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RFC Jewish Chronicle

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The reliability of the Jewish Chronicle is:

• Option 1: Generally reliable
• Option 2: Additional considerations
• Option 3: Generally unreliable
• Option 4: Deprecate

RFCbefore, Previous RFC Selfstudier (talk) 09:09, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Note (Jewish Chronicle)

Existing RSP entry is green with the following commentary:

"There is consensus that The Jewish Chronicle is generally reliable for news, particularly in its pre-2010 reporting. There is no consensus on whether The Jewish Chronicle is reliable for topics related to the British Left, Muslims, Islam, and Palestine/Palestinians; there is also a rough consensus it is biased in these topics. Where used, in-text attribution is recommended for its coverage of these topics."

Editors may wish to comment on these issues specifically. Selfstudier (talk) 09:12, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Just a reminder but it's not technically possible to deprecate a source for a specific are of content and also a deprecated source is not more unreliable than an unreliable source. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:07, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, there are clear wording differences between WP:GUNREL and WP:DEPREC, beyond the availability of technical means for the latter. Andreas JN466 12:28, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm just summarising Deprecated sources should not be considered to be either unique or uniquely unreliable. WP:DEPREC itself is a short summary of WP:DEPRECATE, but this is better discuss in the discussion section. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:40, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Survey (Jewish Chronicle)

• Option 2 in general, Option 3 for WP:A/I/PIA area. The recent scandal gives rise to significant doubts over editorial control and practices which taken together with the lack of transparency over ownership and recent checkered history suggests we should not consider this source reliable without inline attribution at a minimum and unreliable for matters relating to the Israeli Palestinian conflict.Selfstudier (talk) 09:31, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

  You didn't seem concerned about funding in the case of Al Jazeera; you wrote I am not persuaded that any bias produced as a result of Qatari funding. Why the different approach here? In this case there could be donors or lenders we don't know about (which isn't uncommon for news orgs), but what could be worse than being owned by an absolute monarchy? — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 16:59, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

  Please take your irrelevancies elsewhere, the discussion section maybe. Selfstudier (talk) 17:13, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

  It's relevant because holding Jewish publications to a different standard would bias the topic area. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 20:43, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

  Al Jazeera is somewhat of a special case, as it has complete editorial independence despite being state-funded (a setup similar to the BBC). CVDX (talk) 13:20, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

  Almost all news orgs claim editorial independence, including RT for example. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 16:10, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

  Repeats comment about irrelevancies. Selfstudier (talk) 16:15, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3 for Muslims, the British left and Israel/Palestine since 2016, option 3 for its entire output since 2020. The JC has had a long history of false reporting on Muslims, the British Left and Israel/Palestine (a complex of topics which frequently intersect). In the post 2010 period the JC frequently libelled individuals and published false information on these topics. Individuals were forced to resort to complaints to IPSO in order to get corrections published. Professor of Journalism Brian Cathcart writes the publication of falsehoods has been a characteristic of the paper’s journalism for years. The paper broke IPSO's code 41 times between 2018 and 2023, an astounding number for a small weekly paper, and paid out in at least four libel cases. All were against Muslims or people on the British left.

IPSO lamented the paper's lack of cooperation with complaints in very strong terms The Committee expressed significant concerns about the newspaper’s handling of this complaint. The newspaper had failed, on a number of occasions, to answer questions put to it by IPSO and it was regrettable the newspaper’s responses had been delayed. The Committee considered that the publication’s conduct during IPSO’s investigation was unacceptable. Given the difficulty of obtaining corrections from the paper in cases where individuals are named, it is likely a large amount of false information has also been published where nobody is named, so the possibility of libel actions is eliminated, and the chance of IPSO cases is significantly reduced.

The 2020 change of ownership, meaning nobody actually knows who owns the paper, combined with the false stories on Gaza, suggest we should not use the paper in any capacity until the question of ownership is clarified.Boynamedsue (talk) 09:52, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Just in addition to this, I feel, having read others' comments, a date of 2010 for the beginning of the qualification on reliability regarding political topics may also be valid, given that marked the period where Stephen Pollard took over. I would certainly consider extending it back that far in terms of BLP. However, the real collapse in standards occurred from 2015.--Boynamedsue (talk) 06:21, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 in general, Option 3/4 for WP:A/I/PIA area (Option 4 for WP:A/I/PIA coverage from 2024 going forward, given this year's string of fabrications and widespread concerns about journalistic integrity voiced in both the Israeli and international press). --Andreas JN466 11:17, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

  Explanation of Option 2 "additional considerations", as requested below:

  The current RSP entry says, There is no consensus on whether The Jewish Chronicle is reliable for topics related to the British Left, Muslims, Islam, and Palestine/Palestinians; there is also a rough consensus it is biased in these topics. Where used, in-text attribution is recommended for its coverage of these topics.

  Per Option 2, in-text attribution should in my view not just be recommended but required for any topics that are related to "the British Left, Muslims, Islam, and Palestine/Palestinians" but do not fall under WP:A/I/PIA. This should also apply more generally to assertions and allegations of antisemitism that do not fall under WP:A/I/PIA. Andreas JN466 07:14, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  I also support comments by others that journalistic standards at the Jewish Chronicle appear to have dropped lower and lower over the past 20 years, with step changes in 2008, 2015 and after the change in ownership in 2020. Andreas JN466 11:06, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

• Option 4: major scandal for a prominent newspaper which should be immediately deprecated for the following reasons:

1-Unknown owners who are likely right-wing ideologues;

2-Publication of fabricated stories supporting Israeli premier Netanyahu's narratives;

3-Allowance of an unknown freelance journalist who came "out of nowhere" to write these fabricated stories under a pseudonym and with a falsified resume

4-The fired freelance journalist then making death threats to an Israeli reporter due to the revealing of their identity

5-The resignation of the newspaper's most prominent columnists who have also stated that the JC's editorial line had become "sensationalist" and "unbalanced". Makeandtoss (talk) 11:17, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

These issues all relate to the period from 2020 to now. If it’s technically possible to deprecate for a specific timeframe only, is it right to assume you would argue for deprecating for this period specifically? BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:20, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

I can continue mentioning how the JC was bought by right-wing owners in 2008 and how the newspaper played a prominent role in slandering pro-Palestinian voices as antisemitic including UK Labor Party former leader Jeremy Corbyn, and how it promoted the new antisemitism concept which included anti-Zionism. Also notable that JC had too many IPO violations since 2018. [1] Makeandtoss (talk) 12:58, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

There was no change of ownership in 2008. BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:34, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

My bad, editorship* as mentioned in MEE article. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:53, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

1. Are there any other sources deprecated because of the suspected political leanings of their owners? If not, are we going to start doing this? I might have some suggestions.

2 & 3. are the points with substance to my mind. However, the JC have retracted the stories and cut ties with the writer, admitted the mistake and said they are reviewing their procedures for dealing with freelance journalists. This is substantially the same procedure as the Guardian announced faced with a very similar situation.

4. It's baffling that you think that this has bearing on the Jewish Chronicle's reliability.

5. Columnists resigning is not a criterion of reliability or unreliability. Nor, for that matter, is being "unbalanced". Samuelshraga (talk) 08:07, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

There really is a world of difference between

• https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/26/open-door-column-note-to-readers

and

• https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/conclusion-of-jewish-chronicle-investigation-into-elon-perry-daaqr8b9

Do please read them both and compare. Andreas JN466 08:21, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree re no.4. Re no.5, though, I think columnists resigning can be an indicator of unreliability if their reasons for resigning relate to criteria of reliability. Whereas some of the resigners (e.g. John Ware) have only mentioned a dislike of the editor's politics, most have mentioned being uncomfortable with the lack of transparency about ownership and many have expressed other reliability concerns, as the links already on this page show. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:59, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

@Bobfrombrockley I agree with you that some specific complaints of the columnists are relevant - and they are discussed by others, as far as I see the relevant concerns relate to the identity of the owners (see again point 1). The fact that columnists resigned in and of itself is not. And the complaints brought by @Makeandtoss - that resigning columnists (stated that the JC's editorial line had become "sensationalist" and "unbalanced" are not germane to this discussion. Samuelshraga (talk) 10:37, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1 pre-2015, Option 2 in general afterwards, Option 3 for WP:A/I/PIA area since 2020. This isn't about the current event, rather the current event appears to be the culmination of issues that have been growing for several years. Multiple external sources have commented on this, as have columnists that have recently ended their association with the paper. Oppose 4 in general. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:18, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1 pre-2015, option 2 post-2015. It would be insane to deprecate a 183 year old publication, so strongly oppose option 4. I have argued in the talk section above that the IPSO breaches in the 2015-20 period should give rise to caution but not lead to option 3. I would urge those who are swayed by these breaches to read the actual rulings; you will find a couple of serious errors but the majority are fairly trivial and have been more than adequately corrected. I would argue against a generally unreliable status for antisemitism for that period because, prior to Jewish News taking off, the JC was the only UK Jewish paper and therefore the only outlet giving deep coverage to UK antisemitism. Designating it unusable means the whole topic can only be covered in a skewed way. I would therefore urge a formulation such as: “use with caution and attribution” for that topic in that period. Since 2020, the case for General unreliability, especially on Israel/Palestine, is strong, but even here we should explicitly note that there will be exceptions for authoritative contributors such as those who have resigned (eg Anshel Pfeiffer, Colin Shindler). BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:17, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

  the only outlet giving deep coverage to UK antisemitism

  The problem is that they make all sorts of highly dubious accusations of antisemitism, many of which appear to be politically motivated (i.e., in order to attack people who criticize Israel's treatment of the Palestinians). If the "deep coverage" is dishonest, then using it will not improve Wikipedia. -Thucydides411 (talk) 08:05, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

  That may be your opinion but there are no RSs saying that as far as I know. If we had restrictions on

  BLP and/or ARBPIA in the relevant period, that would address that risk anyway. If we make them generally option 3, then we avoid the risk but also lose a lot of potential to cover antisemitism in UK society. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:56, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1 pre-2015, option 2 post-2015 Bobfrombrockley really saved me a lot of typing. I also want to emphasize that we really need to be treating most sources, even our top sources like WSJ, NYT etc as green to yellow anytime we are treading into areas where bias etc could come into play. While fundamental facts (times, dates, etc) typically are objective, even good sources can have some bias in how much emphasis they put into certain aspects of a topic or even that they chose to cover a topic at all. This also applies when we look at how much scrutiny is applied to various sources. Outside of the false reports issue (which is hardly unique to this source) are they under the microscope because they are much different than other sources or because their politics disagree with other sources? As a rule we need to put less stock in "the color of a source" and more thought into what the source is claiming and what evidence they present for the claim. Springee (talk) 13:40, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Objectively speaking, they produce far more false reports than other sources. Including sources we deprecate, like the Daily Mail.Boynamedsue (talk) 13:44, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1 pre-2015, Option 2 in general afterwards, Option 3 for WP:A/I/PIA area since 2020 as per ActivelyDisinterested. The Jewish Chronicle has issues stemming from its recent change in ownership, but those issues are much more clearly problematic, and more evidenced in third-party sources, for Israel/Palestine-related issues then issues outside that topic area. Loki (talk) 18:15, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1 pre-2015, Option 2 in general afterwards, Option 3/4 for WP:A/I/PIA area, muslims, and the british left, especially after 2020 seems they used to do good work tho ive seen the ridiculous scandals in the wake of continuing israel palestine conflict. agree for same reasons as loki, springee, hope the org becomes more transparent soon. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 18:28, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 in general, Option 3 for muslims and the British left, Option 3/4 for WP:A/I/PIA area - Based on the provided background and latest developments, and considering JC's longstanding IPSO issues, undisclosed ownership that complicates the evaluation of the publication's impartiality, questionable editorial standards, etc etc. I've been following the gargantuan discussion preluding this RfC. These issues are not recent or limited to their latest scandal. - Ïvana (talk) 18:56, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3 from 2015 onwards. No opinion for 2014 or earlier. In answer to queries about the year: 2015 was the year a general campaign of false allegations of antisemitism was launched against the British left and against Jeremy Corbyn in particular. Daveosaurus (talk) 04:14, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  What is your source for the JC having "launched" a "general campaign" in 2015? This was not mentioned in the previous discussion. If the JC actually engaged in a campaign at this time, then a secondary source would say so. I do see that a 2015 JC front-page editorial made claims of antisemitism about Corbyn. But an editorial (even an inaccurate one -- it's an editorial!) is not what means when one says a newspaper has a "general campaign of false allegations", which suggests misconduct. SamuelRiv (talk) 04:38, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

It wasn't the JC in particular it was the British press in general. Restricting the Option 3 to 2015 onwards leaves earlier JC journalism able to be used if people familiar with the history of the paper consider it reliable. Daveosaurus (talk) 05:19, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

To clarify then, Davesaurus, you think the British press in general should be option 3 after 2015? BobFromBrockley (talk) 07:05, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

