Talk:From Time Immemorial/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Reverts

66.227.137.56, could you please edit the article rather than revert it? If there's something you think is missing, add it. If there's something you think is inappropriate, remove it and it only. And so on. —Ashley Y 02:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Ashley I want to ask you the same question I asked Amoruso, do you really believe that Palestine was virtually depopulated in the late 19th century and that arab immigrants only started coming there after the jewish immigrants. If you don't I'll stop reverting the page and let your most recent version stand and then later make my own edits and then we can go on discussing this like reasonable adults. However, I personally think anyone who thinks that there were no arabs in palestine before the first jewish immigrants came there, such as Amoruso, should be banned from further editing this piece. The reason I made the comparison to Holocaust denial is because for many palestinians this argument that the jews came and made the desert bloom is about as rascist and bigoted an argument as you could ever make. The argument is a flat out lie and has no reputable source to back it up. If we can agree on this point then we can move forward and the mad revert war can end. I sincerely hope we can come to an understanding. annoynmous 22:04, 2 Novemeber 2006 (UTC)

In answer to your questions: I do not believe that Palestine was virtually depopulated in the late 19th century. I do not believe that Arab immigrants only started coming there after the Jewish immigrants. —Ashley Y 03:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, I will keep my promise and if you want to revert the page back to your most recent version I will make no further attempts to further revert it. I will make some of my own edits later in the day, now I'm tired and want to go to bed. I look forward to having more enlightened discussions with you on this article and hope we can come to a reasonable consensus on this issue. I knew there were reasonable people at wikipedia annoynmous 22:21, 2 Novemeber 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Timeimmemorial.jpeg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 02:18, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Barnes & Noble reviews

Reviews in the LA Times, the New York Times, and the National Review would all be notable and appropriate for the page. The trouble is, we don't have them. All we have is quotes from those reviews that Barnes & Noble have made (or else copied from the book-cover) for the purpose of selling books. They are not reliable summaries of the reviews.

To be included, someone would need to find the original reviews, and then read them and summarise them fairly. The dates of the reviews is also important. —Ashley Y 05:53, 14 April 2008 (UTC) →

Capitalism magazine

Is Capitalism Magazine a good source? As far as I can tell, it is basically a blog. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:39, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Bellow blurb

Is the Saul Bellow quote in the article, which is taken from the back cover blurb[1] and widely quoted (e.g. by Chomsky[2]) have a provenance other than the blurb, i.e. was it taken from a review that is being quoted? What is the best way to reference it? BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:43, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

The notion that this book has not been refuted is a joke.

Even former Foreign Minister, Shlomo Ben Ami, says in his book, Scars of War, Wounds of Peace, that there was an ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians:

The reality on the ground... was that of an Arab community in a state of terror facing a ruthless Israeli army whose path to victory was paved not only by its exploits against the regular Arab armies, but also by the intimidation, and at times atrocities and massacres, it perpetrated against the civilian Arab community. A panic-stricken Arab community was uprooted under the impact of masacres that would be carved into the Arabs' monument of grief and hatred... Benny Morris['s] thesis about the birth of the refugee problem being not by design but by the natural logic and evolution of the war is not always sustained by the very evidence he himself provides...Ben-Gurion...also instructed that abandoned Arab villages needed to be settled by Jews even before the end of hostilities.... Israel's formal rejection of the refugees' claim for return — a position that remains intact to this day — rather than the expulsion and dispossession, is the real defining moment of the conflict..

Israel as a society also suppressed the memory of its war against the local Palestinians because it could not really come to terms ith the fact that its finest Sabras, the heroes of its war for independence and the role models of the new nation, expelled Arabs, committed atrocities against them, and dispossessed them.

Quit lying about this book by erasing half the criticism or making it get lost is a mishmash of reviews. TPaineTX (talk) 23:22, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Shlomo Ben Ami, being a left-winger and therefore having bought into the libelous "Zionism as Western colonialism" narrative lock, stock and barrel like most of them, is not a credible source on the subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.172.115.132 (talk) 20:15, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Not only has the book not been refuted it is still recommended reading for courses on the subject with the caveat that it is written for a lay audience and is not an academic treatise. Kuratowski's Ghost (talk) 22:46, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

That is hard to believe. No course would recommend reading that as a serious text, unless it was as a negative example exploring a hoax/fraud as discredited propaganda. The book has been throughly shown to be on par with the "Protocols of Zion." There's not one scholars who specializing in the pre-state period of Israeli history that has not dismissed this book as completely worthless. Anyone who relies on the book in any serious way proves they are way out in the discredited fringe--or ignorant of the clear cut international academic consensus.

Yehoshua Ben-Arieh condemned the Peters book for discrediting the "Zionist cause". Leon Wieseltier called it a "shabby performance by an ignorant women". When the book was released in England it was really trashed by Albert Hourani the Oxford orientalist, Ian and David Gilmour from the London Review of Books, and Avishai Margalit of Hebrew University. Also see Anthony Lewis, "There Were No Indians," New York Times, January 13, 1986, p. A15. Just grabbing a basic history book "Palestine and the Arab-Israeli Conflict" off my shelf I turned to the second chapter pg. 44 footnote 11, it says her claims were "rejected by scholars."Read the articles in Capitalism Magazine and Journal of Palestine Studies, Vol. 14, No. 1 (Autumn, 1984), pp. 126-13476.14.42.200 (talk) 07:50, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

There is no greater fraud than the "Palestinian nation." It is a Big Lie in a truly Goebbelsian sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.132.56.95 (talk) 13:58, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Bellow quote

The article quotes from "Nobel-laureate Saul Bellow's review of the book", but the citation is to Lewis' NYT article, which mentions Bellow but doesn't quote him. So where is the quote from? And why is a novelist being quoted at all, shouldn't we be quoting scholars? Astarabadi (talk) 03:35, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok, it was on the cover of the book. Not a "review" but an "endorsement". Astarabadi (talk) 13:24, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

what EXACTLY in it is a "fraud?"

people have said many things about this book, with some people calling it "fraud" or "plagiarism." Well, what did she plagiarize? What did she lie about? And I mean SPECIFICS, not "oh its all a fraud." I want to know exactly what the "fraud" was. What sources came under controversy? Was it just the demographics of the Ottomans? What things did she get factually wrong?Tallicfan20 (talk) 03:34, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Her argument has been contradicted by many critics, and scholars.

Is there any reasoned objection to adding this, or similar to the lede? I think there should be a mention there, given the attention the article gives it.93.96.148.42 (talk) 23:12, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Joseph Farah, ultra-conservative journalist

I think it is quite clear that Joseph Farah is "ultra-conservative". He belongs to the crowd which keeps claiming, in the teeth of all evidence, that Obama wasn't born in the USA; he claims that the ruckus about this is comparable to the Lewinsky scandal in terms of being a personal enbarrassment to the President; he belongs to the paranoid group which think there is a secret conspiracy to create a North American Union; he is a self-described conservative who has repeatedly collaborated with Rush Limbaugh, who is regarded as ultra-conservative by everyone who is not an ultra-conservative.Ojevindlang (talk) 11:01, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it is very clear that he is "ultra-conservative" (and my opinion is lower than that). But that doesn't mean we can attach this description to his name in the article. Since our opinion of him is not admissible, we would have to add a citation to a reliable source that asserts his ultra-conservativity and that it is relevant to his opinion on Joan Peters. It would get out of hand, which is why we usually don't allow such labelling. Zero^talk 12:01, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

All right. I disagree about the policy in this context but will leave the descussion now.Ojevindlang (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:23, 20 October 2009 (UTC).

