Talk:William Jessop

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Possible confusion on rails and flanges

The article contained the following text:

In 1790, he founded (with fellow engineer Benjamin Outram) the Butterley Iron Works in Derbyshire to manufacture (amongst other things) cast-iron edge rails – a design Jessop had used successfully with flanged wheels on a horse-drawn railway scheme for coal wagons in Loughborough, Leicestershire (1789).

According to our own article Rail transport, edge rails have their own flanges and are used with unflanged wheels. This is backed up by our article Benjamin Outram, which picks him out as a proponent of this form of early railway, without actually using the term edge rail. This probably needs more investigation with original sources, but for now I'm removing the possible error by removing the words with flanged wheels from the above text. -- Chris j wood 13:18, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The more I dig, the more confused I get. A google search for 'edge rail' doesn't reveal anything much useful from other sources, but did throw up another reference in WP. Our article Wagonway makes a distiction between plate-rails (where the flange is on the rail) and edge-rails (where the flange is on the wheel). This makes this article right, and Rail transport wrong. Still digging, but if anybody knows a definative source, I'd be grateful. -- Chris j wood 13:27, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Interestingly Jessop built the Kilmarnock and Troon Railway, which was authorised in 1808 and opened in 1812, to 4ft gauge, using plate rails. He then built colliery extensions, which opened in 1818 to 3ft4in gauge using edge rails, which are described (H.G. Lewin, 1925) as fish bellied rails set in iron chairs spiked to stone sleepers.Pyrotec 10:45, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your use of terminology. It is possible that I am guilty of causing confusion; if so, I must apologise, but what I removed was certainly also wrong. I tried to correct what I found, but evidently did not find all the relevant articles. The earliest English railways seem to have had the flange on the wheel, and these go back to the 1600s, this is much the same as the modern system, except that the rails were of wood not iron. These rails were of wood; the practice of laying iron plates on the rails belongs to about the 1770s. However shortly after that a new system was introduced with the flange on a cast iron rail. The early locomotive hauled railways used soemthing much like the modern system. I am not clear when rolled wrought iron rails replaced cast iron plates. The principal sources on the subject are books: M. T. J. Lewis, Early wooden railways (c.1970) Bertram, Stone blocks and iron rails The subject is also discussed in Hadfield and Skempton, William Jessop: Engineer (David & Charles, Newton Abbot 1979, and probably in a more recent biography of Benjamin Outram - I think I have a copy but cannot see it. John Curr is also credited with a rail innovation. See R. A. Mott, 'Tramways of the eighteenth century and the originator, John Curr' Trans Newcomen Soc 42 (1969-70), 1-23. I hope this will provdide enough for you to resolve the issue Peterkingiron 22:44, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fish-Belly rails

Jessop's edge rails were also known as fish-belly rails because of their curved shape underneath: here is one online reference which contains a drawing: [1] http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/2-track/02track1.htm I actually found some five-footers in my garden in Pembrokeshire, buried amongst some 200 year old coal mining debris - should I upload a photo? Sasha 22:37, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was consensus for move as primary topic. Thus, DAB page at William Jessop→William Jessop (disambiguation); William Jessop (engineer)→William Jessop; and William Jessop (disambigation) deleted under CSD R3.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 02:54, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

William Jessop (engineer) → William Jessop — The article was called "William Jessop" until some one move it to make way for a dab page to include two leaders of a LDS spliter group. William Jessop was extremely notable as a canal engineer in UK. The article "William Jessop" ought thus to refer to him. I tried to reverse the move but could not, though I did manage to move the dab page to William Jessop (disambigation) to make way for the move back. Peterkingiron (talk) 22:52, 13 March 2009 (UTC) — Peterkingiron (talk) 22:52, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

Support. This subject is the primary meaning and the only William Jessop at William Jessop (disambigation). — AjaxSmack 16:13, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support. ditto. Station1 (talk) 04:05, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fine with me (I moved it originally after creating the two articles of people of the same name). Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 02:55, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Comment the dab page spelled with a typo, "disambiguation" is now no longer a simple redirect, because a bot fixed the double redirect. William Jessop (disambiguation) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) 76.66.201.179 (talk) 00:41, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.