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Requested move 17 August 2018

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is a consensus that River Meon remains the primary topic for Meon. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bradv 05:17, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]


Meon, Hampshire → Meon – For the same reason as Evenlode, see Talk:Evenlode#Requested move 21 July 2018, a hatnote can be added per WP:2DABS. If not then it should be moved to Meon (hamlet). Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:57, 17 August 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Bradv 04:54, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose the target River Meon is the primaryredirect for Meon. Meon (disambiguation) In ictu oculi (talk) 06:50, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    But as pointed out in the UK rivers are generally "River Foo", not just Foo. If not then it should be renamed to Meon (hamlet) as the river is also in the Fareham district of Hampshire. Crouch, Swale (talk) 07:22, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. What something is called is only part of the consideration we give to deciding which topic is primary. A more important consideration is what topic are users most likely seeking when searching with a given term - the answer to that question is the primary topic for that term. Once the primary topic is determined, then we decide whether the article about that topic should have that term as its title, or whether the term should redirect to the article. In this case, the search term in question is "Meon". History, and current Google test results, indicate the most likely topic being sought by users searching with "meon" is River Meon. So that's the primary topic. That doesn't mean we should move that article to Meon, but it does mean Meon should remain a primary redirect to River Meon. Please note this statement from Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Redirecting_to_a_primary_topic: "The title of the primary topic article may be different from the ambiguous term. This may happen when the topic is primary for more than one term, ..." In this case the ambiguous term is "Meon". The primary topic article is the one about the river. That title of that article River Meon, is indeed different from the ambiguous term. So unless you're willing to argue that the hamlet is the much more likely sought destination by people searching with "meon", you can't argue the hamlet is the primary topic for "meon". If you're not willing to argue it's the primary topic for Meon, well, you don't have an argument for making its title Meon. Hope that makes sense. --В²C ☎ 06:19, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks Born2cycle I am well aware of having a different title and still being primary, such as Petrol being at the American title and Cars being at the singular. Rivers in the UK are usually prefixed with "River" but can still be primary for the plain term such as Thames. In this case I don't think the hamlet is particularly likely to be searched for compared to the river and I also think the river is a lot more notable, even for just the term "Meon". I'd point out the Meon is in the Domeaday Book. In this case the hamlet should be moved to Meon (hamlet) and Meon, Hampshire also redirected to the river. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:55, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move to Meon (hamlet) and change Meon to be a disambiguation page. Neither the river nor the hamlet is primary. The same goes for Evenlode.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:26, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 7 September 2018

[edit]
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus. There is a clear absence of consensus after extended time for discussion, and with opposition founded on a reasonable interpretation of WP:UKPLACE. bd2412 T 03:26, 13 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Meon, Hampshire → Meon (hamlet) – It was clearly established in the previous RM that this hamlet isn't primary for "Meon" in that case as "Meon" goes directly to the river in Hampshire, "Meon, Hampshire" should also follow it, thus the old title should also redirect to River Meon. The current title fails WP:PRECISE. The hamlet isn't that notable apart from being in the Domesday Book. If there is later consensus that the DAB should be at Meon as was argued above then this title should also redirect to the DAB. Crouch, Swale (talk) 14:20, 7 September 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 talk to me | my contributions 22:28, 17 September 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 talk to me | my contributions 21:07, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose per WP:UKPLACE. Using the district as a natural disambiguator is standard practice. Bradv 16:00, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Except when local disambiguation is needed. Crouch, Swale (talk) 14:21, 14 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    That's clearly not what WP:UKPLACE says. Here is the relevant passage:

    If disambiguation is required, and the place is in the same local government district as a larger settlement and it is unambiguously within that larger settlement itself, [[placename, town/city]] should be used. For example, Bradwell, Milton Keynes or Sailortown, Belfast.

