Talk:2019–20 Australian bushfire season/Archive 5

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Bushfires are over. Request to change status

The bushfires have largely been extinguished. We should make the appropriate changes to this article to reflect the situation. Who agrees with me?

The Australian bushfire season does not end until April/May. This is irrespective of whether there are any catastrophic fires burning or not. Sign your posts, btw. Mr rnddude (talk) 01:44, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Season isn't over just because SE Qld, eastern NSW and far east of Vic had rain which has help control and list fires as out, there is still SA, WA and parts of Vic and southern NSW who are still dry. Bidgee (talk) 03:43, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Hmmmm? Helicopters with water bombing bags were still flying today on the far south coast of New South Wales ... ! We have 40kha of fire ground with active active areas the edge of which is only 6km away, so a few hot days and anything other than an easterly wind and it will be bloody dangerous again. (And that is after at least 150mm of rain!) Aoziwe (talk) 11:22, 20 February 2020 (UTC) (PS And that does not include the VIC-NSW border fires. Aoziwe (talk) 11:26, 20 February 2020 (UTC))

FYI - update: Far SE NSW as of morning 25 Feb still had ~200 "hot spots", one running edge on a fire ground, and [nine] helicopters [stationed at Merimbula airport] running FLIR surveilance, water bombing, and remote area fire team insertions ... according to the RFS on ABC radio. Aoziwe (talk) 11:54, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

An IP editor today declared this fire season over, by putting "Mar 2020" in the Infobox as the end date. I reverted, because this an article for the whole of Australia, and we simply cannot know that there will be no more fires. Then my best mate Pete/Skyring who, although our mutual interaction ban has long since ceased, still keeps a close eye on my work just in case I stuff up and he needs to publicly point it out, re-reverted, accusing ME of having a crystal ball. I say again, we simply cannot declare the fire season to be over for the whole country at this point in time. HiLo48 (talk) 02:20, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Nothing personal, HiLo. I merely wondered about the logic of when the current season ends. Is there some settled date? If the fires stop burning and don't start up again, then do we regard the season as ending when the last fire smoulders out? Or is there some official ending date gazetted by authority?

It seems to me that if we say that the season is ongoing when there are, in point of fact, no actual bushfires remaining, then there can only be two bases for declaring that the season is ongoing:

1. There is some future date and we have not yet reached that date. If so, why not simply state the accepted future end date in our article? Is there some reason why it should be secret or nebulous?

2. There will be more bushfires in the current season. Well, there might be, but if anybody has the power to assess this ahead of time, please report to the State Fire Authority with your skills. We have need of you!

Is there some established wikiprecedent on this point? When do we as editors declare a season over, rather than ongoing? Perhaps that can provide a way forward? --Pete (talk) 06:47, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

I don't know the answers to all your questions. The critical thing is that you felt the need to ask them, highlighting the fact that you can't say with certainty that the fire season is over. Doing so would seem to be an act of synthesis anyway. HiLo48 (talk) 07:43, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Lay off me, HiLo. This isn't about you. If you can't provide some editorial input here, why don't you butt out? You reverted a change, we're now discussing it as per BRD, but you don't have any useful answers to my questions about format. Thanks for your input.

For everyone else here, I see from looking at previous articles in this series, that the five most recent seasons are listed as ending in May. Some of them are noted to have started in June the previous year, effectively making a bushfire season of 12 months.

Why don't we just bite the bullet and declare that Australian bushfire seasons are now July to June - like the tax year?

If, on the other hand, the season depends on actual fires, and there are no actual fires, then saying that it is ongoing seems like crystal-balling. --Pete (talk) 08:00, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

The season does not depend on active fires, but on the risk of fires (and that is highly variable across the nation, hence no specific dates). Right now, due to the flooding risks that much (most? I'm seeing flood warnings for all states and territories) of Australia is facing, the fire risk is relatively low (There is a current severe risk of fire warning in two areas of WA by BOM1) To answer the question [w]hen do we as editors declare a season over? Editors don't. Mr rnddude (talk) 09:19, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Obviously we aren't controlling weather and fires and so on out in the physical world, but we do control this little bit of the Internet, and looking at previous articles in this series, somebody picks an end date, and that's what the article says. What, I'm wondering, is the protocol for doing this? Based on previous years, I mean. --Pete (talk) 10:42, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Fire danger period (FDP) is still current for most of NSW (until 31 March, though can be extended in regions if required) but has ended in the NE corner on 1 March. FDP is current until 1 April in most of Victoria, FDS (Fire Danger Seasons) will be from 15-30 April over most of South Australia. Western Australia on the other hand uses "Prohibited Burning Period" (typically 1 Dec-31 Mar) and "Restrictive Burning Period" (typically 1 Apr-31 May and 1 Oct-30 Nov).

