Talk:Genetic studies of Jews

POV tag

I have added a POV tag to this article, having reread it recently on the back of the recent discussions at Zionism, race and genetics. The lede here is heavily unbalanced towards the "modern Jews are the primary descendants of the Israelites" theory and does not appropriately reflect the weight of sources in the article.

The article would also benefit from a health warning along the lines of the conclusion of Steven Weitzman in his work The Origin of the Jews: The Quest for Roots in a Rootless Age:

What made the question of Jewish origin such an insistent one for many of the scholars we have looked at was its perceived implications for their own identities as Europeans, Christians, Jews, cosmopolitans, Israelis, or Palestinians. These scholars believed that their answers to the question of Jewish origin addressed pressing questions of their times: Is it best to try to integrate Jews into Europe or to exclude them? How to resolve competing claims of indigenousness among Israelis and Palestinians? Present-day research is no different in this regard. Always there seems to be something beyond historical curiosity that motivates the scholarship: insecurity about the ambiguities of one’s identity, the trauma of having been uprooted, a need to recover something that feels like it has been lost, a fear of being dislodged from one’s place by another people, or profound discontent with some other origin account and what it implies about the present. It is to these kinds of considerations—the psychological, sociological, and political motives for scholarship—that we must look if we are to understand what makes the lost origin of the Jews appear as a relevant absence to scholars, why they see a mystery worth solving… The inconvenient truth, however, is that there is no way for scholarship to close the gap. Scholarship has done a good job coming up with new evidence, and it is quite expert at debunking existing origin accounts for the Jews, but it has failed to generate an alternative narrative that can do the kind of work the Book of Genesis does in helping people to comprehend themselves and their places in the world. What we have seen suggests that leaning on scholarship to play the role of creation myth leads to claims that are tendentious at best, and sometimes quite destructive. This is the only honest way I can describe where the scholarly search for the origin of the Jews has led after so many centuries of effort, and yet I do not think it suffices to leave a hole at the beginning of Jewish history.

Onceinawhile (talk) 22:46, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

It seems it may be a bit undue to give the opinion of a non-geneticist that kind of weight in an article such as this (that focuses on genetic studies).Skllagyook (talk) 00:24, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Onceinawhile, could you identify a few bits of content that would need to be added/changed/removed in order to comply with NPOV? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:02, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi FFF, the entirety of paragraphs 2 and 3 of the lede have a very clear, and very unbalanced, POV:

Studies of autosomal DNA, which look at the entire DNA mixture, show that Jewish populations have tended to form relatively closely related groups in independent communities with most in a community sharing significant ancestry. For populations of the Jewish diaspora, the genetic composition of Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrahi Jewish populations shows significant amounts of shared Middle Eastern ancestry. According to geneticist Doron Behar and colleagues (2010), this is "consistent with a historical formulation of the Jewish people as descending from ancient Hebrew and Israelites of the Levant" and "the dispersion of the people of ancient Israel throughout the Old World". Several Jewish groups also show genetic proximity to Lebanese, Palestinians, Bedouins, and Druze in addition to Southern European populations, including Cypriots and Italians.
Jews living in the North African, Italian, and Iberian regions show variable frequencies of admixture with the historical non-Jewish population along the maternal lines. In the case of Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews (in particular Moroccan Jews), who are closely related, the source of non-Jewish admixture is mainly southern European. Behar and colleagues have remarked on an especially close relationship between Ashkenazi Jews and modern Italians. Some studies show that the Bene Israeland Cochin Jews of India, and the Beta Israel of Ethiopia, while very closely resembling the local populations of their native countries, may have some ancient Jewish descent.

It is written from the point of view of those scholars who have argued for global Jewish unity.

Weitzman's point in my post above above is widely echoed. See for example Robert Pollack:

From any one person to another unrelated person, about one letter in a thousand, more or less, will be different when their three billion-letter DNAs are compared. There is no biological data in support of the notion of being a Jew solely through the inheritance of a single specific DNA sequence, nor will there ever be such evidence. There is no chance of some human genomes being Jewish and others not; biology makes all people truly equal.

