Talk:True Adventures

Be bold-ly merging three articles with little individual content, namely True Dungeon, True Dungeon Fantasy Tavern, and True Heroes GRuban 19:27, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Not a live-action role playing game

The website make it clear it is not a live action roleplaying game. it is a "true" roleplaying game. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.113.146.30 (talk • contribs) 12:33, September 13, 2006 (UTC)

Quoth Live action role-playing game, "A live action role-playing game (LARP or LRP) is a form of role-playing game where the participants perform some or all of the physical actions of the characters they are playing within a pre-determined space for a pre-determined span of time." That's a perfectly reasonable definition of LARPing. That seems to define True Dungeon quite nicely. The counterpoint to LARP isn't "true role-playing"; that term has no meaning. The counterpoints are table-top role-playing and maybe video game role-playing. True Dungeon is obviously neither. I've heard Jeff Martin claim that True Dungeon isn't a LARP. I believe this is the result of him not understanding what a LARP is. As True Dungeon was born out of increasingly elaborate props and eventually scenes for his tabletop game, I suspect the shift was so gradual that he didn't realized he crossed clearly into the LARPing realm. Could you link to the page on the website that you feel makes it clear? Some quick browsing and Googling failed to turn up a clear statement. Also, please sign your posts, it's as easy as putting "~~~~" at the end of your post. Alan De Smet | Talk 22:43, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Quoth Jeff Martin on the TD Forums, "TD has never been about LARPing...and never will be." (I'm not the above poster, but I knew I'd read that quote before. :) -- Parody 17:38, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I was going to leave it at that, but I thought I'd throw in an opinion. IMHO, while TD is Live Action it's not Role Playing. There's abstracted action sequence combat/trap disarming, memory tests, and community puzzle solving, but you don't talk to anything or otherwise act like you are actually playing a character. Most of the LARPs I've been in have been completely the other way, with only characters and talking and very little combat or puzzles. If TD is a LARP, then I'm LARPing when I walk up to the Cloud Kingdom Games booth and attempt to solve the riddle of the hour to get a banner for my badge. That just doesn't seem right to me. -- Parody 17:54, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Parody: Thanks for the link; it's definately a useful reference for this conversation. I think he's saying "we deemphasize the role-playing," which I agree with. Perhaps his goal is to discourage people who are interested in more role-playing heavy LARPs from playing for fear they would be dissatisfied. However, that's not enough to make something not-role-playing. I'm reminded of my experiences with the D&D Open: if you want to advance to later rounds you kept the role-playing to a minimum and focused on finding optimal solutions for the puzzles, traps, and battles.

I don't believe there is a useful definition of role-playing that includes relatively gamey D&D games while excluding True Dungeon. As soon as True Dungeon went beyond "here's a series of completely unexplained puzzles," it became a role-playing game. It's got a plotline that we're presumably supposed to have some interest in; otherwise why's it there? This year featured three NPCs (employer at start, demon mid-game, drow at end) you could interact with, not terribly deeply, but they were there. You are addressed by those NPCs are adventurers, not players. The Cloud Kingdom Games riddle game isn't a LARP: No NPCs, no plot, you don't have a character. When you answer the Cloud Kingdom Games riddle, you're Parody, talking to the CKG employee. When you answer the demon's riddle in this years True Dungeon, you're and unnamed warrior addressing a demon. Alan De Smet | Talk 23:01, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

My TD experience was in 2005, where there were no speaking characters in any of the rooms we (failed to) puzzle through. There TD was merely puzzles with RPG trappings, much like some D&D games (D20 especially) become very detailed miniatures games with RPG trappings and how video game RPGs aren't really RPGs at all. I think if you skim through Mr. Martin's posts, you'll find that he says similar things about what TD is supposed to be. (Main emphasis on puzzles, secondary on combat and other character and item abilities, no emphasis on role playing.)

In fact, here's another quote that the original poster might have been referring to: "Not a LARP, True Dungeon instead focuses on problem solving..." - From the True Dungeon Overview page on the TD website.

A game should at least have more role playing than, say, The Bard's Tale to really be considered as a role playing game. TD doesn't have that. The riddles may be presented in a fancier way by someone in a costume, but it's still just ask and wait for response. Your description puts it about on par with the puzzle presentation in Bard's Tale.

