Talk:Northern Cyprus/Archive 19

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Apparent WP:TEND and WP:POV in previous edit

Dear Khirurg

You undid my revision citing WP:TEND and WP:POV. Please explain why and provide where you believe this to be the case. Please also look at the discussion I opened on this talk page to refer to the reasons I provided for my edits. You're also welcome to contribute. Thank you Nargothronde (talk) 07:57, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Your edits: [1], are quite problematic, and to be honest, that can easily be noticed from the very first edits already.

Some of the problems that your edits are causing to the article and the readers are, for example, the part where you have changed the "Recognised only by Turkey" into "Internationally recognised only by Turkey", which is giving the readers a false impression about the term "recognition". As you know, Turkey is not a third party to the Cyprus problem: Turkey is perpetrator of the Turkish Invasion and founder of the statelet in the occupied northern half of the island. To say that "internationally" the island is recognised by its founder, is like trying to give a spotlight of internationality to the legal recognition of the unrecognized state. On the other hand, the term "Internationally" couldnt be a problem to add to the article if there was really a real recognition for Northern Cyprus, by any third party countries besides the founder itself.

All your other edits also can't seem to differientate from this approach: Your addition of the "and displace the Turkish Cypriot diaspora is giving the readers the false impression that the Turkish Cypriots are not native to the island, but merely a diaspora people, which raises the question among readers: Are the Turkish Cypriots merely a diaspora, and if yes, then for whom? Turks in Cyprus are diaspora of Turkey. Turkish Cypriots in Cyprus are not diaspora, are natives. The Turkish Cypriots can be regarded a diaspora only if they live/reside in areas outside of the island of Cyprus, i.e. the United Kingdom.

Also, further down in the same paragraph, in one of your other edits, you have inserted thhe following: Eight years after this, after espousing human rights and a desire to live side-by-side with the Greek Cypriots, and citing the legitimacy granted to the Greek Cypriot government by the international. Really I can't help it but note how this is, for me at least, crossing the lines of WP:ADVOCACY, and not only... To claim that the statelet is "espousing human rights", is to ignore the human right violations this state has committed by declaring proclamation on territories that belonged to their rightful owners, the people who used to live and reside here prior to the invasion. In Cyprus, the human rights (and particularly the housing/property rights) of the Cypriots, and especially of Greek, Armenian and Maronite ancestry, have been violated en masses, and therefore the sentence which says "Northern Cyprus espousing human rights" is merely your one-sided opinion, not a fact. Wikipedia, per WP:TRUTH, accepts only facts. Not editorial opinions.

There are so many problems with your edits and I can't even bother explaining them all; these examples above, are just some of these issues found with your edits. I would have had them reverted myself if others weren't quicker than me on this, as they violate Wikipedia's rules and are unacceptable for inclusion to the article. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 20:08, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

@Nargothronde: SilentResident makes a good point that in the context of the edit displace the Turkish Cypriot diaspora doesn't make sense to describe a native people as a diaspora. There seems to be similar careless language throughout the proposed edit. You might want to go over your edit to make sure the content is sourced and review for inaccurate or imprecise language along the lines of what has been pointed out in this discussion. Seraphim System ^(talk) 09:24, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Khirurg 👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 Seraphim System. I think I should go over it again and see how it can be made better.

I think you're right about the diaspora part. I think that just comes down to me being confused about what diaspora meant. Thanks for pointing this out! Maybe it should instead simply be "and displace the Turkish Cypriots" (or natives)? That would easily solve this issue. This certainly could be made more precise and to the point.

But on "Recognised only by Turkey" being turned into "Internationally recognised only by Turkey". I think Khirurg being under the wrong impression here regarding Turkey's involvement is testament to one of the problems here i.e. 1. you're calling Turkey a "perpetrator", 2. you seem to believe Turkey founded the TRNC, and 3. you seem to believe Turkey is responsible (with a blank cheque); on all accounts, you're presenting your own opinion here, not fact, which is based on another opinion i.e. the official discourse of the Greek Cypriots, which is evidenced as denialist and incorrect, to say the least, i.e. also not factual not neutral i.e. why your opinion is reciprocating, and why it is not right to include here. It's just not a balanced argument. Putting that aside, some things do need to be clarified. Turkey recognises the TRNC. Turkey and the TRNC do not recognise the Republic of Cyprus. The Republic of Cyprus, and by that effect everyone else who supports them, does not recognise the TRNC. Support for the Republic of Cyprus is based on political expediency, not on a factual account of events and definitely not by what is right. Those are the recognised facts. Which even the most bonafide Greek Cypriot or Greek Cypriot sympathiser who knows more than just what they want to believe would concede. Both states have limited recognition. That's just how it is. Any good source be it primary or secondary would turn up the same concession.