Some issues

I removed "while supporters defend its central thesis" from the lead because it was unsourced, and because the book is universally acknowledged as a worthless fraud that is simply recycling old propaganda by serious scholars. It may be true that some non-scholars for political reasons defend the book, but that is really less relevant (and the same could be said about the books of, say, David Irving). As the article points out: "Peters’ book has been rejected as worthless by the scholarly community around the world, including Israel".

I removed the details of the investigation at Harvard University related to the Dershowitz affair, because that has very little to do with this book (that was published years before) and is dealt with in a separate article. The material is not relevant in this article. It is already pointed out that this issue "became a central issue in the Dershowitz-Finkelstein affair", which is sufficient as far as this article is concerned. We don't need to repeat the whole discussion on a completely different issue.

There is no reason whatsoever to remove the recent quote from Avi Shlaim. Virgil Lasis (talk) 13:40, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

• I second all these edits by Virgil Lasis, and the reasons for doing them. I added the Shlaim quote originally, and it's really quite damning considering his standing on this issue. Shoplifter (talk) 14:00, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Critics vs responses for the critics

It seem that the critic section is extensively and un proportionally longer than the response section. The article deal with a book which take part in a loaded political issue-naturaly, it's unrealistic to expect it to be totaly unbiased-to achieve that, a lot of work is needed. My suggestion is that we merge both sections into a much shorter than the critics section by itself. It should only be more neutral, but also to save much space.--Gilisa (talk) 12:47, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Description of reception in heading

Since there is continuing disagreement on the description of the book's reception in the heading, I suggest all concerned make their points in favor of their version so we can reach a settlement.

I argue for this formulation: The book has been heavily disputed by critics (some calling the book "sheer forgery" and a "hoax"), while supporters defend its central thesis.

My reasons are these:

• As exemplified in the rest of the article, those reviewers who have made a scholarly effort and investigated the claims of the book, have soundly rejected it as, at best, fallacious, but more often, a "hoax", "fraud" and "forgery". This includes the New York Times review by the Israeli historian and acclaimed expert of Palestine demographics, Yehoshua Porath.

• There remains a small number of people, including known and vocal supporters of the Israeli occupation (which, according to the International Court of Law, is illegal), such as Alan Dershowitz and Daniel Pipes, who have expressed some support for the book. This, however, is a very limited support which only pertains to the book's central thesis. Both Pipes and Dershowitz have acknowledged that the book is disputed, and in the case of Pipes, has further acknowledged several of its other flaws, which is recognized in the article.

• Of course, a political leader such as Netanyahu, can not be accounted for as a legitimate reviewer.

• Despite this, there has been several attempts by editors to make the reception of the book seem as to hinge on political alliances, or to make it seem as if the critical reception of the book is divided. This is, as is clearly represented by the record exemplified in the rest of the article, erroneous at best, and disingenuous at worst.

• For all these reasons, I suggest that the formulation I support is the most accurate in terms of the book's reception and current standing in the scholarly community. Shoplifter (talk) 13:25, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Pipes, Dershowitz and Netanyahu are rational sane individuals with high standing. Porath is a former leftist extremist who criticized certain details of the book, he did not call it a hoax or a forgery. Chomsky and Finkelstein are known cranks, Finkelsteins reviews of the book failed peer review several times before being accepted by a non-academic publication. Kuratowski's Ghost (talk) 15:50, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid your idea of what constitues a "rational sane individual with high standing" is not consistent with the Wikipedia classification of a reputable source. Porath is a professor at the Hebrew University of Jersualem, he is an acclaimed expert on Palestine demographics which is the reason his review was commissioned by the New York Times, and he did call the book "sheer forgery". In regard to your criticism of Finkelstein's review, it can be said that William B. Quandt, the Edward Stettinius professor of Politics at the University of Virginia and authority on Middle Eastern politics, described Finkelstein's critique as a "landmark essay" and a "victory to his credit", in its "demonstration" of the "shoddy scholarship" of Peters's book. Shoplifter (talk) 16:39, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Here are additional people of repute who have denounced Peters's book:

* Israeli professor Avishai Margalit called the book a "web of deceit".

* Israeli professor Avi Shlaim, as mentioned in the article, called the book "preposterous and worthless".

* English historian Albert Hourani, writing in The Observer, 5 March 1985, called the book "ludicrous and worthless". Shoplifter (talk) 17:16, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Emotional statements by two leftist radicals and an Arab historian writing in a newspaper, sorry these are not reliable sources. Kuratowski's Ghost (talk) 20:18, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

It's interesting that your main point of argument is denouncing people as "extremists", "leftists" and "Arab(s)" in lack of producing any support whatsoever for your own claims. As it happens, all three of the above are 1) universally respected authorities on either the Arab-Israeli conflict or Middle Eastern politics and 2) tenured professors at prestigious universities or acclaimed researchers in their own right. Their political leanings or ethnicities are of no relevance.

Allow me to sum up the situation. This book has been thrashed by reviewers writing in, among others, The New York Times, The London Review of Books, The Observer, The Times Literary Supplement, The Spectator et al. In at least the three first mentioned reviews, aside from its central thesis being rejected in the starkest terms possible, numerous claims made in the book have been meticulously dissected (have a look at the 8,000 word essay by British MP Ian Gilmour writing in the London Review of Books), and a plethora of falsifications and errors surrounding the writer's thesis exposed. In addition, I've exemplified with numerous people, including high-profile Israeli academics, and acclaimed professionals on the issue, who rejects the book as ludicrous.

In your defense, you have made the claim that Nethanyahu, Dershowitz and Pipes supports the book. Both Pipes and Dershowitz have expressed limited support, i.e., the central thesis of the book. In light of this, to say that my proposed heading is not an accurate rendition of the book's reception, is, I think, simply disingenuous. Shoplifter (talk) 20:46, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Newspaper reviews don't count as reliable sources for wikipedia articles. The "New Historians" have been thoroughly debunked. None of Peter's crirics have successfully refuted her central thesis they merely nit pick about sloppiness in some places, a major gripe for them being the fact that she does not distinguish between Arab immigrants and locally born children of Arab immigrants in her stats and they miss the point that regardless, the figures show that the Arab population was not established from "time immemorial" as leftist propagandists like to pretend. Kuratowski's Ghost (talk) 13:00, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

"Newspaper reviews don't count as reliable sources for wikipedia articles"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources#News_organizations

At this point, it seems to me that you're simply "being a dick and spreading misinformation", which, as you state on your user page, is one of your "interests". So I will end the discussion here. Shoplifter (talk) 17:28, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

The current heading is the best option at the moment. The previous editing was heavily biased as this book was not debunked as some biased edits suggested, it has both opponents and supporters. In terms of dry facts, this book is a very strict one and reliable one.--Gilisa (talk) 07:17, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

It is thoroughly debunked and discredited, but we aren't allowed to say that in the lead. Therefore, I disagree with Shoplifter's text even though I agree with his/her opinion of the book. More importantly, the lead paragraph should succinctly state what the book claims, i.e. what all the fuss about. I tried to summarize it but it won't stick. Btw, the book itself is a source for what the book says; we don't need an additional source for that. Zero^talk 10:10, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

I principally agree with Zero, albeit the reason I'm hesitant about having a lede describing the book is because the editors who refuse to acknowledge that this book has been rejected in the affirmative by an overwhelming majority of the scholarly community have been unwilling to settle for an unbiased description. If we can all agree on a neutral description then that would be fine. I also think that my proposed heading describing the book's reception should be agreed upon unless those who disagree with it makes a reasonable counter-proposition (sourced). I still fail to see how my description is not an accurate rendition of the book's reception, and the article itself. Shoplifter (talk) 18:50, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Zero, how exactly this book has been "debunked and discredited"? Do you have reliable sources to support this assertion? Meaning from historians who are not known for their agenda (i.e., not politicians, new historians or anti Zionists like Finkelstein and Chomesky)? In any case, the standard here should be the same use in other articles of books in contorversy in any other field (e.g., evolution, sexuality, religion, race and intelligence, political issues and so forth). My suggestion is to leave it as it's now-"a controversial book". Then, in my opinion, the other sections of the article should describe both opposers and supporters. I don't think that the central notion of the book was "debunked" as I saw an official survey was done by the British Mandat whose conclusions were in agreement with the central themes of the book. Whenever this discussion is going to, I realy don't consider this issue (i.e., whether there were here X Jews and Y Muslims in the 19CE or Z Jews and W Muslims) of high importance. --Gilisa (talk) 20:15, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