• Option 4. The unreliability and political bias of the JC has a long history. Their more recent opaque ownership and financing raises yet further concerns. By 2023 Brian Cathcart calculated that over the previous 5 years the JC had broke the IPSO code an astonishing 41 times* and had lost, or been forced to settle, at least four libel cases. There have been further cases since. This is all the more remarkable, because it has a relatively small circulation. By that metric the JC is substantially worse than other notoriously unreliable publications such as the Daily Mail which Wikipedia deprecated. However, irrespective of the final decision, it needs a strong warning of bias on all politically related, and non-Jewish religious issues. Andromedean (talk) 10:22, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3 for 2020 onwards (dating to the change of ownership). Bias and IPSO complaints from earlier are recoverable issues. Mystery owners are not. The chain of accountability is important. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 10:43, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1. Bias isn't unreliability. A single scandal, with the freelancers dealt with, isn't an indictment of the whole publication. Andre🚐 19:30, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  Andre, this isn't a single scandal, but multiple breaches of the IPSO code, libel cases, opaque ownership and funding, we are drowning in problems. By all means explain why these aren't relevant but please base your view around the evidence presented in the discussion. It's as if you haven't read anything or decided to insert a straw man fallacy! Andromedean (talk) 19:58, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  Libel cases do not impact the publication's reliability unless they end in a judgment or verdict that is damning to the publication. There was an extensive discussion in the above thread about the IPSO and the ownership and my conclusion is that there's a bit of smoke but no fire (since the fire was extinguished by cutting ties and retracting the problematic material) as far as liability for the publication for the recent scandal, but the IPSO is a red herring since The Times also had a similar number of breaches, and I don't think it matters that it publishes more text, because that's not a metric defined anywhere. The relevant metric is a reputation for upholding accuracy and fact-checking. So long as Al Jazeera, a state-run propaganda outlet owned and operated by Qatar, is generally reliable, I'm not convinced that the ownership standard is one we care about. WP:NEWSORG nor WP:RS define this. The concern is whether the org stands by their fact-checking and corrects errors. Andre🚐 20:12, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  No. Policy on this is at WP:SOURCE. The publisher matters. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:55, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  As it says there, "published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." It does not mention having to know who owns the publication. Andre🚐 21:01, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  No. WP:SOURCE says the publisher affects reliability and it even identifies a specific reliable publisher. Also, here we have other sources saying that its unknown publisher is a real problem for the source. Three of its columnists quit because it does not have a reputation for reliability. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:17, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  That is a misread of the policy. Jewish Chronicle is the publisher, the question at hand here is whether they are reputable. It doesn't at all mention individuals or groups funding the ownership, that is irrelevant and a reach. The columnists quit due to the recent scandal. The publication has been around for many years, so its reputation is something at hand here for editors to weigh in on. Andre🚐 21:20, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  No. You misread policy. Jewish Chronicle is the source under discussion. Your contention that it is self-published only makes it unreliable. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:27, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  It is not self-published, it is a publisher. It is owned by a consortium[2] led by Robbie Gibb. Andre🚐 21:30, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  You just said again it is a self-publisher. Jewish Chronicle is the publication. If as you claim, Jewish Chronicle is also the publisher, then Jewish Chronicle is self publishing. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:41, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  Your argument makes no sense. Jewish Chronicle is both the publisher and the publication, just like most newspapers. Or technically the publisher is the consortium that owns it, but is also known as Jewish Chronicle. The New York Times is the publication published by The New York Times Co., also a privately owned and operated organization. Self-published is when an individual publishes their own book or article. Jewish Chronicle is the outlet. Andre🚐 21:44, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  We have mainstream sources across the board, from The Guardian to The Telegraph to The Jerusalem Post to Haaretz, telling us that the identity of the actual owner is unknown. You can't just sweep this concern under the carpet: it is being voiced by media professionals, including former contributors to the Jewish Chronicle, not Wikipedians. Andreas JN466 21:45, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  Please show me where in the policy the identity of the owner is mentioned as anything pertaining to its reliability. Andre🚐 21:48, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  You just admitted that with the Jewish Chronicle, the publication and the publisher here are two different things, although you then pass it off as a 'technicality.' You go on to describe the publisher as the owner. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:53, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, it's no different than The Nation, published by its namesake owner, The Nation Company, L.P., the Jewish Chronicle is both the publication and an eponymous group that publishes it. Andre🚐 21:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  So, the owner is the publisher. Publisher matters under SOURCE. And the publisher, here has been put in doubt. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:01, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  Continued below. Andreas JN466 22:10, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  Rather than clutter the survey, kindly take this to the discussion section. Selfstudier (talk) 21:44, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I would just answer this point simply by reiterating the quote by subject matter expert Brian Cathcart: the publication of falsehoods has been a characteristic of the paper’s journalism for years. The problem is not bias, though the source is biased like every newspaper, it is consistent and sustained inaccuracy used to support its biases.--Boynamedsue (talk) 06:12, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 with the additional considerations of: generally reliable or at least not noticeably objectionable pre-2009, and "use with caution" from 2009 onwards (Pollard era), most notably with respect to BLPs and politics (the source of almost all the libel cases and other complaints), given its significantly worse track record of inaccuracy and sensationalism in this area, and then option 3 for content related to ARBPIA and related politics (including the intersection of race, religion, etc.) from 2020 onwards (the period of uncertain ownership and further step up in the editorial murkiness/malpractice and political beholdenness). Iskandar323 (talk) 19:51, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1 for now. I'm open to changing my !vote if other evidence emerges, but so far I'm only seeing a single story with serious accuracy concerns, which doesn't say much about the broader reliability of the 183 year old newspaper. The other evidence that has been provided against JC's reliability is IPSO complaints. Anyone can file an IPSO complaint, so only the ones IPSO (partially) upheld seem potentially meaningful. As TFD mentioned, there were four of those in the past two years, so I read through those. They all have some kind of merit, but seem fairly minor. One was about the text the Islamic Republic has repeatedly vowed to wipe Israel and Jews off the face of the Earth. Definitely imprecise, but we regularly see worse hyperbole from other biased-but-reliable sources. Another complaint took issue with the text Labour banned him from its list of potential council candidates, saying the candidate was rejected but not (permanently) banned. Also imprecise, but we see far worse errors from WP:GREL sources regularly. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 17:08, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think anyone knows how many complaints the IPSO receives, only changes after a complaint was made. For all publications over the five years 2018 to 2022, IPSO investigated only 3.82% and upheld 0.56% of the remaining complaints. 1.41% were resolved directly by the complainant with the publisher during the process and 0.43% were resolved by IPSO mediation. For examples of complaints about the JC which the IPSO rejected see Thomas Suarez's Youtube video here Andromedean (talk) 17:44, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1 pre-2015, option 2 post-2015 - just gonna second pretty much everything that Bob said. Somewhat lean option 3 for ARBPIA post-2020 but not strongly so, and complete deprecation, especially pre-2015, would be a mistake. The Kip ^(contribs) 18:42, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1 per u:Andrevan. The newspaper handled the latest scandal involving Elon Perry properly by severing the ties with him and removing his articles. Other media outlets have also had similar issues [3]. The IPSO rulings are a nothingburger, other sources like The Times have had multiple IPSO rulings against them as well and others like The Guardian simply choose not to be regulated by IPSO. It would definitely by good to know who owns the newspaper but I'm not sure how it would be relevant. Alaexis_¿question? 20:38, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1 per the arguments above. I previously had a somewhat lower opinion based on this scandal, but having read into it, it seems to me that the reliability issue has been sufficiently addressed. The political shift to the right is concerning on a personal level, and so is the departure of experienced and skilled journalists, but neither of those impacts the reliability for facts. The IPSO complaints are mostly the process working as intended, and the offending articles for this current scandal seem to have been removed (and are obviously, as any other thing written by such an author, unusable). The JC still has a reputation for fact-checking and reliability, and until that changes, it would not be reasonable to consider them unreliable, including in the I/P area. In addition, it has an important role of representing British (and other diaspora) Jews, and we should be highly cautious not to run out of centrist/right-leaning diaspora sources, including in the I/P area. I also find the argument about ownership entirely unconvincing: I don’t find it likely that there is any plausible ownership even close to comparably problematic to Al Jazeera, with the state in effect (though at least officially indirectly) both aiding Hamas and funding (with to be fair, no beyond-a-reasonable-doubt evidence of editorial control) a source we currently consider reliable for I/P. FortunateSons (talk) 11:37, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

  Whoa ... this calls for a bit of context:

  • Qatar sent millions to Gaza for years – with Israel’s backing. Here’s what we know about the controversial deal, CNN, 12 December 2023
  • ‘Buying Quiet’: Inside the Israeli Plan That Propped Up Hamas, New York Times, 10 December 2023
    • Just weeks before Hamas launched the deadly Oct. 7 attacks on Israel, the head of Mossad arrived in Doha, Qatar, for a meeting with Qatari officials. For years, the Qatari government had been sending millions of dollars a month into the Gaza Strip — money that helped prop up the Hamas government there. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel not only tolerated those payments, he had encouraged them. During his meetings in September with the Qatari officials, according to several people familiar with the secret discussions, the Mossad chief, David Barnea, was asked a question that had not been on the agenda: Did Israel want the payments to continue? Mr. Netanyahu’s government had recently decided to continue the policy, so Mr. Barnea said yes. The Israeli government still welcomed the money from Doha.
  • What Is the Hamas Chief Doing in Qatar?, Der Spiegel, 2 November 2023
    • Qatar is one of NATO's closest allies in the Gulf and has even been designated as a "Major Non-NATO Ally." In 2011, then United States President Barack Obama personally requested that the Emir of Qatar take the leadership of Hamas into his country. At the time, Washington was seeking to establish a communications channel to the Iranian-backed terrorist group. The Americans believed that a Hamas office in Doha would be easier to access than a Hamas bureau in Tehran.
  • Qatar ranks about twenty places above Israel in the Press Freedom Index.

  Andreas JN466 12:02, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

  All we need to do here is look at the editors who !voted anything other than 1 in the snow closed AJ RFCs. Selfstudier (talk) 12:25, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

  Selfstudier can you explain this comment about our need to look at editors? BobFromBrockley (talk) 05:21, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

  I think its pretty clear, don't you? If some editors want to go on about AJ in this RFC then pointing to their comments at the AJ RFC makes sense, no? Selfstudier (talk) 08:13, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

  Israel's low press freedom rating probably has to do with its regular involvement in military conflicts, but in any case, why is it relevant here? No Israeli sources are being discussed. Qatar's rating of 58.48 isn't great, and that reflects a mix of state-owned (e.g. Al Jazeera) and independently-owned (e.g. Doha News) news orgs.

  Returning to the topic of JC, it seems very speculative to say that there might be donors or lenders we don't know about, who might attempt to exert influence, which might impact reliability. With Al Jazeera, it's hard to prove anything but there are many signs of Qatari influence, such as leaked cables where US diplomats discussed the use of Al Jazeera in diplomatic negotiations. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 17:00, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

  I agree it would be speculative for us to say that "there might be donors or lenders we don't know about, who might attempt to exert influence, which might impact reliability". But we have a wide spectrum of mainstream sources saying it, from The Telegraph to The Guardian to Haaretz to The Jerusalem Post. We have insiders like Lee Harpin, senior reporter at the JC till 2021, who left after the takeover and now

  • says the new owners wanted more views "well to the right of the Tory party",
  • that "The current predicament of the @JewishChron does not come as a surprise. Leadership chosen on ideological grounds by those who gained control of the publication. Communal orgs should have been raising concerns months and months ago",
  • and that "The rot is deeper and for regular observers and readers of the paper, its direction over the last few years has been tragic to witness".

  You'd have to bring counterarguments published by people with similar standing in equivalent venues, rather than arguing with the people here. Andreas JN466 18:33, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

  Fair point, there is an accusation of owner influence rather than mere speculation. That said, every news org has criticism from disgruntled employees, especially in the past ~20 years when many news orgs had to undergo major changes. Harpin's criticism actually seems much less concerning than, for example, Peter Oborne's criticism of The Daily Telegraph, which includes accusations of owner and advertiser influence as well as (frankly more relevant) a focus on clicks over reliability. One can find comparable accusations from disgruntled employees of most major news outlets. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 20:26, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

  Well, at least you know who the owner of The Telegraph is. ;) I take your point about disgruntled employees, but the JC does seem to have had rather a lot of them since the takeover, and the concerns have been echoed very, very widely, both in Israel and the UK, by outside observers. Lionel Barber weighed in today: [4] Regards, Andreas JN466 21:37, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

  @Andreas I'm confused why you would say that Qatar ranks about twenty places above Israel.

  The comparison you're discussing is Qatari state-owned media with a privately held British newspaper. Samuelshraga (talk) 10:41, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1. Option 3ers believe this isn't about a single event, yet can't point to evidence of unreliability beyond that event. Meanwhile, substantiated IPSO complaints are at the level of other major newspapers like The Times showing there isn't a pattern of disinformation like the Daily Mail. Al Jazeera is relevant because I'm sure we can all agree holding Jewish publications to a different standard than Muslim ones is wrong and will increase bias on wiki. It's bizarre that this standard is applied here to say that Qatari ownership of Al Jazeera can't impact its reliability but ownership of the JC does.

RSN and RSP are a good way to skew article bias by designating sources supporting certain viewpoints as unreliable so as to remove them from articles in contentious areas. Judging publications individually is naïve in such an environment because editors will unconsciously create different standards for their favoured sources. We need to consciously ensure we're holding all sources in the Israel-Palestine conflict area to the same standard. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 21:14, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

@Chess:The times has 12 IPSO rulings against it and 5 for its website, which is shared with the Sunday Times, since 2018, publishing 312 editions a year. The JC has 6 for the jc.com, which have not been counted up to now, and 12 for its paper edition. This is over just 52 yearly editions.

To suggest these numbers are similar is a clear misrepresentation of the facts, given the probability of a the JC publishing an actionable falsehood in a given edition is AT LEAST 6 times higher (we do not know how many of the website stories originated in the Sunday Times). This disparity is further compounded by the fact that the JC is around a third of the length of the times, and so produces many fewer articles. A generous calculation would be that a JC story is ten times more likely to be punished by IPSO than the Times.

It is also clear from the rulings that the Times' corrections are spread over a range of topics, whereas all of the JC's false stories relate to the British left, Muslims and Palestine. This is more a campaign of disinformation by the JC rather than good faith errors. Boynamedsue (talk) 07:54, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

For reference, evidence of unreliability comprises points like the following:

• Publishing a string of sensational stories described as "wild fabrications" or "wild inventions" in Israeli and British papers
• Failure to vet (or knowing publication of) the falsified résumé of the freelancer writing these stories, who was instantly rumbled by Israeli journalists
• Failure to conduct a proper investigation after the fabrication scandal
• Failure to publish a transparent report on what happened (see e.g. [5] for comment)
• Your claim that upheld IPSO complaints are running at the same level as for The Times is false.
  • For material published since 2020 The Jewish Chronicle has 5 listed under "v thejc.com", 7 listed under "v The Jewish Chronicle".
  • Equivalent numbers for The Times: 5 listed under "v thetimes.co.uk", 8 listed under "v The Times"
  • Equivalent numbers for The Daily Mail (deprecated): 6 listed under "v Daily Mail" (incl. "v Scottish Daily Mail, excl. "v Hull Daily Mail"), 11 listed under "v Mail Online"
  • The Times and The Daily Mail are daily papers, The Jewish Chronicle is a weekly, with far fewer articles per issue. Its collection of upheld IPSO rulings per article is an order of magnitude greater than for The Times and The Daily Mail.
• Number of lost libel cases seems large relative to the size of the publication. We are writing an encyclopedia, not a gossip rag.
• The owner of Al Jazeera is known. The owner of The Jewish Chronicle is not. This is a unique situation, and the paper has taken a turn to the far right under the new, anonymous ownership. There are multiple mainstream media reports saying this lowers confidence in the paper's reliability.
• Multiple mainstream media reports (some listed in the Background section below) have deplored the loss of journalistic standards at the publication. Half a dozen of the paper's top columnists have left in despair.

Andreas JN466 09:23, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

If we're deprecating publications for a single freelancer fabricating stories let's get rid of the New York Times because of Jayson Blair and Judith Miller. Additionally, the New York Times also has anonymous owners as it's publicly traded. We only ban reliable sources based on their ownership if the ownership is negatively influencing the publication. Please point me to the cases where a source was banned because its owner was unknown, because asserting this is a unique situation because the paper has taken a turn to the far right means this is because of the views of the Jewish Chronicle.

This is a very high standard for the Jewish Chronicle that we do not hold other reliable sources to. The New York Times has had journalists fabricate content. The result of their investigation was to fire the journalist. This is the same thing the Jewish Chronicle did,[6] so explain why you're not holding the Jewish Chronicle to a different standard when you say they failed to conduct a proper investigation after the fabrication scandal. Or say that the New York Times is unreliable as well.