Eight years after this, after espousing human rights and a desire to live side-by-side with the Greek Cypriots, and citing the legitimacy granted to the Greek Cypriot government by the international community is, like I also mentioned in the above talk section: "Expanded to include a more robust description of events, where applicable. Changed suggestive and manipulative language i.e. subtle POV pushing, by including said events" and like I also explained in relative detail to Dr.K. on the following edit, simply a factual account of events, not an opinion, not misleading, not an advocacy, but a fact, an account of exactly what happened as it happened, pure and simple. Refer to the above mentioned talk section for more information.

Also, you're referring to the TRNC as a "statelet", which is also incorrect. "espousing human rights" is also exactly what they did. Your opinion on whether it "is to ignore the human right violations this state has committed by declaring proclamation on territories that belonged to their rightful owners", is also simply as I said, based on your opinion i.e. the "opinion" (notice the use of so-called quotation marks here) of denialist incorrect pro-Greek Cypriot and anti-Turkish Cypriot official discourse, propaganda and rhetoric i.e. you're just pushing an unbalanced opinion here. I imagine if such assumptions went into your assessment of my edit, that they are just as assertive and POV pushing. You might be trying to push a POV here or it might be unintended, but it's even less credible than the neutral account of facts you equally seem to disagree with.

In Cyprus, the human rights (and particularly the housing/property rights) of the Cypriots, and especially of TURKISH CYPRIOTS, to clarify things for you, have been violated en masses, don't push your own POV or try to discount that, and the sentence which says "Northern Cyprus espousing human rights" is again, beyond lending a factual account to that which was actually espoused, is not an opinion, it is a fact. The same goes to you: Wikipedia, per WP:TRUTH, accepts only facts. Not editorial opinions.

Are there any other issues we could try and fix with my edits? If there are any more problems with this edit i.e. like how I misused "diaspora", please let me know. I'm still going through things and seeing how they can be improved.

In the meantime, I'm yet to see anything else here in this feedback other than baseless or emotional opinions. Apart from the very good suggestion that certain things may be less careless and better worded, the edits are about as POV etc as per your claim as my foot is a wet carrot. Nargothronde (talk) 01:41, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

You may very well disagree with how the international community views the issue of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyrpus, you may disagree with the hard-worked content of the article which is result of WP:Consensus, and you may want to promote your own POV about the Cyprus issue, you may very well disagree with others here, but that doesn't mean your POV-ridden edits can be accepted just because you believe them to be right. The Turkish position on the Cyprus issue has been covered already, as well as the Greek and the International community's positions, not only here but also in a number of articles related to this subject, and the readers can make their own conclusions about the Cyprus issue. Anything else, like re-writing/changing the content to fit a particular POV, be it Turkish or Greek POV, will find me totally opposed. To portray the Turkish side in a certain way (such as Turkey being the saviors and the TRNC being a bastion of human rights) is a blatant case of Turkish POV which is no better in my opinion than those past Greek POV attempts (which tried to shake off the Military Junta of its responsibilities and the atrocities of nationalists against Turkish Cypriots). Sorry. If you want to help improve the article in a neutral way, you are welcome. If all what you intend to do is to insert pro-Turkish POV, then your edits will be reverted. For me, here there is nothing to discuss other than making clear that I am opposing these POV changes to the article. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 07:55, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

I don't think this is going anywhere per tl;dr but we don't really call it Turkish POV or Greek POV - if anything we make sure to specify that it is the "Turkish government POV". Otherwise, it makes it sound like all Turks or all Greeks have the same POV, which they don't.Seraphim System ^(talk) 08:11, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 You are clearly misinformed, and I see this is going no-where. I will take leave to find the best way to go forward, otherwise I'm not going to bang my head against a brick wall trying to convince headstrong gatekeepers of selective disinformation. Seraphim System, I agree this shouldn't be bloated and sides shouldn't be taken, but your assumption that what I've described is "Turkish government POV" is testament to the type of ignorance to the facts and misinformation going around, and that is why this needs to change. Until Greek Cypriots, their sympathisers, and those who try to sit-on-the-fence and not take sides, come to terms with the appalling behaviour of the Greeks and Greek Cypriot community towards Turkish Cypriots, and stop trying to pretend that blame goes equally to both sides, or that they can blame Turkey or its intervention for anything that has happened, there will be no reconciliation on Cyprus, and everyone will continue reading blatant lies that are nothing but pure inhuman denial and historical negationism. It’s that simple. There’s no point wasting time by entertaining these misconceptions. Again, my editing could do with a bit of refining, so I'll work on it, but I stand by my assertions that this constant pro-Greek/Greek Cypriot POV pushing and anti-Turkish/Turkish Cypriot POV pushing needs to stop! Nargothronde (talk) 08:16, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 May 2019