My personal reason for damning the book is that I know a lot about this subject and spent a lot of time checking the book against its sources. I have most of the primary sources she mentions, and more. Her book is full of gross distortions and cheap propagandistic tricks. But my personal knowledge is not relevant here of course. I'll just say that you are quite wrong about British reports. You need to consult the originals and not Peters' selective quotations. Then you will find that they uniformly disagree with Peters' central claims. Regarding "reliable sources to support this assertion", the opinions of Yehoshua Porath (one of the most recognised experts on the history of Palestine) and Justin McCarthy (one of the most famous Ottoman demographers) should be enough. They both say the book is worthless. The fact is that nobody with a similar academic status is supporting the book, and none of the alleged supporters ever cite it in their own publications. Zero^talk 23:52, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Inline attribution of Peters claims

Peters is not a RS therefore her claims must always be attributed to her and not stated in Wikipedia's voice.

In researching the United Nations data from 1948, she became perplexed over the the change that occurred in the definition of an Arab refugee (today's "Palestinians"). Why had the traditional definition of a refugee changed from those who were forced to leave permanent or "habitual" homes into persons who had been in Palestine for only two years before Israeli statehood?

This section is inappropriately states Peters claims in Wikipedias voice. I made an attempt at fixing it:

In researching the United Nations data from 1948, she became perplexed over what she saw as the change that occurred in the definition of an Arab refugee (today's "Palestinians"). Peters perceived that the traditional definition of a refugee changed from those who were forced to leave permanent or "habitual" homes into persons who she claimed had been in Palestine for only two years before Israeli statehood.

Factomancer (talk) 07:57, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

It still gives too much credence to her story. It is just the standard propagandist's plea "I always believed X but the evidence forced me to admit Y". Who needs it? It also gives too much weight to the "two years" aspect which is only a tiny part of the book. It would be better to expand on the description of the book's main claims, since it really doesn't matter how she came to make them. Zero ^{[User_talk:Zero0000|talk]]} 13:18, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

She makes a point of it in her preface to the book. The "two years" part is not a "tiny part". It is the clue that led to her thesis. She goes back to it in the last chapter of the book. Stellarkid (talk) 05:32, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Why is it notable? What would it matter if she got her revelation from reading tea-leaves? Surely the important things are what she claims and what notable commentators say about it. Zero^talk 06:16, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Factomancer your changes:

In researching the United Nations data from 1948, she became perplexed over what she saw as the change that occurred in the definition of an Arab refugee (today's "Palestinians"). Peters perceived that the traditional definition of a refugee changed from those who were forced to leave permanent or "habitual" homes into persons who she claimed had been in Palestine for only two years before Israeli statehood.

I am fine with everything up to the "she claimed had been in Palestine for only two years" etc...Because that is not what she is saying. She is saying that the definition of refugee changed for the Palestinians from the UNHCR standard definition of refugee to what became UNRWA's definition of a Palestinian refugee. She is not claiming that the Arabs were only there for two years. Stellarkid (talk) 05:26, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Since UNRWA's definition was adopted a year before UNHCR even existed, you are not helping her credibility any. Also the "two years" requirement is stricter than the UNHCR requirment (which only refers to "former habitual residence"). Zero^talk 06:16, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

What is the central thesis of the book?

I can guess or infer the answer to this question, but the job of this article is to inform, not to give me something to guess about. Someone who is familiar with the work and the sources about it, please add this information to the lede. Dlabtot (talk) 04:31, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing while reading this article. Praise and criticism are both described, but what the book actually says is not at all discussed. I would also appreciate if someone knowledgeable in the subject could add such information. Dappawit (talk) 00:58, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I have read it and will try to work up a paragraph in the next few days. Stellarkid (talk) 06:04, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

As I understand it, that many of the Palestinian Arabs of 1948 were actually relatively recent Syrian immgrants. AnonMoos (talk) 06:33, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Right, but not only Syria. It is hard to pin down a very specific claim of the book due to its hysterical style and internal contradictions. Zero^talk 07:22, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

The only hysteria is the one shown by the opponents to the book. The book was written by a journalist and there are always contradictions or imperfections in such books. It is actually very well written but it touches on a subject that various anti zionists and antisemites are uncomfortable with.

I propose to list the chapters in the book:

• The middle east refugees - recognized and unrecognized
• The creation of yesterday - early population and depopulation of the holy land
• The political influence of tradition - immigrants and in-migrants - recognized and unrecognized...

Amoruso (talk) 15:15, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Good, that sounds good, Amoruso. Just don't use this as your model! Stellarkid (talk) 17:23, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Essentially this book is the equivalent of "The protocols of the Elders of Zion". It's fraudulent and based on race hatred of a minority. The biggest difference is that we know it was a Palestininian-hating Zionist who wrote it, whereas we can only suspect an antisemite wrote the Protocols. Another book in the same category as the Protocols is Alan Dershowitz's "The Case for Israel". Urbane23 (talk) 14:06, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Except it's not true. The book is the equivalent of Ilan Pappe's books about Israel perhaps. Amoruso (talk) 15:32, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Ilan Pappe was forced from his tenured professorship in Israel because he wanted Israel to dig up a car-park where there are probably 250 massacred bodies of women and children in Tantura.

Whereas Joan Peters made a fortune because Israel bought up huge numbers of her book to hand out as propaganda, the same thing as very few Arab governments have done to "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion". Urbane23 (talk) 17:03, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Ilan pappe was exposed as a liar about cases like Tantura because he's a fraud. Joan Peters is a journalist who exposed realities about the middle east conflicts that antisemites and anti zionists, like pappe for instance, are uncomfortable with. Amoruso (talk) 23:43, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Ilan Pappe wasn't ethnically cleansed from his job and from his country because he was wrong but because he was right. Even the propaganda version says there are some 70 bodies under the car-park in Tantura, they should be dug up and given a proper burial. The Israeli killers won't allow that to happen because they know there are more like 250 bodies, men women and children that they massacred. Urbane23 (talk) 21:51, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

This article is not neutral

I made several changes:

1. More about the book itself:

a. its name

b. the part about the Jews that became refugees after the war

2. More balanced review of the controversy

a. show both sides at the opening section, not only Porath's

b. Removeing the title "experts" that was only given to the critical side

c. showing that Porath was not a neutral expert but a olitician, and so others that criticized the book

Bbeehvh (talk) 07:47, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

I've reverted on the following grounds:

a. Porath was not a candidate of Meretz at the time of publication; in fact, he didn't represent them until seven years laters. Furthermore, his review was commissioned by The New York Times, and thus wasn't written as a political response. To state that he was a political candidate and a "leftist politician" is 1) factually incorrect and 2) a violation of WP:BLP.

b. I've changed the wording "experts in the field" to the balanced "extensively criticized" (this can hardly be disputed, even by the most ardent supporters of the book).

c. To include Pipes's response in the opening is misleading since this particular assertion of his was repudiated by Porath. The reason why Porath's view is included in the opening is because he is quite possibly the single most reputed person to have reviewed the book (Israeli professor in the specific field in question), and he did so in the most accredited and mainstream paper in the United States.

d. Additionally, I've removed any and all WP:POV statements and others violating WP:BLP (describing Chomsky as "extreme anti-Israeli", labeling works "controversial" etc.).Shoplifter (talk) 01:36, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Shoplifter - Your version is still a violation of WP:NPOV. True, it is no longer dubbing the opponents to the book as "experts" while the refering to the supporters as "some". However, it still provides Porath's criticism as a much important than others'.