While the rain has eased conditions over most of the east coast, a lull in fires doesn't mean the season is over. At 27 Feb, Snowy Complex fire is still burning in Victoria (contained does not mean it is out, just that it is behind control lines) and the Commissioner has warned that Vic is still risk of fires. A fire season does not rely on active fire, like a Cyclone season does not rely on cyclones, it is typically the period of time that the risk is at its highest and some seasons are longer than others. Bidgee (talk) 11:58, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

…it is typically the period of time that the risk is at its highest and some seasons are longer than others. Is there a source we can use? Our article is not showing any bushfires as still burning. The ten previous articles in this series all use the BoM source to say that the season ends in May. We need a source. Or sources, given that there is no central bushfire authority. --Pete (talk) 19:21, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

FWIW - FYI: There were still helicopters carrying water bombing baskets out of Merimbula airport yesterday ... (It has rained all today though. But again, we are so far behind on rainfall it will only take a few hot days with dry westerlies and it will be on again ... There is so much dead and drought affected timber in the forests, with years of fuel build up, just waiting to burn ...) Aoziwe (talk) 10:37, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

I asked Google "when does australian bush fire season end", which turned up (amongst other things):

• NSW Rural Fire services says: "The statutory Bush Fire Danger Period normally starts on 1 October and continues through the following 31 March."
• ACT Government says: "The ACT bushfire season usually commences on 1 October and runs through until until 31 March unless conditions warrant an extension."
• Bureau of Meteorology says it varies across the country, but "Figure 1: Fire seasons in Australia" includes "Summer and autumn" for the southern-most parts of the country

So, even in the absence of any fires, we can surely say that the "Australian season" lasts at least until the end of March. Mitch Ames (talk) 11:59, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Mitch! Ulk. That doesn't help as much as I hoped. State by state or continent-wide? How do we choose?

One thing seems certain to me. We as editors cannot make our own determination. We need a source. I wonder what the sourcing for previous season articles was? --Pete (talk) 14:55, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

One only has to look at Bushfires in Australia#Seasonality ... Aoziwe (talk) 12:12, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Surely the logical answer is to leave the end date as "ongoing" until 30 June, then look back at when the last significant fire was, and put a finishing date in place of "ongoing" then. HiLo48 (talk) 21:40, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

I see no need to adding an end date yet, as that day hasn't come yet! Season may finish in April it may finish in June (since fire agencies can extend the fire danger period/season when required), we just don't have a crystal ball to know what the next few months are going to be like. Bidgee (talk) 23:25, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Obviously I agree, and must point out the irony of an editor who wants to insert an end date accusing me of using a crystal ball. HiLo48 (talk) 00:04, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

There are really only two ways we can say it ends. If we have an official future date for the end of the season - a circumstance which is so commonplace in sporting seasons etc. as to not be worthy of comment - then we can use that. Otherwise, if it depends on the actual presence of bushfires and the bushfires have ended, then we can use that. Saying, without a shred of evidence, that there will be future bushfires and therefore the season is ongoing without fires, is a clear case of WP:CRYSTAL. This isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of reality in editing the article.

Perhaps we can have an RfC and vote on the end date? Perhaps we can run a pool? --Pete (talk) 00:18, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Bothered looking at Western Australia and Tasmania? There are still fires burning. Even Victoria still has fires listed as "under control" and "contained", which doesn't mean the fires are out just that they are still burning but not out of control. Bidgee (talk) 00:41, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

There are always going to be bushfires somewhere. But your position seems to be that the end of the season is flexible, depending on the original research of editors as to what constitutes enough of a fire to leave a scorch mark on Wikipedia. This looks to be in contrast to our long-established consensus.

2018–19 Australian bushfire season Declared on 30 November 2018 to end in May 2019.

2017–18 Australian bushfire season Declared on 5 January 2018 to end in May 2018.

2016–17 Australian bushfire season Declared on 16 February 2017 to end in May 2017.

2015–16 Australian bushfire season Declared on 11 September 2015 to end in May 2016.

2014–15 Australian bushfire season Declared on 1 November 2014 to end in May 2015.

and

2009–10 Australian bushfire season Declared on 21 November 2009 to end in May 2010.