There is not any country called as "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus". There is only an illegally occupied area in Cyprus. Cyprus has a single entity, it is a country of European Union and nothing else exist. The page should be deleted immediately. 90.223.203.193 (talk) 15:25, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: If you want to delete the article, you can nominate it yourself at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion. However, I can assure you that it won't be deleted, because the subject meets Wikipedia's criteria for notability. Whether it is a "country" or an "illegally occupied area", Wikipedia will still have an article about it. If you want to make changes within the article, you must say exactly what you want to change it from and to. Thanks. --IamNotU (talk) 16:29, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Well said IamNotU.Cinadon36 (talk) 17:20, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 July 2019

A coup d'état in 1974, performed as part of an attempt to annex the island to Greece, prompted the Turkish invasion of Cyprus. This resulted in the eviction of much of the north's Greek Cypriot population, the flight of Turkish Cypriots from the south, and the partitioning of the island, leading to a unilateral declaration of independence by the north in 1983. Due to its lack of recognition, Northern Cyprus is heavily dependent on Turkey for economic, political and military support.[4][5][6] 98.199.133.226 (talk) 01:09, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DannyS712 (talk) 19:54, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 October 2019

Northern Cyprus, is not 'officially' referred to as the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus This has never been ratified by anybody except Turkey. 'Officially' implies official or 'universal' approval or recognition of something. Northern Cyprus is indeed a de facto 'state', but it has never been and is not 'officially' referred to as the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. This is the problem you see. This is misinformation, and it's wrong. Could you kindly correct 'officially' to 'unofficially' which is exactly what it is. Otherwise the UN and the rest of the world would officially have referred to it as 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus', but they do not. 110.32.87.40 (talk) 09:14, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 13:03, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Spelling Error Edit Request

The Karpas Peninsula is spelled Karpass. The extra s is not correct as far as I can tell. 12.203.58.10 (talk) 16:59, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

artspectre2019 TRNC art exhibition

an art events organizer in north Cyprus founded in 2019 December their website is https://artspectre2019.weebly.com/#website link — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.182.107.216 (talk) 11:26, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Population of Northern Cyprus

Population of Northern Cyprus is 374,299 as of 26.03.2019 according to Northern Cyprus Ministry of Interior, Population Registry Bureau statistic. . I cannot edit the current population figure due to restriction.Fullscaledx (talk) 10:01, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Products of Northern Cyprus

WTO statistically counts products from Northern Cyprus as products from Turkey. Fullscaledx (talk) 12:14, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Usage of Turkey's codes by the Aviation of Northern Cyprus

Ercan International Airport in the transportation system of Northern Cyprus uses an internal Turkish code for ICAO and IATA registers. Fullscaledx (talk) 12:39, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

State

I deleted change by user Beshogur, which can be considered a lush imagination or at least as original research. This is a very controversial and disputed, change made without discussion or consensus.

Also, I am reporting a similar issue to the discussion. Term of "de facto state" in intro of the article is very disputed. I think it breaks some Wikipedia rules:

• Wikipedia:Verifiability - there is a lack of reliable sources recognizing Northern Cyprus as "state" or "de facto state". Sources must be accurate, reliable, supported by inline citations!
• Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not
• Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and Wikipedia:No original research - version of separatists and Turks is shown in the intro as the main first sentence, why? Northern Cyprus is officially part of the Republic of Cyprus, all countries of the world (except Turkey) do not recognize Northern Cyprus as state separate from Republic of Cyprus. This is should be the main first sentence, and text of "de facto state that comprises the northeastern portion of the island of Cyprus. Recognised only by Turkey" is additional information only.

Please note that Wikipedia:Core content policies are permanent and not subject to discussion! Even if there is a consensus in talk page for "Northern Cyprus is superpower", "Northern Cyprus is state" or "Northern Cyprus is continent", consensus must comply with Wikipedia's rules, if it fails, the consensus is not valid. So. Please provide reliable and neutral (not associated with the Turkish or separatist movement) sources with quotes (WP:INCITE), per Wikipedia:Verifiability for text of "state" or "de facto state". Quotes in sources must be specific, descibe Northern Cyprus as "state" or "de facto state", they cannot be quotes like "theoretically Northern Cyprus works like a state" or similar, because such a quote is not compatible with rules of the Wikipedia - users cannot interpret the facts at their discretion ("theoretically Northern Cyprus works like a state" is not synonymous of the word "is state"). Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 23:39, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Northern Cyprus is one of the more well-known de facto states. There are books on this topic. If you are genuinely interested, it might be better to look yourself than have other editors pull randomly from the first page of google results. CMD (talk) 02:29, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

@Subtropical-man: before removing it, check the article I linked. De facto sovereignity exist, you don't have to be recognised by any other country for that. Also please check out the other de facto states, only removing this is nothing but POV pushing. From the article Sovereign state:

According to the declarative theory of statehood, a sovereign state can exist without being recognised by other sovereign states.

