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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Athena Massey (2nd nomination)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. Seraphimblade Talk to me 06:19, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Athena Massey

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Athena Massey (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Since the last AFD in 2020, she's had no new roles, apart from a minor appearance in a documentary made this year, We Kill for Love, for which she gets passing mentions in the four Google News hits for her name. This version is substantially longer, having been padded out with a lot of highly promotional fan language, and still using IMDB for about a third of its sources. In a WP:BEFORE search, I can't find SIGCOV of her in reliable sources, just a lot of mentions in film and TV credits for minor roles, as you can see in the cites here, and a few interviews on podcasts and YouTube. Article mentions that she was featured twice in Femme Fatales (magazine), but as the WP article notes, " It was unique in that it encouraged contributions from the actresses themselves...", and I can't see that as counting substantially toward meeting WP:NACTOR. Wikishovel (talk) 08:49, 19 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Actors and filmmakers, Women, Television, Video games, and California. Wikishovel (talk) 08:49, 19 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: The "shusher" on Senfield is iconic, but it's not what we're looking for, notability-wise. Sources used are cast lists and press stories where she's listed as an actress in xyz production. Not meeting ACTOR. Oaktree b (talk) 14:23, 19 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: I wrote this article for the simple fact that I have been a fan of the subject for some time. I came to Wikipedia as the go-to platform for finding more information where she has been active and found a blank page. This was surprising to me because she was referenced several time on the platform on various films, shows, etc., along with other actors of her level that DID have active pages. So, I took it on myself to create one. I did see the previous deletion that said the citations were largely IMDB. So I went out of my way to use as many sources other than IMDB in my cites. If I was a fan looking for her on Wikipedia today, his is the exact type of page I would be looking for. To the comment that she hasn't been active is incorrect. As noted, she is active in the various interviews and appearances in connection to her various roles. For her fan base and others, this IS an informative article. Keith0603 (talk) 14:47, 19 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    While I have no opinion on whether or not this page it kept, I would like to point out that your argument for not deleting the article is WP:ILIKEIT, which is not a valid rationale for keeping it. DonaldD23 talk to me 02:18, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Fair point. I will try again and be more objective. The comment regarding the number of IMDB links is valid. My understanding was that I needed citations for everything in the article. In looking at other similar articles, I should have only had the citations back to a single page on IMDB (where applicable) and take off all the individual citations for each item in the lists. I would be more than happy to make those changes. That should address that concern and clean up the document. Keith0603 (talk) 21:24, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Seems to have had a few rather significant roles in notable films (Shadow of a Scream and her appearance in We Kill for Love does not seem really minor (or this , on that very film), for example, and some in TV shows. So all in all, she seems notable. Still, the page needs clean up (and is not a B-article in my view but I won't reassess it just now).-My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 20:30, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree with the assertion of "just a lot of mentions in film and TV credits for minor roles". While she did have many guest starring roles in popular shows at the time, she had top billing in several films. Additionally, Femme Fatales may have encouraged contributions, the interview I quoted was done by a journalist and was not self-submitted. Keith0603 (talk) 21:29, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I removed all of the external references except for IMDB. As an actor, I still feel this is valid, but removed the rest. Additionally, I went though and edited to be more "encyclopedic". I have only written one other published article, so please bear with me as I learn. I do feel that it reads better now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keith0603 (talk • contribs) 00:19, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have made various edits to address the issues that have been raised here. I'll try to list them here. COI - As mentioned, I am a fan of the subject but have no other connection, personal, professional or otherwise. I am not, have not, and will not be compensated for this article. All the information I gathered was via interviews in magazines or podcasts. I did notice I inadvertently deleted a citation during one of my edits that I have since restored. Since the COI tag doesn't mention what area is uncited, I don't know how else to fix. Tone/Peacock tag. I did edit and/or remove several places where I saw this. If there is any other specific areas I would be happy to fix. Notability tag. I believe this has been addressed in the discussions on this page already. Reliability - again, I'm not sure which sources this refers to. If it's IMDB, then I would call out that other actors use this successfully as a citation on other pages in Wikipedia. Again, since I've only previously published once, I appreciate your patience with making this process work. Keith0603 (talk) 00:05, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: We need to hear from more editors about this article. As an aside, User:Keith0603, you've probably commented enough now for others to understand your point of view on this article and the subject's notability.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 22:36, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:27, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete @BrigadierG I agree with you.--Correspondentman (talk) 08:52, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I dispute the comment that she has had no notable roles in multiple productions. She has starred in 5 Roger Corman productions, which included 4 films and one film that became a TV series. She also had a lead role in 3 Westwood Studios video games. Keith0603 (talk) 23:05, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • For reliable sources, would references to physical DVDs be better than IMDB? This seems to qualify as a secondary source and should be undeniable proof. The guidelines that I read here are a bit vague. I would be happy to provide if this is a more acceptable source. Keith0603 (talk) 23:09, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Unfortunately, the subject is still not notable enough for now. The above editor does not seem to have the usual signs of a paid editor (so I’m inclined to believe their claim that they are unrelated to the subject), so I would highly advise them to better familiarise themselves with the guidelines about reliable sources, and try to edit other articles first. Handmeanotherbagofthemchips (talk) 12:33, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Guilty as charged. I am a newbie having only published one other article. That article was not challenged for deletion, so I am new to this process. I do appreciate your patience with me. I hope this means we can remove the COI tag then. As advised, I did additional research on both reliable sources and notability. First notability as this seems to be the biggest sticking point here. For film notability, one of the stated criteria WP:NFOE can be "The film was featured as part of a documentary, program, or retrospective on the history of cinema". The recent documentary Massey appeared in, "We Kill For Love" satisfies this as 3 of her films that she had the lead role (Star Portal, Shadow of a Scream, and Undercover) and one series (Red Shoe Diaries) were covered. This documentary was featured in the 2023 Overlook Film Festival in 2023, which satisfies another criteria of "The film was given a commercial re-release, or screened in a festival, at least five years after initial release". With 3 of her films then satisfying the notable film criteria, it would follow that the notability of her as an actor is also satisfied with the following criteria "The person has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions" (Satisfies WP:NACTOR). Because this documentary received significant publicity, I was able to find a review in the New York Times of the film, and review in Forbes that specifically called out Massey as one of the "major stars of the era". I will be adding these citations to the page. This should also at least be a good start to satisfying the issue about reliable sources. Therefore, I would respectfully ask that deletion be reconsidered as I believe the criteria has been met. Thanks again for your patience working with a newbie.Keith0603 (talk) 23:33, 7 October 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keith0603 (talk • contribs) 22:36, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Passes criteria 1 of WP:NACTRESS. There appears to be plenty of WP:SIGCOV of her work to pass our notability requirements for actresses. See [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], etc. There are also a lot of snippet reviews of her films in books in google books. She clearly was a main cast member of multiple films and television shows. I'm concerned that the accusations of coi and the promotional tone of the article are distracting the voters above from viewing the topic through the lens of notability policy and actually following WP:BEFORE. She clearly passes WP:GNG.4meter4 (talk) 17:04, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, the "significant coverage" links given above are clear passing mentions, none give any actual information about Massey, just list her as having played a role. Fram (talk) 17:12, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I found this article.
Which has significant coverage of her role in Shadow of a Scream. SilverserenC 21:23, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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