So. We've always declared that the season ends in May - as per a good official source in the Bureau of Meteorology noted above, and we've done so up to nine months in advance. Does anybody have a good argument as to why we should now change this longstanding consensus to suit the whims of original research and personal opinion? I'm all ears. --Pete (talk) 01:47, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

There is no consensus. Bidgee (talk) 02:48, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

How do you see that? For over ten years - links provided above - we have shown the current year's bushfire season as ending in May, and every year - again as per the diffs shown above - we have listed this several months ahead of time. I reckon ten years plus counts as a jolly good consensus in Wikipedia.

I'm counting four reverts by you in less than 24 hours. Please self-revert or I'll take this further. It looks to me like you are putting ego ahead of a very long consensus here, for no good reason that I can see. --Pete (talk) 02:54, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

That seems to be more a case of other stuff exists, rather than consensus. And it's historically become seen as acceptable to technically breach WP:3RR when reverting the efforts of someone editing without achieving consensus on the Talk page. My view on this article (all articles really) is that, rather than blindly following previous examples, we make it as good as we can today. HiLo48 (talk) 03:30, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

See this section in OSE. We're talking about keeping the same format in a template for a series of articles differing only in year. Saying that this article is significantly different and we should throw away ten years of consensus needs a pretty solid argument IMHO, and WP:IDLI isn't good enough to overturn that. Do you have any good reason to insist that we change our tack now? We've got a solid source in the Bureau of Meteorology as to when the annual bushfire season ends. Do you have a better one? --Pete (talk) 03:43, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm having trouble keeping up with what you are actually arguing for here. It seems to have changed a lot since the discussion began. And you are certainly misrepresenting my position. Please don't do that. HiLo48 (talk) 03:53, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

As per above. See links provided. For the past ten years and more we have created an annual article on the current year's bushfire season. Every one of those shows the bushfire season as ending in May, and we have always stated this several months in advance of that date. As per the diffs I've dug out. We don't wait for the bushfires to end, we don't guess, we go by the Bureau of Meteorology saying that's when the season ends. Again, link is provided above. Could you answer my questions as to why you think we should go against ten years of consensus, please? I'm not just picking a date out of my bum; I'm guided by what we've done for the past ten years here, but you seem to think we should change, and I'd like to hear your argument for this. --Pete (talk) 03:59, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

My argument is simply that we could do it better. Although I'm now an old fart, I have never accepted "We've always done it that way" as a reason to keep doing anything. HiLo48 (talk) 06:03, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Of course. If there is a better way to do something, then let it be done that way. But how, exactly, is this better? If you want to break long-established consensus then could you provide details of the improvements? --Pete (talk) 06:13, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Not playing any more of your silly baiting games thanks. I have made my position clear enough for anyone who wishes to understand it. HiLo48 (talk) 06:18, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Not playing a game, HiLo. I'm just trying to understand why you want to change the longstanding consensus on template format without giving any reasons as to how it is better than what we've always had. I've just reviewed the discussion archives. The change to "ongoing" was made by an IP editor here and not raised again in discussion until a different IP editor changed it to the current month. Neither you nor anybody else mentioned the end of the season, though there were some comments about the start. If it's an improvement on the existing format, it seems to have gone unremarked by all. What is the improvement you are now championing, exactly? You must have some reason for saying it is an improvement, surely? --Pete (talk) 06:34, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

I think it's important to let all involved here know that Pete/Skyring has reported Bidgee for Edit warring on this matter. See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Bidgee_reported_by_User:Skyring_(Result:_) HiLo48 (talk) 06:20, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

As per warning given above here and referenced here and notified on user talk here. Bidgee reverted four times in 24 hours. That's counter to policy, as you know. --Pete (talk) 06:34, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

It's also counter to policy to ignore every single editor on this talk page and then try to force your desired changes in. It is not yet May 2020, so by definition the season is ongoing. Mr rnddude (talk) 08:25, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

I don't think responding to others is ignoring them, brother. But hey, like the toilet paper wars, let's put all this behind us. --Pete (talk) 10:00, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Sorry but I could not resist - ironic considering this!! Aoziwe (talk) 10:30, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Page protected

Okay, I have full-protected the page to stop the argy-bargy. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:16, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Cas Liber, see the IP edits on this talk page. Can we have a semi protect here? Aoziwe (talk) 12:06, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

That troublesome IP editor has been blocked. I don't believe there are any edits from them remaining here. Feel free to delete them if you see any. HiLo48 (talk) 07:05, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