Nothing left to discuss. Have a good day. Beshogur (talk) 10:46, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

"End of" and "I have spoken" have no currency here, so neither does "Nothing left to discuss". Britmax (talk) 11:14, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

What should be discussed? The difference between the terms sovereign and independent? I linked a source, why did you remove it? Beshogur (talk) 11:20, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

References

"What should be discussed? The difference between the terms sovereign and independent?" Yes, and a direct reliable source describing Northern Cyprus as a sovereign state, without the use of inference. Anything less will not survive the argument you are about to bring down on your head. Britmax (talk) 11:44, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Beshogur, that's the problem. Your opinion is your own interpretation. You wrote: "According to the declarative theory of statehood, a sovereign state can exist without being recognised by other sovereign states." - this is not argument. Sealand - the oil rig meets these requirements, so? Wikipedia users are to rely on sources, not interpret them themselves. If Northern Cyprus meets the requirements of the sentence of "According to the declarative theory of statehood, a sovereign state can exist without being recognised by other sovereign states.", does not mean that the user has the right to write "is state" to article. There must be sources that say it is a state. The second problem is that you provide links, just links. It is not enough. There are many sources about Northern Cyprus, but you must provide reliable and neutral (not associated with the Turkish or separatist movement) sources with quotes (WP:INCITE), per Wikipedia:Verifiability for text of "state" or "de facto state". Quotes in sources must be specific, descibe Northern Cyprus as "state" or "de facto state", they cannot be quotes like "theoretically Northern Cyprus works like a state" or similar, because such a quote is not compatible with rules of the Wikipedia - users cannot interpret the facts at their discretion ("theoretically Northern Cyprus works like a state" is not synonymous of the word "is state"). Please add quotes saying it's a country/sovereign state. Citations type of "Northern Cyprus works like a state" or similar do not meet the requirements of Wikipedia:Verifiability to sentence in article.

Now, there is a sentence not supported by sources, without exact references and quotes per WP:INCITE:

Northern Cyprus is a de facto state that comprises the northeastern portion of the island of Cyprus. Recognised only by Turkey, Northern Cyprus is considered by the international community to be part of the Republic of Cyprus.

According to the sources provided, it should be:

Northern Cyprus is northeastern portion of the island of Cyprus, operating de facto as a state, recognised only by Turkey or similar. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 11:53, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Quite bad comparison. Sealand and other micronations doesn't meet that requirements. Beshogur (talk) 12:21, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Has something changed internationally? No - The artice has been stable for many years with that very opening statement: "is a de facto state that comprises the northeastern portion of the island of Cyprus" WP:STABLE covers this to some extent, as does Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution#Follow_the_normal_protocol

This article has been the subject of MANY MANY MANY disagreements and arguments, flaming and disruption, edit changes and edit warring for many years.

I am sure we all know why. We editors have debated this subject at length, over and over and over and over in the many years I have been an editor on Wiki.

The fact of the matter is this. Someone thinks that it IS a recognised sovereign state (or that it SHOULD be), someone else thinks it is wrong saying it is a sovereign state when it has no right to claim that.

The arguments then follow, and we end up right back here again. You can read some of them here

It's quite simple: is it a de facto state, or is it an independent/sovereign state?

Let's look. Sovereign state = "sovereignty is a substantive term designating supreme legitimate authority over some polity" - so, we need to establish "supreme", "legitimate" and "authority".

Is there "supreme legitimate authority" - No. The invasion happened, that is a fact, it is a seperate entity (state) to Turkey and Cyprus, that is a fact as it is known as the TRNC, and no one has reversed it - also a fact. It is not recognised as lawful by anyone other than Turkey.

Therefore we can say it is a de facto entity, self controlled (state) that is only recognised by Turkey, who invaded the island and refused to give up their illegally assimilated land.

So, now we can see that the statement is correct, it is a de facto state, not a sovereign state.

There will never be consensus for the change to "sovereign" until it becomes a sovereign state.

