Talk:Indrani

Clarification of names

Sachi/ Indrani is the wife of Lord Indra. Indiri is a Matrika god who is a form of goddess Parvati/Shakti. Parvati in the form of Indiri gives Shakti/Power to Lord Indra just like her other forms Brahmani, Vaishnavi, Maheswari, Kaumari, Chamunda, Varahi, and Narasimhi does. Coolwikicool (talk) 11:41, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

@Coolwikicool: Please provide citation for your claim. ShotgunMavericks (talk) 21:12, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Shachi, a Matrika?

@Redtigerxyz and Ms Sarah Welch: Are Indrani (wife of Indra) and Indrani (Matrika) the same, and if different, then did Sachi manifest as that Matrika. .💠245CMR💠.•^👥📜 07:48, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

13th century Saptamatrikas Panagal Group of Temples ruins, Sakti tradition; Indrani is the one with elephant vahana icon below her, a vahana she shares with Indra.

Same. For a reliable source, see Lochtefeld's Illustrated Encyclopedia of Hinduism. Indrani is the most common name in early and later Hindu texts, and in WP:RS. Both on its own and as one of the Saptamatrikas. The word Indrani appears, for example, in 10.86.11 and 10.86.12 in the Rigveda (इन्द्राणीमासु नारिषु सुभगामहमश्रवम्...) within the context of being Indra's wife. Indrani is also in pretty much every Purana. The texts on Saptamatrikas mention Indrani though her position in the sequence, or in some cases the number of mothers – 7 or 8 or 9 – is different. Shachi is a synonym, but uncommon (for example, is mentioned in the Book 3 of the Mahabharata, where mini version of the Ramayana is included). Given the usage, Indrani should be the title of this article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 10:20, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you very much ma'am, but I am not sure about the title change as there are sources mentioning his wife as Shachi. .💠245CMR💠.•^👥📜 11:05, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

If the Indranis are the same then why isn't Brahmani=Saravati, Vaishnavi=Lakshmi, Varahi=Bhumi, etc. .💠245CMR💠.•^👥📜 11:59, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Ms Sarah Welch, the article title should be Indrani, the popular name for the wife of Indra. However, as I understand it, Matrikas who look like the gods (whose shaktis they are), are not same as their consorts, who have the same or similar names. Indrani the matrika (the Shakta/ Tantric goddess) has a thousand eyes like Indra, holds the vajra, may be red-coloured like him, has 4-6 arms and emerges from Indra or Mahadevi. She is either combating demons in folio of the Devi Mahatmya or in sculpture, can be seen with a child and other matrikas as a group. Indrani, the wife of Indra is daughter of Puloma, is generally 2 armed, holds a flower and is seen generally with Indra. For Varaha, Bhumi is depicted as human woman and is called Varāhī (वराही); while the matrika who is boar-faced like Varaha is Vārāhī (वाराही). IMO, we should a different article for Indrani, the matrika. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:45, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

@Redtigerxyz: one article can be Shachi and another Indrani (Matrika). However it seems that both are minor goddesses and can be distinguished in this article's section 'matrika' .💠245CMR💠.•^👥📜 13:08, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

User:245CMR both are separate entities, as such should have separate articles to avoid confusion. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 13:21, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

