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Birthday

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He was born April 16 1985 and is 39 years old 152.117.98.31 (talk) 05:08, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:DOB. This needs a reliable source. Grayfell (talk) 05:11, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
https://www.facebook.com/share/ZMWny3N7g7XMp3T3/?mibextid=WC7FNe Although the name is a joke his birthday is real from the man himself 149.154.44.7 (talk) 16:36, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"known for his incorporation of anti-semitic, racist, and homophobic rants in his comedy routines"

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where is this even cited? --FMSky (talk) 21:48, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In the three sources cited at the end of that sentence. Fred Zepelin (talk) 21:50, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Could you give the exact quote please? --FMSky (talk) 21:51, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Sam Hyde is an American Alt-Right Comedian" +"and he has a fanbase that is known for favoring white nationalism and anti-Semitism."

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I'm sorry, but this is objectively a biased way of phrasing it. The "Sam Hyde is an American alt-right comedian" is I guess arguably more objective, but stating "he has a fanbase that is known for favoring white nationalism and anti-Semitism" is literally just somebody's opinion about his fans.

I've gone ahead and reverted my last edit, but since it's getting reverted, I figured I might as well explain myself. I much prefer to state "His transgressive meta-ironic style has garnered significant public controversy, and has been linked with the alt-right due to his usage of antisemitic, homophonic, and racist jokes": as it doesn't state an opinion regarding his fanbase. Crockpure (talk) 11:50, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Summarizing reliable source is not "objectively biased". Even with reliable sources, "meta-ironic" is almost meaningless. Post-irony is used to intentionally muddy the waters between ironic and sincere, so your proposal is just a verbose, euphemistic way of saying he uses 'just joking' as a way to present his alt-right opinion. The use the term "homophonic" instead of homophobic makes me wonder if this isn't just an attempt at trolling. Grayfell (talk) 19:03, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"known for his incorporation of anti-semitic, racist, and homophobic rants in his comedy routines" <--where is this cited? --FMSky (talk) 19:39, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The cites are the end of that sentence. Fred Zepelin (talk) 20:01, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Fred Zepelin: Could you give the exact quote please? --FMSky (talk) 20:05, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, here's the exact quote in the lead: "Samuel Whitcomb Hyde is an American alt-right comedian known for his incorporation of anti-semitic, racist, and homophobic themes in his comedy". Fred Zepelin (talk) 20:12, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But what is the source for this statement? FMSky (talk) 20:13, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You need to go to the end of the statement, look at the citations, and read them. I'm not here to do your homework for you. If you want to whitewash Hyde's article and cleanse it of the reasons he's covered by reliable sources, you'll have to do better than this. Fred Zepelin (talk) 20:18, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but that is the problem. I read all 3 sources but couldn't find anything that supports this statement. Maybe someone else can help me out --FMSky (talk) 20:25, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It seems unlikely that anyone can "help you out", if you've actually read every source in this article, and you still believe that sources do not refer to Hyde's comedy as anti-Semitic, or racist, or homophobic. Fred Zepelin (talk) 20:32, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I looked at these sources earlier and also could not see where that statement was coming from. I expect Fred Zepelin is alluding to this statement As much as Hyde has used his position as a comedian to pass off his racist and discriminatory comments as ironic, his actions speak for themselves. found at the end of [1]. But this is all quite problematic, because the lead statement says he is known for these things, and that is not what the source says. What it actually says about what he is known for is Sam Hyde, a comedian infamous for pandering to the alt-right. There seems to be editorialising going on here, and a growing pile of citations in the lead are suggestive of WP:CITECONFLICT. In any case WP:BLPRESTORE applies. A good faith objection to that statement with that phrasing has been raised and so now it should be left out until a consensus has formed. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 20:37, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Adding to that, Paste Magazine should not be used for the reason stated in this edit summary 1 (I assume Fred Zepelin simply oversaw it) --FMSky (talk) 20:41, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Paste Magazine is a perfectly acceptable source for what it's used for here. I've also added the quotes from the sources that explicitly lay out what supports the article text. Fred Zepelin (talk) 21:07, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think stating that Sam Hyde is an alt-right comedian could be appropriate, but it'd need to be supported by an article in which Hyde makes any claims about his political opinions in an unironic manner. As far as I'm aware, such an article doesn't exist and the majority of the things he's said involving politics seem to be done in a meta-ironic manner.
TL;DR: I could see the first part going either way, but I personally don't think stating it has "links to the alt right" is more appropriate given Hyde's comedic style of intense meta-irony.
I stand by my claim that lumping all his fans together as antisemitic white nationalists is a vast overgeneralization, and articles claiming such are largely editorialized. On this topic, Hyde's ban from YouTube, Twitch, etc... is not covered in the article, and I feel like discussion of this is probably warranted should an appropriate source be found. Crockpure (talk) 23:51, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • but I personally think stating it has "links to the alt right" is more appropriate given Hyde's comedic style of intense meta-irony.
apologies for the typo Crockpure (talk) 23:53, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think a demand for an un-ironic comment is a red herring. We will describe him as sources describe him, and the lead should summarise the main text. But on that, this article is full of WP:PROSELINE. It needs work to convert that to coherent prose that adheres to neutral point of view and adequately describes him, as well as his views and their reception. When that is achieved, a new lead (without the need for strings of citations) would be possible. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:37, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies for the misspelling. It's not an attempt at trolling. Crockpure (talk) 23:40, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Racist Signs at Yale

