Talk:Israel

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Israel and the Occupied Territories Jerusalem as capital

Map

The little map in the intro section doesn't show the Golan Heights or Judea and Samaria as parts of Israel. Indonesia occupied West Papua, Russia took over Kaliningrad, and these are shown in wikipedia as belonging to Israel. The discrimination of Israel is against wiki's NPOV.Feindfahrt (talk) 23:16, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

"History" - "Traditional view"

We only give the "Traditional view" of history. Don't our Policies require that we give the predominant view, which would be what academic historians say? Also the "Land of Israel" is referred to twice, once as a religious myth and once as an actual place. This is not "clear writing" and is an example of "cultural bias" since a non-Judaeo-Christian will be totally confused by this. Fourtildas (talk) 03:05, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

The Land of Israel serves among Jews and Hebrew speakers as a name for the geographical region known in English as Palestine. Also, the official Hebrew name of the pre-1948 British Mandate was "Palestina-Ay", Ay being an acronym of "Land of Israel" in Hebrew. In contemporary Israeli legal terminology, whenever referring to the territory of the former British Mandate, the term "Land of Israel" is used. So, the term "Land of Israel" does indeed have several interpretations: mythical, religious, geographical etc. As for the traditional vs. academic versions of history - there is a fierce debate among archaeologists and historians about the time before the 7th century BCE, i.e. whether the unified kingdom of the Israelites actually existed or whether it is just a myth. I don't know of serious disagreements about the events since the late 8th century BCE onwards. DrorK (talk) 03:24, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

So, does everyone agree that Wikipedia articles should distinguish between myth and reality? May I put "mythical Land of Israel" and "mythical Jewish kingdoms" where appropriate, so as not to mislead our heathen or atheist readers? Or at least mention that the "Traditional View" is Jewish religious mythology and not the "View" of History Professors at Oxford or UCLA.

Also, I would disagree with DrorK, the debate is not between archaeologists and historians, it is archaeologists and real historians vs. "Bible historians".Fourtildas (talk) 04:04, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

The Bible is not a history book, but many serious researches believe that historical data can be extracted from it. This has been proved to some extent when ancient scripts were found in archaeological excavations, and gave parallel accounts to the ones found in the Bible.

A for the term "mythical" - we can say that the flood described in Genesis is a myth (even though some researchers claim it is based on a real catastrophe), we cannot say the the united kingdom of Israel is a myth, because we do not know that for sure. Some researchers say it is a myth, some say it was probably a real entity, we simply don't have enough information at the present time.

The Land of Israel is a term which always refers to some kind of a geographical entity. When people talk about it as "the land of milk and honey" or "the promised land" they talk about it as a kind of myth, because anyone who lives in it knows it can be dry and difficult to cultivate in certain times, that it can have deadly earthquakes etc. When people talk about the land "between the River of Egypt and the Euphrates" they also refer to a kind of myth, because the borders of this land never stretched so widely. Nevertheless, there is always some kind of geographical references in the term "the Land of Israel". DrorK (talk) 06:21, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

For the record, that the united kingdom of Israel existed is a view held by an overwhelming majority of historians who specialize in that period. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 20:59, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Drork says: "many serious researches believe that historical data can be extracted from it".Jalapenos do exist says: "united kingdom of Israel existed is a view held by an overwhelming majority of historians who specialize in that period". This article needs a source for Jewish kingdoms (we are not supposed to cite other Wikipedia articles). Can one of you find a suitable source among these researchers, preferably a recent peer-reviewed paper or university level textbook. The sources in the linked article are decades old, so a reader might think this view is no longer supported. Fourtildas (talk) 02:26, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Phew, it's a bit like asking if I have sources to prove that the United States used to be British colonies. There are so many sources. I am not acquainted with the academic material, but I can give you archaeological stuff: Mesha Stele tells about the wars between the northern kingdom of Israel (Ephraim) and Moab, Taylr Prism, where Sennacherib reports his war with the kingdom of Judah (among other things), Siloam inscription, all kind of stamps, with names known from the Bible, found in Jerusalem and all across the country. As far as I know, the only part not 100% proved is the unification period described in the Bible. DrorK (talk) 17:42, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