IPSO complaints are not a way to quantify unreliability. Complaints would only quantify reliability if they all represented the same flaw and were comparable across an entire industry, but IPSO complaints can be made for a variety of reasons and WP:GREL publications like The Guardian opt out of them. Your math shows that the Jewish Chronicle is an order of magnitude worse than the Daily Mail and that The Times is (5+8)/(6+11)=76% as unreliable as the Daily Mail. If you believed the Jewish Chronicle was 10x worse than the Daily Mail you wouldn't have !voted for "Option 2 in general". If the number of IPSO complaints had any statistical validity The Times would be at WP:MREL or below.

RSP is very quickly devolving into a method to enforce groupthink, because declaring a source as unreliable or just WP:MREL means one can effectively prevent its viewpoints from being presented on Wikipedia. Additionally, because the standard for reliable sources is de facto "does it agree with other reliable sources?", we end up with a ratchet effect that makes it harder to prove a source is reliable as the number of reliable sources that source agrees with goes down. This eventually leads to a corpus of sources that uniformly agree on what the truth is.

The only way to prevent selective exclusion of sources is to consciously question whether our standards are objective. You can't handwave this burden away when it's been brought up repeatedly by other editors. The reason why I !voted Option 1 isn't because I am disputing most of your claims, it's because you cannot show why similar evidence would prove unreliability for other publications. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 15:39, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Completely agree. Andre🚐 15:50, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

a) Most people are not suggesting deprecation and b) It's not just about rogue freelancers so lose the strawmen. Selfstudier (talk) 16:09, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

!voters aren't suggesting deprecation because the Jewish Chronicle is obviously more reliable than the Daily Mail. But the IPSO argument implies that the JC is 10x worse than the Daily Mail. Both cannot be true at once. I'm refuting the IPSO complaint counters with a reduction to absurdity that demonstrates why the number of IPSO complaints isn't a meaningful metric to evaluate sources on.

Rejecting IPSO means the rogue freelancer story is the only evidence of false information being published by the source. You have provided no other specific cases.

Columnists resigning due to changes in ownership/political slant can only prove bias on the part of the JC. As the editnotice you're supposed to see when editing this page says, bias is not a reason in itself for a source to be unreliable, but may require in-text attribution.

The objective standard we should be following is whether a source can be used for citing false information on Wikipedia. We rank and categorize sources to prevent false information from entering the encyclopedia. You can write as much as you want, but if you can't give specific examples of false information, then you haven't shown the source is unreliable. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 19:40, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

All of the upheld IPSO cases found problems with accuracy – typically incendiary, false claims ascribing words to people they had not actually written or said. This sort of thing is apt to cause BLP problems here. I don't understand why you think such inaccuracies are irrelevant for our purposes, or do not qualify as "false information" (and please go a bit more lightly on the bold). Andreas JN466 20:28, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Reliable sources also have substantiated IPSO complaints. Our dispute is over whether counting the number is acceptable, because you haven't bothered analyzing their specifics. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 17:25, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

These IPSO rulings seem quite similar to me in nature (in one case, practically identical).

You are proposing that the number of upheld IPSO rulings against a publication (proven inaccuracies, misrepresentations or libels) should be irrelevant to us. That is hardly sensible.

Your previous post was a textbook example of circular reasoning – you said, "the Jewish Chronicle is obviously more reliable than the Daily Mail. But the IPSO argument implies that the JC is 10x worse than the Daily Mail. Both cannot be true at once. You start with the assumption that the JC is better than the Daily Mail, so if it collects ten times more adverse IPSO rulings per article than the Daily Mail, then that proves IPSO rulings don't matter. Absurd indeed – but not in the way you mean.

The fact that these IPSO rulings generally occurred in a single topic area makes it all the more important to take note of the risk we would take by hosting the JC's truth claims unvetted and unfiltered by other, more reliable publications, here in our BLPs and other articles in that topic area. If the claim is important, another more reliable publication will pick it up, and we can cite that. That is responsible sourcing for an encyclopedia, given the substantial concerns about the JC voiced in the press. Andreas JN466 19:35, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

You start with the assumption that the JC is better than the Daily Mail, so if it collects ten times more adverse IPSO rulings per article than the Daily Mail, then that proves IPSO rulings don't matter. Absurd indeed – but not in the way you mean.

I'm pointing out your absurd double standard where you argue that the Jewish Chronicle is statistically worse than the Daily Mail, but then only !vote for Option 2. It makes it obvious that your !vote doesn't follow from your stated reasoning. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 02:14, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

The IPSO and fabrication problems are limited to a specific topic area. The "special consideration" in my Option 2 vote is that Option 3/4 should be applied to that topic area where there is strong evidence of poor reliability. I would be happy to cite the JC on lots of other topics – music, the arts, film and theatre reviews, biographies of Jewish scientists, etc. Andreas JN466 08:40, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

@Chess Well, have a look what the NYT did when it discovered one of their reporters was guilty of fabrications:

• 7,350-word front page story, with transparent and exhaustive reporting of what had happened.

What we got from the JC is this nothingburger:

• 106 words of generalities.

To claim that this is in any way equivalent to what happened at the NYT is risible. You don't have to take my word for it, because we have journalists pointing this shortfall out in the mainstream press.

• "Thinnest form of contrition" (Times of Israel)
• "Though Wallis Simons apologised to readers, he offered no explanation for how the deception occurred. Just an assurance that standards will be tightened. This will not do." (Prospect Magazine).

The concerns about ownership etc. are voiced in the British and Israeli mainstream press, across the political spectrum.

Using the Jewish Chronicle for WP:A/I/PIA coverage after this episode is not my idea of due diligence. "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me." If they sort their operation out, we can always revisit. Regards, Andreas JN466 16:17, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

What would writing a longer statement with a more detailed apology do? Elon Perry lied about his identity and his sources. He was caught within two months. The "transparent and exhaustive reporting" of the New York Times is full of florid prose about Blair's travel habits, counselling, and personal problems as he was a full-time employee of the New York Times.

I don't think the Jewish Chronicle would have any of that information for a freelancer, so most of that article couldn't be written even if the JC wanted to. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 02:27, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

He was caught instantly by Israeli journalists when he made claims that Netanyahu's family then tried to give extra visibility to. (A similar PR effort was simultaneously underway in Germany, with the Bild Zeitung tabloid publishing a related fake news story: [7][8])

Perry was caught by the simple expedient of Israeli journalists asking the IDF whether it really had the materials Perry claimed they had (they replied it was a "wild invention"), and then checking whether Perry really was a professor at Tel Aviv University (he was not). If the JC is unable to perform such simple tasks then it lacks basic qualifications for reliable reporting on such matters.

The editor should have explained to readers how contact with Perry was established, why they did not fact-check his résumé given that he made some tall and easily disproved claims about himself, why they did not try to contact the IDF to corroborate Perry's stories (standard practice in reliable publications is to require two independent sources for news stories), etc. This is all basic bread and butter for mainstream outlets, and the JC is simply and evidently out of its league here if they can't or won't apply such basic due diligence. Andreas JN466 09:01, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 in General. Option 3 for issues relating to Palestine and the war in Gaza Its bias is very clear and overt. But as other editors have pointed out, this does not necessarily mean it deserves depreciation. However, depreciation and considering a source unreliable on a single topic are two very different things. For the same reason why editors are rightfully sceptical of Pro-Russian sources reporting on the war in Ukraine, it is best to be consistent and also treat with some scepticism the reliability of the Jewish Chronicle when dealing with Gaza and issues related to Palestine. Genabab (talk) 15:10, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
• Option 4 since 2024, Option 3 2015-2024— the problems with editorial standards at the newspaper have been ongoing for years and are only getting worse. (t · c) buidhe 23:08, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

  The idea that JC covers antisemitism in the UK is not a good reason to keep the paper when it has lost any reputation for reliability in that area. We should be looking for scholarly sources to cover these controversies anyway. (t · c) buidhe 23:12, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

  It's not possible on a technical level to deprecate a source for a period of time. It has to be all or nothing because the deprecation edit filter can't determine when an article was published. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 02:29, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

  WP:DEPREC assessments are independent of the presence and feasibility of an edit filter. Andreas JN466 09:14, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

  In every prior subject-area or time-limited deprecation discussion, the technical issues relating to the edit filter has come up. So yes, the feasibility of a subject-area deprecation needs to be addressed if we're going to adopt it. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 23:37, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

  There are deprecated sources that are not subject to an edit filter (the National Enquirer is an example) – you can have one without the other. But consensus seems to lean towards "generally unreliable" anyway, rather than deprecation. Andreas JN466 06:48, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I think Buidhe makes a very pertinent point. If the JC is frequently libelling people and making false claims around antisemitism, the fact it is the only source reporting on some cases of alleged antisemitism means these claims should generally not be included in our pages. Especially in cases of BLP.Boynamedsue (talk) 17:56, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3 for WP:A/I/PIA (including antisemitism) and Muslims, option 2 for other issues, per comments above and below (including mine).VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 23:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

  While it is a legitimate !vote that it be deemed unreliable on antisemitism (I have above argued that this would be a mistake, while Buidhe and Boynamedsue have made the argument for such a ruling), I just want to additionally argue that antisemitism in general should not be covered by AIPIA, only antisemitism directly related to Israel/Palestine, which I believe was the case in all of the relevant IPSO breaches. Personally, I think it is dangerous to not be able to cite the UK's only Jewish newspaper on the topic of antisemitism in the UK, without any evidence that it is unreliable on this topic in general (as opposed to antisemitism directly related to Israel/Palestine). At any rate, I think you'd need to present an evidence/policy-based argument rather than use ARBPIA. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:22, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

  I'm confused. Don't any of the other 4+ Jewish newspapers in the UK cover antisemitism? What's this "only XYZ" business about? And if the others don't cover the same incidents as the JC, perhaps that's indicative of the types of incident that have gotten it into libel and defamation territory. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:37, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

  Jewish News was basically a local paper until ~2020, at which point it became a better source than JC. Hamodia, Jewish Telegraph and Jewish Tribune are all impossible to use for Wikipedia as not web accessible, as well as very parochial. For 2015-20, JC is only source that fully covered antisemitism in the UK. BobFromBrockley (talk) 19:41, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

  I only had to look as far back as this year to find an IPSO breach without a mention of Israel or Palestine which could be inadvertently interpreted as antisemitism.

  Lunn v The Jewish Chronicle. Just from memory I recall they changed what was said about Marc Wadsworth only after mediation

  I also know that the JC has made similar mistakes as other publications over the IHRA definition, that doesn't excuse the JC Andromedean (talk) 12:37, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

  Well if it is indeed a pattern of unreliability in relation to non-Israel/Palestine-related antisemitism, then this needs to be a separate topic area to the Israel/Palestine topic area, and consensus would need to be established for this.

  The Media Reform Centre report (a terrible piece of research imho) doesn't say anything indicating that JC is unreliable; its only mention is that it reported on Corbyn's Facebook posts long before other media outlets did. If we designate the media outlets that the MRC report indicts unreliable, we'd need to stop using BBC, ITN, Sky, Guardian, Telegraph and Independent, which personally I'd oppose. BobFromBrockley (talk) 19:56, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1 pre-2015, Option 2 in general afterwards, Option 3 for WP:A/I/PIA area since 2020 per ActivelyDisinterested. As usual in UK media, Private Eye seems to be one of the few places taking any notice of this issue. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:41, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3 for topics related to Israel, Palestine, Muslims, British left, accusations of antisemitism and BLP claims irrespective of timeframe, option 4 in general since at least 2020. As for its reliability concerning other subjects in earlier periods, I don't know the publication well enough to make a clear vote. I think the publication's unreliability during the last few years has been established pretty well by other editors, so I see no reason to elaborate on that. However, I would consider it generally unreliable on these issues irrespective of timeframe; besides the fact that the JC has been openly Zionist since the early 20th century (hence qualifying as a biased source although not necessarily unreliable), the article about it mentions a lot of instances of the JC accusing people with views critical of Israel of antisemitism at least 56 years back, when they were sued for accusing an MP of antisemitic views with no evidence and had to issue an apology, and it also mentions numerous occassions - some of which predate the 2015 threshold - where the JC has posted serious false accusations against people and institutions with an opposing view to the JC's. Among other things, in 2009 the JC falsely accused a peace activist of harbouring suicide bombers, and in 2014 it falsely claimed that the Royal Institute of British Architects had voted for a "ban on Jews" from the International Union of Architects, while what in fact was voted on was a suspension on an Israeli architect association involved in the building of illegal Israeli settlements. Posting such false allegations against people and institutions with opposing views clearly cross the line between biased reporting and pure misinformation/fabrication, and as the above examples show, the paper has engaged in this behaviour long prior to 2015. I find it obvious that a publication engaging in deliberately posting misinformation to promote its views and smear opponents should be labeled as generally unreliable, and as the paper has engaged in this behaviour prior to the 2015/2020 threshold, I don't think it is appropriate to limit this judgement to this limited timeframe. As for other topics, I don't think I have enough background information of its reporting throughout its history to make a statement about its reliability on other topics in earlier years, but I do think that its opaque ownership, along with its history of posting fabricated stories and misinformation, raises serious questions about its reliability on other issues as well. --Te og kaker (talk) 17:47, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

  There was a case 56 years back, when JC published an opinion piece by one Labour MP calling another antisemitic; this is not disinformation, but opinion. Then there was a 41 year gap and they published a letter in which what the Guardian called a "peace activist" (and the Press Gazette specificies was an International Solidarity Movement activist) was falsely accused of harbouring two British men who he had simply met, who then carried out a suicide bomb in Israel, in a case that doesn't mention antisemitism. That's not a pattern. There's an plausible argument that the 2015+ pattern starts earlier, with the 2009 case (although this case doesn't relate to antisemitism), but considering how much coverage of antisemitism there was in these decades it would be perverse to stop using it on that topic because of the 1968 opinion piece. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:59, 3 October 2024 (UTC) (A reminder that neither an opinion piece nor a letter to the editor would be considered usable as a source for facts, especially biographical facts, anyway, so these two examples are really irrelevant. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:02, 3 October 2024 (UTC))

  However, the MP Christopher Mayhew sued the JC and received a public apology in the High Court. His argument was that, whilst his comments were anti-Zionist, they were not antisemitic. Andromedean (talk) 08:28, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

  OK, but the 41 year gap between that and the next instance doesn't suggest a pattern does it? And would the article by Edelman ever be used on WP as a source for anything apart from this controversy itself? BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:04, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