• Right, trying to digest this. Have read through and the consensus from everyone is to leave as ongoing except Skyring (talk · contribs) who states it should be march but provides some links to previous seasons saying it should be....May? I am puzzled. Agree it should be reffed to sources, so if we could bring it back to that below that would be good. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:22, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Taking up the way forward outlined by Cas Liber, I'm going to suggest an RfC as to the way forward. Anyone keen to draft something that canvasses the options discussed above? --Pete (talk) 10:00, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Not sure that it is clear to me what the argued options out of the above actually are. Are they:

1 Leave as ongoing until time has run its course and come June see what is available in sources, ie no crystal balling

2 Model on what has been done before as a currnt concensus / precedent

3 Go to some actual sources, eg,

a typical example of bush fire frequency - see figure 5: https://www.bushfirecrc.com/sites/default/files/managed/resource/posterprogc-bryant.pdf - seems to indicate why the colloquial season should range from June to May? ie, the minimum is at the end of May / start of June?

Not sure if this helps - needs aggregation across states: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4785963/

4 define separately for southern and eastern Australia versus central Australia versus northern and tropical Australia

Do we really need and RFC and will it help? As per Bushfires in Australia#Seasonality there is not really one season for the whole of Australia. All the current "season articles" are really based around southern and eastern Australia? Aoziwe (talk) 11:33, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Well, as per the advice given above, let's use wikiprocedure to find a solution amenable to all. I'm kind of puzzled as to how we can reliably say when the season is over. The way some are talking, it's ongoing as long as there are fires burning. What if they keep on burning here and there around Australia until, say, October? And what sort of source do we take as authoritative? The Moonee Ponds Star, a consensus of Wikipedians, the Bureau of Meteorology?

HiLo, in rejecting the precedent of the past ten years of these articles, where we have used the definition of bushfire seasons provided by the Bureau, says "My argument is simply that we could do it better." Perhaps he could put in his precise and better methodology as an option, so we are all clear as to the improvements over what we have done previously? I think it important that if there are ways of improving our performance, we examine them. Having people edit-war and abuse each other here is terrible behaviour in what WIRED recently called "The Last Best Place on the Internet". We can do better. --Pete (talk) 21:38, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Speaking of ignoring, despite your typically false and inflammatory accusations, I have used many words in many places in these discussions to say what I think should be done, and why. There is no need for an RfC. It's not that big an issue. There is simply a need to recognise that we can always move on and do things better than we have in the past. I will one point you have raised more recently in your constantly changing position here. The BOM does not define fire seasons. It is done by state governments, local government, and regional fire authorities, and they set many different periods throughout the country. No central source can give us the answer you claim already exists. We must also always avoid looking at this from a particular local perspective. We must look at the whole country, something that can be difficult if one only looks at material from one's home city. HiLo48 (talk) 22:07, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

The Bureau of Meteorology is a federal government agency, so it covers the whole country, and when you followed the link given above you saw that it has different seasons for different regions, as per the map. I think it's pretty authoritative, as have editors for the past ten years, but you have a better idea, as you insist above, so please present it, and we can look at it in a polite and practical fashion. --Pete (talk) 22:23, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

I have presented my ideas multiple times in these discussions. You acting as if I haven't is purely confrontational behaviour, and leads me to return to one of my favourite Wikipedia essays for guidance. HiLo48 (talk) 23:24, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

At the moment we're looking at assembling a list of RfC options, as per above. You can have input or not. If you DGAF, that's fine, we'll work through it without your "better option". You have been invited to participate, but if you choose not to, that's entirely your decision, and I'll respect it. Thanks for letting us know. --Pete (talk) 06:06, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

"we're", we'll, "us"? It is only you. You don't speak for the rest of us, nor do I speak for anyone else. Why ignore what the fire agencies use and only focus on the BoM (who only provide forecasts, not the FDP)? Fire seasons do not follow days, weeks or months and every season is different. Bidgee (talk) 06:35, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a coöperative venture. There is definitely a feeling of "us" in this grand achievement. I like to think that we sacrifice ego at the altar of wisdom here. Aoziwe's suggestions above are a good start, and RfCs are part of the lubricant we apply to reduce the inevitable social friction. We're all in this together, we follow the procedures, and it works wonderfully well. The BoM makes the very important point that different regions have different seasons. It's not one size fits all for the whole continent. Northern Australia is driest in the winter, and they get their fires then. Bushfires are still bushfires, and I think if we are having an article that covers all of Australia, we have to cover all of Australia.

Having a season that lasts twelve months seems to be the reality, given the diversity of climate and terrain. Perhaps we could usefully call it a "year" rather than a season, just as we have a financial year that doesn't match up with the calendar year. As HiLo says, we can always do better. The beauty of an RfC is that everybody gets a chance to comment and we get eyes from outside, who might find different - and better - ways of dealing with the problem.