One last (somewhat pointless) observation: I find it funny that an average night in my World's Largest Dungeon campaign has more RPing than my TD run did, but only because my WLD players like to grouse in character. :) -- Parody 05:22, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The current article emphasizes that while True Dungeon is a LARP, there isn't much RP in it. Is that an acceptable solution? True Dungeon fits common definitions of role-playing games. It certainly does so better than computer role-playing games. It matches the level of role-playing found in many tabletop RPGs, include games also running at Gen Con. Any definition of role-playing that excludes True Dungeon is going to exclude D&D as it's played by many people. Any definition of role-playing that excludes lots of relatively mainstream D&D groups isn't a useful definition. Alan De Smet | Talk 20:56, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't beleive this page still says that true dungeon is a LARP. Anyone who knows the difference between a d20 from a d6 knows that True Dungeon is not a LARP. There is no acted out combat. There is no in person role play. There is no touching anything without asking first. You cannot move throught the feild of play on your own, you need permission from the DMs to move from room to room. The first sentence of this article is not only patently incorrect it is an embarrassment. How about this as a first sentence "True Dungeon is a Role Playing Game with props and scenery that focuses on group interaction to solve a sequence of puzzles in a mock dungeon envirionmet." The Definition "A live action role-playing game (LARP or LRP) is a form of role-playing game where the participants perform some or all of the physical actions of the characters they are playing within a pre-determined space for a pre-determined span of time." Does not at all bescribe True Dungeon as participants perform NO physical actions of the characters they are playing. The second half of the sentenc also does not apply as ALL games happen in a pre-determined space and most for a pre-determined span of time. True Dungeon is not a LARP. I am sorry if some people want it to be but it ISN'T.--Murphoid 02:17, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I've been playing and running LARPs for about ten years, and any sort of test for LARP-ness that True Dungeon fails is equally failed by many of the LARPs I've played. I play a lot of theatre-style games where there is frequently combat, but it's not acted out. The role-playing may suck, but it's present (last year's game featured interactions with the evil innkeeper at the beginning and the drow at the end). It's certainly more present than some of the tabletop D&D games I've played. (Besides, if the role-playing is absent, how can you describe it as an RPG?) I've played environment heavy games where the GMs insist on knowing what you're touching and when because complex effects require GM intervention. Access to areas within LARPs is frequently controlled by GMs. Players of True Dungeon certainly do perform the physical actions of their characters; that's the entire point. Of course it's heavily controlled by a GM, but to take last year's game as a example: players were expected to physically move through the glowing spiderweb; to use the hook, string, and crossbow to retrieve the keys; to weigh the eggs; to peer through the mask to see the ordering of the glowing letters on the wall. — Alan De Smet | Talk 02:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I too have played many a LARP. In the Vampire LARP combat and other conflicts are resolved by way of Rock Scissors Paper, so indeed not all LARPs act out combat. I am not really sure if I would consider interacting with the inkeeper and drow role playing as nothing you can say or do can alter what they are scripted to do. Now as for access to certain areas, I have NEVER played in a LARP where a GM restricts your movements into certain areas. I have NEVER played in a larp where one would say "My character picks up this object, what happens?" These things are what seperates a LARP from a RPG. Is a RPG that uses a prop like a mask automatically catagorized a LARP? No of course not. The web game, mask, and weighing the eggs were nothing that might not have been acted out in a PnP game. LARP and True Dungeon are two seperate activities. --Murphoid 03:15, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Debating freedom of movement or the need to interact with the GM and the like is pointless until we're working with a definition that specifies such things are part of what defines a LARP. Here's a definition from LARP: "A live action role-playing game (LARP or LRP) is a form of role-playing game where the participants perform some or all of the physical actions of the characters they are playing within a pre-determined space for a pre-determined span of time." Is that a good enough definition? If so, in which ways do you feel TD fails to match that definition? Is it not an RPG? An interesting interpretation, although one that would also define many games of D&D, Rifts, Twilight 2000, and other games as "not RPGs." Do the participants not perform some of the physical actions the characters do? Is it not within a pre-determined space and time span? Which parts of that definition does it fail? If you don't think that is a useful definition, can you offer another one and specify which parts of that definition TD fails to meet? (You might also want to update LARP, since in such a case its introduction is suboptimal.) — Alan De Smet | Talk 04:29, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Do the participants not perform some of the physical actions the characters do? No, they don't, not to the point that is above actions any RPG player might perform in any RPG. Just because I use a prop in an RPG does that RPG suddenly become a LARP? If I stand up during a PnP role playing session because my character does does that RPG suddenly become a LARP? Of course not. Is it not within a pre-determined space and time span? All games take place in a pre-detirmened time span. This part of the defintition is just silly. I get the feeling that you want True Dungeon to be considered a LARP. However, the game designers, players, and the gaming community clearly do not consider this a LARP. Further, not just some but nearly ALL of the written literature on True Dungeon points out it is not a LARP. What makes you feel that true dungeon IS a LARP? (P.S. I have no interest in re-writng anyones definition of a LARP. I just know that this clearly is NOT a LARP.) --Murphoid 06:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm just interested in applying the most accurate term possible. I believe LARP is the most accurate term. I think the definition in LARP is a good definition and I think TD maps well to it. The key part of the definition is "participants perform some or all of the physical actions of the characters they are playing." Sure, the slide from PnP to LARP is a continuum, but TD has a very high percentage of players performing physical actions of the characters they are playing, so I think it falls pretty squarely into the LARP side.