The academic material is based on interpretation of the archaeological stuff by historians. We humble editors are not supposed to play amateur historian. Histories (not "Bible history") of the region (sometimes referred to as the "Near East") go into considerable detail about the various peoples and empires in Palestine and neighbours, but do not mention Jewish Kingdoms. I have looked through the sources for Wikipedia articles on the period but they are a hopeless muddle of bible stories with a few bits of other info thrown in. A Wikipedia history article is supposed to tell me the predominant view of historians (plus significant minority views, if any). In it's present state, Wikipedia gives me no such info. If you removed everything that has only primary sources (as our policies require) such as the bible and the others you mention there would not be much left of these so-called "histories". Fourtildas (talk) 04:44, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

A stone was found buried in the ground telling about a war between the king of Israel and the king of Moab. To my naked ears it sounds like a strong reference to a kingdom called Israel, or am I wrong? DrorK (talk) 06:48, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

There is no doubt whatsoever from any historian that there was a kingdom of Israel and a kingdom of Judah. A few ones are not convinced that the united kingdom did exist before them but this is a minority view. Maybe one day we will find something that clears the picture in one way or the other but in the meantime, this is what there is.Benjil (talk) 09:52, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Demography

The percent of Arabs and Muslims are not real. According to my source it is 19.5 % Arab and 16.1% Muslim.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Huss-mu (talk • contribs) 19:54, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't see the problem. The article says (demographics section): "Making up 16.2% of the population, Muslims constitute Israel's largest religious minority. About 2% of the population are Christian and 1.5% are Druze." okedem (talk) 20:39, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

The fact that this country article is continously locked is significant

I don't observe many other country/nation-state articles that are locked continuously as this one. I don't know how any of you expect this article to maintain the openness that is usually a standard of Wikipedia articles.71.113.252.54 (talk) 01:45, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

It's not locked. It's semi-protected because of vandalism. Anyone can register for an account and once it's autoconfirmed they can edit the article. Sean.hoyland - talk 02:12, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

{{geodata-check}} The coordinates need the following fixes:

• Write here

62.90.45.107 (talk) 05:34, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

tweaked coordinates. Rami R 08:51, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Link to the CIA world fact book

When you try to open the link, you get "Not Found The requested object does not exist on this server. The link you followed is either outdated, inaccurate, or the server has been instructed not to let you have it." [1] The website requires a capital IS, not a lowercase is. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/IS.html. I tried to fix the link on the page, but it goes back to lowercase. Does anyone know how to fix it? Thanks, Onopearls ^(t/c) 18:21, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I've amended it together with the url for the "cia" named ref. Sean.hoyland - talk 01:56, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Human Rights Violations

Something about the states human rights abuses and disregard for international law should feature in the article(Interestedinfairness (talk) 21:45, 16 June 2009 (UTC)).

There is an article called Human Rights in Israel that allows for more detail than the main article. As for international law, International law and the Arab–Israeli conflict is a place to start. Schrodingers Mongoose (talk) 04:00, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

From my readings of the article, only the views of Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International are mentioned. I think the article "Human Rights in Israel" should be linked in the article, either as a sub topic, or under "see also" in order to expand and improve the article...Interestedinfairness (talk) 22:12, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

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In the South Africa Wikipedia article, the apartheid history is mentioned already in the preamble. Israel's article should in my opinion feature some discussion on the segregation policies in place in the West Bank, and a link to the "Israel apartheid" article. In the History section, it's stated simply that Palestinian refugees "fled the country" in 1948, which gives the reader no hint that they'd have been purposefully expelled. --Dailycare (talk) 11:15, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

UN Security Council Res. 242 and 338 and Disputed Territories

UN Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338 support the claim of Disputed Territories. The government of Israel declares that they are disputed and not occupied. Since the UN resolutions do not declare Israel is occupying these territories plus the fact that Fourth Geneva Convention does not apply to Israel since there was no sovereign power ruling over the land before it was mandated, there is a strong argument that they are not occupied. The only neutral term between Occupied and Not Occupied is Disputed.

Editors in previous discussions that supported changing the title from Occupied to Disputed Territories:

-Avinyc -Tad Lincoln -DrorK (as long as all articles are consistent with the change) -Ynhockey -okedem -Benjil

Editors against changing the title and leave it as Occupied Territories:

-Peter cohen -CasualObserver'48 -RomaC -EoinBach -harlan -Ezzex

Despite some biased editors who wish to bombard this discussion with block quotes to lengthen their POV, it is quite clear there is a balance of debate on this topic. The argument to leave things as status quo because "it's the way it has always been" would not be a wise position to claim.