    I referred you to that page before you made this nomination, so unless you're going to prove that Meon is not within Hampshire, this is a waste of the community's time. Bradv 15:35, 14 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Both the primary topic Meon and the hamlet are located in Hampshire, so unless you're disputing that then further disambiguation is required here, per WP:PLACEDAB

    Generic parenthetical disambiguating tags as used for most Wikipedia articles are used only occasionally for geographic names (as in Wolin (town), where no regional tag would be sufficient to distinguish the town from the island of Wolin)

    this convention was established at Talk:Corfe Castle (village)#Requested move 12 April 2014 and is consistent with Heathrow/Heathrow, London and Heathrow (hamlet). Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:21, 14 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I really doubt that Meon, Hampshire referring to the town would cause the same level of confusion that would result if Heathrow, London didn't point to the airport. This disambiguation is not necessary. Bradv 16:26, 14 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Not the same level of confusion but still the same principal. To add to you're previous argument, if a form of disambiguation fails, we don't use it anyway but we use a more specific or different form. I asked if disambiguation of this article was required in the first RM and all but 1 appeared to argue that the river was primary, 1 (Amakuru) argued that neither were primary and to move this to "Meon (hamlet)" but no one argued that this should be at the base name, therefore meaning disambiguation from the Hampshire river is required. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:00, 14 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    The PLACEDAB example is not equivalent to this case. The problem identified in the quote was that Wikipedia has articles on an island and a town which are both identified only as "Wolin" — hence the need for disambiguation. Here we have one article called "River Meon" and one called "Meon, Hampshire" — so no change is needed since they're already distinctly titled and it's clear which is which. ╠╣uw [talk] 10:09, 28 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose WP:NATURALDISAMBIGUATION is preferable here. Rreagan007 (talk) 17:16, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:NATURALDISAMBIGUATION is not the case here, "Meon, Hampshire" is not a term, its an independent qualifier, see the discussion at Talk:Corfe Castle (village)#Requested move 12 April 2014. Unlike USPLACE, UKPLACE is solely for disambiguation and not COMMONNAME. WP:PLACEDAB gives Wolin/Wolin (town) as an example. The current title would imply that the river isn't in Hampshire. See also River Avon for how rivers are disambiguated. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:25, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is consistent with Heathrow (hamlet) that was moved for the same reason, that Heathrow redirects to the airport also in London. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:22, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. It's fairly obvious that WP:NATURALDIS does not apply if the term in question doesn't actually disambiguate. The proposed move would bring this into line with WP:PRECISE  — Amakuru (talk) 20:10, 14 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - if the river was decided to be the primary topic and both are in Hampshire, then arguing that "Meon, Hampshire" points to the hamlet makes no sense. Based on this information, I agree with Amakuru and Crouch, Swale that WP:NATURALDIS does not apply. --Gonnym (talk) 23:36, 17 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    The current term is comma, rather than natural disambiguation anyway. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:56, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Bradv and for consistency with UKPLACE. It's unclear from the nomination why this change is needed. Is the idea that since the river is the primary use of "Meon", that "Meon, Hampshire" should redirect to the river as well? If so, that seems entirely unnecessary — that's not how rivers are commonly identified.

    Put another way, it seems very unlikely that users will look for the river by searching specifically for "Meon, Hampshire", or that they'd come to "Meon, Hampshire" and be astonished to discover that they're reached the article on the village instead of the river. Without a compelling reason to violate the convention, retaining the current title is preferable. ╠╣uw [talk] 15:27, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    @Huwmanbeing: Neither the river are known as "Meon, Hampshire" just as neither the country nor the US state are called "Georgia (state)". The proposed change is consistent with Heathrow, London/Heathrow (hamlet) and Corfe Castle (village). The hamlet is know as "Meon" while the river "River Meon" with "Meon" being primary for the river, it makes no sense to use "Hampshire" to disambiguate from something else in Hampshire. No one would search for "Meon, Hampshire" to distinguish it from the river because it pretty obviously doesn't distinguish. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:49, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
But if the river is not known as "Meon, Hampshire", then I don't see why it's necessary to reserve that title as a redirect to the river. The earlier proposal only affirmed that the river is the primary topic for the base name "Meon", not that it was also the primary topic for the name "Meon, Hampshire". It's still unclear why you believe it needs to redirect to the river. UKPLACE is one reason it should not: like many conventions, it exists in part to bring consistency to the titling of the large set of articles it covers, and the current title is consistent with that, and clear for our readers. I'm afraid I just don't see what problem this nomination seeks to solve.