  Similarly the 2014 RIBA case is not a case of inaccuracy; it's a case of articulating a strong opinion. Once again, bias =/= unreliability, and we would not use an editorial as a source for facts anyway. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:45, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the architect story is clearly comment, but it is a leader, the official view of the paper, and the nature and way this opinion is presented is pretty indicative of the way the JC's very extreme positions work. The article doesn't mention the fact that the ban was motivated by the participation of members of the Israeli architects' association in the construction of illegal settlements in occupied territory, a warcrime according to the Geneva convention. It also conflates Jews and Israelis, which according to most definitions of antisemitism... is antisemitism. This lack of context and misleading framing is also typical of its news coverage.--Boynamedsue (talk) 09:25, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree an egregiously biased leader reflects more badly on a source than an egregiously biased op ed, and this is indeed evidence of a drift towards hard right positions under Pollard. But these opinions about what constitutes antisemitism are common opinions that we'd see in plenty of reliable sources (e.g. the Wall Street Journal or Telegraph) and not evidence of unreliability. Also important to note that the leader was one para in an edition that included other articles on the topic, a topic it had extensively covered, including the illegal settlement issue that provoked the boycott. E.g:[9] I'd argue that we'd never use this leader as a source for facts, but it'd be fine to use a news article on this issue (like this one) as a source for facts in a WP article, while of course better to use alongside other sources. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:41, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

That particular article is much better than some it's published, and could have appeared in any reliable source. The problem is the sheer quantity of unreliable content it has put out means we have a hard job to separate the decent articles (which I assume that one was, doesn't seem to have any obvious howlers) and the dodgy ones.--Boynamedsue (talk) 21:48, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

If we look at its extensive coverage of this RIBA boycott (more extensive than any other source) I think we can clearly see that all the news articles are very solid, while the editorials and op eds are extreme. The editorials might become due when other, secondary sources (in this case architecture media) refer to them, but otherwise we’d ignore them and stick with the news articles. This is a good illustration of why designating its news articles unreliable because its editorials are extreme would be a bad idea. BobFromBrockley (talk) 07:55, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2, on I/P since 2019/2020, with protest of 2015 date -- please pay attention to sources! The only RS that have been posted for JC's change in reliability have been in the 2019--2021 area (for the IPSO case alerts and owner change) and 2024 reporting scandal. This has been discussed extensively in the thread immediately preceding the RfC. The first !voter here posted a 2015 date but offered no reasoning, and everyone to follow seems to have parroted that date. As I detailed below, giving opportunity to comment for weeks: the 2015 date, when it was brought up exactly once prior, is an artifact of the fact that IPSO started reporting in 2015 (it was founded 2014/11); the only other controversy that year was an editorial about Jeremy Corbyn. I am pleading that the closer reads this and gives the cutoff date consideration, and includes the previous thread. SamuelRiv (talk) 23:29, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

If you are going by IPSO rulings and the comments of the RS Cathcart, we should date back to 2018 not 2019. The best cut off is 2008, the editorship of Pollard, who was forced out after bankrupting the paper with libel settlements. But he was already committing libel in 2012, falsely accusing an Islamic charity of involvement in terrorism. They accused an entirely innocent man of being involved in a terrorist bombing in 2008 (just two months after Pollard took over) again paying damages. It is worth noting that corrections were only published here as part of legal settlements for damages, the JC resisted correcting their lies to the very last. The lower quantity evidence of unreliability prior to 2015 is precisely for the reason you state, IPSO, toothless and incompetent as it is, didn't yet exist to document the JC's abuse and provide recourse to its victims.Boynamedsue (talk) 08:30, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Why 2018? What specifically happened in 2018?

I can tell you specifically what (many) IPSO violations and internal communications regarding JC happened in 2019 and 2020, and further events in 2021.

(Not to get into the, but "being involved in a terrorist bombing" is a complete misreading of the very short article you link. Also just a reminder to everyone that importantly the UK has looser standards of libel than the US.) SamuelRiv (talk) 04:07, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, if a paper stares someone has "harboured" or "sheltered" terrorist bombers, I consider that to be an accusation of involvement. It is certainly libellous and false, as shown by the fact the JC were forced to pay 30k for damage to reputation.

I choose 2018 because that is the date that Professor Brian Cathcart refers to as the beginning of their insane run of IPSO judgments. 2018 was when they falsely reported comments by Mike Sivier implying he had denied the holocaust, and falsely claimed that Mark Wadsworth had "abused" Ruth Smeeth (you can find the video online, there is no way to characterise it as abuse).

And as for libel law, yes the UK's libel law is tougher than almost any country, but it meshes very well with our BLP policy. If you can't prove it and it damages reputation, don't publish it.Boynamedsue (talk) 06:51, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

The Sivier case is a really week case for establishing unreliability. The single inaccuracy IPSO found in that case was as follows. Sivier had said “I’m not going to comment on ‘thousands’ instead of ‘millions’ because I don’t know, but the Nazi holocaust involved many other groups as well as Jews, and it seems likely that the SWP was simply being ‘politically correct’ [in not mentioning Jewish victims]”. JC summarised this as: “remarks he made about Jews and Zionism, including a claim that he could not comment on whether thousands or millions of Jews died in the Holocaust he said ‘I don’t know’”. After he contacted them saying he didn’t deny the Holocaust, they amended the article to include his response. This is not grounds for a designation of unreliability. BobFromBrockley (talk) 08:11, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

The IPSO findings on that case say: The article gave the impression that the complainant had said something which he had not, on a subject liable to cause widespread offence; a clarification was required to avoid a breach of Clause 1(ii). The publication had offered to issue a clarification stating the complainant’s position that he had been referring to why the leaflet made this claim when he said “I don’t know”, and stating his position on the number of Jewish victims of the Holocaust. This clarification made the complainant’s position clear, and was sufficient to meet the terms of Clause 1(ii).

The way you've summarised it is apt to leave the same false impression as the JC did, and was slammed for. Press Gazette summary. Andreas JN466 08:56, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

The former IPSO case was a breach, the latter was not (it was resolved in mediation). Note that JC had one breach in 2017 and one in 2018; in looking up again the 2019 memo, I did find a reference on investigation starting as early as 2018 (citation to letter by Lord Faulks, Twitter post, 3rd image. As I've said previously I was fine with saying anything in the 2019--2021 area as an approximate cut-off year guidance (precision on that is deceptive), so given this 2018--2021 is appropriate too. All I care about is that these dates remain justifiable to sources, and that when people !vote they know what they are voting on. SamuelRiv (talk) 16:17, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

To be fair, the 2017 breach is not particularly concerning. It is outside the topic area where the JC's run of bad stories occurs. Distressing and unfair as it was to the individual concerned, it seems to be a kind of "cost of doing business" error that all papers, even the most reliable, suffer from.--Boynamedsue (talk) 20:08, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1 pre-2015, Option 2 in general afterwards, Option 3 for WP:A/I/PIA area since 2020 A newspapers that refuses to even disclose who owns it (and hence can exert control over coverage) must be treated with caution, and probably not used for sensitive areas. The same applies to media funded by dictatorial regimes, for example Al Jazeera. Jeppiz (talk) 09:43, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3 for WP:A/I/PIA area since 2020 (or 2019 as mentioned by SamuelRiv), Option 2 in general for the same time period - given the pattern of IPSO rulings, reliable secondary source coverage of its problems, and evidence of unreliability given by Andreas JN466 (Jayen466). starship.paint (RUN) 15:15, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3 It is quite difficult to get IPSO to rule against a newspaper. Breaking the IPSO code IPSO's code 41 times between 2018 and 2023 must mean that this is an unreliable source Isoceles-sai (talk) 18:40, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1 I will go with no change to the ratings, as the attached notes seem enough. Although I’d tend to evaluate any cite depending on what the edit is, per WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, and think no evaluation without context can be really valid. I do feel that with this small a pub, I'm dubious this even needs a rating unless sources of greater WEIGHT simply do not exist, but would include handling this source as the existing rating of "option 1" as RS per WP:BIASED as mentioned on the WP:A/I/PIA aream seems enough. The 2023-24 change in business are noted so may be a consideration in a specific cite, but this highlights again that CONTEXTMATTERS -- it depends on specifics of what the cite being used is dated and what the intended edit is. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 23:08, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option 4 for WP:A/I/PIA, Option 3 in general The IPSO ruling is damning, and as I said in my comment just now too: the JC has proven itself to be unreliable, and should be deprecated as a source. This true historically, and the latest scandal and the lack of a proper response (merely getting rid of the writer and pretending it was just a minor slip up and moving on) definitively confirms its lack of editorial standards, and that this is systemic with the publication, and not incidental. This marks a qualitative difference between the JC and another outlet like the NYT or Guardian publishing a plagiarist or fantasist: They don't have a long record of this, and when this does happen, it is never because they wrote things that were sought out and published for being in accordance with the editorial political positions of said outlets. Both are the case with the JC, so I support deprecating it as a source. Raskolnikov.Rev (talk) 12:05, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

User:Raskolnikov.Rev I’m sorry, but you are simply incorrect in saying Guardian and NYT do not have known incidents of plagiarism, biased reporting, etcetera bad enough to have reporters quitting and/or purged over such and that there is a long history of incidents. If your !vote is premised a mistaken belief that others exist without intentional flaws, you may wish to google history to get some of the examples where these or Globe and Mail or some others did sins egregious enough to get coverage, or where London Times and such publicly announce an editorial political POV. No source is perfect, none is free from its limited POV or inherent biases, none is free from human fallibility of an occasional corrupt act by reporter or editor. RS would include considering editorial policy and retractions on such inevitable items as a sign of quality because they just do happen everywhere, and I think should similarly give credit for open announcement of a POV such as pro-Jewish as just being honest. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 18:40, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

If the Guardian or NYT had a proven track record of publishing many false stories on a single topic, I would argue we shouldn't use them on that topic. But they don't. The JC does, however. The JC doesn't have a pro-Jewish POV, btw. It has a pro-Israel POV. It's really quite anti-Jewish when the Jewish people concerned don't like Israel.--Boynamedsue (talk) 20:57, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3 in general, option 4 for topics related to Israel/Palestine. The opaque ownership structure and IPSO issues rule out that TJC is a reliable source. at this point. Cortador (talk) 08:24, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 in general, Option 3/4 for WP:A/I/PIA area - per Jayen466 who has a seemingly infinite amount of patience and AGF in the face of repeated false claims despite having debunked them each time. When other reliable sources are saying that this source was used as part of a disinformation campaign, when they discuss its fake news crisis, it beggars belief that anybody can claim that the source is "generally reliable". I sympathize with Bobfrombrockley's concern about deprecating a hundred plus year old newspaper, but in general we shouldn't be using news articles for things that are not news anyway, at that point we should be looking at books and journals and so on. But fair enough, for material prior to when this source had become "fake news" and participating in a "disinformation campaign" that was based on "wild fabrications" (and those quotes are all from reliable sources), use it to your hearts content. But for material after that point? Tony Montana said it best, you kidding me or what? nableezy - 05:36, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3 in general, option 4 for topics related to Israel/Palestine/Islam/West Asia/UK politics. Not sure what else to add that hasn't already been mentioned by others. No one knows who owns the outlet. The outlet has been criticized for being a disseminator of disinformation. The outlet echoes (and sometimes starts) far right rhetoric and is known for spreading Islamophobia. The circulation is around 16,000 per month only half of which are paid which is an even more damning indictment of how the current owners are completely ok with alienating not just their staff (who have quit) but also their readers. My heart goes out to Bobfrombrockley when they feel emotional about deprecating a 100+ year old publication. Our decision needs to be grounded in being neutral and not clouded by sentimentality. Wikipedia is not beholden to the Jewish Chronicle or any other outlet. When media watchdogs and reputable journalists speak, it's our job to listen and act. CoolAndUniqueUsername (talk) 15:52, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

  It's not sentimentality. It's about the simple fact that bad editorial decisions in 2023 don't give us a reason to deem unreliable (let alone deprecate) material published in 2003 or 1973. I find it bizarre that editors are providing arguments for unreliability based on recent missteps but somehow backdating the unreliability to before the current editor was born, which is going to make a difficult job even harder for the closer. Further, given for many of the years in that period, the JC was the only real Jewish newspaper in this country, we'd be wiping out a lot of encyclopedic coverage of the UK Jewish community for very recentist reasons. BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:35, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

  This note is used beside the depreciated Daily Mail: 'Some editors regard the Daily Mail as reliable historically, so old articles may be used in a historical context. So a similar note could be attached to the JC to allow restricted use. Andromedean (talk) 19:43, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

  Something like that may work if some version of option 3/4 is adopted without a specific start point.

  Of course, the Mail's offences stretch back a lot further than the JC's: I would argue for more than "historical" reliability but that most post-digital output is usable with increasing caution from the 2010s on select topics. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:09, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

  That's a valid point and Andromedean's suggestion seems like a great way to ensure we are mindful of that. Do you agree with option 4 for Palestine/Islam/West Asia/UK politics then, perhaps starting 2010, given those topics are not directly relevant to the UK Jewish community? CoolAndUniqueUsername (talk) 04:21, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

  Not sure if that's directed at me but if so then: not really.

  • I'd oppose deprecation for Palestine and "West Asia" (the latter something nobody else has argued for so far) because that would lose for example analysis by Colin Schindler and Anshell Pfeiffer who recently resigned; I think option 2 and a bit more than the care that ought to routinely be put into ARBPIA topics is enough there (except possibly in the very recent period, relating to the Elon Perry case).
  • I'm not bothered by deprecation for Islam under current and last editors, who are arguably Islamophobic in their editorial positions, although I don't see an evidence/policy-based reason to go past option 2 for on this topic (it was relevant in just a couple of IPSO breaches, a tiny fraction of their coverage related to Islam).
  • Nobody has made an argument for "UK politics" up to now; the UK left is a better frame for extra considerations in the 2015-20 period from the evidence presented so far in this discussion. (Again, I think option 2 could cover that.)

  BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:29, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 in general, Option 4 for WP:A/I/PIA area - per Jayen466, Huldra (talk) 20:46, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3 or 4 since 2008. Option 1 before 2008. The decline in quality and in accurate and complete reporting of the facts has been a long and slow one. It probably cannot get much lower. Cambial — foliar❧ 16:23, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Background (Jewish Chronicle)

• Mainstream media reports:
  • Alan Rusbridger: Who really funds the Jewish Chronicle? Why it's troubling that we don’t know…, Prospect Magazine, 26 April 2024
  • 'Great disgrace': High-profile British-Jewish journalists resign JC over scandal, The Jerusalem Post, 16 September 2024
  • The ‘fabrications’ and resignations that plunged The Jewish Chronicle into crisis, The Telegraph, 16 September 2024
  • Opinion | Jewish Chronicle Scandal: When 'pro-Israel' Means Becoming a Megaphone for the Netanyahu Government, Haaretz, 18 September 2024
  • How the Elon Perry fabrication scandal shook the Jewish Chronicle, The Guardian, 20 September 2024
• History of IPSO rulings against The Jewish Chronicle:
  • The Jewish Chronicle
  • thejc.com --Andreas JN466 11:00, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Discussion (Jewish Chronicle)

• This articlel, from The Guardian, should be relevant. At lot of it seems to be from Elon Perry, whose articles they've recently retracted en masse. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 11:02, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
• Comment I am concerned with, as are several of the reports on this, about their vague, inadequate response. The statement they made is more like a cover-up: 'we won't tell you the details, we've 'memory holed' this so it will go away, just trust us.' As I suggested in the prior discussion, we should expect when something like this happens that the outlet 'reports the hell out of it'. We should know from them who and why touched off the investigation, who was involved, what was false, what can't be confirmed, where it leads, what charges that preceded the investigation and arose during it could be validated, denied, or for which there is no evidence, what was their investigation, what didn't they investigate, why, what processes went wrong in their organization, what the fixes are, etc. etc. etc. We should also expect disciplining of the editors involved. - Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:06, 22 September 2024

  For reference, this was the statement summarising the investigation, published one day after the announcement that an investigation was underway. --Andreas JN466 11:25, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I should have linked those in my comment for others' sake. That's what my comment refers to as inadequate, to say the least. Instead, they are 'sitting on the story', not reporting perhaps among the most important news, in the outlet's history. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:39, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

• Comment These additional qualfications add nothing, since they already apply to every other news publication.

For all green-lighted news media, they are considered generally reliable for news and additional considerations apply for all other information they publish. See News organizations: "News reporting from well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact (though even the most reputable reporting sometimes contains errors). [However] [e]ditorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (invited op-eds and letters to the editor from notable figures) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact."

Also, per Exceptional claims require exceptional sourcing, "Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources."

No one has pointed out how this source has caused damage or even that there has been any discussion in articles about specific claims linked to it.

TFD (talk) 18:52, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

I have no doubt we should do a better job of making the policies cabining news clear everywhere (including on the perennial sources page) -- indeed, one of the reasons I think that page may be unclear (despite the extensive introductory hand-wringing), is it likely suggests in its format, news and other types of sources are the same (we should probably breakout news outlets from others, although I don't want us to then suggest all other sources are the same--perhaps sectioning would be better). But "editing notes" is what we should collectively give, and it only makes sense on Wikipedia that there would be collective editing notes, especially concerning its most plainly used but also difficult to use source, news. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:03, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

• Objection: There is no cutoff year offered in the RfC, despite many or most in the prior discussion saying that there was a distinct and recent change in JC's reliability, with several sourced dates offered. So voters have added cutoff dates themselves -- but where on earth did the 2015 cutoff year come from? It's not been mentioned at all in the previous thread in the context of when problematic behavior actually occurred. All I could find is User:Bobfrombrockley's 17 Sept comment comparing the total number of complaints since 2015 for the JC and The Times. They do not say why 2015 is the cutoff -- presumably it is because IPSO began in September 2014, so that's the first year of their reporting. That is not the first year in which problematic behavior was reported by the JC -- as far as I can tell the first year in which secondary sources report problematic behavior, or report that JC internally was concerned about such behavior, was 2019. This is not the same as picking a year arbitrarily and counting the IPSO violations thenceforth -- we are taking a RS article that cites either internal communications about violations, or a particular violation as a bellweather event, for their own judgement that JC has dropped standards after that particular point. No such source has said 2015. SamuelRiv (talk) 00:47, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  I think Option 2 is supposed to cover it case by case after 2015 onwards, especially for non I/P stuff, and Option 3 for PIA after 2020 should be a clear enough point where facts from TJC should not be sourced for I/P issues. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 01:17, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  As per the discussion above, the 2015 date stems from a time where TJC started to receive a number of IPSO complaints. We are not writing an article here; RS are not specifically needed to make an argument that a source is unreliable for one reason or another. Cortador (talk) 08:13, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  Please see my direct response to your !vote above (but reply here): what is your source -- because it was never said in this thread -- that there were "a number of IPSO complaints" in 2015? What is your source that the number of IPSO complaints in 2015 was significant compared to others? (Compare to the years we have sources for that IPSO complaints were significant, the years that alerts internal and external were raised.) SamuelRiv (talk) 12:32, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

  I have not voted in this poll yet. Cortador (talk) 10:35, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

  I think 2015 makes sense as a transition from green to yellow status as this is when the run of IPSO complaints began which all relate to the controversy over Antisemitism in the British Labour Party which began that year. This is when Brian Cathcart seems to start with his denunciation (although his main target is IPSO), so if you see the IPSO complaints alone as grounds for option 3 then it makes sense to start then. But there's also a strong case that 2015-20 was marked, not marked by general unreliability, but issues that call for additional considerations, e.g. extreme caution on the topics of the British left and Muslims or perhaps Israel/Palestine (although nobody has really given an argument for that specifically). Apart from Cathcart, all other RSs take 2020/2021 as a starting point: the mystery owners, compounded by the appointment of an amateur and highly ideological editor a year later. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:40, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  As far as I can tell the only direct relationship JC bears to the antisemitism controversy is their front page editorial against Corbyn. While that's significant, it's an editorial. Does that speak to reliability, in 2015? (Much less unreliability in news coverage of the left, Muslims, or I/P in 2015, the year of the editorial?) SamuelRiv (talk) 12:36, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

• Comment I think we have a problem here already, because people who are !voting option 2 are often not saying what they mean by it. I would invite them to clarify, or we are giving the closer a bit of a hospital pass. Option 2 covers a lot of ground, my own !vote is effectively option 2 prior to 2020, but the important part is exactly what considerations users think should apply.Boynamedsue (talk) 06:24, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  This is a very good point. Quite a few editors have !voted for option 2 for the whole period from 1841 to 2015 without indicating what extra considerations should apply, which isn't a usable conclusion. (For me, the additional considerations that should apply after 2015 is attribution and caution on the British left and Muslims, especially for BLP stuff.) BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:43, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  The previous RFC close mentioned pre 2010 and I chose not to date my comments on the grounds that stuff that old can in all likelihood be sourced better elsewhere and if not, one would have to ask why not. Selfstudier (talk) 17:30, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

• Comment It concerns me deeply that despite the mountain of evidence against the Jewish Chronicle (JC) editors are still attempting to find periods and categories it might be considered reliable so as to grant exemptions. This privilege wasn't granted to the deprecated Daily Mail which has a long history and covers a wider subject range. If exemptions are granted, we need to ensure exclusion of a broader range such as politics and all other religions, not just Israel, Muslims and Labour. With regard to timing the JCs more extreme lurch to the right can probably traced to Stephen Pollard. Only two years before being appointed editor in 2008, he used far-right rhetoric like “preserve Western civilisation” from the threat of “Islamists.” and “the Left, in any recognisable form, is now the enemy” in his blog. Fast forward to today and the JC are promoting Donald Trump. This is an endemic problem not a temporary one. Andromedean (talk) 09:58, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  Surely the issues with Pollard relate to bias not unreliability? We consider the Telegraph or Wall Street Journal reliable sources, despite plenty of that rhetoric. And despite what he wrote in his blog in 2006, he still published lots of left-wing opinion in the JC. More importantly, it's not a "privilege" if a long-running newspaper that has not been accused of serious improprieties in its close to two centuries is assumed to be generally reliable; it's our default for all legacy media (e.g. regional print newspapers)unless evidence is brought against it. With the Daily Mail, the downgrading decision was based on a massive body of evidence of uncorrected fabrication and plagiarism that went back a long time. It's not comparable. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:59, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, but I notice that on the Reliable sources/Perennial sources noticeboard a comment is often made regarding bias, notability, sensationalism, propaganda as well as reliability. Isn't this the area to discuss this? Andromedean (talk) 15:45, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  I would say no. Pollard heralded in the period of reduced reliability and presided over the initial accumulation of IPSO complaints. It is obviously harder to tell how the publication performed prior to this (the 2014 formation of IPSO), but there is no particular reason to consider that it was likely any better. The paper was first successfully sued for damages under Pollard in 2010,[10] and Pollard is synonymous with other woes for the paper. Everything from 2009 onwards deserves a sharper lense. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:58, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  Your citation for "The paper was first successfully sued for damages under Pollard in 2010" actually refers to a blogpost he wrote for a different publication, The Spectator, in 2008, prior to his arrival at JC. I guess the point might still stand that this reflects poorly on him as a choice of editor (The Spectator is yellow on RSP) but not in the way being sued for damages would be. BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:11, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

  Part of that is news especially, "old news", is assumed to have ever-limited shelf life for much of what Wikipedia does and wants to do. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:08, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  The first draft of history, as they say. The problem is that for many Wikipedia topics that is all there ever is; and even for topics that scholars subsequently do write about, the scholarly sources often don't make it into Wikipedia as the article is full already. Andreas JN466 14:00, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  The theory is that merging or updating or replacement should occur to render the long view (not sticking to a first draft). So that, the 'British left in the 1980s' is essentially a differently useful topic than the 'British left today'. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:12, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  User:Bobfrombrockley Well the looking at periods may reflect that clearly RSP evaluated it as “option1” initially in 2021 and apparently re-confirmed that in 4 other questions of 2024 that just add cautions of a topic, so the question seems has it gone worse and if so then when. Personally, I could see the ownership change of 2023-2024 as an objective point where one might think that it’s basically a new paper, but the general thread seems re 2015 and if RSP has been wrong for 5 years+. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 19:00, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: Whilst I take on the earlier advice that this RfC isn't a simple vote count, it would be highly challenging to assess it fairly due to the multitude of categories editors have inserted. To carry out the analysis fairly and avoid double or partial counting would require a model and qualification in set analysis! Do we need technical or independent assistance or agree to stick with simpler categories? Other RfCs must go through the same difficulties. My view is that there's no need for dates, although I could be convinced to give it a pass prior to Pollard, if only for my sanity!Andromedean (talk) 18:25, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  Well, the closer generally looks to see if there is a rough consensus among the vagaries of participants differing expressions of thought, not any mathematical certainty. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:38, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

• I've placed notifications at the Journalism[11], Newspapers[12], Politics of the United Kingdom[13], and Israel Palestine Collaboration[14] projects to seek further input. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:28, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  I'll notify the WikiProject Judaism and Jewish history as well. Andre🚐 19:31, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  No objection to additional notifications, the four I chose seemed to be the most generic matches to the issues involved. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:36, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  I'll notify the WikiProject Arab world and Islam as well. CoolAndUniqueUsername (talk) 04:10, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Continuing the discussion with User:Andrevan from above: As User:Alanscottwalker already mentioned to you, WP:SOURCE explicitly points out that one of the four aspects of a source that can affect reliability is the publisher and its reputation. An anonymous owner creates the impression of having something to hide. This has impacted the reputation of the Jewish Chronicle, as evidenced by the media reports linked above. --Andreas JN466 22:08, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Anonymous can have no reputation. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:15, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

If such standard were applied to all sources, we'd have to mark as unreliable any source for whom we don't know all the board members. The sources you provided do list a number of people. A silent partner in any venture is not unusual or a sign of unreliability. The Companies House listing for Jewish Chronicle Media Ltd also suggests no change in its status from a private limited company. Instead, the only change that appeared to have been made was to remove Gibb as a person with significant control, replaced by Jonathan Kandel, a former tax lawyer whose LinkedIn page says he now works as a senior consultant for the Starwood Capital Group, an international private investment firm.....The Jewish Chronicle’s ownership structure, in which several key figures remain anonymous.... Since 2020, the only shareholder and director was Robbie Gibb, a former Downing Street comms director. But he was not bankrolling the loss-making paper, which according to its latest accounts required a loan of £3.5 million. In March, the paper announced it would be becoming a charitable trust. Gibb recently resigned as director, replaced by the Labour peer Lord Austin, Jonathan Kandel, a prominent lawyer, and Joseph Dweck, a senior rabbi. The shareholding was split up, too. But the people ultimately responsible for The JC’s debts remain unknown. Andre🚐 22:20, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

We should be concerned when sources say it is a concern. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:35, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

This is, again, a misread of what it means by "publisher," it means the outlet, not the ownership of the outlet; ownership isn't mentioned. If you find an article that was published in the Jewish Chronicle, that was published by the Jewish Chronicle, and it will be reputable or not based on what we decide here, but nowhere is that extended to mean the reliability of the shareholders of the company. Andre🚐 22:15, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

No you don't understand publisher. The publication is the Jewish Chronicle, either it has a separate publisher or it does not. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:21, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

As I just said, it is called "Jewish Chronicle Media Ltd." The fact that we don't know all the shareholders is not relevant. I think we're going around in circles so let's agree to disagree. Andre🚐 22:23, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

The ownership does matter. It has to matter to the publisher. But more specifically, it matters to the sources that have taken issue with it. As Jayen already pointed out, this problem was not identified by Wikipedians, it was identified by sources. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:29, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

The sources also say, Not all of the contributors have resigned. “For me, this incident is not reason enough to give up on a paper that’s been a powerful and essential voice for our Jewish community for 180 years,” says Naomi Greenaway, deputy editor of the Telegraph Magazine and Jewish Chronicle columnist. “But I have a lot of respect for the journalists who have resigned, and I’m glad it’s triggered The Jewish Chronicle to interrogate their editing processes. The shame is that for a paper that does give a platform to those on all sides of the political spectrum, these resignations will ironically mean it loses that balance on the Left. “From my experience, they are a tiny team, juggling a huge amount on a shoestring budget and generally the calibre of content punches way above what would be expected from their resources. But they’ve dropped the ball and they know they have massive lessons to learn from it.”....“The @JewishChron has cut all ties with the freelancer in question and his work has now been removed from our website. Readers can be assured that stronger internal procedures are being implemented. Andre🚐 22:33, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't know what you are responding to. That does not address publisher. It also continues a vagueness, apparently she, an editor, has no idea what went on and what the fixes are or what lessons are learned. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:41, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

The question at hand is whether the publisher, Jewish Chronicle Media Ltd, and its associated publication, have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. That quote substantiates that in fact, its reputation may still be intact, though that is for editors here to determine. As to whether the company contains, among the named individuals, some anonymous individuals AFAIK is not something discussed anywhere in wiki-policy. Andre🚐 22:43, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

No. It does not. She is not a reliable source for her own employer in such a matter. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:47, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

It had a reputation for fact-checking, up until circa 2009, when Pollard took over, it was bankrupted by libel cases, and then taken over. The JC of today is no longer the JC of yester-century, but the shell of a long-cherished brand, and the point of this RFC is to make that very distinction in terms of source quality. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:02, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Has any RS reported it was bankrupted by its four libel cases or was this speculation? Lot of newspapers suffered financially in the same period, as lots of the RS commentary on this case notes. BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:20, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

An interesting quote from John Ware, part of the consortium that acquired The Jewish Chronicle in 2020, appeared this weekend in The Times. Ware told The Times:

• "I, and some others, repeatedly asked to be told who the new funders were. We were told that wouldn’t be possible. I was assured that they were politically mainstream and I trusted those assurances because I trusted who gave them. I didn’t want the paper to fold so I allowed my name to be used, having been told it would help. I had zero managerial, financial or editorial influence, control or input, nor ever have had. It was just a name."