Simples Chaosdruid (talk) 12:37, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

This conversation is quickly steering into WP:OR territory. That said, I don't see how adding the word "sovereign" to the lead does much to improve the sentence, and most sources don't see the need to add it either even when using it as a shorthand for "sovereign state". The stable version of the lead sentence is accurate and in line with many sources, and there is a reasonably sized and sourced "International status and foreign relations" section in the main article. CMD (talk) 12:55, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

I support CMD's argument. I've restored Beshogur's citation for it being a "de facto state" (but not the word "sovereign"). This is not really controversial in the mainstream, and there are a huge number of sources available. De facto state means that it's not actually a recognized state, but for all intents and purposes is one. The government of Cyprus has lost control of the territory, and Northern Cyprus exercises all the power of a state, with a functioning elected government that passes laws, etc. There are perhaps a few sources that use the term "de facto sovereign state", but it's uncommon. Many would consider that a contradiction in terms. The version without "sovereign" was stable for a long time, I think it's best to stick with that. --IamNotU (talk) 14:46, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Either add it or remove it from all de facto states. That's my opinion. Can you please check others? Beshogur (talk) 15:03, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

The various states with limited recognition are all in different situations, so not all will be the same. However, the current formulation used here is similar to that used in most others, and they don't include the word sovereign. Personally I dislike using "de facto" as it's easily mis-interpretable jargon (and imbued with more meaning than it really has), but it is serviceable, accurate, and present in sources. CMD (talk) 16:07, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

External links cleanup

@Derek R Bullamore: you added the tag back in 2014. Since no one has done anything about it, I suggest you work on it. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 00:06, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 August 2020

Permission to add more paragraphs to some sections Dracopoetic (talk) 12:34, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:12, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Who is president?

I'm new to the "extended protected" situation, but I'd just like to note that the caption under Ersin Tatar's photo calls him the president of Northern Cyprus, while the article says the current president is Mustafa Akıncı. Lobosolo (talk) 18:15, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

 Done It is Ersin Tatar. There is currently no PM, because of Ersin Tatar being former PM. Beshogur (talk) 18:18, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request

Update prime minister to Ersan Saner please https://www.trthaber.com/haber/gundem/kktcde-yeni-hukumet-kuruldu-537283.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.105.81.121 (talk • contribs) 22:43, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

 Already done – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:08, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 January 2021

I think that in the section on the military, in the first paragraph, it needs to be noted that "the constitution of the Republic of Cyprus provided for a bi-communal army (i.e. Greek and Turkish Cypriot) on a 60/40 per cent basis. The Cyprus army composed by both main Cypriot ethnic groups was created in 1960 yet last only up to 1964. Since then, both communities have maintained their independent armed forces. This is discussed on page 24 of this book: Efthymiou S.A. (2019) Nationalism, Militarism and Masculinity After the Construction of the Border. In: Nationalism, Militarism and Masculinity in Post-Conflict Cyprus. Palgrave Macmillan, Cham. https://doi.org/10.1007/978-3-030-14702-0_2 Yates Fisherman (talk) 15:46, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi Yates Fisherman, thank you for your suggestion. This is historical information that doesn't really fit with the rest of the section. Have you considered adding it to more focused articles, such as Cypriot National Guard or Security Forces Command? CMD (talk) 16:46, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Edit request

Could we add this under religion section? 2006 World Values Survey has a lot of reliable data for religion and religiosity in TRNC Gogolplex (talk) 10:05, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

“Turkish Cypriot community has been described as one of the most secular communities in the Muslim world. According to 2006 World Values Survey study that examined global moral and religious values among different nations and communities, 75% of the surveyed Turkish Cypriots declared that they found God to be very important in their daily lives, compared to the Greek Cypriot score of 91%. Religious rituals and observences such as visiting a mosque or church were also found to be rare in Turkish Cypriot community compared to surveyed Greek Cypriots.”

References

Edit Request for Population

The head of the Statistics Office of TRNC declared that the population of TRNC was 382.230 as of 2019. I believe the current population figure should be updated according to this. https://www.takvim.com.tr/guncel/2021/01/06/son-dakika-kktc-nufusu-kac-2021 https://www.yenicaggazetesi.com.tr/kktcnin-nufusu-aciklandi-326782h.htm https://www.sozcu.com.tr/2021/dunya/kktcnin-nufusu-aciklandi-382-bin-230-6200305/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Konyevi (talk • contribs) 16:00, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of "Template:Largest cities of Northern Cyprus"

Template:Largest cities of Northern Cyprus has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 11:26, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Population

The population of Northern Cyprus by the end of 2019 is 382,230, according to the State Planning Organization of Northern Cyprus: https://www.devplan.org/Eco-sos/Book/SEG-2019.pdf (page 9). Can someone with enough privilege change the figure in the article.88.227.219.0 (talk) 14:19, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Capital of the TRNC is North Nicosia

Hello there is a small error in the infobox the official capital of TRNC is North Nicosia please fix it.93.182.106.36 (talk) 12:46, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done The KKTC Constitution affirms that is Nicosia. Alex2006 (talk) 15:33, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

No mention of important things

Turkey is one of the guarantor states of Cyprus Republic. So Cyprus Republic is not an independent state. It became an EU member with admission of Turkey.