Arguments are also not considering that Disputed Territories is a NPOV title between the belief that the territories are Conquered vs. Occupied. Avinyc (talk) 17:55, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

In fact e.g. UN Security Council resolution 478 (passed 14-0 in 1980) states the territories are occupied, and that the Fourth Geneva Convention applies. The International Court of Justice shares the view that the territories are occupied, and that the 4th Geneva Convention applies. There is thus not in fact a "balance" in opinion in the matter since Israel stands very isolated. --Dailycare (talk) 11:00, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

I prefer to bombard the discussion with long blocks of very relevant quotes. Like this one from the Foreign relations of the United States, 1964-1968, Volume XVIII Arab-Israeli Dispute, Page 1015, Document 515, published by the US State Department Historian in 2004:

515. Memorandum for the Files/1/

Washington, November 8, 1967, 5:37-6:29 p.m.

SUBJECT Meeting Between President Johnson, King Hussein and Secretary Rusk on Wednesday, November 8 at 5:30 p.m.

Following the meeting between the President and the King, Secretary Rusk gave me some of the highlights of the discussion.

The meeting was cordial and a few minutes were spent in pleasantries, including the presentation of a cigarette lighter to His Majesty by President Johnson.

Discussions centered on the U.S. resolution currently before the Security Council. The President pressed the King to support the U.S. resolution. He pointed out that the resolution is to be a compromise resolution. The Government of Israel is not happy with the text; the Arabs are not happy with the text. It is difficult to draft a resolution that makes both sides happy, but it is imperative that both sides accept the resolution if it is to be implemented.

King Hussein tried his best to get precision on the clause with respect to withdrawal of Israeli forces. The President replied that it was difficult to be precise in one part and not on the others. There were imprecise statements in the resolution in several respects. The King then said that if it was impossible to be precise as to when or where withdrawal should take place, he hoped that it would be possible to be precise with regard to the question of who was to withdraw. The phraseology of the resolution calling for withdrawal from occupied territories could be interpreted to mean that the Egyptians should withdraw from Gaza and the Jordanians should withdraw from the West Bank. This possibility was evident from the speech by Prime Minister Eshkol in which the Prime Minister had referred to both Gaza and the West Bank as "occupied territory".

The President agreed to talk with Ambassador Goldberg in New York and he and Secretary Rusk told the King that we would be back in touch with him by noon the following day with respect to his suggestion for inclusion of the word "Israeli" before the word withdrawal in the resolution.

/1/Source: Johnson Library, National Security File, Country File, Jordan, Vol. IV. Secret. Drafted on November 11. An attached note of November 22 from Saunders to Walt Rostow's secretary, Lois Nivens, instructed her to put a copy in her files, since it was the only record of the President's meeting with King Hussein that would be available in the White House. The meeting took place in the Oval Office. The time and place of the meeting are from the President's Daily Diary. (Ibid.) harlan (talk) 11:30, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

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The occupied territory-section currently mentions that "Israel has applied civilian law to the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem, incorporating them into its territory" without mentioning that the annexation has been declared "null and void" and a "violation of international law" by the UN Security Council in resolution 478, which further instructs Israel to rescind the annexation. In order to reach a neutral description, this should in my opinion be mentioned in addition to or instead of merely stating that East Jerusalem is a "difficult question". Resolution 478 is mentioned now only in footnote 1 which pertains to a different part of the article. --Dailycare (talk) 15:35, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

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Mount Hermon picture must be removed!

There is a picture at the bottom of a mountain in Syria - Mount Hermon, that picture must be removed from this article, --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:16, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, it is not up to you to define the Middle Eastern borders. DrorK (talk) 12:13, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

It isn't up to you either. The internationally recognised borders are wuite clear. Mount Hermon is on the broder between Syria and Lebanon, not in Israel.--Peter cohen (talk) 12:43, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

This is Wikipedia, not the UN. Wikipedia describes the facts on the grounds, not the wishes of certain countries or regimes. This picture was taken in a place governed by Israel, and accessible freely from within Israel. The fact that it is claimed by another country and the background for this claim is explained in details, but there is no reason to remove the image. Just as you may put images from Northern Ireland in the article about the United Kingdom, you may use this image here. DrorK (talk) 15:55, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