(BTW, this seems to be the identical situation we ran into earlier with the rejected Harvard proposal: the fact that a thing is within a polity does not necessarily mean that it should lay claim to the name "Thing, Polity".) ╠╣uw [talk] 17:35, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

99.9% of places in the UK use the county or more specific to disambiguate simply due to the fact that this only rarely arrises. It is not identical to Harvard as USPLACE is apparently used as part of the name, UKPLACE isn't (as I even admitted in that discussion). The 2014 RM at Talk:Corfe Castle (village)#Requested move 12 April 2014 gives another UK example where local distinction is needed (both are called "Corfe Castle" and both are in Dorset), why don't you think that this applies here. The "Thing, Polity" is a US not a UK thing, if both things are in "Polity" then being more specific is needed. In addition to the point about "Meon" and "Meon, Hampshire", notice that rivers in Hampshire (Category:Rivers of Hampshire) are generally at "River Foo" and at "River Foo, Hampshire (or more specific) such as River Avon, Hampshire. So my point about the river being primary for "Meon" would equally apply there. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:42, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A few points:
  • I mentioned the Harvard connection because in both cases you're insisting that a form no reader would normally use to find a thing should nevertheless redirect to that thing (instead of pointing to the article that the title more likely refers to). You don't show why that's necessary. How does that benefit the reader?
  • Regarding the question, "Why doesn't the Corfe Castle precedent apply?", it's because it's not equivalent. In that case there were two items in Dorset both known identically as "Corfe Castle" — one an actual castle and one a village. Clarification as to which was which was therefore necessary. In this case we already have that clarification in place: one item named "River Meon" and one "Meon, Hampshire". It's already clear which of the two is the river.
  • Regarding River Avon, Hampshire, it's also not equivalent because there are many things called "River Avon" — hence the county clarifier. There is, so far as I can determine, only one "River Meon", so no clarifier is needed.
  • If two similarly-named things happen to be in the same county, no, one does not necessarily need to be more specific if their titles are already distinct and clear. And in this case they are.
╠╣uw [talk] 10:04, 28 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • River Meon is clear, but Meon, Hampshire is not clear. It could refer to either the river or the hamlet. Or, arguably, even to East Meon and West Meon. The fact that the river has "River" on the front does not mean it is no longer a likely target for "Meon, Hampshire". And as I've shown below, that term actually refers primarily to the valley in which river sits, a topic best covered by the river article.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:27, 28 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Is there evidence that the river is the likely target of Meon, Hampshire? Do we know if people coming directly to Meon, Hampshire are instead looking for the River Meon? I just ran a search at Google for "Meon, Hampshire" -Wikipedia and find almost no references to the river... ╠╣uw [talk] 12:56, 28 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    As I pointed out "Meon, Hampshire" isn't a term just as "Georgia (state)" isn't. And as pointed out you could probably easily argue that someone who bothers to qualify it with state is distinguishing from the country but as there are no other Meons in England there's no reason to. In response to the Corfe Castle example see Heathrow and Heathrow, London and Heathrow (hamlet). Nagano, Nagano was moved to Nagano (city) as a result of Talk:Nagano (city)#Requested move 18 July 2018. The fact that the river is primary for just "Meon" makes the difference between "Meon, Hampshire" and "River Meon" moot. However there is a plant species and Méon in France so maybe the DAB should be at the base name (as argued by Amakuru) in which case then the "Hampshire" disambiguator would be useful. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:04, 28 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • In this case it would be from the quotation above

    Generic parenthetical disambiguating tags as used for most Wikipedia articles are used only occasionally for geographic names (as in Meon (hamlet), where no regional tag would be sufficient to distinguish the town from the river of which is primary for Meon)