Akritas Plan: Orthodox population attempted to a systematic "ethnic cleansing" against Turks. "Leaving no Turk in the island in 24 hours."

EOKA: An illegal terrorist organization set up against Turks.

These are some of the important things not mentioned in the article. 46.154.44.252 (talk) 16:56, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

If you can cite some reliable sources your information will be assessed for inclusion. Britmax (talk) 17:35, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

There you go Britmax:

1960 Cyprus Treaty of Guarantee,

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Guarantee_(1960)

https://peacemaker.un.org/cyprus-greece-turkey-guarantee60

As you can see Republic of Cyprus founded with this treaty of guarantee. As a dependent republic it cannot have a military, airforce, etc.

This republic was founded for two groups, Hellenic Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots under guarantee. However systematic ethnical cleansing attempts lead to the events.

Akritas Plan:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akritas_plan

It is an "impractical plan that got more attention than it deserved" but the intentions about cleansing the island from the Turks were real. (Maybe still alive in the 21st century)

There is a problem named Anti-turkism or Anti-Turkish sentiment.

https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Turkism

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Turkish_sentiment

https://www.populismstudies.org/Vocabulary/turkophobia/

Wikipedia articles should be objective. They should not be used for "political agendas". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.88.99.62 (talk) 05:20, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Recognition?

I would say the way people refer to the occupation in terms of what they say it is, being a state with government, society etc., and the way the world has tolerated it, unlike for example when Iraq invaded Kuwait and the world immediately went to war against Iraq, that the world does actually definately recognise it, even if they pretend they don't. And wasn't there someone like Iran or some country that said they do recognise it? Middle More Rider (talk) 13:31, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

What's your point? Beshogur (talk) 14:54, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

I think they are saying that the world's administrations, while not officially recognising Northern Cyprus, only pretend not to do so, having recognised it in some sort of "real" way. They feel that we should follow this, rather than the official policy on recognition. I think that's what they mean. Which, of course, well, no. Britmax (talk) 15:01, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

@Britmax: not sure what he means, maybe saying that the world actually "recognize" by not declaring war on Turkey? That's not the case. TRNC may have diplomatic talks with France and UK for example, but that's not a recognition at all. recognition happens if two countries agree to send an envoy to their country @Middle More Rider:. Staying silent isn't a recognition. Beshogur (talk) 15:08, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

It would be informative if the article mentioned how the world sees occupied Cyprus, officially and in reality, maybe in comparison to other events, e.g. as mentioned, Kuwait. I will personally never recognise it. How long should occupations exist before they become recognitions? Did the world leaders get together and say from a certain date we will recognise the occupation of Australia as a British colony, the occupation of America as a British colony, the occupation of Anatolia as a country called Turkey. On occupied Cyprus I would not be surprised if it eventually becomes recognised. Middle More Rider (talk) 15:32, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

"How long should occupations exist before they become recognitions?" For the purpose of altering any articles on here, we wait until such recognition has been announced and reported in reliable sources. If this never happens, then we will never be able to say it has. Britmax (talk) 17:19, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Cyprus was soil of Ottoman Empire up until 1914. With advent of WW1 Britain seized or invaded the island. With the Treaty of Lousanne (1923) Turkey officially recognized the seizure. After WW2 (1950s) British Colonies got thir chance for independence since Britain was weakened with the war. Events in the island started in the 1950s. Turks always wanted the division (Taksim),Orthodox population wanted all island without any other ethical group. Britain resisted until 1960 and with the UN Treaty of Guarantee (1960) Republic of Cyprus was formed. Turkey, Britain and Greece were determined as guarantor states.(And still they are, they have military presence on the island)

So my friend, Turkey did not invaded Cyprus like Iraq did. They made a military operation to stop systematic ethnical cleansing against Turks.(And they actually stopped. More than 40 years there are no ethnical clashes on the island) They had and still have strong legal rights to do that. (clearly stated in the treaty)

Recognition is a political matter. It depends of politics and more importantly political conjuncture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.88.99.62 (talk) 05:32, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Māori translation