That's how Wikipedia improves year after year, bit by bit. It's not a top-down thing, it's we editors working out amongst ourselves how to do the job better, how to present information in a more accessible fashion, how to work together. --Pete (talk) 08:58, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed)I have requested an Admin to review this comment. Bidgee (talk) 13:29, 6 March 2020 (UTC)That admin reckoned it was an okay thing and that I should lose a comment as well. Fair enough. --Pete (talk) 04:06, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Please stop using "we" and "us" in your comments, you don't speak for me or anyone else. Correct, Australia is a complex country and that is why fire agencies have different times when FDP start and end, these are sometimes the same season after season but sometimes differing. Fires in Northern Australia do not alway start at the same time (month) every year, it all depends on the Monsoon. Bidgee (talk) 09:48, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

I speak as one of the Wikipedia community, to which we all belong. We are all bound by WP:NOR, for example. The way I see it is that there are two schools of thought:

1. The fire season begins with the first fire of the season and ends with the last. There could be long and short fire seasons, for example. A hot, dry period - say, a drought - might have a longer season than a time with lots of rain.

2. The fire season begins and ends on set dates, as per the BoM, the model used here for the past ten years. If you think about it, this is actually the correct way to determine the seasons, because otherwise how do we determine whether a given fire belongs in (say) the 2018/19 season or the 2019/20 season? We cannot guess; we must use sources.

We - those working on this article - must choose a method and stick by it. Edit-warring and hurling abuse at one another in an effort to mould the article to an ego-centric form is a terrible way to operate. An RfC will allow proponents of various models to discuss the issues in a controlled environment which we have often used before, and it will yield a result which we can all follow. I presume you agree with me on this, that co-operation and civility beat conflict and personal attacks? It seems to be the method supported by the WikiPowers That Be, at any rate, regardless of one's personal life and preferences. --Pete (talk) 12:51, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

"We(????!!!!)... must choose a method and stick by it." That's hilarious. By my reckoning, over the past few days YOU(!!!!!!), not we or us, have taken on three mutually exclusive positions, and been quite adamant about each one at the time, being somewhat rude to those with different views. Now you seem to have gone all wishy washy, and want an RfC to decide what your position might be in a few days time. I am certain that if you hadn't been here, the rest of us would have peacefully settled on a way of writing the final date for this year's season at this point in time (which is all that this began as) in a congenial and cooperative way. It is still only YOU who is asking for an RfC. You have no support for that proposal from anyone else involved in this discussion. Could we (and I suspect I'm right in saying "we") perhaps ask you to please step back for a few days and let everyone else work this out in a peaceful and stable environment? If you find the result so appalling, then you can the issue further. HiLo48 (talk) 21:51, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

I can't say that the end date of bushfire seasons has been something that engaged my attention until recently. I just assumed that some happy public official somewhere was in charge of that duty and got paid for it and people like Wikipedia editors took their word for it.

It was only when I spotted reversions being made here - by you and another editor, HiLo, so please don't accuse me of stirring up trouble - that I looked into it. My comments and edit summaries reflect my developing knowledge and scholarship, but I am now persuaded after checking the history of previous season versions of this article that the long-established consensus was to use the Bureau of Meteorology bushfire season(s), as applying to all of Australia's regions, and to use that end date well ahead of time. Like up to nine months in advance. There was none of this uncertainty and edit-warring over something so trivial.

If anybody has a better methodology than that which has worked just fine over the past decade, then please outine it. I'm not wedded to any particular view, but if something works and is useful and doesn't get editors all steamy under their editing sweats, then it has my vote.

An RfC is an accepted method of improving Wikipedia in a controlled fashion, and has the advantage of getting more eyes on the topic.--Pete (talk) 22:20, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Have an Rfc to resolve the stalemate. GoodDay (talk) 00:57, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

One person disagreeing and arguing with everyone else, and demanding an RfC, is not a stalemate. I can think of several other terms, but will choose not to write them here. HiLo48 (talk) 01:47, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Maybe one should work towards a topic ban for said person. ♆ CUSH ♆ 09:00, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

I would support such a proposal, but I'm not leading it. HiLo48 (talk) 11:16, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Page break - sources

Right - just list sources below. Consider section above closed. And move forward. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:24, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Forum shopping by Pete/Skyring

