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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. There is consensus that the sourcing brought forward during this AfD is enough to overcome WP:1E concerns. (non-admin closure) – Lord Bolingbroke (talk) 19:50, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thomas Fitzpatrick (pilot)

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Thomas Fitzpatrick (pilot) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Textbook WP:1E bio about a man who twice landed a plane on the streets of New York. I would love to salvage this but I don't know how as I cannot locate adequate sources.

In addition to notability, I have a serious problem as to crucial portions of this biography. One of the main sources is a death notice that may be about a different person. He has a common name, and the death notice does not say if he was responsible for the famous landing. That source states that he was a World War II veteran, which is hard to believe as he was born in 1930. The subject of this article may not even be dead. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 19:17, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've stricken out my reservations about the death notice as some of its contents, specifically the date of death, were adopted in a New York Times article. My concerns re WP:1E stand, however. An article on the incident, not the person, might be a solution. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 23:07, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 19:17, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Aviation-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 20:36, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 20:36, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New Jersey-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 20:36, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There's no question that it is a true story. The problem is that the person is noted only for that (WP:1E) as evidenced by an absence of sources on the person that would indicate if he is even alive or dead. The inadequate sourcing stating his death, a death notice not mentioning the incident, creates a serious BLP issue. Moving to St. Nicholas Avenue street landing or something like that is one possible solution, assuming the incident itself is worth an article, which I doubt. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 12:03, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, the article can be taken down to the studs of NYT and Snopes, and built from there. If you are a history buff, perhaps you know which non-newspaper history sites are legit. I think the incidents are notable, whether the article falls under Mr. Fitzpatrick's name or under a title that refers more to the landings. Caro7200 (talk) 14:18, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a bit dubious about the notability of the incident. But if it is notable, the sourcing is adequate for a short article and I am sure there is more contemporary news coverage. Let's hear other opinions on the notability of the incident (in addition to Mr. Fitzpatrick's notability, which is the subject of this AfD). I think Snopes is mainly useful in pointing to reliable sources. It debunks hoaxes and this is clearly not a hoax. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 19:24, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The incident is notable, he did it twice and was a decorate war hero, which should pass WP:1E, also he is no longer alive, this source says he lied about his age so the information appears to be accurate. Valoem talk contrib 22:45, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that we can report he is dead, though I'm not overjoyed that the Times source is that death notice. http://www.check-six.com/Crash_Sites/TommyFitz-Cessna140s-NYC.htm appears to be a self-published source I'd hate to rely upon it for a BLP Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 23:04, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Textbook example of an individual who was notable during his lifetime and whose notable exploits were recorded in obituaries after his death, an enduring legacy of his notability. Alansohn (talk) 04:04, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Four sources that provide substantial background about Thomas Fitzpatrick are:
      1. Kilgannon, Corey (2013-06-04). "Long Ago, a Pilot Landed on an Uptown Street. That's Where the Bar Was". The New York Times. Archived from the original on 2020-05-31. Retrieved 2020-05-31.
      2. Muller, Divan (2019-04-01). "Names to Remember: Thomas Fitzpatrick". African Pilot. Retrieved 2020-05-31 – via PressReader.
      3. Silberfarb, Edward. (1956-10-01). "Pilot Detained In $5,000 Bail: Emerson Man Held On Four Charges After Landing Plane on New York Street" (pages 1 and 2). The Record. Archived from the original (pages 1 and 2) on 2020-05-30. Retrieved 2020-05-30. – via Newspapers.com.
      4. "Quiz Carlstadt Pilot In NYC Street Landing: Fitzpatrick Shows Up at Headquarters; Had Laneded Craft in Area Two Years Ago". Herald News. Associated Press. 1958-10-04. Archived from the original on 2020-05-30. Retrieved 2020-05-30 – via Newspapers.com. Striking as the source does not provide substantial background about Fitzpatrick.
      The articles do not just discuss his 1956 and 1958 intoxicated flights and landings. Here is more biographical information about Fitzpatrick from the articles:
      1. He was born Thomas Edward Fitzpatrick in New York City on 24 April 1930. His parents were Mr. and Mrs. Frank Fitzpatrick. He had an older brother, Frank, and an older sister.
      2. He joined the U. S. Marine Corps at the age of 15 and likely lied about his age to join. He served during World War II in China near the end of the war. He was honorably discharged from the Marine Corps.
      3. He then enlisted in the US Army and was stationed in Japan. He then fought in the Korean War in the US Army. He received the Silver Star for "gallantry in action against the enemy".
      4. He received a Purple Heart after he was injured. The Purple Heart medal citation said, "During a strategic withdrawal, Corporal Fitzpatrick noticed a wounded officer, about 100 yards (91 metres) forward of his position. In attempting a rescue, he and a companion were seriously wounded. Cpl. Fitzpatrick, despite severe pain and loss of blood, made it back to safety, organised and directed a second rescue party and provided covering fire to support the rescue."
      5. Following his recovery from his Korean War injuries (during which he lost 70 out of 220 pounds), he took part in an Army boxing team and became an Army boxing champion.
      6. Fitzpatrick then served as a military policeman who patrolled the area near New York City's Times Square.
      7. He was discharged from the Army in 1951 and moved to New York City in 1952 where he worked as a steamfitter and took flying lessons from the Teterboro School of Aeronautics.
      8. Fitzpatrick had previously resided in Emerson, New Jersey, but moved to Carlstadt, New Jersey, in June 1958 after he got married.
      9. He was a mechanic working for Curtiss-Wright Corporation at Caldwell, New Jersey.
      10. The "Late Night Flight" is a drink available in Manhattan named for Thomas Fitzpatrick. Ingredients are: Kahlua, vodka, Chambord, blackberries, egg white, and syrump. The drink, when properly mixed, looks like the night sky Fitzpatrick flew under.
      11. He died at age 79 in September 2009 from cancer.
      Cunard (talk) 10:03, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for this. I think there's no doubt remaining about the notability of the event, as it received multiple coverage in reliable sources, so as to justify an article on the event. The details you provide on Mr. Fitzpatrick's life are based on one source, and for the most part are trivial. The claim that he served in World War II, for instance, is only in the death notice and was not repeated in the Times article. I think we need a better source than that for an extraordinary claim (that a man served in U.S. Army during World War II at the age of 14-15). Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 12:37, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The details I provided on Fitzpatrick's life are based on the three sources I listed which provide detailed biographical background about him.

Two reliable sources discuss Fitzpatrick's claimed service in World War II:

From African Pilot's 2019 article written by Divan Muller, "Thomas Edward Fitzpatrick was born on 24 April 1930 in New York City in the USA. In 1945, Fitzpatrick served with the US Marine Corps in World War II's Pacific theatre. He was clearly too young to serve, so it is obvious that he lied about his age."

From The Record's 1956 article written by Edward Silberfarb, "Performing the unusual is not new to Fitzpatrick, however. According to his brother, Frank, he joined the U. S. Marine Corps at the age of 15, and was stationed in China at the close of World War II. Before he was discharged two years later he had learned to fly a reconnaissance plane."

The second source attributes his service in World War II at age 15 to his brother but does not say the source did any independent verification of it. This is an extraordinary claim so these two sources probably are not enough to state in Wikipedia's voice that he served in World War II at age 15. It would be better to attribute this claim to the two sources instead.

Cunard (talk) 00:13, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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