A Māori translation has been made of this page and needs to be linked: https://mi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haipara-ki-te-raki?venotify=created Thomas Norren (talk) 06:13, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

done Thomas Norren (talk) 21:55, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Population

The population of Northern Cyprus is 382,836 (2021 projection). https://www.aa.com.tr/tr/dunya/kktcnin-nufusu-382-bin-836-olarak-hesaplandi/2707690
https://www.kibrispostasi.com/c35-KIBRIS_HABERLERI/n441916-kktc-nufusu-yaklasik-391-bin
Source: TRNC Statistical Institution.78.164.55.11 (talk) 20:06, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

• Can someone with enough editing privilege update the population of Northern Cyprus as above?212.174.38.3 (talk) 10:31, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done Beshogur (talk) 11:38, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 October 2022

"Change 'football' to 'football (soccer)' to avoid causing confusion among North American English readers." Eric Hoogland (talk) 14:04, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

 Partly done: @Eric Hoogland: I have linked football to provide that level of clarity. —C.Fred (talk) 19:14, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Article issues and classification

The article fails the criteria, #1 states: The article is suitably referenced, with inline citations. It has reliable sources, and any important or controversial material which is likely to be challenged is cited., and #4, The article is reasonably well-written.

There are "unsourced statements" (May 2011, August 2012, January 2013, October 2015 ), as well as other issues. There are also potentially dated statements (2005 and 2015), spam cleanup (2014), Vague or ambiguous time (2022), needing updating (2015), and an "external links" cleanup tag from 2014. Reassess article to C-class.

External links

There were fourteen entries in the "External links" in two subsections. Three seems to be an acceptable number and of course, everyone has their favorite to add for four. The problem is that none is needed for article promotion.

• ELpoints #3) states: Links in the "External links" section should be kept to a minimum. A lack of external links or a small number of external links is not a reason to add external links.
• LINKFARM states: There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to the external links section of an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia. On articles about topics with many fansites, for example, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate.
• WP:ELMIN: Minimize the number of links. -- Otr500 (talk) 01:07, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
• WP:ELCITE ...and access dates are not appropriate in the external links section. Do not use {{cite web}} or other citation templates in the External links section. Citation templates are permitted in the Further reading section. -- Otr500 (talk) 18:00, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 March 2023

Add that it is a puppet state of Turkey Loganp23 (talk) 20:00, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

The dependence of TRNC on Turkey and the presence of Turkish forces there are already noted in the lede, so it's not clear what such a characterisation would add. Alaexis_¿question? 21:12, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 May 2023

Please change

Northern Cyprus (Turkish: Kuzey Kıbrıs), officially the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC; Turkish: Kuzey Kıbrıs Türk Cumhuriyeti, KKTC), is a de facto state that comprises the northeastern portion of the island of Cyprus. Recognised only by Turkey, Northern Cyprus is considered by the international community to be part of the Republic of Cyprus.

to

Northern Cyprus, officially the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC), is a de facto state in the north of the Cyprus island whose territory is internationally recognised as part of the Republic of Cyprus and is recognised as an independent entity solely by Turkey. 88.201.7.27 (talk) 23:00, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: No reason given to remove the Turkish translations. CMD (talk) 01:18, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 August 2023

Change: .. is a de facto state[6][7] that comprises the northeastern portion of the island of Cyprus.

To: Northen Cyprus is the Turkish occupied part of Cyprus, which proclaimed them self's as an independent state. Heavy Turkish military remains on the island. Source: https://www.state.gov/countries-areas/cyprus/ 46.199.28.54 (talk) 20:33, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done WP:NPOV.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 August 2023

Add coordinates:

 {{Coord|35|15|N|33|45|E|type:country|display=title}} 

Wiki-ircecho (talk) 09:23, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Done. --GGT (talk) 13:18, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

the official name

Τurkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (Turkish: Kuzey Kıbrıs Türk Cumhuriyeti, KKTC, pronounced Kuzey Kibris Türk Tzumhuriyeti) is the Turkish name for the northern part of the Republic of Cyprus, which has been under illegal Turkish occupation since 1974 in violation of International Law Right. Turkey declared these occupied territories a state, under the name: Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC) (in Turkish: Kuzey Kıbrıs Türk Cumhuriyeti), in violation of the United Nations Charter in 1983, splitting the Republic of Cyprus . This declaration was made nine years after the Turkish invasion of Cyprus on the occasion of the Greek Cypriot attempt to overthrow President Makarios and replace him with Nikolaos Samson, led by the Greek Junta of Colonels of Dimitrios Ioannidis |talk]]) 00:19, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 September 2023