Onceinawhile (talk) 05:59, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

The choice of quotes (the only two) in the lead is perhaps the strongest indication of the rather editorialized direction of travel that the summary currently takes. It also notably omits any controversies, including the ongoing academic "Khazar" furore - "Khazar" is mentioned 31 times on the page, but nowhere in the lead as a notable controversy, despite it being perhaps the single-most notable controversy in this subject area. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:26, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

User:Onceinawhile The idea of many groups of Jews sharing a significant partial common ancestry tracing to a certain region of the Near East is not the same as the claim that there are genes that are uniquely/exclusively or diagnostically Jewish. The latter claim, as far as I can tell, is not made in the lede (or elsewhere). It is possible both for Jewish groups to share a significant amount of a certain type of ancestry (along with various non-shared components/mixtures) and for non-Jewish groups with origins in the same region (e.g. non-Jewish groups from the Middle East - the Levant, Mesopotamia, etc.) to possess that type of (and/or) ancestry as well - likely sometimes to a greater extent than many Jews. Nor does the text argue that one is a Jew solely through biology, but rather that there is evidence that many historically Jewish groups tend to have certain ancestral origins/makeup. Skllagyook (talk) 07:06, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, this is the type of summary that should be in the lede. Not just the one perspective dominating it at the moment. Onceinawhile (talk) 07:49, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Nothing I said is contradicted by the lede. The lede also mentions non-Jewish groups that share affinities with many Jewish ones because of (partial) shared geographical origins - e.g. Lebanese, Palestinians, and Druze in the Near East - and European and other non-Near Eastern groups that may share some ancestry and/or affinities with various Jewish groups because of admixture. Skllagyook (talk) 07:56, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

The lede is very clearly giving undue prominence to one theory. Literally two thirds of it are following the interpretation of Behar. Why should an article with 145 citations have a lede focused on just one? This topic is widely debated; we should explain all sides. Onceinawhile (talk) 08:21, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

The real problem is that a large number of genetic papers are cited by summaries from the primary sources. There is now a significant body of secondary literature which cites these primary sources, and it is the secondary sources that should be prioritized, i.e. how they summarize and contextualize each paper. That is the real issue. Cherrypicking based on primary sources. A proper use of these secondary sources is not going to substantially change or overturn the general drift of the page for the Middle East connection. The overall conclusion of genetics affirms quite consistently that this is the case. The point is rather that we select from genetic papers designed to excavate the 'vertical' line, as opposed to the horizonal line, or to use an analogy, the modelling assumes tree-like descent as opposed to 'trellis' approaches, so that 'isolate' continuities are emphasized over admixture. Nishidani (talk) 08:46, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Regarding the health warning, we need to address the point that the most presitigous scholars in the field state that it is not possible to prove via genetics either Jewish origins or that there is a “Jewish gene”. We also need to set out the explanation for the incorrect implication that an element of Middle Eastern genetics necessarily suggests Israelite origins. I propose language along the following lines (following the sources in this article and a number of others):

Whether such genetic connections support the claims of some Jews to be descended from ancient Israelites is unknowable, and thus widely debated. Jewish religious communities were known in Europe, North Africa and the Middle East for the last two millennia, and over the centuries these communities are known to have both mixed with the surrounding non-Jewish populations through conversion and intermarriage, and mixed with each of the other Jewish communities from other geographies. This mixing is what geneticists term “horizontal admixture”, and its being carried out amongst the global Jewish communities ensured that an element of Middle Eastern genetics are present in most Jewish communities worldwide. Descent from ancient peoples such as Israelites is what genetics term “vertical phylogenesis”; genetic science cannot today, and is thought unlikely to ever be able to, differentiate between horizontal admixture and vertical phylogenesis.

Onceinawhile (talk) 02:25, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

The assertion that Jews are descended from the ancient Israelites is not "widely debated", at least not among mainstream scholars. The article's lede says that the genetic makeup of major Jewish groups shows significant amounts of shared Middle Eastern ancestry, which has been understood as *potentially* originating from the Israelites and other ancient Near Eastern populations. Simultaneously, the lede already emphasizes that Jews of various backgrounds show variable frequencies of admixture with the historical non-Jewish population. This presentation maintains a balanced approach in accordance with prevailing mainstream perspectives on Jewish genetics. What this article's lede could benefit from is a brief description of the present comprehension of Jewish Y-DNA genetics, distinct from the coverage of autosomal and maternal DNA which is already provided. I'm also open to including the aspect that genetics cannot definitively prove the existence of a singular "Jewish gene." Tombah (talk) 05:54, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