My Pipe's quote balancing Porath's because he points out the main issue - all the criticism does not shake the thesis of the book.

Being an Israeli, writing to important newspaper, etc. does not make Porath the ultimate judge on the issue.

Therefore - I eliminated Porath's citation from the opening as well. This is definitle neutral.

Bbeehvh (talk) 05:40, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Book is a fraud

I object to the line that evidence is "Scanty at Best" to support Finkelsteins accusations of fraud. Most academics agree today that it is a fraud. The only people who don't are extremist apologists for Israel like Alan Dershowitz. Ommiting infromation, such as the capitlaism magazine article, that proves this point is my opinion intellectually dishonest. This not an issue of POV, it is simply a matter of fact that most serious scholars consider the book to be a fraud. annoynmous 18:01, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

- See 'Blaming the victims' by Said and Hitchens for a play by play expose —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.114.164.64 (talk) 07:21, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

THE BOOK IS NOT A FRAUD........the historical revisionists of the Left (academics, intellectual elites etc) dont like it because it contains the truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.24.47.254 (talk) 13:22, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Its not wikipedias's place to determine the validity of the book. Only to report what the general consensus is. Which is that the book was not well reviewed or well respected in most academic circles, even in israel 97.91.187.111 (talk) 09:21, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

The whole first part of the book is not about the Arabs

The first part of Peters book is not Arab immigration into Palestine. It is about the Jewish communities through the Arab world who became refugees and fled to israel.

This is important for:

It takes half of the bbok, and the article is not about the refugee problem but about the book.

It leads to her conclusion that Jewish refugees and Arab refugees canceled each other in population exchange

Bbeehvh (talk) 05:54, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Lede

I take issue with the description of there being a "still on-going controversy". I don't think that Farah's review counts as reviving the controversy. The book has been repudiated in the affirmative by the academic community and is not even a topic of discussion among scholars. I suggest that we remove the unsourced description of the book's reception and let the sourced praise/criticism stand for itself. Shoplifter (talk) 20:54, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

The book has clearly not being repudiated. However, there is nothing new to add to the controversy, and therefore, the issue is not discussed any more. Now, if there is any specific part you wish to remove - please be specific. Bbeehvh 22:20, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

I think what is missing is a review of the content of the book. Almost the whole article discusses the reactions to the book, and not the book itself. The article should explain the book's thesis, and then, after the content has been presented, everyone can judge for themselves. Bbeehvh 22:20, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

I was specific. I said I wanted to remove the sentence in the lede which is not sourced, namely "The book was lauded by some reviewers upon release, but has since come to be extensively criticized, leading to a long, still ongoing, controversy.", or at the least the part about there being an "on-going controversy". As far as your view of the book, I'm aware of it since you and I have had this discussion before. From my point of view, the book is nonsense and a dangerous attempt at dismantling the rights of an indigenous population in order to legitimize their disenfranchisement or worse. Reputable scholars in the field, including Porath and Justin McCarthy, agrees with me when it comes to the value of Peters's book. Of course, you are entitled to your opinion. The question here is whether there is a point in having an unsourced sentence in the lede describing the controversy surrounding the book. My suggestion is, instead of getting into another strenuous argument on its content, let's remove it entirely, and let the reviews speak for themselves. Now, as I've said before, if you want to add information about the contents of the book, every statement must be properly sourced in accordance with WP:V. Of course, the reception of the book will remain as it's thoroughly sourced in accordance with this policy.

One important point: you claim that the book has not been repudiated by the academic community (which is the only relevant constituency; politicians or laymen do not have a say in the matter). If this is true, I ask you to demonstrate this by referencing a single contemporary, published, scholarly work which relies on the findings of the book. Shoplifter (talk) 23:25, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Removing the opening - I agree to every change that leaves the article balanced. In this spirit I also agree to remove the setence that you have quoted.

In my view the book is being attacked only for showing so clearly that this "indigenous population" simply does not exist.

The book is not a scientific work. It was made by a journalist. On top of that the atmosphere in the academia is so extremely leftist that noone dares using such sources. Academist, even in Israel, live in terror that they the will never be promoted if they do not follow the leftist line. See Teddy Katz. If not for the veterans of the war - we would still have believed that there was a massacre in tantura. Bbeehvh 05:36, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I take up the chalange. I will start (slowly probably) reviewing the book chapter by chapter. Bbeehvh 05:36, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I think it's interesting that the reason, you claim, the book has been repudiated is because of a leftist conspiracy when the book was in fact met with rave reviews in the United States prior to Finkelstein demonstrating that it was a sham. Nevertheless, both your view and my view of the book is irrelevant to the article. I would ask you, if you're going to make significant additions to the article, to please post them on the talk page first for other editors to evaluate, in accordance with good etiquette when editing controversial articles. Shoplifter (talk) 14:43, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Very well. I will try to find the time to review the contents, and will post to the talk page first.

Are you aware of any rules regarding such a review? Bbeehvh 21:34, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean by the word "review". Anything which isn't describing the book's contents (and isn't directly sourced from the book) is likely WP:OR and thus ineligible for inclusion. I thought you wanted to include content from the book. Here's an example of what an article describing a book may look like: Manufacturing Consent: The Political Economy of the Mass Media. Shoplifter (talk) 22:56, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

What I meant was that a review may violate copyrights on the book. Bbeehvh 16:31, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, I don't know the fine points of that, but I suspect that the reproduction of a book's content with proper citations is considered fair use. Shoplifter (talk) 16:54, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

The article of Segev

It makes no sense to cite everyone that cites what Finkelstein says. We have Finkelstein's views discussed in length, and this is what is needed to cover the issue. Bbeehvh 04:10, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

I disagree: Segev's article gives credence to Finkelstein's view of the book, and additionally adds information about the origin of the book itself. As far as I can tell, there is nothing in Wikipedia's inclusion criteria which excludes adding Segev's sourced view of the book, regardless of who he quotes to support it. Segev's support of Finkelstein brings further proof that the book has been repudiated by serious historians and academics. Shoplifter (talk) 08:27, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Segev did not analyze the subject scientifically. He simply reports what Finkelstein said. How does it give any credit to Finkelstein? What further proof?

I could continue this line citing everyone that has ever quoted everyone else that had written about the subject.

I think that only new material should be included.