    . Crouch, Swale (talk) 06:57, 28 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment A simple Google search reveals results that are almost exclusively related to either the Meon valley, (see for example [3], which has a picture of a village which isn't this one, captioned "Meon, Hampshire") or the villages of East Meon and West Meon. The idea that this tiny hamlet, barely even seen on the map, and nowhere near the river or the Meon valley, is primary compared with any other usage of "Meon, Hampshire" is a little silly.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:08, 28 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    And the fact that the category was added to the hamlet on Commons which I fixed after renaming the category. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:13, 28 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, it gives me great pause to disagree with Amakuru, but I really see no evidence that the river is commonly referred to as "Meon, Hampshire", while I'm sure the hamlet is. In other words, the primary topic of "Meon, Hampshire" is the hamlet. The current title is perfect. --В²C ☎ 17:08, 10 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    The hamlet is not called "Meon, Hampshire" anymore than the planet is called "Mercury (planet)", the ", Hampshire" isn't part of either place name, its just disambiguation. Per WP:PDAB we don't give qualified terms PTs, especially when the unqualified has a different one. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:12, 10 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    That's not what WP:PDAB says; that former guideline is former because it did not have consensus support. I, for one, support partially disambiguated titles when the topic is the most likely to be sought with that name. Maybe the hamlet is not commonly called "Meon, Hampshire", but that's standard disambiguation for it on WP, and arguing against its use for the hamlet's title because it might refer to the river is, frankly, lame. --В²C ☎ 17:53, 10 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't see why its likely people would search for "Meon, Hampshire" as there are no other "Meon"s in England. You might be right in arguing that the self titled album is likely to be searched for with "Madonna (album)" (but doesn't mean it should be moved there) due to the fact people will be aware of the entertainer themselves but that's unlikely with Meon. If anything they might qualify it with hamlet. Trying to establish PTs for incomplete terms (except for clear cut cases) just creates more complication and confusion for readers and editors and benefits hardly anyone. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:06, 10 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    They are likely to not search for it as just Meon if they know, say from a previous search, that Meon redirects to the river. Adding ", district name" is the most WP:NATURAL disambiguation available to us, which is generally preferable to the parenthetic disambiguation proposed here. We disagree about PT's for PDABS - an unsettled issue on WP. --В²C ☎ 18:18, 10 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:NATURAL specifies adding another term, as we are qualifying it with Hampshire (the comma indicates that the "Hampshire" is an independent modifier) we are just moving from comma to brackets, not natural to brackets. WP:ATDAB specifies that first natural disambiguation is preferred, then commas/brackets, it doesn't appear to have a large bias for comma over brackets, just that it favours natural over comma and brackets. I don't entirely disagree with PDAB, but I think its clear that its unsuitable in this situation. We could move Cincinnati, California to Cincinnati, United States and the majority of readers would still manage to find the city in Ohio but that would still fail WP:PRECISE. If we decided to make the country the primary topic for "Georgia" then we would probably still redirect "Georgia (state) to the DAB, why? because the country is not as often refereed to as a state and anyone who bothers to enter "Georgia (state)" is highly likely to be distinguishing from the country, while in this case both river and hamlet are entirely in Hampshire. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:30, 10 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:NATURAL distinguishes "comma-separated" as well as "parenthetic" from "natural". Both comma-separated (especially for place names) and natural are preferred over "parenthetic", Wikipedia's standard disambiguation technique when none of the other solutions lead to an optimal article title. Comma-separated is not the ideal title, but in this case is optimal. --В²C ☎ 20:01, 10 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    @Born2cycle: thank you for your respectful comment above about having pause in disagreeing with me. I'm sure I'm not always right, but I do try to look at these things objectively, as I'm sure you do too. In this case I am going to remain respectfully in disagreement with you. Notwithstanding the river, it is clear that the primary Meon in Hampshire is not this tiny hamlet which barely appears in sources at all, it is the area to the north of Southampton which surrounds the Meon river - a valley, a pair of villages (East Meon and West Meon) and indeed the river itself. The Guardian article I mention above,[4] should give a good indication of what I'm talking about. Because of that, a disambiguation page would appear to serve our readers best in this case. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 20:23, 10 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think the 3 different uses are significantly preferred, just as tiebreakers. In this case the current title is not optimal as far as I can see as it doesn't disambiguate. Most settlements tend not to use natural disambiguation as they rarely have sufficiently common alternative names, so commadias is optimal (though there is Minster-in-Thanet). Likewise most Scottish islands are disambiguated by their location Wiay, Skye and Flotta, Shetland for example rather than "(island)" as most are only ambiguous with other islands, although Jura, Scotland is an exception. Why is Jura not moved to Jura (island)? because we should be consistent with other islands and settlements in Scotland, but that doesn't mean we can't use Foo (island) if local disambiguation is required, that logic would apply to Meon, which is a rare exception. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:25, 10 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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