No, a direct assertion is not widely asserted, because a direct assertion is not made. The assertion mentioned by Once is the assertion that genetic evidence can support claims of Israelite descent, when descent is an unprovable unknown. The religious and cultural claims of descent, as well as the obvious scholarly consensus that Judaism is derived as a cultural body from Israelite religion, both need to be carefully distinguished from the findings of population genetics, the only scholarly consensus for which is that leaps of the imagination from it should not be made. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:55, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

@Tombah: This revert is not well thought out with respect to policy. Please explain your understanding of due here. This quote is sourced to the originating text, not secondary coverage of it. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:33, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't think the lead section should be quoting from one source. It should be paraphrasing what the broad consensus is rather than quoting. I think the consensus does support, as a summary, the description of genetic studies of the major Jewish groups as being consistent with the Jewish people descending from ancient Hebrew and Israelites of the Levant (as well as there being other admixture, as Tombah describes). Where I think the wording is problematic is in implying that the Jewish people are the only group descending from ancient Hebrew and Israelites of the Levant and sidelining the evidence around, say, the Palestinians and Druze. Bondegezou (talk) 09:29, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

As far as I can see, the only source stating these things in these terms is Doron Behar, who also has a business interest in personal DNA testing - a commercial edifice that has been erected upon the practice of making sweeping generalizations about populations based on a handful of markers. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:38, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I.e. "Competing Interests: Part of the lab work presented in this study was conducted in Gene by Gene (Family Tree DNA) in which Doron M. Behar, Elliott Greenspan and Concetta Bormans declare stock ownership and Luisa Fernanda Sanchez is an employee. The other authors claim no competing financial interests associated with this paper. (the requisite declaration in Nature) Iskandar323 (talk) 09:41, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, when you say these things, which particular things? I'm lost where you are in the discussion. Thanks. Bondegezou (talk) 10:41, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Most of the specifics that you suggest in the summary. In fact, not even Behar goes this far in the topline summary of the source that is quoted. The abstract states: "These results cast light on the variegated genetic architecture of the Middle East, and trace the origins of most Jewish Diaspora communities to the Levant." So the key terms in that statement are most, meaning not all and we really cannot generalize, and Levant region (which is a broad region, not a specific ancient population group). The lead should not go beyond what the most optimistic sources claim in their summaries. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:57, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

The Geography of Jewish Ethnogenesis (from the Further reading)

"The idea that contemporary Jews descend from the Israelite tribes of antiquity who fled or were deported as slaves by the Romans from Judaea following the destruction of the Second Temple (70 ce), as well as by the Assyrian and Babylonian militaries in the eighth and sixth centuries bce, is a basic assumption built into nearly all published works on the subject".

"Yet, none of these studies have successfully offered a specific geographic locus for Jewish origins. A concerted review of the entire body of Jewish population genetics literature, in tandem with associable textual sources, reveals not a body of genetically related people with common primary ancestry in the Levant followed by European admixture but rather a mosaic of people of multiple and geographically diverse origins, such as can only be explained by significant conversion over time. We therefore

propose a process of Jewish ethnogenesis shaped by the social and socioeconomic currents of early and Medieval Eurasia and contributions from a mosaic of circumMediterranean and Black Sea communities, not one arising simply from an exiled Levantine population." Selfstudier (talk) 12:42, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

That paper was discussed some time ago (I was involved and will try to find the discussion). In brief, my argument, and that often least one other user, was that it comes to conclusions that are strongly at odds with the conclusions of the majority of geneticists that have published on the topic (aspects of extraordinary claims seemed to apply), does not represent the consensus of specialists in the field and thus it's treatment as such would likely be WP:UNDUE. The majority of genetics studies have concluded that most Jewish groups (of the Sephardi, Ashkenazi, and Mizrahi) have a significant component of shared Middle Eastern ancestry likely derived from the Levant along with significant amounts of other admixtures. Nonetheless, one aspect that is not at odds with most research, is that Jewish populations have diverse admixtures and are not of solely a single origin (an aspect that is already included in the lede and elsewhere in the article).