Ware stopped writing for The Jewish Chronicle in February 2024, due to concerns over the publication's new editorial line under Wallis Simons, and defected to the Jewish News. --Andreas JN466 13:10, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

That's indeed a damning quote, but note his resignation is not due to reliability issues just editorial political position: “To be frank, I became unhappy with the JC’s political drift. Whilst it was doing new and important stuff on extremism, I felt too often it glossed over the fragmentation of Israeli society, which is accelerating and which really matters to the Jewish community here and should matter everywhere. It’s a very big and developing story.” BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:26, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

The anonymous consortium member quoted here a few months ago – who said some remarkably similar things to what Ware has now been saying on the record to The Times – also declared the JC's editor was "behaving like a political activist, not a journalist", especially in social media, and that coverage of Israel had become a case of "my country, right or wrong".

This may or may not have been a different member of the consortium – after all, the sources are saying several of its members eventually became uneasy about their involvement – but it is clear that even within the consortium that was ostensibly owning and running the JC, concerns arose whether the JC was about propaganda or journalism.

John Woodcock, Baron Walney, another consortium member, also confirmed to The Times that he has had no involvement whatsoever in any oversight structures for the JC. Andreas JN466 16:37, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Lee Harpin, a former senior reporter at the JC, left the paper in 2021 and a few days ago published a scathing piece about "Leaving the Jewish Chronicle" on his Substack. Alan Rusbridger quotes Harpin as saying that after the new owners took over, he was told they wanted more views "well to the right of the Tory party". --Andreas JN466 10:13, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

• Comment:A few days ago we seemed to be converging on a general consensus (unreliable on certain subjects after a certain date). However, since then the following editors User:xDanielx, User:The Kip, User:Alaexis, User:Fortunatesons have given the JC a clean bill of health. Their arguments are based on one or more of the following opinions: the JC has a long standing service to a minority (what possible relevance is that to post 2010/15 reliability?), unknown ownership and funding isn't as bad as state funding (yet like the BBC, Al-Jazeera claims to be independent and is only partially funded by it's government), the IPSO rulings don't look that bad did you read the bizarre examples of failed ones? , by focussing on the latest scandal, and ignoring the following lawsuits and rulings.
• falsely accusing a peace activist for harbouring suicide bombers
• disclosing details a family members without good reason
• reporting false links to terrorist activity
• making untrue allegations about their own regulator, the IPSO. Note in another case the IPSO considered the JCs conduct during their investigation “unacceptable”.
• falsely accusing a councillor of a) antisemitic comments, b) launching a vicious protest & c) interfering with a vote
• falsely accusing someone of a conspiracy to intimidate, threaten or harass Jewish activists in a meeting, when he wasn't even present.
• falsely accusing a country of repeatedly vowing to wipe Jews off the face of the earth
• falsely accusing a Rabbi of holocaust denial when they clearly knew in advance this wasn't true.

I would be interested to hear a response, particularly if they think these legal cases aren't that bad? Andromedean (talk) 11:47, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

I haven't looked into all of these claims, some seem like fair concerns, but a few points -

• Some it just seems like matters of opinion, like Suarez who takes issue with being called a "Israel hate author" (other sources have made similar claims), or claims about antisemitic comments. At best they show JC is WP:BIASED.
• Publishing info about family members doesn't relate to reliability.
• reporting false links to terrorist activity doesn't seem accurate, they stated that Interpal was listed by the US as a Specially Designated Global Terrorist, which is factually accurate (albeit unbalanced without mentioning Interpal's denial).

We have to keep in mind that JC voluntarily submits to IPSO regulation, which provides a highly accessible venue for complaints, giving them leverage to extract apologies or small payouts. Other outlets like The Guardian opt out of IPSO regulation, so claims about libel have to go to real court, which is much less accessible and which involves a much stricter legal standard of libel.

JC also receives more scrutiny than most sources due to its controversial positions. If AP or Reuters made a mistake like writing banned rather than rejected, in an otherwise uncontroversial report, we'd never hear about it because noone would care. I'm not convinced that JC makes more factual errors than most news outlets. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 17:16, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

However, since then the following editors...The Kip...have given the JC a clean bill of health.

I voted virtually the exact same way as ActivelyDisinterested, Bobfrombrockley, Bluethricecreamman, LokiTheLiar, and Springee (and not far off from Selfstudier and Jayen466), which was that it was reliable up to a certain point (hence why full-scale deprecation would be a problem) and not so reliable afterwards, especially for ARBPIA. That is very clearly not option 1 akin to the others listed. What in the world do you mean by I've "given it a clean bill of health??" The Kip ^(contribs) 03:39, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

@Andromedean, forgot to ping in initial response. The Kip ^(contribs) 03:40, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough, not option 1 across the board for you, but that brings me back to how difficult it will be for an assessor to make a judgement with all the exceptions to this and that. I also believe that Option 2 could be used with almost any publication on non-political issues. However, it's mainly geopolitics and national politics which dominates references to the JC, and is the motivation behind many of the other controversies. Typically editors are advised to find other sources where they exist in such cases. Andromedean (talk) 08:20, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

@Andromedean, I primarily responded to the latest Eylon Perry debacle and the IPSO rulings since these were the main arguments in the Background section. I'll review the links you've shared and respond here (and possibly amend my !vote). Alaexis_¿question? 07:27, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

@Andromedean, I've looked at the lawsuits and rulings section of the wikipedia article. First of all, as you probably know England has rather peculiar laws on defamation which put the burden of proof on the defendant and (imho) have been abused by a lot of unsavoury characters. Whatever you think about the merits of this law, this means that the same article would not necessarily be considered libelous if it were published elsewhere where the burden of proof is on the plaintiff.

Second, most of the section and most of your examples have to do with IPSO rulings which is again, the system working as it should resulting in the newspaper removing content (amongst other remedies). I agree that they published a number of articles that turned out to be incorrect but since they took appropriate measures following the decision of the regulator, I don't think we need to downgrade them. This definitely confirms their bias, but that's hardly news for anyone here.

Regarding some of the specific examples you've mentioned.

• Publishing details of the family members of the defendant without valid justification has no bearing on the reliability.
• falsely accusing a country of repeatedly vowing to wipe Jews off the face of the earth - it was in an opinion column which we would not use for statements of fact per WP:RSEDITORIAL
• reporting false links to terrorist activity - if you're referring to Interpal then it's not obviously false. In spite of the court ruling in the UK this organisation seems to be still designated as a terrorist organisation by the US, Australia and Canada.

Alaexis_¿question? 09:47, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

• This finding by Independent Press Standards Organisation is concerning: "Therefore, at the time of publication, the allegations against the complainant remained unproven. By reporting these allegations as fact, rather than identifying them as unproven claims made by multiple sources, the [Jewish Chronicle] articles failed to distinguish between comment, conjecture, and fact". There are about 12 other complaints of inaccuracy in which IPSO ruled against JC.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 23:24, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Fabrications and Resignations: A Crisis at Britain’s Jewish Chronicle The NYT has joined in the reporting round. Selfstudier (talk) 08:34, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. From the NYT article: "To Israeli national security journalists, the reports bore the hallmarks of a disinformation campaign by sources in the Israeli government. Such stories, one said, are often placed in friendly publications outside Israel because their reporters and editors are less likely to subject them to intense vetting." (My emphases.)

The NYT report also mentions that the fabrications stayed up even after the Israeli Defense Forces had debunked them. They were only retracted after columnists quit. Andreas JN466 09:04, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

• If we're going to keep pigeonholing publications into a single category, then I think we need to make space for "Biased but doesn't have a history of making things up, so still reliable within the limits of WP:RSBIASED" and possibly "Unfortunate incident". For example, Jayson Blair fabricated a lot of articles at The New York Times, and yet it's still RSP "green". One might wonder why a mass retraction at a general-audience newspaper resulted in no change, but a seemingly similar mass retraction at a Jewish newspaper is treated differently. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:46, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

  Seconded Andre🚐 22:48, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

  The difference lies in the sensational nature of the fabrications and their political context, the fact that a very obviously doctored résumé was accepted, the paper's opaque ownership, the wholly inadequate, non-transparent response of the editor to the affair, the walkouts of major, longstanding contributors, and the unanimous verdict of the mainstream press that journalistic standards at the Jewish Chronicle have severely declined. Andreas JN466 23:35, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

  I would say that all sources are biased, although some more intensely so. Israel/Palestine sources are particularly susceptible to bias, it seems, meaning there is really no perfect source on the conflict. There has been a problem with discussions on this noticeboard of editors !voting for unreliability for sources perceived as pro-Israel (Jerusalem Post, JC) and as anti-Israel (al-Jazeera) simply because of bias ("they're Zionists" or "they're pro-Hamas"). We really need to keep bias out of the conversation. (The best sources might be those perceived as biased against them by both sides...) BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:32, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

  It is your claim that appears false. They are not the same. (Nor does it make sense to believe each reputation of each publication would be exactly the same, no matter what.) Here, the JC has seemingly failed in multiple ways, and it is both the scandal which brought some of it to light, and it is their failures and continuing failures in how they have handled it which makes them doubted across RS (see also, lie by omission). They have failed to even do the job of deeply reporting the matter, and not disciplining editors. For example, among other things this scandal has highlighted that the new post-almost-closure editor is a novelist (see generally, fiction), and it gets worse from there for the JC's seeming reputation. Also, can anyone even begin to draw a comparison, which does not even consider something like ability/resource to do a job.-- Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:38, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm unsure if this case has been mentioned. In 2014 the JC claimed that a PSC Director, had said that demonstrations against the Gaza conflict “had been used by people to ‘peddle hatred and intolerance’ towards Jews”. The Chronicle published the following correction: “Ms Colborne had not said that. In fact, what she had said was: “The Palestine Solidarity Campaign opposes all forms of racism, including anti-Semitism and Islamophobia, and racism directed against Palestinians whether living in the West Bank and Jerusalem, or as citizens of Israel.”” Therefore, there are five publicised pre-2015 cases against the JC, in 1968, 2009, 2012 and two in 2014. Andromedean (talk) 13:40, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Not the most reliable of opinion pieces, still tho "Does the Jewish Chronicle really matter, though? Nobody reads it anymore – it circulates just under 16,000 print copies, distributing around half of them for free – hence its near-death experience in 2020." Selfstudier (talk) 13:01, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Rivkah Brown is a commissioning editor and reporter for Novara Media, which for those familiar would indicate her levels of reliaiblity and bias. She gives Pollard period (2008+) for increasingly extreme bias ("fanatical cheerleader"), Wallis Simon period (2021+) for unreliability. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:20, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

In March 2022, Steven Barnett a Professor of communications at the University of Westminster and a member of the British Journalism Review editorial board, wrote scathingly about the quality of the JCs journalism and the inability or unwillingness of the IPSO to effectively regulate it. Andromedean (talk) 10:01, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Barnett would support 2018 as turning point. Beware though of JC as collateral damage in opinion pieces attacking IPSO, which is one of Barnett's main causes. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:15, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I can't find any explicit mention of him agreeing to 2018 as being a 'turning point'. However, he did say "Since 2018, it has been found by IPSO’s complaints committee – which is notoriously reluctant to find fault with member publications – to have breached the Editors’ Code 33 times. Even worse, over the same period it has admitted and paid damages for no fewer than four serious libels."

Andromedean (talk) 10:21, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

look at the context of that quote: “Over the last few years, for whatever reason, the JC appears to have suffered a catastrophic failure of journalistic standards which has short-changed its readers, damaged the victims of its serial inaccuracies, and left its reputation in tatters... The JC’s charge sheet is long and depressing. Since 2018, it has been found…” In other words: It HAD a good reputation; that reputation is in tatters after a series of failures over the last few years; the charge sheet starts in 2018. BobFromBrockley (talk) 20:58, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

• Comment. I am very sympathetic to a point by Unbandito made down the page, although I'm not sure it's been how this board has worked for some years: I believe these discussions are supposed to take place in the context of a content dispute, so can you provide an example of where Palestine Chronicle is used on Wikipedia in a way that is misleading or violates our core principles? In this discussion of the Jewish Chronicle, not one editor has mentioned an instance of JC being used on Wikipedia in a way that is misleading or violates our core principles (and in fact the evidence being pointed to by option 3 voters focuses on (a) the IPSO issues in a bunch of articles that have all been fully corrected, and (b) the Elon Perry pieces which have all been removed, so it would be pretty impossible for these to be used improperly on WP). BobFromBrockley (talk) 09:59, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

  There's no requirement for a RfC to come from a content dispute. Challenging the reliability of a source based on change of ownership, change of editorial policy (e.g. using AI, which some previously reliable sources have been doing) etc. is appropriate. Cortador (talk) 16:14, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

• Comment. I agree with Andromedean and others that the JC has proven itself to be unreliable, and should be deprecated as a source. This true historically, and the latest scandal and the lack of a proper response (merely getting rid of the writer and pretending it was just a minor slip up and moving on) definitively confirms its lack of editorial standards, and that this is systemic with the publication, and not incidental. This marks a qualitative difference between the JC and another outlet like the NYT or Guardian publishing a plagiarist or fantasist: They don't have a long record of this, and when this does happen, it is never because they wrote things that were sought out and published for being in accordance with the editorial political positions of said outlets. Both are the case with the JC, so I support deprecating it as a source. Raskolnikov.Rev (talk) 11:58, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

• Comment Are people truly arguing that RSP is consistently wrong? Clearly RSP rated JC as green or “option 1” in 2021, and in 4 prior discussions of 2024. The concern timing this year matches both a change in ownership 2023-2024, and *ahem* a hot war in Palestine which I have seen in WP edit-warring / POV pushing at other articles. So unless one argues that RSP failed all the prior times, I’m inclined to think JC (a) remains green since the specific concerns match the war topic that was already added is enough, or (b) the quality shift in 2024 is the concern and articles since 2023 get an added note to a still-green JC listing. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 19:21, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

  To be clear, in 2021, there was 'no consensus on whether The Jewish Chronicle is reliable for topics related to the British Left, Muslims, Islam, and Palestine/Palestinians.' Edit: Based on the links below, after eliminating sock puppets & those not eligible, those in favour of the JC being generally reliable became 11/23, against 11/23 saying it was generally unreliable or outright publishes false material and should never be used. However the way subject areas and timescales are divided up is complex, and the quality of arguments and evidence need to be weighted. It must be enormously difficult for an uninvolved assessor to evaluate RFCs. I note some news sources are given two independent ratings to simplify matters. Perhaps that's an option here? However, it's still worrying that a small paper with such a large catalogue of IPSO cases and legal disputes is given the benefit of the doubt in less controversial areas, or dates before regulation was tightened up (ever so slightly). Editors opinions change as regulators highlight issues which were previously unknown, and presumably Wikipedia changes as it attracts a more diverse international readership. Andromedean (talk) 10:42, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

  The 2021 RFC was disrupted by 6 socks and the close had to be rewritten. The fact there were so many other discussions only indicates a slow boil, with evidence mounting at each stage, arguably an RFC could have been run much earlier than this. Selfstudier (talk) 11:06, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

  • The IPSO apparently is not concerned, it seems the opinion that the complaints are a lot is just what is voiced by bylinetimes. I’m thinking likely some sensationalising there as natural and by the mention of islamophobia they may have their own bias, plus think that likely *any* paper covering either side can easily have dozens of complaints filed so I still think existing green with caution note about topic of palestinian war is appropriate and there has not been evidence of anything else needed. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 14:42, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

• If I am looking at the discussions correctly, the first two discussion predate RSP's creation in 2018, the third discussion was a review of an RfC which lead to most of the current text at WP:RSPS, and the fourth was initially a question about post-2022. --Super Goku V (talk) 11:17, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you for the link to the fourth discussion, May this year, which I had totally forgotten about and which rehearsed many of the issues we're discussing now. Some useful information there about the IPSO complaints, use by others, and other issues. (Although of course lots of irrelevance to wade through too.) BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:30, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Oneroof.co.nz

https://oneroof.co.nz is a website for promoting the real estate market in New Zealand. It has no WP:USEBYOTHERS and has no reputation for factual accuracy. I consider content from this source to be quite undue given the entire point of the site being to promote real-estate content, as stated in their FAQ: 'OneRoof enhances New Zealand’s latest real estate'.