Up above I let editors know that our esteemed colleague reported one of the editors here to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. (It didn't go far.) He has now begun a thread at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Administrators and civility related to this discussion. It's a huge slab of text, so you may not want to read it all, but I feel it's good if everyone knows about all the games Pete/Skyring is playing, and the all the resources of Wikipedia he is chewing up on this one issue. HiLo48 (talk) 03:08, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Remove mention of "black summer"

As the specific paragraph in the Other names sub-section says "The term black summer was used twice..." That's twice! I suspect "These effing fires" was used more often, and we won't mention that. We really shouldn't be explicitly mentioning "black summer". HiLo48 (talk) 06:43, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

I've fixed that. A quick Google search reveals multiple uses of the phrase. A SMH feature, for example. SBS report on the investigation. Given that the term was used to announce the Royal Commission into the Black Summer Bushfires, I suggest that it will be commonly used in reference to that commission, which is set to be a major and continuing news story in the coming year. --Pete (talk) 08:53, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

For the information of other editors, Pete/Skyring and I once had an interaction ban in place between us. Pete still frequently seems to turn up wherever I am editing, almost exclusively with a view opposite to mine. Seconds after I wrote the comment at the beginning of this thread, Pete changed the article from saying "used twice" to saying "often used". He did this without any change to the sources (which only support the claim of "twice") and with no Edit summary. His comment above came AFTER his change to the article. The rest of you can argue over this, and judge Pete's behaviour. I'm withdrawing from this idiotic situation, and in the face of such confrontational behaviour. HiLo48 (talk) 09:13, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

See above. We have a treasure of excellent references for the term. It is in common use now. Here's something from the Red Cross, as a good source looking back at the bushfire season - which they say has ended, I note. Nothing personal, HiLo. This popped up on my watchlist, and I looked into the reality. We would like to have the occasional brush with the real world here, I trust? --Pete (talk) 09:18, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Drafting an RfC on bushfire season end

I won't kick off an RfC until we have a bit of discussion. Previously there's been some comment that I might have slanted the options a bit. To which I say, well spotted!

Aoziwe has listed four possibilities in discussion above:

1. Leave as ongoing until time has run its course and come June see what is available in sources, ie no crystal balling
2. Model on what has been done before as a currnt concensus / precedent
3. Go to some actual sources, eg, a typical example of bush fire frequency - see figure 5: https://www.bushfirecrc.com/sites/default/files/managed/resource/posterprogc-bryant.pdf - seems to indicate why the colloquial season should range from June to May? ie, the minimum is at the end of May / start of June? Not sure if this helps - needs aggregation across states: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4785963/
4. define separately for southern and eastern Australia versus central Australia versus northern and tropical Australia

Option 1 has the problem already identified, namely that if there are no more fires, then it can hardly be said to be ongoing, unless we take the position - "come June" - that the season is over and we can go back and find when the last fire went out. But, it might have been months before that date, so why wait until June and show the season as still ongoing when nothing is actually burning. Besides, if I know my Wikipedians, it would be listed as "ongoing" forever because everyone has lost interest and gone off to do something more entertaining.

But this approach nicely illustrates the fundamental divide in views. Does the season start with the first bushfire of the season, and end with the last of the season? Or is there an actual season in which we have bushfires, kind of like having a wabbit season?

Option 2 is what we've always done, at least for the past ten years which is pretty much the same thing around here. This has always been uncontroversial, and we nominate the end of the season months in advance, regardless of whether any fires are active. The Bureau of Meteorology lists June to May as the season, or at least winter to autumn, which is the same thing.

Option 3 is the same thing from a different approach. Perhaps we could work on the details?

Option 4 is kind of tricky. This article covers all of Australia, but the BoM points out that various regions have different seasons. Maybe we could change the name of the article to 2019-20 bushfire seasons? Maybe we could have subsections for various regions? Could end up kind of fiddly, but hey, this is Wikipedia; there are plenty of people who like subdividing the entirety of human knowledge down into atomic particles with subheadings.

Option 5 Someone - I forget who - suggested that there was a better way, without giving any details. Here's your chance.

Next step is to phrase the options into neutral terms, as opposed to my usual tactic of helpfully pointing out which one is best and people should vote for the one I've bolded and put into big print.