I also don't oppose including, as mentioned, the aspect that genetics cannot definitively prove the existence of a singular "Jewish gene." I am also open to, as User:Bondegezou recommends, changing any problematic wording implying that the Jewish people are the only group descending from ancient Hebrew and Israelites of the Levant and sidelining the Palestinians, Druze Samaritans, etc. Whether the lede should attribute the statement to Behar that that evidence supports a derivation from the Hebrews and Israelites specifically (as opposed to Levantine populations in general) I am uncertain, and would depend, at least in part, on the content of the source and whether he comes to such a conclusion (I will try to find the full version). Skllagyook (talk) 13:20, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

@Skllagyook: thanks for this constructive comment. One point to be careful of is how we use the word admixtures. Since geneticists are unable to differentiate between vertical phylogenesis and horizontal admixture, we should not use language that implies that research has concluded which is which. Onceinawhile (talk) 13:39, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

There is one discussion in Archive 8 with editor Nishidani commenting "... is 'an extremely high quality secondary source'. Unless my ageing memory is a fault, its use on wikipedia was subject to persistent hostile dismissal by POV-pushing editors who disliked its conclusions, and tried to demonstrate that it failed our criteria for inclusion. As a result, through sheer weight of numbers, it was 'disappeared'." Selfstudier (talk) 14:00, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Editor Iskandar points to this discussion, perhaps that is the one to which you refer?Selfstudier (talk) 14:13, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. That is it. I'm afraid I don't think the characterization you quoted (of the objections) seems fair nor really acknowledges the issues raised. Many aspects of the source, as mentioned, are strongly at odds with what most genetic research concludes. It is not, as of now disappeared, and is currently included in further reading (which I do not object to). I think, at the very least, it is a minority opinion and should not be represented as consensus. Skllagyook (talk) 14:21, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Iskandar323, for that follow-up. I have no objections to those caveats. I agree we should move away from the Behar quotation and can move to more caveated language. Bondegezou (talk) 14:42, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Iskandar323 and Bondegezou, having looked at the full version (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/44657170_The_genome-wide_structure_of_the_Jewish_people), it does indeed mention ancestry from the Levant rather than from Israelites and Hebrews specifically. Thus I would support changing the opinion attributed to Behar in the lede to reflect that. Skllagyook (talk) 14:55, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Does Behar really belong in the lede at all? Onceinawhile (talk) 15:28, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I would argue that he does. He's one of the most prominent scholars in the field and is highly cited. Skllagyook (talk) 15:33, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Please provide proof of this claim. Elhaik is widely cited too.

Note the Behar version of the lede was added without discussion here.

Onceinawhile (talk) 15:53, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Weitzman draws the same conclusion Drsmoo (talk) 18:08, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Where does Weitzman do what now? He finds all of the proposed theories wanting, either because of the insufficiency of data or, more commonly, because of methodological imprecision. Many of the proposed explanations tell us more about the beliefs and perspectives of the storytellers than about the alleged origins of the Jews... . Genetic science has not yet given us a firm basis on which to build our notions of Jewish origins. [1] Iskandar323 (talk) 19:38, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

From the book being reviewed:

”That is what much of recent genetic research has been suggesting about the Jews: that there is a correspondence between what they believe about the origin of their ancestors and the genetic ancestry regis- tered in their DNA, that they have an ancestry distinct from that of the non-Jews among whom they live, and that some of those ances- tors came from the Near East.” Drsmoo (talk) 19:56, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

The ancestors in the Near East point is misleading without this context (Falk):

As research progresses, it demonstrates that relationships between members of Jewish communities and their connections with the non-Jews among whom they lived were always a complex two-way (horizontal) exchange, rather than an ordered sequence of (vertically) splitting branches from a common root. It was rather the social and cultural relationships between Jewish communities and ethnic groups that shaped the gene pool(s) of the Jews of today. Since Jews were a separate socio-cultural entity, biological-genetic relationships were established between the isolates, irrespective of possible common biological roots.