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Should the stuff about the racist signs Sam Hyde brought to Yale be included in the article? There seems to be a lot of confusion about why exactly Sam Hyde is called Alt-Right by so many news outlets so I think some specific examples might clear things up.

Apparently, "The signs had messages on the front side that said "All Lives Matter" and "No More Dead Black Children."

But the back side of the signs had messages that referred to black criminality, violence, and rape."

Buzzfeed News also mentions Sam Hyde and fellow MDE member Charls Carroll carrying the signs.

Messages about "black criminality, violence, and rape" seem noteworthy enough to put in the article to me. Let me know what you think.

And here are two more articles talking about the signs. PippaFan31 (talk) 22:49, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think this article needs a bit of a rewrite, but I am somewhat daunted by the task as I don't have all the information to hand. But if you read it as it is now, it is an excellent example of what is wrong with WP:PROSELINE. Instead of telling us what Sam Hyde is, we have a series of paragraph after paragraph of the things he has done. What you suggest adding could be useful, but definitely not if it is going to be added in the form of "In 2015 Sam Hyde..."
Having read some secondary sources about Hyde, I was informed about Hyde in a manner that this article fails. Those sources were generally hostile, but they suggest he is known for his trolling humour. They also suggest that he himself instigated or furthered the Same Hyde is the shooter thing. The signs you mention would be an example of this trolling. So we start with the secondary sources, and say something about his approach to humour and political comment, and then this could be an example.
It's a tricky one. Trolling humour is supposed to cause a reaction and allow those who see the trolling for what it is to be in on the joke. Outrageous claims are thus made in the name of humour. But are those who are "in on the joke" actually just complicit in the propagation of outrageous claims under cover of humour? Some sources will discuss this, and that discussion (rather than our own thoughts) should find its way into the presentation of who he is, and what he does. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:16, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The lead - Hyde being described as incorporating racist, anti-Semitic and homophobic themes in his comedy.

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The section title sums it up. There is ample sourcing that describes Hyde's comedy this way. A recent attempt to whitewash the lead was pure WP:OR. I don't see any sources that say "Hyde uses an exaggerated persona" or anything like that; nor do I see any reliable sourcing that says he's not using racist (or any of the other adjectives) themes in his comedy. It's all well and good to protect a person's reputation through BLP, but you can't use BLP to wipe out actual sourced statements that happen to support sentences that fans of the person don't like. The sources speak for themeselves. Fred Zepelin (talk) 18:23, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As no one has replied to this thread in 9 days, I assume no one has a a problem with my points here. Fred Zepelin (talk) 20:14, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
read section(s) above --FMSky (talk) 21:54, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. Per my comment on 4 October, 10:37, what is needed is a more coherent page (I mean, I literally cannot learn anything from all the PROSELINE on the page other than that people find him controversial). When that is done, a rewritten lead without novel information and a run of sources should be possible. Looking for sources, I have found the following. There are several books looking at aspects, with Sam Hyde is the shooter taking centre stage in some, whilst describing Hyde as a writer of MDE (Foreman et al, 2022:141). Others look at the trolling aspect. The critical look at how comedy is used by the alt right (Sienkiewicz & Marx, 2024) is potentially very good. The papers also look at this aspect, but I note that one (Sienkiewicz & Marx, 2021) is by the same authors as the book.
Books
  • Boatright, Robert G.; Shaffer, Timothy J.; Sobieraj, Sarah; Young, Dannagal Goldthwaite (18 February 2019). A Crisis of Civility?: Political Discourse and Its Discontents. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-351-05196-5.
  • Foreman, Gene; Biddle, Daniel R.; Lounsberry, Emilie; Jones, Richard G. (21 June 2022). The Ethical Journalist: Making Responsible Decisions in the Digital Age. John Wiley & Sons. ISBN 978-1-119-77747-2.
  • Marantz, Andrew (20 February 2020). Antisocial: How Online Extremists Broke America. Pan Macmillan. ISBN 978-1-5098-8250-2.
  • Sienkiewicz, Matt; Marx, Nick (26 March 2024). That's Not Funny: How the Right Makes Comedy Work for Them. Univ of California Press. ISBN 978-0-520-40296-6.
  • Webber, Julie A. (11 December 2018). The Joke Is on Us: Political Comedy in (Late) Neoliberal Times. Rowman & Littlefield. ISBN 978-1-4985-6985-9.
Papers
Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 22:30, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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