Regarding his story about the source of the book - the author itself writes a totaly different story. What makes Segev a WP:RS ?Bbeehvh 10:50, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Segev is an acclaimed historian on the topic in question. Like Shlaim, in supporting Finkelstein's conclusion, he explicitly refutes Peters's book. Segev is a prime example of reliable source which, according to "Reliability in specific contexts", includes that of statements of opinion: "Some sources may be considered reliable for statements as to their author's opinion, but not for statements asserted as fact without an inline qualifier like "(Author) says...". A prime example of this is Op-ed columns in mainstream newspapers." (my emphasis) The statement is attributed to Segev, from an Op-ed piece in a mainstream paper, and is properly sourced. Shoplifter (talk) 11:18, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I think that it is quite proper to list which notable people back Finkelstein. That gives an impression of the depth of opposition to the contents of From Time Immemorial which would otherwise be lacking.     ←   ZScarpia   17:12, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

In this case, since he is only a supporter of Finkelstein and have no new info to add, you shoud mention that Segev is a "new historian", one of those despicable historians who made their career by adopting the palestinian position no matter what. Bbeehvh 08:01, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

The "depth of opposition" is political. All extreme leftists will oppose the book. Still, this does not add new information. Bbeehvh 08:01, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

And, one more comment, Segev is not a historian. He is a journalist. Bbeehvh 08:22, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I think you headed into WP:SOAPBOX territory with that one. And you seem to have contradicted yourself, unless you think that "new historians" aren't historians.     ←   ZScarpia   08:43, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Bbeehvh, your view of Segev and his credentials is irrelevant to the article. Equally so is your conjuration of an all-encompassing leftist conspiracy to explain why the book has been repudiated by scholars. As editors, we are obliged to uphold WP:NPOV, including WP:V. The New York Times describes Segev as "an Israeli journalist and historian" who is "the author of several well regarded books". [3] I agree with you, as does NYT, that Segev is generally perceived as being a "New Historian". For the sake of compromise, I will add this caveat to my edit, in hope that this settles the issue. Shoplifter (talk) 08:55, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

My views are not important, this discussion is about the book. The article says almost nothing about the book, says a lot about what people said about the book, and now it continues to describe what other people said about what people said about the book. Does this presentation make any sense to you? Bbeehvh 10:31, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

You've made this point repeatedly, and as I've stated each time, you like everyone else is free to make any additions to the article as long as they comport with WP:5. I've reverted your edit which misrepresents the source; I've quoted NYT verbatim in saying that Segev is "seen as being part of" the New Historians. He does not "identify" with the group. Shoplifter (talk) 10:36, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Don't worry - I will get to it. Meanwhile you will can find more and more people who don't even claim that they had ever read the book, but cite Finkelstein's opinion about it . . . Bbeehvh 14:02, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Criticism section is far far too long

I don't know anything about the value or accuracy of the book, but the criticism section is far too long and makes the article an attack site. I am trimming it.Drsmoo (talk) 05:53, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

A bold and a very big edit. I think that you should have discussed it a bit more first.     ←   ZScarpia   06:02, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

So let's discuss, do you agree or disagree?Drsmoo (talk) 12:54, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree, for what it's worth. It looks like the article has slowly been gathering all this crap from every partisan editor's favorite op-ed columnist. The article should make clear that the book was controversial and not accepted by all, but it should be left at that. We don't need every single person's opinion, mostly redundant, in the article.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 14:57, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

I strongly agree. The article hardly says anything about the book itself. There should be another article about the controversy arond the book, and this article should describe the book. It may shortly summarizes the controversy, and refer to the other article. Bbeehvh 16:27, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

_{Subscript text}== Is the public opinion in Israel relevant to this article? ==

ZScarpia - I am open to discussion. Please do not simply undo what I have done. Bbeehvh 19:59, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

You've got the wrong editor. But I agree with Zero that the report you've mentioned doesn't merit a special mention.     ←   ZScarpia   00:43, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Sorry ZScarpia.

To the point - the report shows that the what is written right before is wrong. Some Israelis do "gushed over the book". If the unsupported and irrelevant opinion of Anthony Lewis is worth mentiong - sure its factual falsification is. I agree that both are equally irrelevant. They are not about the book, but about Israeli public opinion. Bbeehvh 07:37, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

No problem ... but keep in mind that the 1RR restriction most probably applies to this article.     ←   ZScarpia   12:46, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

The "report" is a self-published polemic from a political action group. As such it fails Wikipedia sourcing requirements by a large margin. On the other hand, Anthony Lewis is a famous journalist reporting in a major newspaper. Those are the rules. Zero^talk 09:22, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Zero - this is not how editing in Wiki is done. You cannot remove what other people write unless you put it to discussion. I undid your editing. Please let the discussion work. Bbeehvh 11:38, 13 May 2011 (UTC)Irm Ti

Discussion starts with the rules. WP:RS is not a negotiating position, it is a policy that must be obeyed. If you think the Im Tirtzu "report" satisfies the rules, you are welcome to argue your case at WP:RS/N. But you will wasting your time since it doesn't even come close. Zero^talk 12:00, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

By what rules you think that you are the last judge on what is relevant?Bbeehvh 12:17, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

As a very experienced editor and a Wikipedia administrator, I do have some knowledge of this matter. I advised you how get other opinions. Zero^talk 12:37, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

I raise my question again: why is the last paragraph, as now standing, relevant to the article? The paragraph claims to know what Israelis think. The author view on this issue is questionable. The paragraph adds no information whatsoever to the subject of the article. Can I omit the last paragraph? Bbeehvh 12:21, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

The quotation is not about public opinion. It is about the academic reception. This is clear if you read the whole article. We quote reliable sources like the NYT for such general statements because we aren't allowed to formulate them ourselves. Zero^talk 12:37, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

The reference cited is not open to the public. Therefore, I cannot read the whole article. The text that is cited does not refer specifically ato cademic reception.

However, if you believe that Lewis only refers to academic reception, I would suggest: (1) saying explicitely that he relates to Israeli and American acdemics rather than "book's reception in the United States and Israel", and (2) stating explicitly that the material is an op-ed and only reflects the opinion of the author. Bbeehvh 13:34, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

On reading the Lewis article again, I see he refers to some people who wouldn't be called academics though most of them are. The best summary is that he is referring to prominent reviewers of the book, most of whom are qualified to review it. He doesn't ever mention public reaction. I changed the text a bit. Your suggestion (2) is unnecessary as we already attribute the opinion to Anthony Lewis. Zero^talk 14:43, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Will you agree to this:

Anthony Lewis, discussing the reactions to the book of commentators in Israel and the US, wrote:

"Israelis have not gushed over the book as some Americans have."

Lewis further speculates that:

"Perhaps that is because they know the reality of the Palestinians' existence, as great Zionists of the past knew. Perhaps it is because most understand the danger of trying to deny a people identity. As Professor Porath says, Neither historiography nor the Zionist cause itself gains anything from mythologizing history."[3]

I am trying to (1) presenting his language, (2) expressing, taking your word for it, that he refers to commentators, and (3) distinguishing between his reliability, as presumably neutral observer, to present facts, and his speculation about the reason behind the facts. Bbeehvh 15:10, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

No, that comes under the meaning of original research. We are only allowed to report what he wrote, we aren't allowed to cast doubt on it or guess how he got the information. For all we know he reported this on the basis of deep knowledge of the subject, so calling it speculation would be our commentary. If someone else of note writing in a "reliable source" said something contradicting Lewis, that could be cited too; it is the best we can do. Zero^talk 15:47, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

I believe you are wrong in every word. His article is not a scientific research but an editorial opinion. Such sources leave much roon for speculations. This is their nature. Presenting these sources as such is not a criticism but fair presentation. In my opinion the text as now standing is misleading, and what should be qouted as speculation appears to validated facets. Beyond that, the normal reader would still think that Lewis refers to Israeli public opinion rather than to academics.

Now since you are so well versed in such issues - if you think A and I think B - how do we resolve this issue? Bbeehvh 17:32, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

How do we resolve this issue? The normal method would, of course, be to seek the opinions of other editors in order to establish a consensus.

On the Lewis further speculates addition, my opinion is that, while I agree that Lewis is speculating (the use of the word perhaps makes that clear), I think that the addition is unnecessary; it doesn't clarify anything and it makes it look as though one contiguous comment is actually two, separated, ones.

On the ambiguity in the first sentence, I agree that it is there, but it is also present in your suggested replacement version. To remove the ambiguity, I would suggest using more definite wording such as: Anthony Lewis observes about the reactions of commentators; or, on the reactions of commentators, Anthony Lewis observes.

    ←   ZScarpia   21:28, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

It is true that the word 'speculates' carries a negative meaning. However, the word 'observes' carries the meaning of coomunicating facts. Therefore, I suggest the word 'suggests' or the word 'proposes' ? These words are neutral.