That the TD designers and players don't consider it to be a LARP is irrelevant. People frequently mislabel things, sometimes even their own creations. It can be accidental or intentional. (I'd provide examples, but the only examples that come to mind are intentional. Since I don't think the TD mislabelling is intentional, it would be unfair to drag those connotations in.) Look at what True Dungeon says, "Not a LARP, True Dungeon instead focuses on problem solving, teamwork and tactics while providing exciting sets and interactive props."[1]. That they think you can have a LARP or instead can have problem solving, teamwork, and tactics suggests a lack of familiarity with the wide variety of gameplay present in LARPs. That "ALL" the literature points out it's not a LARP mostly reflects TD's original insistance; other people are merely repeating what they've been told. Given the widespread misconceptions about LARPs (it's all about Vampire; it's all about boffer combat; it's something other people do, not me), it's not surprising that such an erroneously label would be popular.

So back to the definition, of course the participants perform some of the physical actions that the characters do. (All years are my best memory.) Players search the game space for tools, tie ropes to arrows, thread a hook onto the rope, jury rig a rough pulley, and use the resulting contraption to retrieve an out of reach basket (Room 1, 2006). They stick their hands in holes to find what is inside (Silent room in 2005, bardic rune labelled holes in 2005, Final room in 2004), open drawers (2003) and chests (Secret room, 2005). They fiddle with blocks and toss the blocks in a fountain to see what happens (Fountain room, 005?). They crawl through low tunnels (2003). They solve puzzle locks while hurrying to escape a wall about to crush them (2004). They search walls for secret doors (Floating orb room, 2004). They smell things to determine which is safe (Floating orb room, 2004). They have to hurry to grab a stick (wand) floating by in a small trough (2004?). They have to make a split second decision and either rush past a passage that is closing (2003?). They have to move cautiously across a grid, careful to spell out the month of their (the character's) birth (2003). They have to wave a staff over candles to light them in the correct order (EVIL room, 2006). They have to weigh the eggs in only 3 measures (egg room, 2006). I think we've more than a little past the GM handing a cool prop around the table, or a player standing up to give a cool speech. — Alan De Smet | Talk 16:39, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Citations needed

This poor article needs more citations. I tracked down a few and added them, but more is always better. Here's a few articles about True Dungeon I found that seem promising, but I couldn't find specific things worth using as citations. Perhaps other people will find something worth adding. Things with strikethrough have already been integrated into the article.

• http://www.gamegrene.com/node/473
• http://www.theladygamer.com/Marinda200503.html
• http://www.byov.com/Gencon2004.html
• http://www.gamingreport.com/search.php?query=&topic=146 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alan De Smet (talk • contribs) 04:30, 8 May 2007 (UTC).
• Sjöberg, Lore (2008-08-13). "True Dungeon Lures Would-Be Dragon Slayers". Wired. CondéNet, Inc. Archived from the original on 2008-08-18. Retrieved 2008-08-18.

Here's another recent one:

• http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/2008/08/gencon_walkup

Ryan Paddy (talk) 05:28, 15 August 2008 (UTC)