The page refers to Norther Cyprus as an official state called the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC). This is a false statement and should not be allowed! You can refer to the offial list of members states of the United Nations here: https://www.un.org/en/about-us/member-states#gotoN

This is actually the Turkish occupied teritorries of the Republic of Cyprus which an actual country member of the united nations 109.110.227.118 (talk) 16:23, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

 Not done Unclear Request. Please put request in form like "please change X to Y". Article does not refer to Northern Cyprus as an "official state". WelpThatWorked (talk) 19:50, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

officially the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC)

please change officially the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus to unofficialy the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus Maritrela (talk) 20:26, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

I would agree that the use of "officially" is inappropriate. Nobody other than Turkey recognises the TRNC. I would suggest that we need to reword it along these lines:

"Northern Cyprus comprises the northeastern portion of the island of Cyprus. It is recognised only by Turkey as the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC), while its territory is considered by the international community to be part of the Republic of Cyprus."

Nick Cooper (talk) 13:55, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

There is no higher body that regulates official names, they are determined by their relevant officials. It is at any rate an alternative name for the topic, not a different topic as that rewrite implies. CMD (talk) 01:56, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 January 2024

I need to make a small grammar correction. Greenslugie (talk) 21:11, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 23:26, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 January 2024

Change (Land area) unranked to 166th and (Population) Unranked to 104th Kirkukturk3 (talk) 19:00, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

I think it would cause quite a lot of mess since all other (smaller) countries would have to be re-ranked. Alaexis_¿question? 20:02, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 October 2023

This entry is misleading in its statement that the region is "officially the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus". It is an illegally occupied region unrecognised by any other state so to say official is incorrect. It could be stated that the Turkish state names it as such but otherwise it's simply Cyprus. 51.6.43.170 (talk) 16:54, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: The use of the word "officially" refers to its own official description of itself, unrelated to what other states recognise it as. This usage also occurs in the articles on Somaliland, Taiwan, and Abkhazia. Liu1126 (talk) 10:14, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

The term official is wrong then as it suggests that it has a name that used internationally which doesnt occur. 2A02:3030:6E0:A2F2:FC2B:8A43:1F92:CA81 (talk) 07:58, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

The Republic of Turkey recognizes the TRNC, and they're both, whatever ones POV may be, sovereign and self-governing countries so the term "international" can be applied. 2A02:1810:2582:6D00:7D34:9FF6:3C64:6C02 (talk) 20:39, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Jan 31 rv

@Beshogur, please explain ES: "randomly placed" in your rv. Thank you. TaBaZzz (talk) 21:48, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Taksim is already told in History section. You're jumping from Taksim ideology to coup d'etat which has nothing to do with eachother. Beshogur (talk) 23:24, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

The idea (Taksim) was realized (Turkish invasion), following the coup. The connection is clear. TaBaZzz (talk) 05:36, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

No it's not. You're comparing apples with pears. Beshogur (talk) 12:05, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Please explain the difference? TaBaZzz (talk) 15:40, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Cypriot coup d'etat is the reason to Turkish intervention, not Taksim. Taksim is not the cause. You're randomly placing this. That's it. Beshogur (talk) 22:36, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

No source say the only reason for the invasion is the coup. Multiple sources cover Taksim and the invasion together. TaBaZzz (talk) 08:24, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Nonsense. Even the article's lead starts with:

The Turkish invasion of Cyprus began on 20 July 1974 and progressed in two phases over the following month. Taking place upon a background of intercommunal violence between Greek and Turkish Cypriots, and in response to a Greek junta-sponsored Cypriot coup d'état five days earlier, it led to the Turkish capture and occupation of the northern part of the island.

The coup was ordered by the military junta in Greece and staged by the Cypriot National Guard in conjunction with EOKA B. It deposed the Cypriot president Archbishop Makarios III and installed Nikos Sampson. The aim of the coup was the union (enosis) of Cyprus with Greece, and the Hellenic Republic of Cyprus to be declared.

if you think otherwise, go edit there firt. But it's not true what you say. Beshogur (talk) 13:31, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

for the sake of consensus, I'll take your offer on this one. TaBaZzz (talk) 09:24, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

special:diff/1204925212 - so disappointing. TaBaZzz (talk) 12:06, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Disappointing what? It's the lede. There is a history section. You're simply POV pushing. You don't start a sentence like "Upon a background of" on wikipedia. Beshogur (talk) 16:26, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

You may have changed your mind, and it's you who brought the text. If anything, it's your POV. TaBaZzz (talk) 23:41, 8 February 2024 (UTC)