As you said, Wikipedia does not accord to the wishes of certain countries and regimes. The wishes of the Israeli regime should not be given WP:Undue weight to a minority point of view when the internationally recognised borders do not place any of Mount Hermon in Israel.--Peter cohen (talk) 16:26, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

This is not a question of wishes. Mount Hermon *is* under Israeli rule ; whether you like it or not, that's nor really relevant. Benjil (talk) 18:41, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I beg one of the administrators to put this article under higher protection. Apparently there are people who try to use this article as a platform for promoting political views. DrorK (talk) 18:29, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I've removed the gallery section (that includes this image) completely, as I don't really see the encyclopedic value in it. The article has enough images as is, and WP:IG seems to suggest that galleries are in general not advised. If it is decided to retain the gallery, I believe that including the image without any special explanation in the captions is a NPOV violation, as it implies the POV that the mountain is Israeli territory just like any other, and that is clearly disputed. Rami R 20:01, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Just as well. I've now noticed that it contains pictures of the Dome on the Rock.--Peter cohen (talk) 22:00, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Religious sites in Old City are not internationally recognised as being in Israel

In line with WP:NPOV, I have clarified that the religious sites in the Old City of Jerusalem are in East Jerusalem adn under Israeli control to remove the misleading impression that they are internationally recognised as being in Israel.--Peter cohen (talk) 13:43, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

This issue certainly could attract an easy edit war. However, the wording that Peter cohen is trying to add doesn't remove any content, and it improves the paragraph by adding a couple words which do in fact make this a more WP:NPOV way of stating things. "Administered" is a pretty good way of indicating Israeli control, without making a more confusing statement on sovereignty over the area. Hiberniantears (talk) 16:31, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't think "administer" is the right word since the temple mount is administered by the Palestinian Wafk but still under Israeli control. So "control" or "de facto sovereignity" is better. Also I think we should change the wording, "Such as the Israeli controlled/administered Old City" gives a much better flow to the text than "Israel controls/administers the Old City". Fipplet (talk) 20:28, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm content with that apart form the missing hyphen which I'm about to insert.--Peter cohen (talk) 20:39, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh I see that Supreme Deliciousness has changed it back. I'm happy with either version. Hopefully he or she can join the discussion here and we can reach a consensus.--Peter cohen (talk) 20:44, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Human Rights Violations

Something about the states human rights abuses and disregard for international law should feature in the article(Interestedinfairness (talk) 21:45, 16 June 2009 (UTC)).

There is an article called Human Rights in Israel that allows for more detail than the main article. As for international law, International law and the Arab–Israeli conflict is a place to start. Schrodingers Mongoose (talk) 04:00, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

From my readings of the article, only the views of Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International are mentioned. I think the article "Human Rights in Israel" should be linked in the article, either as a sub topic, or under "see also" in order to expand and improve the article...Interestedinfairness (talk) 22:12, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

editsemiprotected

{{editsemiprotected}} Israek is not the only democracy. There are elections in Lebanon and Iran —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.247.60.143 (talk) 00:36, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Democracy is not defined only by elections but by other characteristics like the rule of the law, freedom of the individual, respect of the human rights. Lebanon and Iran do not share these characteristics. Furthermore, elections in Iran are not free (even if the results were true) and in Lebanon, elections depend on ethnic and religious factors contrary to democratic principles. Benjil (talk) 13:47, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:33, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

By your definition of democracy, Benjil, I would not say Israel is a democracy either. But I don't think democracy is as universal as you posit.

Israel's human rights record is on par with Iran's, according to the UN, if not worse. The Arab population of Israel faces widespread and documented discrimination. The Jewish population in Iran does not.

Your statement about Lebanon's elections depending on ethnic and religious factors is interesting, what do you actually mean? If you mean the Shii's vote for Hezbollah, or that the Christians vote for the Christian, then you would be correct. But what is the difference between the Conservative voting for the Conservative party, or the racist voting for the far-right Avigdor Lieberman.

What about Iraq? They have elections don't they? With regards to Human rights, I don't recall the last time Iraq went against int. law, but Israel refuses to get out of occupied land, the West Bank Barrier is illegal under int. Law also.

To conclude, I don't think its the only democracy in the Middle East, this is blatantly a POV statement that is only said by the the Israeli foreign office when their nation allegedly commits crimes. (Interestedinfairness (talk) 11:55, 23 June 2009 (UTC)).