@Redtigerxyz: Ok but for this we need a source clearly distinguishing these goddesses. The sources which I have gathered for Shachi don't mention the Matrika and the Matrika sources don't mention Shachi..💠245CMR💠.•^👥📜 13:26, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Study the scholarly sources please. I have given one already, Lochtefeld above. His article on Indrani is long, and on p. 617 he has one article under "Shachi" too where he redirects it to Indrani, by merely stating "Shachi In Hindu mythology, the wife of the god Indra, also known as Indrani. See Indrani.". Kinsley on p. 17, says "Indrani is mentioned [in Vedic literature] far more often than any other goddess of this type, but even so it is clear that she is greatly overshadowed by her husband, Indra. [...]. She is also called by the name Śaći (Shachi), which denotes power and suggests the later idea of sakti, the feminine, personified might of the gods of later Hindu mythology." Note that Kinsley is not using Saci as primary term, with "also known as Indrani". Dalal too, on p. 164, writes "Indra is married to Indrani, who is known as Shachi and Pulomaja". Dalal on p. 165–166 has an article on Indrani, who he writes is also known as "Shachi, Pulomaja, Shakrani, Mahendrani and Paulomi". So on. The WP:RS are clearly and repeatedly using the word Indrani, or Indrani as the article title. We should too. Redtigerxyz mentions 1000 eyes, but that is what Canto 288, section 1 of Mahabharata Book 3 (see William Johnson's translation, p. 121) says for Indra through an allusion to Shachi (the thousand-eyed husband of Shachi). Redtigerxyz makes a good point on Saptamatrikas. That topic is complicated, and we have a decent article on Matrikas (but there are some issues there that need rewording / clean up). Matrikas are the Shakti form, energy/power projected. This article isn't about Matrikas though. It should largely be about Indrani/Shachi/a very prominent Vedic goddess whose prominence fades with the centuries. Yes, a section should mention that Indrani is also one of the Shakti matrikas, with clarifications Redtigerxyz mentions. On your question, 245CMR, about why isn't Brahmani=Saravati etc. Well it is! (in some texts, within the context Redtigerxyz notes above); See p. 79 for example of Dalal source cited in this article, where Dalal writes, "(...) Sarasvati, also known as Shatarupa, Brahmi, Brahmani, Savitri or Gayatri (...)". Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:59, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch: Thank you very much for the sources but here, I will use Shachi to avoid confusion. Matrika topic is very complicated as Brahmani is four faced, warrior, yellow complexioned, while Sarasvati is white, harmonic and singled headed. As Redtigerxyz has quoted that Varahi is boar faced while Bhumi is human. (These goddesses share very less similarities, still they are considered to be one) As we are unable to find sources which are clearly stating them as the same or different, we should just mention the Matrika Indrani in this Sachi article. .💠245CMR💠.•^👥📜 15:50, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Mentioning the matrika in this article, would be the right approach. Indrani and other goddess can be and are represented in different shapes, with different attributes and various forms/moods/faces (e.g. the dancing Indrani artwork found in Kota, compare that to the Gupta era Indrani sculpture from Bihar and elsewhere. As another example, I have seen Varahi depicted without a boar face, but with boar vahana below her). There is no absolute consistency in iconography of Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism (or other major religions), nor is consistency required. The goddesses, including the matrika forms, are abstract ideas and concepts. Their visual expression varies regionally and by century/artists. A good summary would include and reflect this diversity, per the scholarly sources. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:33, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch and Redtigerxyz: I agree with Ms Sarah Welch, but what about the infobox image, should we use the subordinate Shachi (current one) or a more independent Indrani (I don't think it would be better as independent ones mainly represent the Matrika.) .💠245CMR💠.•^👥📜 17:02, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Added Indrani, part of Indra-Indrani set. The matrika should not be in the lead. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 05:56, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

@Redtigerxyz: Thanks a lot, but pardon me as I am unable to understand the second sentence - Should I remove the info of the Matrika? .💠245CMR💠.•^👥📜 06:23, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Copy editing

@Audreyw5678: Hello, sorry for disturbing you, but I want to discuss some things. In the Vedic texts, "Indrani" is the name used for this goddess. (The epics primarily use the name Shachi) You may see this discussion (#Shachi, a Matrika?), where a user suggested changing this article's name to Indrani. Please share your opinion. .245CMR.•^👥📜 04:10, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Or should we elaborate like this "Shachi first appears in the..........where she is invoked with the name Indrani...." .245CMR.•^👥📜 04:19, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

@245CMR: Thank you so much for letting me know; I wasn't fully aware of this. I agree that the article should be renamed 'Indrani' since it is far more common (and also mention that she is also known as 'Shachi', which is primarily used in the epics), but for now I've just updated the Vedic section so that it refers to her as 'Indrani' rather than 'Shachi'. --audreyw5678 (talk) 06:20, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

@Audreyw5678: Thank you very much..245CMR.•^👥📜 06:22, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

@Audreyw5678: Should we keep "Shachi" in the Shachi#Epic and Puranic or change it to Indrani? (It is very confusing since the common name is Indrani, but the epics primarily mention her as Shachi).245CMR.•^👥📜 06:29, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 27 May 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved/ This appears to be something where RM is unnecessary. Closing as moved based on the apparent reasons satisfying COMMONNAME. ─ The Aafī ^(talk) 01:00, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

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Shachi → Indrani –WP:common name. Admins please move this as per the following suggestions:

Indrani is the most common name in early and later Hindu texts, and in WP:RS. Both on its own and as one of the Saptamatrikas. The word Indrani appears, for example, in 10.86.11 and 10.86.12 in the Rigveda (इन्द्राणीमासु नारिषु सुभगामहमश्रवम्...) within the context of being Indra's wife. Indrani is also in pretty much every Purana. The texts on Saptamatrikas mention Indrani though her position in the sequence, or in some cases the number of mothers – 7 or 8 or 9 – is different. Shachi is a synonym, but uncommon (for example, is mentioned in the Book 3 of the Mahabharata, where mini version of the Ramayana is included). Given the usage, Indrani should be the title of this article. [............]Study the scholarly sources please. I have given one already, Lochtefeld above. His article on Indrani is long, and on p. 617 he has one article under "Shachi" too where he redirects it to Indrani, by merely stating "Shachi In Hindu mythology, the wife of the god Indra, also known as Indrani. See Indrani.". Kinsley on p. 17, says "Indrani is mentioned [in Vedic literature] far more often than any other goddess of this type, but even so it is clear that she is greatly overshadowed by her husband, Indra. [...]. She is also called by the name Śaći (Shachi), which denotes power and suggests the later idea of sakti, the feminine, personified might of the gods of later Hindu mythology." Note that Kinsley is not using Saci as primary term, with "also known as Indrani". Dalal too, on p. 164, writes "Indra is married to Indrani, who is known as Shachi and Pulomaja". Dalal on p. 165–166 has an article on Indrani, who he writes is also known as "Shachi, Pulomaja, Shakrani, Mahendrani and Paulomi". So on. The WP:RS are clearly and repeatedly using the word Indrani, or Indrani as the article title. We should too. Redtigerxyz mentions 1000 eyes, but that is what Canto 288, section 1 of Mahabharata Book 3 (see William Johnson's translation, p. 121) says for Indra through an allusion to Shachi (the thousand-eyed husband of Shachi).

— User:Ms Sarah Welch (originally answered on Talk:Shachi#Shachi, a Matrika?)

I agree with Ms Sarah Welch, the article title should be Indrani, the popular name for the wife of Indra.

— User:Redtigerxyz (originally answered on Talk:Shachi#Shachi, a Matrika?)

I agree that the article should be renamed 'Indrani' since it is far more common (and also mention that she is also known as 'Shachi', which is primarily used in the epics)[.....]

— User:Audreyw5678 (originally answered on Talk:Shachi#Copy editing

.245CMR.•^👥📜 06:31, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

@Aseleste: Can you please check this move request. This article was undergoing ce and needs to be moved asap to continue ce..245CMR.•^👥📜 05:24, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

@245CMR: It would be better to list the move on WP:RM/T instead if there is already a consensus. ~ Aseleste (t, e | c, l) 15:58, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

@Aseleste: Ok, thanks for your suggestions.245CMR.•^👥📜 17:49, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Indrani/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Whiteguru (talk · contribs) 20:04, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

@Whiteguru: Ok, .245CMR.•^👥📜 04:21, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Whiteguru I have fixed the following problems. However, I think there is some ref confusion. Please check .245CMR.•^👥📜 06:59, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

 

Starts GA Review Page. Hopefully we will start the review shortly. Thank you       --Whiteguru (talk) 20:04, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

 

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Observations

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

1. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

• Reference 1 (Kapoor) goes nowhere. Remove it.

 Done Fixed year of the citation, .245CMR.•^👥📜 06:33, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

• Reference 2 (page 17) goes to an archive error. Corrected link goes to https://web.archive.org/web/20210307214557/https://archive.org/details/hindugoddessesvi0000kins (which loops)

 Done Changed to google books.245CMR.•^👥📜 06:43, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

• I am surprised Monier-Williams gives shach as a term for speech; Vac might have been relevant or better.

There are many words for speech. Sanskrit Shach is one of them (This may be confusing as Hindi version of Shach means truth)..245CMR.•^👥📜 06:40, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Gives a whole new meaning to Sathyam vada ...

• The link for Reference 26 is to the title of the book and not the comparison to other women, such as Rohini, Arundhati, Sita, and Draupadi... (set a reference to page 29 in this book. )

If you are talking about Debroyb, then I have set up Google book search to highlight Shachi. The book doesn't provide page numbers (probably because of copyright).245CMR.•^👥📜 06:40, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Resolved

• Reference 32 and 34 go to Internet Archive error. See comment on Reference 2. Links to pp. 17–18, 156–158 are defective.

Well Ref 32 (Cush, Robinson & York 2012) and Ref 34 (Leeming & Fee 2016) links to google books. Are you talking about Kinsley references?.245CMR.•^👥📜 06:43, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

• Yes, I was referring to the Kinsley references. I see you have changed that to Google Books. We'll take that as sorted.

Resolved

1. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

• Please supply a translation after Samudra Manthan (churning of the ocean of milk.)

 Done .245CMR.•^👥📜 06:46, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

• Article stays on track with selected references to Upanishads and Puranas and does not get side-tracked.

1. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

• Neutral point of view is presented.

1. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

• Page created 29 November 2006
• Page has 634 edits by 100 editors
• Link equal to linktext = Satapatha Brahmana A piped link has identical text before and after the pipe (this needs repair)

 Done .245CMR.•^👥📜 06:46, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

• 90 day page views = 2,219 with a daily average of 24 views
• Page history does not indicate any edit-warring, page is considered stable;

1. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

• File:Indrani, AK-RAK-1995-6.jpg = Creative Commons CC0 1.0 Universal Public Domain Dedication. Caption is appropriate.
• File:6th century Indra and Indrani on elephant, Badami Hindu cave temple Karnataka.jpg = Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license. I don't know that Airavata is relevant as the description does not state "Airavata".

Airavata is relevant. It is mentioned in later sources of the iconography section..245CMR.•^👥📜 06:46, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Resolved

• File:Victory of Meghanada by RRV.jpg = in the public domain in its country of origin and other countries and areas where the copyright term is the author's life plus 100 years or fewer. Caption needs to have (Indrani) in brackets after Shachi devi's first reference in the caption.

 Done.245CMR.•^👥📜 06:54, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

• File:Krishna Uproots the Parijata Tree, Folio from a Bhagavata Purana (Ancient Stories of the Lord) LACMA M.72.1.26.jpg = released by the Los Angeles County Museum of Art www.lacma.org with its "Public Domain High Resolution Image Available" mark. (Indrani) needed in caption.

 Done.245CMR.•^👥📜 06:54, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

• File:13th century Saptamatrikas Panagal Group of Temples ruins, Sakti tradition.jpg = Creative Commons CC0 1.0 Universal Public Domain Dedication. Drop vahana and just leave it at elephant below her.

::::: Done.245CMR.•👥📜 06:54, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

• File:12th-century Vedic Indra and Indrani at Shaivism Hindu temple Hoysaleswara arts Halebidu Karnataka India (crop).jpg = Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license. Captioning is appropriate.
• File:The Hindu Godess Indrani (a); The Hindu Goddess Brahmani (b) LACMA M.91.232.11a-b (2 of 2).jpg = released by the Los Angeles County Museum of Art www.lacma.org with its "Public Domain High Resolution Image Available" mark. Caption is appropriate
• File:Indradeva.jpg = in the public domain in the United States. This applies to U.S. works where the copyright has expired, often because its first publication occurred prior to January 1, 1926, (accepted, Jaina artwork) Caption is appropriate.

1. Overall:

• Lot of work has gone into bringing this article up to date. Article is 15 years old.
• Some minor clean-up of references is needed Y
• Attention to captions on images Y
• One bug needs correction Y
• Upon completion, the article should go to GA status. Good work bringing it to this state. --Whiteguru (talk) 05:49, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

 

• 245CMR OK, thanks for all those corrections. Everything is resolved, we may now pass the article. --Whiteguru (talk) 07:30, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

 

 Passed

 

Whiteguru Thank you very much.245CMR.•^👥📜 07:42, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Desertarun (talk) 07:38, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

A sculpture of Indrani

• ... that Indrani (pictured), the queen of Hindu devas (gods), is a daughter of a demonic figure? Source: [1]
  • ALT1:... that in Hindu mythology, a king named Nahusha was turned into a snake after he desired for Indrani (pictured), the wife of the god Indra? Source: [2]

Improved to Good Article status by 245CMR (talk). Self-nominated at 12:43, 5 June 2021 (UTC).

Review:

• New – Promoted to good article the same day nominated here
• Long enough – Meets length
• Within policy – Passed a good article review
• Hook Format – Hooks are short, and appear properly formatted
• Content -Fairly interested, cited in article, and neutral
• QPQ – not sure on this, appears to have less than five submissions for DYK though. Can someone help me with this?

SecretName101 (talk) 22:45, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

@SecretName101: Sorry, I just re added the image. Please check. What is QPQ (do I have to review another DYKN)..245CMR.•^👥📜 06:49, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

@245CMR: If you have made more than five submissions to DYK, you'd have to review another submission. If this is one of your first five, you don't. The image is public domain and appears in the article, and illustrates the subject. The image gets an okay from me. SecretName101 (talk) 07:51, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

@SecretName101: Ok, thank you very much. This is my second DYKN..245CMR.•^👥📜 08:07, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

I looked at contributions log of user. Indeed, this is their second submission to DYK. Approved SecretName101 (talk) 02:21, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

I'd prefer the first hook, but either is fine. SecretName101 (talk) 02:23, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

@245CMR: Pinging so you are not in the dark that I have moved to advance this DYK nomination. SecretName101 (talk) 02:28, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

@SecretName101: ok.245CMR.•^👥📜 02:46, 8 June 2021 (UTC)