I suggest: Comparing the reactions of American and Israeli commentators to the book, Anthony Lewis suggests ....

I assume that I corrctly understood Zero's statement above, that Lewis refers to commentators. The article is not open to the public, and I did not read the whole of it. Bbeehvh 15:36, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm not keen on the word suggests as, to me, the first part of what Lewis says is not a suggestion. How about using the word remarks, or falling back on one of the standbys, says or writes.     ←   ZScarpia   20:52, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

This was the reason I have split his text into two in the first place. In the first he claims to note a fact, and in the second he speculates on the reason. Both remarks and says are misleading. The reader assumes that what is said is a fact.

In my opinion the whole paragraph is irrelevant. It adds nothing to the knowledge about the controversy, and the only contribution is the speculation about the difference between Israelis and Americans. As if a phenomenon with such small numbers means anything. If you gentelmen think this paragraph is important - at least we should warn the reader that what they read is not facts. Bbeehvh 03:24, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Zero - since not many people show interest - can I try aain to convince you? Bbeehvh 19:27, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

You will need to find a better argument, because so far I was not convinced. The text is explicitly about this book, written by a noted journalist in a leading newspaper, and includes his words ("perhaps", twice) that clearly indicate where he is expressing an opinion. Whether you or I like what he wrote or not is irrelevant. Zero^talk 02:23, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Then, how do we resolve the issue? Bbeehvh 02:32, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Zero - again - if you think that this paragraph is wonderul, and I think it is irrelevant, speculative and misleading - what shall we do? Bbeehvh 03:36, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

You can seek other opinions. A standard way is to post a question on WP:RS/N or WP:NPOV/N or other such noticeboard. But choose only one noticeboard (people get really annoyed if you post the same thing in two places) and put a note here which refers to it. If you can't find a consensus for your point of view, you should give up. Zero^talk 06:35, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

OK, thanks, I will try to figure out how to do that.

Does it mean that if I put there something - you cannot change it unless you or soeone else reach a consensus to remove or change it? Bbeehvh 10:32, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

The rules are not so precise, but generally it is considered good form to not edit the disputed article text until the discussion is finished. Zero^talk 11:50, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

It sounds good, but this way, since we came to a deadend, my side of the story does not show. I cannot do anything but insert my own text in order to make my position show.Bbeehvh 11:23, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

No, what you should do is to explain on the noticeboard what you think is wrong with the current text, and you can also state what text you would like to replace it by. Zero^talk 11:52, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

If you open a discussion elsewhere, please could you drop a notification here?     ←   ZScarpia   12:57, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Incidentally, the article of Lewis is behind a pay-wall, but I checked that the text on this page matches the original. We aren't allowed to link to blogs like that in articles, but you can give the link in discussions so that other people know what you are talking about. Zero^talk 14:54, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Zero - I wish our reference to Lewis' observation here would be as presice and careful as your wording regarding Kissinger's note on Lewis himself. Bbeehvh 18:43, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Anyways, can you please explain in more detail what it means, or help to execute, to "explain on the noticebaord" ? Wiki techniques are often hard to master. Bbeehvh 18:43, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Bbeehvh, a couple of comments on yesterday's changes:

• I think that the Finkelstein citation at the end should actually be included in normal ref template so that it appears in the Reference section.
• Did Finkelstein say that Martin Peretz suggested that there wasn't a single factual error in the book or did he use some other word? If he used words like wrote, stated or said, I think it would be better to use a word of that form in the article.

    ←   ZScarpia   01:02, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

You are right on both comments. Thanks. I will improve that section. I have to figure out how to cite a book, and recheck the exact wording in the book. Bbeehvh 03:49, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

These links might be of use: Wikipedia:Citing sources, Template:Cite. You might like to check out the ProveIt tool also.     ←   ZScarpia   11:52, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

To get the citations to appear in the References section, you need to bookend them with <ref>...</ref> tags.     ←   ZScarpia   14:46, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

• This way?
• There are several citations to Peretz, and I am not sure wha exactly he said. I couldn't find his article.Bbeehvh 16:57, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

This entry on the Finkelstein blog says that both Peretz entries were sourced from the same New Republic column. Finkelstein says that Peretz suggested that there were no errors in the book ("Peretz suggested that there wasn't a single factual error in Peters's book - which was true, but only in the trivial sense that it contained no facts.") I've tried finding the New Republic column in question, but without any luck (though I did come across this entry in The Rittenhouse Review - which doesn't make very compimentary reading - and this Google book - see pages 34, 62-63 in particular). The closest I've been able to get is the online version of Peretz's columns. As you may know, The New Republic has an online archive, but the contents are behind a pay wall.     ←   ZScarpia   18:49, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

I think better safe than sorry. After all, Peretz is an editor and a columnist. Whatever columnists say is only a suggestion. Nobody think Peretz really checked out every single fact in the book to make sure there are no errors. And probably the same holds for Lewis, Porath and Finkelstein. I don't share Zero's belief that journalists write "on the basis of deep knowledge of the subject". They know what we all know, but they write it well. Bbeehvh 08:29, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Zero wrote, "For all we know he [Lewis] reported this on the basis of deep knowledge of the subject," a comment about Lewis in particular rather than journalists in general. Isn't it likely that some journalists are experts on some of the things they write about (and some television producers too)?     ←   ZScarpia   14:06, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

I can only see The New Republic back to 1988. One thing to note: WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT. If Finkelstein is the only source of what Peretz wrote, then the citation has to be to Finkelstein even if it also mentions the citation Finkelstein gave. Zero^talk 11:05, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

You can try your way, and see if people are happy with it. However, giving the source, albeit difficult to get at, is still in my opinion useful. Bbeehvh 13:13, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

If I've read correctly, the suggestion is to cite both where the information for the article came from (Finkelstein) and where Finkelstein got his information from (Peretz's New Republic column), which does sound like the correct procedure to me.     ←   ZScarpia   14:10, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Right, it could either have the form "Peretz citation, cited by Finkelstein citation", or the form "Finkelstein citation, citing Peretz citation". However, I am very dubious about the sentence "Peretz suggested that there was not a single factual error in the book." Without seeing the original we can't really know what it means. The word "suggest" suggests that Peretz never made that claim but only wrote as if he believes it (in Finkelstein's opinion). It is also rather dangerous to bring information on a person that we only know from the words of that person's enemy. We would have to write "According to Finkelstein, Peretz suggested..." (yuk). I propose to delete this sentence. Zero^talk 02:27, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

We should probably check the publication date of Peretz's column in The New Republic. I now have a hard copy of Blaming the Victims and, in it, Finkelstein gives the date as 23 July 1984, not 23 July 1986 as the citation gives it in the article.     ←   ZScarpia   10:54, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

1984 is cited as the year of publication in Image and reality of the Israel-Palestine conflict also. I'll amend the article.     ←   ZScarpia   10:58, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

I wish we would be as maticulous regarding Lewiss misleading presentation as we are in Peretz's. In this spirit I have changed it a bit hoping that Zero will agree to the change. Bbeehvh 17:58, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Unnecessary additions

Folks - I erased the word "controversial" that was on the first sentence. Every book, even Joan Peters', deserves at least one paragraph where the book is presented without expressing any opinion. We have a long paragraph about why the book is wrong, and the "controversial" recieces fair presentation. Let the article have an opening that is simply factual without color, please. Bbeehvh 18:02, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

article structure

The positive and negative reviews need to have equal presentation in the article. I changed it a bit but my solution is not ideal since some reviews are partly positive and partly negative. Another method would be to just have one section called "Reviews". Zero^talk 11:12, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Since the rules of the games are that you take the freedom to undo my work, and at the same time take the liberty to scold me if I do something to the work of others - there is not much use discussing anything with you. I played under the assumption that everybody has the same power. Now I lost the appetite. If nobody comes to my help - it is your game to rule as you wish. Bbeehvh 19:07, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Zero -I am interested in your reasoning behind wanting equal presentation of positive and negative reviews in this article. I have looked at the wiki pages for some other controversial books and this does not seem to be a concern. For instance The Israel Lobby page has about 1 page of positive reviews, 1.5 of mixed reviews and 5 pages of criticism. The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine has 2 lines of praise and about a page of criticism. My personal view is that if the criticism is relevant, i.e. it is published in a mainstream publication or has been made by a substantial scholar then it should be added as it gives a more accurate picture of how the book was received. Dlv999 (talk) 09:01, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Gutting of criticisms

• I have read the current article and read the prior versions going back to Dec '10/Jan '11, and I have 3 concerns I'd like to share for comments.