Israel's record on human rights is very high and better than even many western countries. The UN is hardly a credible source on this issue as it is a very biased political body. The Arab population faces no legal discriminations at all, they have the exact same rights as the Jews, in fact Jews feel discriminated - they have to serve 3 years in the army, the Arabs don't. The Jewish community in Iran is in such a good situation that most of Iranian Jews left the country and the tiny community left, being of no threat to the regime, is just not persecuted - that's so nice.

Regarding Lebanon, you apparently do not know that the mandates are distributed according to a religious and ethnic key. I quote wikipedia: "High-ranking offices are reserved for members of specific religious groups. The President, for example, has to be a Maronite Christian, the Prime Minister a Sunni Muslim and the Speaker of the Parliament a Shi’a Muslim. Lebanon's national legislature is the unicameral Parliament of Lebanon. Its 128 seats are divided equally between Muslims and Christians, proportionately between the 18 different denominations and proportionately between its 26 regions." This is not truly democratic : in a true democracy, anybody can be President even if he is not a Maronite, and the seats are divided according to the demographic reality.

What about Iraq ? No idea, it does not seem to be a very free country for the moment. We will see in the future.

Israel is the only real democracy in the Middle East with maybe Turkey if you count it in the Middle East. That's not POV, that's a fact. You really should buy a plane ticket, come to see Israel with your own eyes, and you will understand that the propaganda you have been fed with is just lies Benjil (talk) 12:46, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

• Besides the point. The UN is only considered bias when it comes to Israel.

Furthermore, the notion of Democracy is not universal. The claim that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East is a slogan, a propaganda tool if you like, to legitimize the states alleged war crimes over the past 60 years. It does not need to be mentioned in the article because it creates more problems regarding NPOV than it sorts out. This is not a place to push an Israeli marketing campaign to audiences across the world.

This is an encyclopedia, and commenting that Israel is more democratic than the "West" is absured, how about the fact that Israel is the only democracy in the world that has no civil marriage.

In conclusion, the sentence "Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East" needs to be ommited or changed to read something more neutral. (Interestedinfairness (talk) 13:24, 23 June 2009 (UTC)).

The notion of democracy is universal. Human beings are the same everywhere. The idea that democracy is just a western cultural thing is both racist and a way to legitimize dictatorships. Regarding the rest of your allegations, please understand that wikipedia is not a tool for your personal propaganda. You obviously know nothing about Israel so why are you even here if you have no knowledge of the subject ?Benjil (talk) 13:30, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

In so far as "democracy" exists, I believe that Israel is in league with western Europe, the USA, Canada, Australia etc. I have no doubt that an Arab who accepts the State of Israel and embraces Israeli custom may live as freely as all Jewish citizens. User:Interestedinfairness is simply pointing out that certain actions - of which Israel has been accused (note that I am not personally making accusations) - are, if proven true, just as bad as the actions of other entities who have been made to suffer for their actions. I refer to times that a US-led alliance may have repelled some national forces back to their UN recognised borders; or perhaps tribunals have been created to deal with certain perpetrators of specific atrocities, whilst others are ignored. "Democracy" has its limitations everywhere. We can mention far-rght parties in some countries, but to take an example that shouldn't upset anyone concerned with Israel: Lithuania banned Communism as an ideology after its independence from the Soviet Union. Its former Communist party had already moved away from its ideology of 50 years earlier - and is a part of the system which stifles communism - but new parties to this day cannot adopt Marxist beliefs. If the same thing thing had happened in Moldova, we'd know - paradoxically - the majority would be suppresed. In that country, the Communists have the presidency and the premiership. They have no true opposition at present. At their last elections, the claims of fraud did not come from the Liberals who came second but from neighbouring Romania! What you need to remember Benjil, is that "democracy" and all its tools pertain to a population, however big or small. Israel's alleged actions have been against persons outside of that population, even though within Israel itself. I know User:Interestedinfairness for our discussions regarding Kosovo. In pre-1999 Kosovo, the actions on the part of the FR Yugoslavia were not "barbaric acts against its own citizens" but "barbaric acts against a rebelling nation", in other words, a clampdown, a purge, or perhaps an operation against treason. You don't have to convince me personally of Israel's rights or wrongs, or that of the Arabs, I don't dispute anything! I just hope that you two users can reach an agreement not to bite at each other. Evlekis (talk) 15:04, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Of course no democracy is perfect and Israel is far from perfect. The issue was mainly about internal issues and not true or false accusations against Israel about its actions against non-Israeli citizens, as you said. I do not know user Interestedinfairness, but I have years of discussions about Israel and the Israeli-Arab conflict behind me, and I am pretty used to the usual anti-Israel lies/propaganda. I know where it comes from, I know what they try to do, and I am just tired to waste my time debunking the same old ignorant rants over and over again.Benjil (talk) 15:34, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Ignorant rants. WOW chill out, this is Wikipedia, not the UN and you don't have to convince me of Israelis democratic credentials. Not every one who apposes the actions of a state is anti-Israeli; in fact, My people have a Jewish population and were known for saving Jews during WW2. Its ignorant shits like you who make people dislike Israelis. (Interestedinfairness (talk) 21:28, 23 June 2009 (UTC)).

