Template talk:Fascism/Archives/2023/October

Excess names

Lots of names in the "People" part of the template have articles which do not call them fascists. As the template is very large, I am going to boldly remove some of them, but obviously if there isn't consensus they can be returned.

• I've started with Fejzi Alizoti, part of the Albanian government for decades from WWI, who was briefly a fascist collaborator but not a fascist.
• I'm also removing Jean-Bosco Barayagwiza, whose article does not include the word fascism. If he is belongs here, that article should be edited first and then he could be included. The same is true of Gnassingbé Eyadéma, Mobutu Sese Seko, Francisco Macías Nguema (dictators), Robert Kajuga (Interahamwe), Protais Mpiranya, Hassan Ngeze, Ildéphonse Nizeyimana, Callixte Nzabonimana, Georges Rutaganda (Rwandan genocidaires).

BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:49, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

• Most of the names under Asia seem likewise out of place. I'm leaving the following but welcome other editors' views: Abba Ahimeir might fit but he is quite a non-noteworthy figure historically. I'm doubtful about Dariush Forouhar, Rashid Ali al-Gaylani, Abd al-Qadir al-Husayni, Abol-Ghasem Kashani, Syngman Rhee. I'm removing the following: Hasan Arfa was a Pahlavi soldier and doesn't appear to have been a fascist; other Iranians here that don't seem to be fascist include Zia ol Din Tabatabaee, Dariush Homayoon. Chen Gongbo and Chiang Kai-shek were nationalist but not fascist. Andrés Soriano seems to be here totally arbitrarily. There's not enough in Yun Chi-young's article to justify fascism or noteworthiness. BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:50, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
• Moving on to Northern Europe, am removing the following, who don't appear justified per their pages: Wäinö Aaltonen, Reino Ala-Kulju (possibly fascist although his page doesn't say so, but not noteworthy enough), Väinö Auer, David Mitford, 2nd Baron Redesdale (flirted with fascism, but not significant enough in the story of fascism to include), Yrjö Kilpeläinen, Yrjö Kilpinen, Juhani Konkka, John Mackie (Scottish Unionist politician) (too insignificant), J. J. Mikkola. I'm not removing the following, but would be curious about other editors' view: Thomas F. O'Higgins (sympathetic to fascism for a while). BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:12, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
• Same for Eastern Europe. Removing: Dmytro Klyachkivsky, Yevhen Konovalets, Vasyl Kuk, Andriy Melnyk (officer), Roman Shukhevych, Slavko Štancer, Mykola Stsiborskyi, Shefqet Vërlaci - all either not verifiable from their articles and/or not noteworthy enough in relation to the story of fascism. BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:55, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

@BobFromBrockley: Isn't the Hutu Power movement often considered fascist? If that's not the case, then feel free to go through with removing them.

However, I think Abba Ahimeir should stay, as he was the founder of the Revisionist Maximalist movement and leader of Brit HaBirionim, a fascist movement in Mandatory Palestine. In addition, Dmytro Klyachkivsky was verifiably part of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, a fascist paramilitary formed as part of OUN-B and was responsible for the ethnic cleansing of Poles from Volhynia. I'd say that's pretty noteworthy. Besides that, the infobox is for articles on the subject of fascism and fascists. As long as they were notable, at least in part, for involvement in fascist movements, it's enough for them to be included. Roman Shukhevych's article also has sources for him being a leader of the UPA and collaborating with the Nazis. Mykola Stsiborskyi was the chief theorist of the OUN before its split, and stated that he admired Mussolini's fascism and stated that he was a national syndicalist. Juhani Konkka founded the National Socialist Union of Finland with Yrjö Ruutu. I think they at least are noteworthy enough to remain on the list.

There are some I'm less sure about. Hasan Arfa was apparently the leader of the Aria Party, though his page needs more explanation on that. Francisco Macías Nguema was a self-described "Hitlerian-Marxist" who admired Adolf Hitler and Francisco Franco before committing genocide against the Bubi minority and intellectuals. However, it should be noted that his words and actions were so erratic in general that it's a bit difficult to tell for sure what he meant when he said things like that. I do think his article should at least be added to the related articles section. As for the rest, feel free to remove them. ~Chara of Arctic Circle System (talk) 18:50, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

I think there's two issues: (1) if someone is uncontroversially described as a fascist, and (2) if someone is noteworthy enough to be in the list (which is obviously never going to be an exhaustive list of all fascists).

• Hutu Power might meet no.2 but I'm not sure it meets no.1: I have no strong feelings on this, but a quick search suggests to me that it isn't widely described as fascist (this opinion piece is the only thing that looks like an RS), and certainly our current article does not call it that. If it is, somebody needs to edit our related pages with sources before we can include it here I think.
• Abba Ahimeir fits the fascism depiction, but my concern was how noteworthy he is; if Brit HaBirionim is indeed important he should stay. Same with Juhani Konkka.
• Roman Shukhevych's article says he collaborated with the Nazis, but many collaborators were Nazis. His article doesn't call him a fascist. The UPA article has fascist in the infobox but no source, but it would be synthesis to extend that to him without a source. Mykola Stsiborskyi admired fascism but was not himself a fascist - I just edited his article based on the primary source cited, but his article could do with secondary sources, especially for such a contentious label. BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:58, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

@BobFromBrockley: If Abba Ahimeir and Juhani Konkka aren't important enough to meet notability guidelines, then the talk page for this template isn't the best place to resolve that, I'd say. ~Strawberry of Arctic Circle System (talk) 19:38, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I think that Miklos Horthy sholdn'n be on the list either, he attacked Hungary fascist movement hard and be described as a national conservativer more often. Weirongn (talk) 01:11, 10 October 2023 (UTC)