1)It is remarkable that the substance of the criticism section has been watered down substantially from 1/2011. I still get to read 5 lines about Chomsky and how he supported Finkelstein and perhaps Dershowitz plagiarized the book. But seems that much more important information was removed. The criticism section should focus on the actual major criticisms of the arguments and the thesis put forth by the author. What were the egregious errors made by the author, in view of the critics? Only the last 3 mini-paragraphs finally touch upon this and there is more that is not stated and would be worth adding. I would like to edit the criticisms section in a length neutral manner to add back some of the substance that was previously in this article in 1/2011 and to remove the less meaningful contents of the criticisms section.

2) A good chunk of the criticisms section is taken up by Pipes's comments. Pipes's comments are largely laudatory with some mild weaknesses pointed out. He clearly supports the book's argument and thesis. So why are Pipes's comments in the criticism section at all? It seems to be dragged in cause Porath mentioned that Pipes reviewed the book, but if we read the footnote from Porath's review he says "To mention only a few of the reviews...Daniel Pipes in Commentary (July 1984) were among the more favorable." Pipe's comments lengthen the criticism section without adding valuable criticism. If those comments are important, they should be in the positive reviews. In fact I have a RS who indicates that Pipes's comments are generally favorable (i.e., Porath).

3) This book is the epitome of controversial. It attempts to make the argument that the Palestinians are an invented people using historically unreliable and carefully selected sources and making large errors in reasoning as per multiple RS. Sorry, if that hurts someone's feelings, but the point of an encyclopedia listing is to describe a thing as it is (per verifiable RS using a NPOV). There were pages of criticisms that were so numerous (and included many RS) that the section had to be condensed because people felt the criticisms section was too long. And if these methodological weaknesses are on a topic of such political and historical significance as whether a people were invented, well then I think we have fulfilled controversial. And people cannot have it both ways. Requesting that the criticisms from RS each identifying unique weaknesses be shortened because they are soooo numerous and yet requesting the introduction not indicate the book is controversial.

A better approach would be for the author to write a book that is not as severely criticized by reputable historians across the spectrum. And since it is too late for this author and this book, then we should present the information as it exists. The book is controversial and has garnered a lot of criticism. Those are verifiable claims via RS, there seems to be an attempt to minimize those details to "protect" the book. Kitkat21 (talk) 12:33, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree with your assessment. The older edits in Dec '10/ Jan '11 offer a more accurate description of the criticisms to the book than the current article. I find also that the negative review section suffers from having being edited piecemeal on numerous occasions and could do with a re-working, prioritizing the the important points as you suggest. Dlv999 (talk) 14:24, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Why do positive reviews appear in the negative reviews section?

References to Walter Reich in The Atlantic (July 1984), Ronald Sanders in The New Republic (April 23, 1984), Bernard Gwertzman in The New York Times (May 12, 1984), and Daniel Pipes in Commentary (July 1984) all erroneously appear in the negative reviews section. This section also includes a favourable quote from the Daniel Pipes Commentary article.

The justification for their inclusion in the negative review section is the Porath review. The article as it stands claims "In that review are mentions of other criticisms published by...." the list of alleged criticisms includes the above mentioned articles.

However, the Porath review describes the above articles as positive. In the main body of the text Porath states "there have appeared during the last year and a half, in addition to many favorable reviews, a number of articles that dispute her collection and interpretation of this data." So he is stating that there have been both favorable and unfavorable reviews. The footnote associated with this statement is clear "To mention only a few of the reviews, Walter Reich in The Atlantic (July 1984), Ronald Sanders in The New Republic (April 23, 1984), Bernard Gwertzman in The New York Times (May 12, 1984), and Daniel Pipes in Commentary (July 1984) were among the more favorable."

I understand from the discussion that there has been a significant "gutting" of the negative reviews section because it was "too long". It seems strange then that despite culling legitimate criticisms of the book because of length, that there is still enough space in the negative reviews section for positive reviews and quotes.

I propose to delete the erroneously ascribed criticisms and the favourable Pipes quote. Perhaps they can be moved to the positive review section if they are deemed important enough. Also removal of the references to these articles and the Pipes quote will make the negative review section more succinct, so perhaps some of the gutted content can be restored as discussed by Kitkat21. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dlv999 (talk • contribs) 18:34, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Suggesting structural revision of this article

I have spent a little time reading the history and sources of this article. My opinion is that the current article has some fairly major flaws.

Firstly there is no actual description of the contents of the book apart from the two or three sentences at the top.

Secondly I don't don't think the current separation of positive and negative reviews accurately describes how this book was initially received, and how it's reputation has fared over the last 25 yeas since publication. I suggest altering the format to:-

-Initial Reception -Criticism and controversy

This will enable a discussion of the overwhelming initial positive reaction. Followed by serious questions being posed as to the quality of the scholarship in the book. After which the acceptance of its flaws in a wide range of major publications by eminent historians in the field and well respected scholars and journalists. Even some of those who had initially given positive reviews accepted the "shoddy" scholarship.

None of this comes through in the current format, which just gives the impression that the book came out and some people liked it while others didn't. There is no discussion of the positive reviewers later accepting the critics arguments. e.g. Pipes (an initial supporter) in a letter to the New York Review of Books following the Porath review states,

"From Time Immemorial has, broadly speaking, been received in two ways at two times. Early reviews treated her book as a serious contribution to the study of the Arab-Israeli conflict and late ones dismissed it as propaganda." and that "I would not dispute the existence of those faults. From Time Immemorial quotes carelessly, uses statistics sloppily, and ignores inconvenient facts. Much of the book is irrelevant to Miss Peters's central thesis. The author's linguistic and scholarly abilities are open to question. Excessive use of quotation marks, eccentric footnotes, and a polemical, somewhat hysterical undertone mar the book. In short, From Time Immemorial stands out as an appallingly crafted book."

Following the Porath review, Ronald Sanders, another initial supporter, admits "too much of its more than 600 pages is given over to very conventional polemics. Since then, some patient researchers have found numerous examples of sloppiness in her scholarship and an occasional tendency not to grasp the correct meaning of a context from which she has extracted a quotation. All in all, her book is marked—and marred—by an over-eagerness to score a huge and definitive polemical triumph, which has caused her too often to leave prudence and responsibility behind."

I would be interested in other peoples opinions on this proposed change. Dlv999 (talk) 21:15, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Controversial

The book is widely described as controversial in RS (e.g. [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10] more can be provided upon request).

Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch states "When using controversial, give readers enough information to know what the controversy is about. Make sure, as well, that reliable sources establish the existence of a controversy and that the term is not used to grant a fringe viewpoint undue weight."