One problem I've encountered before is that when I set out a draft RfC, people come in from all directions and start voting, and once they do that there's no point moaning "Lay off! We haven't started yet!". The orse as boltered. --Pete (talk) 04:06, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

I propose that everyone boycott Pete's RfC discussions because I expect them to be a total waste of time, create unhelpful confrontations, have policy hurled around as weaponry, thereby damaging Wikipedia, and overall have no guarantee of achieving anything. Nobody but Pete wants one. HiLo48 (talk) 04:11, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Cas Liber suggested we try dispute resolution. GoodDay has added his support for an RfC, which is an accepted DR mechanism. Aoziwe has provided a starting list of options. You may participate in dispute resolution or not, that's totally fine. I would, however, appreciate your input. And anyone else's. --Pete (talk) 04:53, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

You have my input, many times above on this page. It would have been ample comment had you not been so confrontational and difficult throughout this process. Unlike you, I haven't totally changed my position three times over about that many days. I don't like being forced to continually repeat myself because of your filibustering. Why should I have to? HiLo48 (talk) 05:00, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

I suggested it (an Rfc), so go ahead. GoodDay (talk) 02:26, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Why? Wouldn't it be more productive to do something about the single editor who is asking for an RfC, and whose obfuscations and multiple changes of opinion have effectively killed conversation here? AN RfC won't unearth any new opinions. HiLo48 (talk) 02:38, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

It's up to Skyring/Pete, whether he does or not. GoodDay (talk) 02:43, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Entirely? Is there no way at all to stop it? HiLo48 (talk) 02:56, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Well, anyone can post an RfC - what happens next requires consensus..Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:40, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

You suggested dispute resolution after one of the two people supporting "ongoing" edit-warred to keep their wording. I think an RfC is the best way forward, and to get more eyes on the subject. We can then all agree to abide by the outcome. Problem solved, everyone happy. If you are volunteering to supervise, that would be great. Discussion on options seems to have slowed, so I'll take what we have and work on wording. --Pete (talk) 00:30, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

There has still been no support whatsoever for an RfC from any one else previously involved in these discussions. Your obfuscation and forum shopping has probably exhausted some of them. (Evidenced yourself when you say "Discussion on options seems to have slowed...") You are unlikely to get responses from a lot of serious contributors from up above. That would not be a good thing. An RfC now is a bad idea, and not a good faith one. I would still recommend a boycott if one goes ahead. HiLo48 (talk) 03:11, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

HiLo, we seem to rub each other the wrong way. If we talk about the problem it's just going to go round in circles. I've asked multiple times for you to give details of "the better way of doing it" that you hint at, but instead you berate me, and no progress is made. I'd prefer that we resolve the dispute without too much yelling, and an RfC is a good way to do it in a civil and controlled fashion. --Pete (talk) 10:31, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

"I've asked multiple times for you to give details of the better way of doing it..." I have, multiple times above, not in response to one of your requests, but right from the very start, before your multiple changes of mind on what should be in the field in question. Don't try deflect and suggest that I am the problem here. I have made my position and reasoning clear to all (except apparently, one person, you). I don't want to be forced to do it again. HiLo48 (talk) 11:10, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

If anybody has this information, or a diff, please let me know. Otherwise I'll assume that it is to list the end of the season as "ongoing" until we reach the end of the season on 31 May, and then we'll say it was May. I'm not seeing how this is a better methodology than what we've always used before, which is to give the season end date ahead of time. --Pete (talk) 17:56, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

To whom it may concern, may I offer some unsolicited advice?

In my opinion how the "end of the season" is defined is really NOT that important. I see an RFC to define it as a complete waist of time. There will be NO or at most one or two IRS over the next few months explicitly stating that "it", whatever it was, is over. In the scheme of things the end date of the season is of no consequence. (If we have an RfC to decide if we have an RfC I think the answer would be NO.)

We all presumably want to contribute to wikipedia, that is why we are here. Hours and countless words have gone into the above already, resulting in a total lock to the article, stopping EVERYONE from editing it. How counter productive that was!

If editors have that much free time on their hands, please use it constructively, for example, by tabulating the thousands, possibly tens of thousands of high quality reliable sources and indexing them for which fires, incidents, towns and villages, ecological impacts, etc. they refer to so that we can all use that as a resource to properly create in-depth articles on the many outcomes of this fire season, which, overall, is arguably the worst ever to affect Australia. It is this that people will come to Wikipedia for, not to find out whether the season finished in April or May.

Regards to all. Aoziwe (talk) 09:12, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. This is an article about a season. I think it is pertinent to the article that we be clear about what is meant by that. I think that one of the questions readers will come here to have answered is "what is the Australian bushfire season and how long will it go for?" If they cannot find basic information about the season itself, surely we have failed?

In this article, neither the infobox not the first six paragraphs of the lede provide an answer. The infobox says it is ongoing, yet para five says all the fires in New South Wales and Victoria are out. Is the season over? No, we say it is "ongoing". There must be fires burning elsewhere in Australia. But no, we do not refer to any other bushfire in our article. The latest is the ACT's Orroral Valley fire, which we state was fully extinguished in February.

