Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alban Bunjaku (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. slakr^\ talk / 09:40, 20 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Alban Bunjaku

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Speedy deletion per WP:G4 was declined by a user who appears to have registered an account for that express purpose on the grounds that he has played for the Kosovo national football team. This does not confer notability. WP:NSPORT only to those footballers who have played for their national team in a FIFA sanctioned international match. Since the Kosovo FA is not a member of FIFA, this does not apply here. Sir Sputnik (talk) 21:48, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Sir Sputnik (talk) 21:49, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - fails WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL. Giant Snowman 22:08, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - satisfies WP:NFOOTBALL. FIFA, although it doesn't include Kosovo within its members, does recognize Kosovo matches, starting 2013. Link. The interpretation of the wikipolicy from the above users is arbitrary and illogical. --Bunjaktorollak (talk) 22:36, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There is a difference between allowing a match (as stipulated in the document you reference) and sanctioning or recognizing the match. For example, during the 2014 CONCACAF Women's Championship, FIFA allowed matches against Martinique, but does not recognize those matches as official because Martinique is not a FIFA member. Kosovo is not even a member of UEFA, so all matches against teams affiliated with the Football Federation of Kosovo are considered exhibition matches, not even friendlies. -- Jkudlick ^tc_s 13:22, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: I see no evidence the subject meets the GNG, beyond coverage debarred by WP:ROUTINE. Of course the subject doesn't satisfy NFOOTBALL; our task here is to set forth whether a subject meets a guideline or not, not to claim that the guideline means what we'd prefer it to mean. NFOOTBALL is plainly and explicitly written, and if you don't like its provisions, this isn't the venue for that discussion.
Beyond that, I just read that link with FIFA. They most certainly don't "recognize" Kosovo matches. They're just allowing teams to play exhibition matches against Kosovo, without sanction ... as long as no flags, national anthems or other national symbols are displayed, and that Serbia gets a veto for any matches played in Kosovo. That's not "recognition" by anyone's criteria. Ravenswing 22:47, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't say that FIFA recognized Kosovo. I said that it allows countries to play against Kosovo, which means that any country (including the world champions of Germany), can play Kosovo when they please, in other words, I said that FIFA recognizes Kosovo matches. FIFA doesn't need to recognize any federations, it may or may not include those federations within its members. That is not the case for Kosovo, however Kosovo's games are recognized by FIFA. So does eloratings.net, a reliable source, which lists all Kosovo matches, since that of 1993 against Albania. This boils down to your interpretation of the policy of WP:NFOOTY, and I happen to disagree. --Bunjaktorollak (talk) 22:57, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
NFOOTY is not an affirmative policy. It is instead a guideline by which we judge when players generally achieve notability. Meeting NFOOTY (or NSPORTS) does not automatically mean an athlete is notable, nor does failing to mean it automatically mean the athlete is not notable. The preponderance of sources is what ultimately determines notability, and at this point, this player appears to lack the kind of coverage we tend to look for. Reso lute 23:37, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, yeah, you can fail anybody for GNG, that's based on strength of arguments (and I happen to think he meets GNG, since we are not reading lots of sports magazines that are offline), but I didn't read any logical explanation on why he fails NFOOTY. --Bunjaktorollak (talk) 23:51, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If you think he meets the GNG, provide the cites. If you can't even tell us what offline, mass market sports magazines (and on what pages) discuss the subject in significant detail, then claims that he meets the GNG are wishful thinking. As far as FIFA goes, that letter's text is clear. There is a large difference between recognition and mere permission, and under onerous restrictions as well. Ravenswing 00:53, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I provided some and I'll look for more. For FIFA what recognition are talking about: matches or Kosovo Association of Football? Bunjaktorollak (talk) 02:39, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

FIFA recognition of matches (which requires FIFA recognition of both national federations) is the key here (as explicitly laid out in WP:NFOOTY). I will even go so far as to say that I would consider recognition of matches by a regional confederation (in this case, UEFA) in the case of nations who are not members of FIFA to help determine notability, but a single instance of meeting NFOOTY is akin to WP:BIO1E unless other notable circumstances exist (e.g. scoring the match-winning goal to secure a spot in the World Cup). — Jkudlick ^tc_s 12:07, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Kosovo plays what FIFA calls "tier 2" internationals. Most other representative teams that play tier 2 internationals are not notable, let alone the players who play for them. The only reason that

