insult Xerxes.

Alternative and more polite responses to Xerxes' request that the Spartans hand over their weapons could have been: "OU PARADIDOMETHA" - "We will not surrender."; "APOKLEIETE" - literally "Excluded" - meaning "Out of the question."; "OU PARADOSO TA" - "I will never surrender them."; "OUDEPOTE" - "Never." (firmly but politely).

I only post this as I feel it should be seen, and I don't believe in sanitising history and looking at history out of context, whereas past generations did when they deemed it necessary. I haven't put it in the Wiki entry, as it's only fair for others to discuss first and I don't have the primary source evidence. This first came to light on Roman Army Talk as part of a discussion of Roman and Greek crude inscriptions and insults (e.g., inscriptions on shields), and, if necessary, I'll attempt to find out more.

Added: The mutilation of Leonidas's corpse did not sit well with the Persian nobility, according to Herodotus, feeling it would make the defection of Greeks to the Persian side less likely. This may emphasise the unusual action of the mutilation, and lends some weight to any theory that it was the result of some great insult to Xerxes. --Tarbicus 29 August 2007

Why no link to Laconic phrase?

Why does this article fail to link to the article on "Laconic phrase"? Molon Labe is the perfect example of a Laconic phrase (although the Spartans were generally masters of the noble art of terse verbal machismo, along with the later Vikings).--Peter Knutsen 19:39, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Hellenic 1st Army Coprs.png

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BetacommandBot 02:26, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Grammar section needs trimming

Anytime the word "never" appears, that's a red flag. I think the entire sentence "The English speaker can understand it with a little thought, but he would never use it." should just be eliminated. An intelligent English speaker would not only understand this construction, he (or she!) could most certainly use it. A man gives a book to a friend, and tells her: "Having finished, call me." Sure it sounds a little old fashioned, but it's certainly not grammatically incorrect. In short, the grammar section should stick to Greek grammar, which is fascinating enough as it is, and not try to teach English people how to speak English. Daniel Freeman (talk) 10:16, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Ancient Greek IPA pronunciation

There seems to be an extraneous accent mark on ɔ̀ː and é, which aren't present anywhere inside of the IPA article. As such, I've removed them. GoogolplexForce (talk) 00:45, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Those accents represent high and low pitch respectively, which is probably what the Greek acute and grave accents marked (although the grave accent's pronunciation might have been mid-tone instead). See WP:IPA for Greek, right column of table, bottom, and International Phonetic Alphabet#Suprasegmentals. — Eru·tuon 13:25, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Grammar again

I have shortened and rewritten the last paragraph of the grammar section. Several statements were tagged as needed citations, but I don't know of any to support them. My knowledge of Greek grammar is hardly complete, but this is a common construction and I don't know of anything that supports the particular conclusions reached in the prior version of the paragraph. I have tried to keep it simple, pointing out that the use of an aorist participle in this construction shows the order of the actions, but not opining on the nuance that may demonstrate in this particular case. Eluchil404 (talk) 08:13, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Pronunciation

I don't know where and who said that the pronounnciation is different in the phrase Molon Lave ΜΟΛΟΝ ΛΑΒΕ , but in both Modern and Ancient Greek the letter B was always a V sound. In Greek you have to mix a Greek M and a Greek P to get a B sound EXAMPLE BABA ΜΠΑΜΠΑ μπαμπα- meaning daddy -- 2604:2000:6aeb:fe00:a45e:329f:23a4:5a8a

It was pronounced /b/ in classical Greek, but it became /v/ still in antiquity, some time around 100 BC or so. See Koine_Greek_phonology#Stop_consonants.

Fwiiw, there is no doubt that Leonidas would have pronounced it /labe/. Plutarch, who reports the phrase, otoh, would probably already have said /lave/. --dab (𒁳) 09:46, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Use of this phrase as a Second Amendment saying

I see 'notion' as a loaded term indicating disapproval. I suggest a more objective descriptor (e.g. 'idea' or maybe 'principle' or perhaps 'belief').71.209.178.211 (talk) 06:03, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

"See also"

Why is "noli me tangere" listed in "see also"? --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 01:55, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Leonidas Molon Labe.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 07:37, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Texans have been here before.

Molan Labe is the sounding call of the day. 2603:8080:EF06:82EE:49A1:D847:A75:4D2A (talk) 09:19, 26 November 2021 (UTC)