The material this source is used for includes providing the home of a BLP: [15], promotional material on how money an apartment is making and that is for sale: [16], and how and how being in the right location can add to your property value: [17]

Overall I fail to see how this source is appropriate for an encyclopaedia, the site's purpose is to promote real estate and we shouldn't be helping it. Traumnovelle (talk) 03:57, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

It certainly looks a questionable source. I can't see how it passes WP:RS. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:02, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Much of the use of oneroof is to their suburb profile pages, which gives dates of construction of housing, e.g. East Tāmaki Heights, second paragraph. I fail to see that this is promoting real estate. I'm not sure why the sale of a house, which implicitly is no longer the residence of the seller, is a BLP violation. The "Grammar Zone" is a well-known phenomenon in Auckland, but I would be happy to see another source used for it.-Gadfium (talk) 04:29, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

It's owned by NZME so it's possibly reliable in the very limited circumstances in which it would be WP:DUE, e.g. bland factual information about suburbs. Daveosaurus (talk) 11:24, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I doubt it. Their suburb profiles contain patently false information: [18], well no that isn't true it dates back to 1860. Perhaps they just mean still extant housing? Well that isn't true Clark House exists. And they even wrote an article about it's real estate listing [19].

How about their article on the CBD? [20] 'the earliest residential housing recorded in the area constructed between 1800 - 1809'. That is 40 years before Auckland was founded and 40 years before William Brown (the first European to settle the area) came.

I could point out more obvious factual errors but I think it is pointless as I've clearly demonstrated the lack of any fact checking for this. Given the repetitive descriptions given it is likely this is automatically generated content created based on real estate data or something rather than any actual research carried out by a real person. Traumnovelle (talk) 21:04, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

K-Love

There's a disagreement at an AfD about the reliability of an article from the Christian radio network K-Love. (AfD, source) The individual K-Love article itself appears to be a highly promotional single-source interview and thus non-independent and unreliable, but I am curious for this board's view of K-Love as a source overall. I see no evidence that K-Love is operating as a real news organization per WP:NEWSORG. It has no editorial staff listing on its site, and it has no public editorial policy or statements about fact-checking or corrections. Its news feed (https://www.klove.com/news) is mostly reprints of wire stories mixed in with WP:USERGENERATED content. And its mission is explicitly about creating positive and inspiring content (see its "Positive People" feed), which means its content will always be editorially positive and thus introduces questions about independence and reliability. However, another editor in the discussion says "Klove is a national broadcasting network (operating over 400 stations) and should be a recognized secondary source." Dclemens1971 (talk) 05:26, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not seeing much WP:UBO or explicit commentary in other RS, but my impression is that if it has a reputation for anything at all, it would be one of being a cost-minimising radio equivalent of a content farm driving local stations out of business for their own purposes, rather than anything like fact checking or accuracy. Whether such an operation actually cares to pay for a meaningfully rigorous editorial process... well, I'd find it dubious, but what I think doesn't actually matter because it's up to the editors actually wanting to use it to put up an argument that can be plausibly linked to being RS which "it being pasted everywhere" isn't: Both AP and PR Newswire are (inter)nationally syndicated but one of them clearly has nothing to do with an RS. (It also doesn't matter because it doesn't seem to be used anywhere) Alpha3031 (t • c) 09:48, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Just a quick side note, interviews are always reliable for the words of the person being interviewed (see WP:ABOUTSELF). So the interview is reliable in that limited way, even if it isn't independent for notability purposes. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:58, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

That carries the assumption that interviews are always properly transcribed or not misleadingly edited. In a world where some media outlets have run "interviews" with people whom they have not actually had contact with, there is some level at which we have to be concerned about the outlet delivering the interview. (Note I am not saying that K-Love reaches this level of concern; I have no insight on or judgment of this particular source.) -- Nat Gertler (talk) 22:34, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Totally agree, I didn't mention it as its an extreme situation. Any outlet not faithfully publishing details it that way should be deprecated. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 00:49, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

The Joe Rogan Experience

Over at Graham Hancock, @Bill the Cat 7: has argued that an appearance by Hancock on The Joe Rogan Experience podcast is a reliable source [21] for the following statement Hancock has strongly rejected allegations that he is a racist, a white supremicist, as well as other defamatory accusations by the SAA Archaeological Record, saying he was "personally hurt badly...wounded badly". [22]. For context, the article already states Hancock has rejected allegations that he is racist cited to the New Republic (a reliable source). I think that while obviously statements on podcasts can be used for non-controversial non-self serving information per WP:BLPSPS, that the podcast is not usable to call the accusations by the SAA defamatory, which I also think is a WP:TONE issue. As far as I can tell, the SAA did not actually call him a racist or white supremacist (see the letter they sent [23]), and therefore the addition by Bill the Cat 7 misrepresents what the SAA actually said. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:18, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

It's such an obvious BLP violation that it's not worth spending more words and time. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:25, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I think the "BLP vio" framing is confusing, It makes it seem like the BLP vio is against Hancock when it is not. I definitely disagree with the addition and think it's essentially flat out wrong and effectively soapboxing, but calling the statement by the SAA, an organisation not a living person, "defamatory" is not necessarily an obvious BLP vio, though I understand how it could be reasonably understood as a BLP vio against Daniel H. Sandweiss, the president of the SAA who signed the letter. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:33, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I was confused, thinking Hancock was referring to some articles published in the SAA record, not the letter. I still think a wikivoice statement that claims made in the letter are defamatory would be a BLP violation. It's written as expressing the organization's concerns, but it's definitely Sandweiss's letter, starting with "I write this open letter ...". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:00, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

The SAA Archaeological Record did publish an issue responding to Graham Hancock's book America Before in 2019 [24] (it's even cited several times in his article), but as far as I can tell it does not call him a racist or a white supremacist and Hancock is most aggrieved by the 2022 SAA letter about Ancient Apocalypse rather than anything in the SAA Archaeological Record. Hemiauchenia (talk) 15:11, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

As a further addendum, I'm not sure if this is intentional on Bill the Cat 7's part, but the part of the video he linked was as far as I can tell about the alignment of the constellation of Orion with the Great Pyramids, and Graham Hancock's rejection of white supremacy/racism is not within several minutes either side of the timestamp. If you're going to cite a 4 hour+ podcast, you need to provide accurate timestamp, just as you'd provide a page number when citing a book. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:59, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Please link rv in question. While I think editors refer to WP:Mandy often inappropriately, this is a good example where it's unnecessary to say 'I'm not a racist', precisely because the very next sentence is the slightly-more-substantial statement, "expressed support for native rights". The former says nothing (and really often just makes the BLP subject sound ignorant and defensive), while the latter is at least somewhat informative and may get the reader to actually click the source if they have any interest. As you point out, this is not an RS issue. SamuelRiv (talk) 17:27, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

On SAA defamation, if the podcast doesn't firmly support it, that's a WP:Verifiability problem. (We don't have a V noticeboard, and we really need one.) Obviously you can't say something disputable or controversial that's not explicit in the source, before even considering RS. (I replied to the initial post too quickly.) SamuelRiv (talk) 18:59, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure verifiability would really need to be a different noticeboard. A statement is verifiable when it a) can be found in b) a reliable source. B would be in scope here, and A would be in scope on WP:ORN. Alpha3031 (t • c) 10:08, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

To clarify further, I've jumped ahead of myself: why is it WP:V? Because first you need to make "defamatory" a direct quote, not a wikivoice summary as it is now (you'll notice that in the diff it is not even an indirect quote) -- but that can only be done if Hancock literally says "defamatory" in the interview, and if he doesn't (which I don't suspect he does, but I'm not listening to any podcast without a timestamp), then it's a failed WP:Verification. [I take it on good faith that the editor's intention was some approximate quotation, rather than some kind of inference that might be interpreted as OR. Regardless, unless it was said explicitly, then for equally various reasons mentioned by everyone here it's incorrect.] SamuelRiv (talk) 20:17, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

This isn't the Joe Rogan Experience making statements about Hancock, this is Hancock making statements about themself in an interview. So this is less WP:SPS/WP:BLPSPS and more WP:ABOUTSELF/WP:BLPSELFPUB (the two are duplicates policy statements) as Hancock is talking about themself.
It's reliable for Hancock statements about Hancock. Editors on the talk page should decide if it's self-serving or due for inclusion per WP:MANDY, but that's NPOV not reliability. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:29, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it's entirely WP:ABOUTSELF – allegations that he is a racist, a white supremicist, as well as other defamatory accusations by the SAA Archaeological Record is a statement about something other than himself. jlwoodwa (talk) 23:52, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry you're correct, only this denial would be reliable not the details of what he was denying. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 09:51, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Should we not be asking is this podcast an RS in general, I would say not. Slatersteven (talk) 12:05, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Most podcasts are WP:NOTRS due to being SPS, there's no real reason to consider JRE an WP:EXPERTSPS so the only interesting (non-trivial) question is whether it might qualify for an exception, like ABOUTSELF. Alpha3031 (t • c) 12:16, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Well it can be seen as self-serving, so arguably no. Much better would be third-party coverage of any denial. Slatersteven (talk) 12:21, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

• At the very least, as written, by my reading, it is calling them defamatory accusations in the article voice, which is utterly inappropriate when using a primary WP:ABOUTSELF citation to his own words. But even if it were attributed I would avoid it. The balance between NPOV, RS, BLP, and DUE allows us to state the simple fact that he denied it (ie. in a completely neutral wording like X denied the accusations, saying nothing else), but sort of dry unexceptional statement of denial is the limit of what we can use WP:ABOUTSELF for; when it starts to get into characterizations and explanations and other detailed framings, that's unduly self-serving and requires a non-ABOUTSELF source. If we're going to imply that they called him a racist or a white supremacist, this absolutely requires an independent reliable source (ie. non-ABOUTSELF); it's not something that can be cited to a podcast. --Aquillion (talk) 18:06, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

A source that says X (e.g. Hancock saying he is not a racist) is always reliable enough to support the mere claim that that specific source says X. In fact, it is the most reliable possible source to support that particular claim. How could it ever not be?

Reliability of such a source only matters if you want to use it to support more than the bare fact of what the source says. An accused party's denial of an allegation is typically not going to be a reliable source to support claiming, in Wikipedia's own voice, that the allegation is false (even if that source is otherwise considered reliable). Nor is it going to be a reliable source to support a characterisation in Wikipedia's own voice of what the accusations are, since people or organisations who have been criticised often distort the nature of the criticism against them into a less reasonable, more easily rebuttable version when they publicly respond to it.

The text you say this citation was meant to support mixes a statement that Hancock denies the allegations against him with a statement (in Wikipedia's voice) of what those allegations were. It is reliable for the former purpose and not the latter one.

(The denial may not be significant enough to include regardless of the above, but that's a judgment call that isn't purely about source reliability - although whether reliable secondary sources have reported on the denial is at least relevant to it.) ExplodingCabbage (talk) 10:53, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Surely a podcast appearance, with audio and video of someone saying something, is a reliable source as to the statements made in said podcast appearance. This seems to be a dispute about the appropriateness of including the statement and how to frame it per Wikivoice, due weight, MANDY, and numerous other policies, guidelines, and norms, as well as the marginal value of this statement (and source) in the context of what is already presented in the article. Any determination about how to resolve this particular content dispute should not rely on the general reliability of The Joe Rogan Experience. In the event that a statement, especially a direct quote, warrants inclusion it seems absurd to rule against citing the actual source. Time stamps should be provided and possibly links to multiple sources of the audio or video and transcripts. -- MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫— talk 21:22, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I've been very busy lately (I just saw this). Please give me 72 hours and I will respond formally. Thank you. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 13:22, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Formal reply follows. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 15:40, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

FORMAL RESPONSE - (GH = Graham Hancock, FD = Flint Dibble, SAA = Society for American Archaeology)

1. GH was indirectly, but clearly, accused of various serious things.

a. https://www.theguardian.com/science/2022/nov/27/atlantis-lost-civilisation-fake-news-netflix-ancient-apocalypse

b. https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2022/nov/23/ancient-apocalypse-is-the-most-dangerous-show-on-netflix

c. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/jul/01/netflix-ancient-apocalypse-canceled

d. https://newrepublic.com/article/169282/right-wing-graham-hancock-netflix-atlantis

e. https://hyperallergic.com/791381/why-archaeologists-are-fuming-over-netflixs-ancient-apocalypse-series/

f. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-07/experts-say-ancient-apocalypse-netflix-series-is-racist-untrue/101728298

g. https://www.theguardian.com/science/2022/nov/27/atlantis-lost-civilisation-fake-news-netflix-ancient-apocalypse

h. https://theconversation.com/with-netflixs-ancient-apocalypse-graham-hancock-has-declared-war-on-archaeologists-194881

i. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-13965425/ancient-APOCALYPSE-comet-Netflix.html

2. I updated the article providing a RS source saying that GH strongly, and in no uncertain terms, rejected such very serious allegations.

a. Joe Rogan Experience #2136 - 2:02, 2:08, & 2:19.  

b. Hancock has strongly rejected allegations that he is a racist, a white supremacist, etc., as well as other defamatory accusations by the SAA Archaeological Record, saying he was "personally hurt badly...wounded badly". . He has also has expressed support for native rights.

3. I was reverted, and then I reverted...twice, which I freely admit was wrong, although an honest mistake. My sincere apologies.