Delete per my comment above. Reso lute 23:37, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Kosovo-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:03, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:03, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:03, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:03, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Kosovo plays what FIFA calls "tier 2" matches (if their opponent is a member of FIFA). Many other representative teams that play in this structure are not notable, to say nothing of the players playing for them. The main reason this is being treated differently is the political status of Kosovo. This is neither a sporting, not a coverage consideration and should therefore have no bearing on notability. Sir Sputnik (talk) 07:37, 16 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete for not meeting WP:NFOOTY or WP:GNG. -- Jkudlick ^tc_s 13:22, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Has played in a senior international match for his country. Kosovo may not currently be a member or UEFA or FIFA but WP:FOOTY states "any FIFA sanctioned senior international match (including the Olympics) are notable". FIFA sanctioned Kosovo to play friendly international matches. IJA (talk) 21:16, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There are a number of stipulations involved, including no flags or anthems, no matches against nations which were part of Yugoslavia, and that "[c]lubs and representative teams of the FFK may not play official or qualification matches while the FFK is not a member of FIFA." (emphasis mine) Thus, while FIFA is allowing FFK to schedule matches against other nations, those matches are not sanctioned as official matches. The same is true with any nation who is not a member of FIFA - see my example above. Permission to compete on the international stage is a prerequisite to competing in sanctioned matches, but they are not synonymous. -- Jkudlick ^tc_s 21:44, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - I can see no difference between "approved" and "sanctioned". The dictionary definition of sanctioned says "give official permission or approval for". Therefore as he has played for Kosovo he has played a senior match for his country.--Egghead06 (talk) 07:27, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You include the operative word in the definition: official. FIFA are granting permission for teams from Kosovo to play teams from other nations (except the former Yugoslavia) without penalties to the other teams, but they will not regard the matches as official matches. If FIFA were actually sanctioning the matches, then those matches would have no restrictions as laid out in the memorandum. — Jkudlick ^tc_s 11:56, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like original research. Nowhere in that letter does it says "because there will be no flags or anthems, this means we don't sanction the games".--Egghead06 (talk) 13:53, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like you're unclear as to what the WP:OR policy actually stipulates. It does not -- and never has -- said that we're prohibited from drawing conclusions from documentary evidence. It stipulates that articles must not contain original research. This is not an article; it's an AfD discussion, and it's no more out of line for us to draw conclusions here than it is for us to look at a source and make a subjective judgment as to whether it meets SIGCOV. (And that being said, you're not thinking your own argument through. Nowhere in that letter does it contain the words "FIFA sanctions all matches against the Kosovo team." How do you figure that the letter can't be claiming that FIFA doesn't "sanction" matches when it doesn't state that it does?) Ravenswing 14:44, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Odd then that the memo (above) should be linked with the wording "FIFA sanctioned Kosovo to play friendly international matches" if FIFA doesn't sanction matches against Kosovo!!?? So I guess it does.... --Egghead06 (talk) 14:11, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally, FIFA has no record of the match against Turkey in which Bunjaku earned his first cap (21 May 2014). Why would FIFA maintain records of some friendlies and not others? The reason is that FIFA does not sanction matches if at least one federation involved is not a member of FIFA; those matches are not a part of any nation's official FIFA record and are not used in calculating the FIFA Ranking. Therefore, this match was not sanctioned by FIFA, and Bunjaku fails WP:NFOOTY. As he also fails WP:GNG due to only receiving routine media coverage, he is not yet notable. Perhaps in the future, but not presently. — Jkudlick ^tc_s 15:01, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Agreed with above. Coverage also comes close to if not exceeding ROUTINE which means GNG could be met.Cptnono (talk) 08:11, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

WP:ROUTINE coverage is not sufficient basis for a stand-alone article, and is certainly insufficient to meet GNG. His entire senior career consists of 10 appearances in a semi-pro league and one cap with the national team in a match not officially recognized by FIFA. Clearly fails WP:NFOOTY, and absence of significant coverage outside of routine match/transfer coverage also means this fails WP:GNG. — Jkudlick ^tc_s 11:56, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Has played for national team of an independent nation in FIFA-approved match. Nfitz (talk) 17:53, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - fails WP:NFOOTY, although these matches are sanctioned by FIFA, I do not believe that individuals in the FIFA member team playing receive an official cap, therefore the criteria agreed upon do not seem to be met. I am not convinced there is sufficient, based on one international appearance to satisfy GNG. Fenix down (talk) 11:25, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.