In fact, nowhere in this article about a bushfire season is there any guidance as to how long the bushfire season lasts, or when it ends. The only clue is a reference to another article which inter alia states: Bushfire seasons are commonly grouped into years such as "2019–2020 Australian bushfire season" and typically apply to the season for southern and eastern Australia; from 1 June to 31 May annually. The government source is given as an external link.

Seems to me that the answer is right there, but we tell it to our readers - with specific mention to this bushfire season - in a different article. How opaque can we possibly make it?

I had thought that an appeal to reason and the fact that for the past ten years straight we have used an official government source to state several months ahead of time that the season ends in May would be sufficient. Surely if we say that the season ends in May, and if that month has not yet arrived, then it is obvious to all that it is ongoing? The basic competence to have a grasp of how the months of the year are arranged is something I had imagined we might safely assume of our readers.

I really think we should clear up this existential point, rather than leave it as a mystery for our perplexed readers. --Pete (talk) 10:31, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

WP:TLDR HiLo48 (talk) 11:13, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

I fail to see how any "existential point" is touched in any of this. Just stop trying to WP:OWN this aspect of the article, or introduce WP:OR or WP:SYNTH. If you have a government source, that is fine. Whether or not the dates given there coincide with actual fires is irrelevant. Maybe the potential for fire is more relevant than actual fires, as the government has to have firefighting measures in place during that time regardless of whether anything is really burning. The government source should mention this, and if it does not, it is still ok for WP. ♆ CUSH ♆ 12:06, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm entirely of your way of thinking, Cush! in the past we've always used the government source for the end date, and the last time I touched this article was to insert that date. --Pete (talk) 17:56, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

...without consensus to do so. HiLo48 (talk) 21:40, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

A ten year consensus is pretty much solid gold around here, HiLo. I think the proper question to ask is who went against consensus with this article? --Pete (talk) 00:08, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

You changed the end from ongoing to May 2020. It seems to me that you made the determination about the end date yourself, although it is clearly for the Australian government to make such an announcement at the proper time. In Wikipedia pages, editors do not introduce their own findings or determinations or interpretations into articles. Information is solely based on reliable sources. Until such a source becomes available at the end of the current bushfire season, the only accurate description for said season is ongoing'. ♆ CUSH ♆ 22:04, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Cush, as I've noted several times in the past week, our source for May is the Australian Bureau of Meteorology. It's the same source we've used for the past ten years in this series of annual articles - eg. here - with zero problems. --Pete (talk) 00:08, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

You have adamantly pushed at least two other positions in the past week. Doesn't that indicate at least some sort of problem? HiLo48 (talk) 01:08, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Looking like a personal attack there, HiLo! I've moved on, done my research, found the longstanding consensus to use an official source. Like, all I did was click on the "preceding season" link to see what we did last year. And the year before. And the year before that for ten years… --Pete (talk) 04:53, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

No personal attack there at all. Simply the truth. Stop looking for ways to attack me! HiLo48 (talk) 05:37, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Something might be the truth, but it might also be a personal attack to say it. You might consider the BLP rules as a guide for dealing with other editors. And in fact we have actual rules for dealing with other editors. Civility, for a start. HiLo, I'd much rather we got on in a polite fashion, at least in the wikiworkspace. Who knows, if we are nice to each other on the surface, it might work its way down deeper. --Pete (talk) 13:16, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

When you post something on this page to gain my respect, I shall loudly proclaim it. Your efforts in the past couple of weeks on this page and the other places you have taken issues form here to have achieved nothing positive for the encyclopaedia. HiLo48 (talk) 22:34, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

The source does not mention May, and citing Wikipedia articles for previous years is of no use. Wikipedia cannot be used as a source for any article. ♆ CUSH ♆ 09:53, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

The source says "Southeast Australia—summer and autumn". Autumn ends in May. It's also the time of overall bushfire minimum as per Option 3 above. No, we're not using previous articles as a source, but as a template for the series of articles. This is standard wikipractice, where if we have annual football seasons, we use the same basic format year after year. --Pete (talk) 13:16, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

There's a Total Fire Ban in Victoria's Northern Region today. At least three bushfires are currently burning. HiLo48 (talk) 03:32, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

RfC on bushfire seasons

There is an RfC on whether future Australian bushfire season article template start and end dates should use the official season or the beginning and end of significant fires. Please comment here --Pete (talk) 03:12, 28 March 2020 (UTC)