The controversy is clearly explained in the article with enough information to kn ow what it is about. Reliable sources have been used to establish the existence of the controversy (see above and cited sources in the article). Thus all the requirements are met. This was a genuine controversy and we should just be honest about that, a similar position is being taken at The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. The manual of style does not prohibit the use of the word, only that it should be used with caution. Dlv999 (talk) 19:00, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Rather than use the word "controversial", I think it would be better to have a brief explanation of why some people found the book problematic. This would seem to be more in tune with the spirit of WP:LABEL. Something along the lines of "Initially praised by American critics, Peters' scholarship was later criticized by academics such as Norman Finkelstein. Even Peters' defenders, such as Daniel Pipes acknowledged problems with her use of sources, but the accuracy of the book's central thesis remains a subject of disagreement in academia." I'm raising this issue because a new user felt that labeling Peters' book as "controversial" without applying similar labels to works by Finkelstein, Said and Hitchens was a "double standard". I have reverted that user's changes as they go beyond what is acceptable, but simply using the word controversial in the intro without more description of the source and nature of the controversy gives cover to users with a similarly disruptive agenda. GabrielF (talk) 05:02, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Chomsky

Chomsky is not a historian.The source is his own site.What makes him notable.There are plenty of critical reviews in academic circles by experts in peer reviewed journals. We don't need him.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 20:56, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Shrike you should check your facts before you start deleting material from the encyclopedia. I have seen you deleting citations to Chomsky before when it is not appropriate. You seem to have problem with this scholar who happens to have been the number one cited scholar on the planet so deleting him as "Fringe" is beyond absurd.

Chomsky's position at MIT is Institute Professor, which is given to scholars in acknowledgement of the breadth of their research and allows them to teach and research in areas they see fit without supervision from the University.

It just so happens that Chomsky has an interest in political science and he also has happened to have supervised Political Science students. One such PhD student happens to have been Norman Finkelstein. The Chomsky passage is actually a comment on how the reaction to the book developed over time. Chomsky having an intimate knowledge of this as he was supervising the scholar (Norman Finkelstein) who originally exposed the shoddy scholarship in the work (at the time it was still being praised by the great and good). The citation is

• Noam Chomsk (2002). ""The Fate of an Honest Intellectual"". Understanding Power. The New Press. pp. 244–248, p.244. {{cite book}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)

A published work. You may remove the link which I think is a reproduction of the published work and is neither here nor there to the quality of the source itself.

Also you are in breach of 1rr, because I added the citation. You reverted me the first time you removed it and you reverted me again the second time you removed it. Kindly self revert. Dlv999 (talk) 21:19, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

No, not even a little bit. Noam Chomsky is one the better known commentators on this topic, and he is a fine source to use for this. I wont be waiting for a self-revert, if you want to challenge Chomsky go to RS/N. I would love to see that. nableezy - 21:33, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Shirke. Even assuming he is reliable and reliable on this subject matter, the first hand accounting of Chomsky -- " As soon as I heard ...I immediately sent...." -- is entirely inappropriate for an encyclopedia article. Best, --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 01:29, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

If the style is not to your liking, then rewrite it. It's relevant and well-sourced material. TippyGoomba (talk) 05:01, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Hello, I've never met you before. Are you new to Wikipedia? --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 05:18, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Regardless of the answer to that question, the point stands. If you feel the first hand accounting of Chomsky is inappropriate, then rewrite it. That isnt a justification for the wholesale removal. nableezy - 06:05, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Pleased to meet you Brew, I'm a bit of a dick myself, we should be friends. TippyGoomba (talk) 06:40, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the confirmation. Surprised Nableezy hasn't decided to chat you up. He's very involved with editors who have had prior accounts. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 16:31, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

---

Chomsky doesn't have credentials which would allow us to present his judgements on the historical truthfulness of Peters' book as authoritative. On the other hand, he is an extremely notable commentator, whose personal opinions can be reported as such... AnonMoos (talk) 06:53, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Norman Finkelstein?

It seems to me that this article is based around the "criticism" of a widely discredited source -- Norman Finkelstein. To prop up his claims, another discredited source, Noam Chomsky, is widely quoted.

This book has always retained it's renown. This article makes the presumption that the criticisms of people who are widely criticized themselves for having a heavy bias are of such merit that this book has somehow lost legitimacy. I'm suggesting a minimizing of the emphasis of such shady sources. Accipio Mitis Frux (talk) 23:59, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

The political positions of Norman Finkelstein generated controversies around him but he is not "discredited". Regarding his criticism on this book, his work was praised and not only by Chomsky and this harmed a lot the reputation of Joan Peters except in some political arenas.

More, we should not mix the legitimaty in the "political media" or the "advocacy groups" and the legitimaty in the "academic world". The only way to measure the real reknown of this book is to check if academics (here historians specialist of the Mandate and pre-Mandate period) refer to it or not. It seems not, not to say not at all.

Pluto2012 (talk) 06:40, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

(edit) Regarding Chomsky, I agree that he is given too much weight in this article and that both paragraphs where his analysis is given should be merged. Pluto2012 (talk) 06:45, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Believe me, I have seen Finkelstein completely discredited on a number of points, with his own admission. Furthermore, Professor Berel Wein fits the description of the type of academic you seek for legitimacy, and he uses this book as a key reference tool. I would like to contribute to both points while simultaneously improving the article. However, this being a sensitive realm of Wikipedia, it's going to have to wait until I can set aside a block of time to focus in and do it right. Thank you for your viewpoints. Accipio Mitis Frux (talk) 23:23, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

There is nothing at Berel Wein to suggest that said rabbi has relevant qualifications. On the contrary, essays like this (assuming "by Berel Wein" at the end is correct) display a total lack of knowledge of the subject. A real scholar would mention scholarly sources and compare them, not just cite a single polemic book by a journalist. Other stuff, like this false claim that Jerusalem had a Jewish majority in 1840 indicates anything but scholarly credentials. Zero^talk 01:16, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

this book claims a Jewish majority by 1864 & an estimate of ~49% in 1842. that doesn't make Peters' sound so far-fetched. Ridingdog (talk) 05:03, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

If Dore Gold is the only support you can find, your case is lost. By the way, see File:JerusalemPopulation.png. Zero^talk 07:56, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

See WP:NOTFORUM. Are you suggesting a change to the article? If so, can you state your change and provide sources? TippyGoomba (talk) 05:35, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Discussion of the reliability of proposed sources is a legitimate talk page topic. Zero^talk

Criticism of criticism of criticism

Is this article a formal debate? We have a book that makes huge claims, two different sections highlighting response to it, and then a "Response to reception (AKA criticism to criticism)". Why does that matter? If it was not in itself a controversy, it's not notable. Attacks on credibility and ad hominems also seem inappropriate. Bataaf van Oranje (talk) 00:38, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Yehoshua Porath

This article characterizes Yehoshua Porath as a strong critic of the book, citing a source from 1986. Porath has since changed his political views. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 06:19, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Are those two sentences related? Do you have a source? TippyGoomba (talk) 16:20, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

OK, so has anyone asked Porath what he thinks of his review in retrospect? (An interesting point anyway!) If so, then include. If not, then leave. 62.190.148.115 (talk) 10:54, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Porath (if you actually read him, as opposed to reading the people who quote him) directly admits "Most serious students of the history of Palestine would accept that the number of Arab refugees from Israel during and after 1948 claimed by Arab and UN sources—some 600,000 to 750,000—was exaggerated." (http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1986/01/16/mrs-peterss-palestine/ He has political views that color his assessment of the population exchange. Those views, are not be the views of the refugees involved, even if he concludes they should be. ArieCsilag (talk) 08:22, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

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Pipes, two years later

The cited item begins with his explanation for the two time periods. That might be of interest to readers of this article. Even more of interest is to flesh out the LETTER quote with the sentence that follows it. Pi314m (talk) 18:15, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Details to Finkelstein's views seem to crowd the lead; part of it I'm moving to where it hopefully fits better. Pi314m (talk) 19:03, 17 March 2021 (UTC)