4. I was given an "edit warring" warning on my home page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bill_the_Cat_7

a. I responded, saying, "I provided an RS, which apparently you didn't agree with. We can discuss it on the talk page should you wish, but I honestly believe you are the one who is "edit warring". Let's take this up on the Talk page. Bill the Cat (talk)"

5. That didn't seem to satisfy User:Hemiauchenia. Instead, the user opened a ticket to the Edit Warring WP site (I can't find the link for this; it may have been deleted), as well as this RS site.

a. Note that I said I was willing to discuss it on the Talk Page of GH.

a. This might be WP:WikiBullying, but I'm not sure and I'm not claiming that it is. 

6. The SAA article claimed that "Hancock’s narrative emboldens extreme voices that misrepresent archaeological knowledge in order to spread false historical narratives that are overtly misogynistic, chauvinistic, racist, and anti-Semitic."

a. Most reasonable people would agree that these are strong accusations and defamatory if they are not true.  According to GH, these accusations and defamatory statements are very much completely false.  

7. I'm NOT suggesting that the article from the SAA be in any way removed or censored. I think it's important. In fact, I think it ought to be expanded to explain what exactly is being claimed and why. However, I maintain that an accurate and equally clear rebuttal in GH's own words, must be included in the article.

8. With the policies linked below, I can provide another RS for GH's full response in his own words (not in WP Voice), to most or all claims leveled against him. Although this discussion should have been explored on GH's Talk Page, my hand has been forced, so I'm engaging here. I can update GH's Talk Page with these points after this has been resolved.

a. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons

b. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Avoid_self-published_sources

9. I haven't seriously edited WP in a quite a long time (12+ years). Forgive me if I don't have neither the time nor inclination to engage in such matters on a regular basis. I'm just a WP Gnome at this point. Nevertheless, much of the article is a direct attack on GH's theories (pseudo this and pseudo that, etc.). Fair enough, since they are sourced. A direct/indirect attack on GH's character/motivations/implications must be responded to, in his own words, for the sake of neutrality. Simply saying that he doesn't agree, without being allowed to speak for himself, is unacceptable.

Thank you. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 15:59, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

This discussion is not about your actions, but whether or not the Joe Rogan experience is an RS, for this content. Slatersteven (talk) 16:12, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

That's true to a certain extent, but I just wanted to provide context. It's about whether a youtube video is an RS for a specific rebuttal in the subject's own voice (i.e., not WP voice). Can you please explain why GH is not allowed, per wiki policies, to do that? I would also truly like you and others to respond to my above points on the GH talk page. Seriously. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 16:38, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

No need, we can respond here (we should be discussions in one place, not spread over multiple talk pagers). And they have been addressed (or rather the question has, as non of the above affects this being an SPS). Slatersteven (talk) 16:54, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Just to say this is not a general forum, and anything other than reliability should be discussed elsewhere. Discussions of behaviour or wikibullying are not appropriate here.

As has been said above the podcast would be reliable for a denial per WP:ABOUTSELF, but not necessarily for the nature of the allegations themselves. So using the subjects own words may not be appropriate, as the nature of the allegations are details about someone other than the subject (see the second point of ABOUTSELF It does not involve claims about third parties). Also if there is disagreement about the exact allegations it may be at odds with the first point (The material is neither unduly self-serving...).

There is no requirement to use the subejcts own words only to report that the allegations behave been denied (see the final sentence of WP:BLPPUBLIC). -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:05, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

• A direct/indirect attack on GH's character/motivations/implications must be responded to, in his own words, for the sake of neutrality. Simply saying that he doesn't agree, without being allowed to speak for himself, is unacceptable. No, this is utterly untrue. The only requirement is the bare statement that he has denied it (ie. X denied the allegations.) In fact, we are often unable to say any more than that. The reason is because there are multiple conflicting requirements here, all of which are important. We cannot use an WP:ABOUTSELF source, even with attribution, for something that is unduly self-serving or which touches on third parties; if someone says "I didn't commit the murder, X did!", we absolutely positively cannot put that quote anywhere in Wikipedia unless we have an independent secondary source. All we can use that source for is a paraphrased non-quotation saying that they denied committing the murder. Even that is sometimes controversial because it rests at a point of tension between the unduly-self-serving limitation of WP:ABOUTSELF and the needs of WP:BLP; but limiting it to an unemotive bare minimum paraphrase of the fact that they denied it is generally seen as a way to thread the needle and meet both requirements. BLP absolutely does not give anyone any article subject some sort of special privilege to put their own personally words, opinions, or broader views on the issue in the article via a non-RS simply because they chose to frame themselves as being under attack (which is what your suggestion here would imply); it's a shield, not a cudgel, which means X denied this is all that it can guarantee. If their broader views about the subject are credible and worth covering, some secondary source will have covered them; if none has, they cannot be included via a primary non-independent source, not ever. --Aquillion (talk) 06:14, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• Is this not a textbook example of WP:ABOUTSELF? As an aside, I would strongly suggest Hancock's response should be in there, given the WP:BLP aspect. If we make it look like someone is saying he's a racist and he's said nowt, the reader may be left with the impression he has tacitly accepted the claims.Boynamedsue (talk) 07:02, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Just looked at the article, the denial is already sourced. I don't really see the need for more information than that.Boynamedsue (talk) 09:47, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Yeah those were my original thoughts. The issue appears to be not Hancock's denial (which is already included), but insisting on using the exact quote of Hancock's denial. ABOUTSELF is reliable for the denial, but not for the details of claims made by a third party. As far as I can tell the SAA doesn't directly claim that Hancock is a racist or white supremacist, but Hancock's denial states that they have. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:04, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

More than anything we risk a BLP violation against Hancock himself by reporting Hancock's words about the SAA. The SAA actually claim his work is informed by outdated racist tropes rather than claiming racist animus against the man himself. I don't think even his most vociferous critics accuse him of actively holding or expressing racist viewpoints, rather than subconscious bias informed by the "scientific racism" of the past as well as the biases of past pseudo-theorists.Boynamedsue (talk) 11:10, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

References

Washington Post & LA Times

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Are these two newspapers still usable sources after the recent interference by the billionaire owners showed that a fact-based reporting can possibly be surpressed by them when it may bring trouble to the billionaires and their businesses by one of the 2024 candidates for US-President? This question is brought to you by the series 'Questions at the Dawn of Fascism'. --Jensbest (talk) 13:54, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

If information comes out about interference with their factual reporting, we should re-evaluate their reliability. I haven't seen anything to suggest that, yet. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:57, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

No, as bias is not a reason to reject them, only lack of factual accuracy. Slatersteven (talk) 13:58, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, they are clearly high-quality sources still. Ymblanter (talk) 13:59, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Let's see how many kowtowing of the owners before the aspiring Führer it takes before the quality of the paper will become questionable. -- When did Noah build the ark? BEFORE the flood -- Jensbest (talk) 14:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

You seem to be confusing the opinion desk for actual journalism, and ignoring that this is very much business as usual for the opinion desk. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 14:27, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not confusing the editorial board with "actual journalism", but this interference shows that the WaPo under Bezos can't be trusted anymore. --Jensbest (talk) 14:36, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

So have they in fact published any false stories as a result of this? Slatersteven (talk) 14:39, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

The interfering of Bezos is a signal that the behaviour twowards Trump is changed. Between 2025 and 2029, the Bezos is expected to compete for $5.6 billion in space launch contracts for the Pentagon. Trump referrred to WaPo in the past as "Amazon Washington Post and hurled invective against Amazon whenever the Washington Post publishes articles that he believes slight him or his Administration. Steven Cheung, the Trump campaign's chief spokesman, embraced the suggestion that the meeting of Trump with Blue Origin CEO David Limp and the announcement of the non-endorsement were linked. Robert Kagan said:“Trump waited to make sure that Bezos did what he said he was going to do, and then met with the Blue Origin people. Which tells us that there was an actual deal made, meaning that Bezos communicated, or through his people, communicated directly with Trump, and they set up this quid pro quo.” - So it is a clear and proven danger that more interference is about to happen. Which for the moment makes WaPo a non reliable source. --Jensbest (talk) 14:57, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Every source has some owner who could possibly skew the fact-basedness of their output. We'd kind of have to see that they had done so to judge. (Similarly, every outlet has someone who could decide whether or not they run an endorsement, whether that title is "owner", "publisher", or "editor in chief".) Nat Gertler (talk) 14:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

History News Network

The article Hirohito currently states in Wikivoice Deeply engaged in military operations, Hirohito commissioned a war room beneath the Tokyo Imperial Palace to closely monitor Japan's military activities. The extensive resources required for regular updates to the Emperor often drew complaints from military officials. To celebrate significant military victories, he rode his white horse in parades in front of the Imperial Palace which is cited entirely to Five Myths About Emperor Hirohito on History News Network. Is this a reliable source for these statements to be in WikiVoice, or should they be attributed to the author Francis Pike, who is a historian? I'm seeking an opinion here because the History News Network piece seems pretty informal and was written shortly after the author's new book was released and doesn't really cite any sources for the information it is presenting. I wanted to ask before I attempted to attribute the statements to Francis Pike. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 03:42, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

On first reading I thought this was related to the History Channel, which is certainly not reliable, but the History News Network is completely unrelated. In general it's reliable, it's written by a recognise academic in the relevant field and I don't see any concerns with the publisher.

For the specific context it seems reliable for everything bar Deeply engaged in military operations, it says he was interested in military affairs. Engaged seems to strong given the source.

In relation to attribution I'm unsure. There are three statements, the war room, resource expenditure, and riding his white horse on parade. Attribution is good, but can cast unfair doubt if misused.

Certainly the last statement doesn't appear to need attribution, as finding details of Hirohito attending such celebrations on his white horse are relatively simple. The war room one is slightly shakier, lots of ther sources discuss the air raid shelter he had built to receive updates from his generals. Churchill had a similar air raid shelter built, and that is called a war room. The expenditure statement is much harder to gage, I would suggest that attribution is probably appropriate.

As an aside it's nice if secondary sources cite their sources, but they don't have to. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:30, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Oh? They don't? There has been large amounts of debate relating to a different subject entirely where editors argued at length that lacking citations hurt the reliability of a text. My apologies, they taught me wrong, as a joke. Joking aside, good to know! I have no experience with the History News Network, and I feel wary by default of things that are formatted as "FIVE FACTS YOU DIDN'T KNOW" (not the exact wording, but still). Brocade River Poems (She/They) 12:19, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

To be completely honest, if you've got someone that's recently published a book writing an article on the same subject as the book in some newsletter, chances are the claims are also in the book because they (most likely) wrote the article to promote their book. Google Books snippet view would indicate some of the claims might be found around p. 207, for example so if anyone at WP:RX is able to provide, say, pp. 205–210 and maybe the introduction as well, or whatever seems most appropriate. Bloomsbury is fairly reputable generally speaking whereas the primary qualifier for History News Network would probably be EXPERTSPS, they do have editors but present themselves as a "newsletter" so I'm not sure how much additional fact checking they'd bother with. Alpha3031 (t • c) 13:38, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

True, the claims they're making are very probably in the book. If I get my hands on a copy of it I'll go looking and probably replace the sources with the book. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 00:21, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Film Music Reporter

This source has been discussed several times before: in May 2011, September 2020, and April 2021. Each time there has been opposition to its use but no consensus recorded anywhere about it being unreliable. The source is currently used on thousands of articles related to composers, films, television, and more, and one such instance is New World Order (The Falcon and the Winter Soldier) which is currently undergoing a GA review where the issue has been raised again. My hope in starting this conversation is that a definitive consensus can be reached and recorded at WP:RS/PS that future discussions can point to.

I think the source should be listed as reliable. I agree with other editors that this is a WP:SPS, and therefore it must be deemed a subject-matter expert if it is to be considered reliable. For years the site has been publishing accurate reports about film and television music including announcements about composer hirings and soundtrack details. Its reports have been referenced in other reliable sources, mainly entertainment journalist sites such as Collider and NME. And it is followed on social media by actual composers and industry insiders. I think there is enough evidence to consider it trusted within the film scoring community, and I think the fact that it is used so widely on Wikipedia already points to the trust that many editors have in it (note that I am not arguing we should consider it reliable because some articles already do).

I have notified relevant WikiProjects about this discussion. - adamstom97 (talk) 09:49, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I do agree that the website does post accurate information and is widely used on film pages (I routinely remove the site as a source in the infobox once the poster/billing block is released. The website has it correct every time). However, do we know who owns/writes for the website? Their About me page doesn't provide clarity. Therefore, I'm not sure how it can be listed as reliable on WP:RSP without the author/owner details. Mike Allen 13:24, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Just an aside but the consensus was record in the RSN archives you found, the archives exist to show what conclusions past discussions came two. It hasn't been summarised any where else. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:26, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

As to the sites reliability WP:SPS needs prior publishing by a independent reliable source, who runs the site isn't disclosed so it's not possible not check if they have been previously published. The other way they could be reliable is by WP:USEBYOTHERS and I'm not seeing a stromg case for that.

How often a source is used on Wikipedia has absolutely nothing to do with how reliable it is, Wikipedia is often used as a reference even though doing so is against policy. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:37, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I clearly stated that "I am not arguing we should consider it reliable because some articles already do", I am just pointing out that the source is widely regarded to be reliable by editors across thousands of pages. That is noteworthy context for this discussion. If nothing else, it means there will be a lot of clean-up to do if consensus here is that it should not be used. - adamstom97 (talk) 13:53, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

And I'm saying editors think Wikipedia is a reliable source for Wikipedia content. Sources should be judged by policies and guidelines, USEONWIKIPEDIA is not one of them. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:14, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I just saw that the May 2011 discussion you linked to was from me. Lol. Well my stance hasn't changed much, we still don't know who writes for the website and it's been 13 years later. Hopefully we can learn more this time around. Mike Allen 13:31, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

So I'm an outsider coming to this website. If the site is used across the board as we say, what is primarily citing? Composers for upcoming films? If its grabbing content that can easily be established by far more trustworthy sources in the future, I'd vouch for failing it as reliable. As MikeAllen has suggested earlier, it looks like the site has not been forthcoming in any way whatsoever within a decade of where their sources come from. If its as simple as that, I wouldn't deem it a reliable source as it appears most of its content can be clarified by other sources who are deemed more reliable. Andrzejbanas (talk) 14:38, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Composers for upcoming films yes, but mostly soundtrack details such as when a soundtrack album is being released and what the tracklist is. - adamstom97 (talk) 15:10, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

While I do approve of such details. A track listing is something that can easily sourced to the subject itself later on as it is relatively uncontroversial information and will all be released in time. While release dates can be tricky and trivial to properly scope out, I feel if this is the only key information there is not that much lost that could not be re-traced back to other sources, especially as there is no information on the site on how the information is tracked. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:29, 29 October 2024 (UTC)