If you are not anti-Israel, I am very happy, but you should refrain from speaking about "war crimes" and comparing human rights in Israel to Iran, because I dare not imagine what you would say if you were anti-Israel. And be careful, you could be mistaken for a racist when you say that just one guys makes you "dislike" all the Israelis. Imagine that I would say that "a shit like you" makes people dislike... whatever people you are from, apparently Albanian - and we know how well loved are the Albanians in Europe, so you should really think a little more before you open your mouth. Benjil (talk) 21:41, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Your not on my level of intellect to enjoy my company on Wikipedia. Get a life, and more importantly a good text book. (Interestedinfairness (talk) 21:43, 23 June 2009 (UTC)).

Thank you to make my day start with a big laugh. Benjil (talk) 05:18, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Can the two of you not poke at each other as over the past day or so. To Interestedinfairness, there really is no need to refer to fellow users as you did late yesterday evening, nor to attack anyone's intellect. Try to exercise tact and assume good faith. Benjil has in a previous statement accepted that Israel is "far from perfect" so the user is clearly not promoting hatred or nationalism. The conversation as has been so far does not need to continue because it really is not constructive, and it doesn't involve any changes to the Israel article. Views will always be views and most Israelis accept that their nation is disliked because of the accusations made against them, and that in itself can be difficult to live with; particularly when all subjects have alternative views/versions of events and Israelis too have the right to defend their nation from remarks made by outsiders. To that end, Albanians are not hated in Europe Benjil. In the UK where I live, the average person is so ignorant that he wouldn't know whether Kosovo an island off the shore of Gaza! To most here, "foreigners are foreigners" but among those who know better: Albanians are known to be honest and hard-working. So no more attacks on nationals, nor countries please! Evlekis (talk) 12:14, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Erm, excuse me but the "average" British person is not ignorant and what do you mean "foreigners are foreigners", what a ridiculous statmeent, clearly you don't live in the U.K. or if you do, you live in some shit part up North. By the way, most people don't hate Israelis, most people hate the Israeli government.

Sorry I made a mistake, I mean the more intelligent British person is ignorant, the "average" is totally brain-dead! Come on Fairness, you know how much savy the British have when it comes to foreign people and lands? Show most of them a map of Europe and most will have a job to find Ireland!! And I live in the south, not the north; and I was referring to the fact that Israelis/Jews often find themselves victims of hatred because of their government. Governments often influence people's perceptions of nations. Evlekis (talk) 13:50, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Back to the article, I still think the Human rights issues should be mentioned in the article, I mean what's the point of trying to hide them??? (Interestedinfairness (talk) 12:51, 24 June 2009 (UTC)).

An article already exists: Human rights in Israel. Evlekis (talk) 14:34, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah but its not linked in the article and its a usually a very popular topic in the media and so forth. Would merit a place in the article methinks. (Interestedinfairness (talk) 22:03, 24 June 2009 (UTC)).

It is already linked in the article, in the Government section. --Leivick (talk) 22:13, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree that Israel is not the only democracy and that is Zionist Propaganda. I think that that sentence should be removed. Iraq, Iran, and Lebanon have elections if that is your definition of Democracy. If democracies have to be nice to all people than Israel is discrimatry towards Palestinians. Palestinians have no rights there. And by the way, the UN is biased towards Israel because it is not stopping the conclift and letting Israel do it's barabric trotures. 99.247.60.143 (talk) 22:02, 29 June 2009 (UTC)