In other words, Jewish religious communities were known in Europe, North Africa and the Near East for the last two millennia, and over the centuries these communities are known to have both mixed with the surrounding non-Jewish populations through conversion and intermarriage, and mixed with each of the other Jewish communities from other geographies. This mixing amongst the global Jewish communities ensured that an element of Near Eastern genetics is present in most Jewish communities worldwide, even if there was not one Ancient Israelite as part of the mix. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:06, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

That source is from 2006. Predating much of the most significant research, which has been published well after that. Drsmoo (talk) 20:21, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

No, it is from 2017, page 198 of Falk's Zionism and the Biology of Jews. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:30, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Nope, it’s from 2006. https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-319-57345-8 “ This volume is a revised and edited English version of Tzionut Vehabiologia shel Hayehudim, published in 2006.” Drsmoo (talk) 23:54, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Revised means altered, corrected and in publishing terms, brought up to date. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:36, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Exactly. Drsmoo, please could you confirm that you have read Falk's book? It is core to the conversation we have been having for many weeks now. On reading it you will see that it refers throughout to all the major research which took place between 2006-17. Onceinawhile (talk) 11:04, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough, the book does seem to have been significantly updated. Drsmoo (talk) 12:30, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

That is a situation being described. He is saying that the research suggests X; this is not the same as Weitzman agreeing with the suggestion, or implying that it is a correctly concluded one. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:34, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Weitzman book is usually careful not to "answer the questions" instead giving more of a critical overview of the position in different areas of enquiry. Selfstudier (talk) 18:25, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Horizontal and Vertical models of Jewish Middle Eastern genetics

@Skllagyook: regarding the re-addition of Behar's quote to the lede, please see the diagram on the right, which is a visualization of what Falk explains in his book (see quote above). Falk is basically saying that Behar is only giving one side of the story, and modern genetics cannot tell with any certainty between the horizontal and vertical models. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:42, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile: I see your point. (It is somewhat less clear though why you also removed Ostrer Atzmon, and the others.) However, in both models (horizontal and vertical), the Jewish groups in question would descend (in significant part) from Levantine and Babylonian peoples (as well as from local host populations) and that is the part included from Behar. Perhaps, it would be better of Behar were not mentioned by name there if that seems undue (since several other researchers/studies have come to similar conclusions) and the opinion could be attributed instead to "many" of "several" "genetic researchers" or something similar (with Behar still cited, along with other relevant sources, e.g. Ostrer), and the descent posited from Levantine peoples described as partial (and/or existing along with other ancestry). It seems that this is compatible/consistent with both the vertical and horizontal models.

The general presence of ancestry from non-Jewish host populations (seemingly somewhat more emphasized in the horizontal model) is also now given more mention in the lede, which should somewhat address any imbalance in favor of the former model. It might also be an appropriate place to add a ref from Falk. Skllagyook (talk) 00:39, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

OK that makes sense to me. Most of these points are widely accepted and don’t need named attribution, and for those that are not widely accepted, rather than naming scholars in the lede we should just describe both sides. Readers can refer to the text in the article body to understand exactly which scholars say what.

And quickly on your comment However, in both models (horizontal and vertical), the Jewish groups in question would descend (in significant part)… I agree with you except for the words “in significant part”. It is that quantification which is the heart of the scholarly dispute – everyone agrees that the geographical Jewish isolates have some “local” genes and some “MidEast / Levantine” genes, but there are widely differing views among scholars on the significance of each. Frankly, the only difference between the horizontal and vertical models is the weight of gene flow from each pathway. Onceinawhile (talk) 00:48, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

+1 We shouldn't be adding language that quantifies the unquantified. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:40, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile: Falk doesn't seem to argue that in the horizontal model the shared Middle Eastern ancestry is necessarily not significant. His argument seems to be that it is difficult to know the mode, timing, and pattern of its spread (implying perhaps the possibility of scenarios including, for instance, one in which the intermarriage over time between members of a Jewish group with initially - or at one time - little Middle Eastern ancestry and of one with more/a lot of it could lead to both groups significantly converging and eventually sharing a significant amount - or something similar - as opposed to a vertical model strictly of dispersal of unmixed people from a common source and subsequent admixture). He seems to argue that the genetic data (the same mixture/ancestral profiles) are consistent with both vertical and horizontal models (and elsewhere implies that elements of both models might have been at play to varying degrees). He says (in Falk 2014):

"With the advances in analyses of DNA sequences, allowing the identification of detailed specific sequences of individuals, indications lead to sequences of common progenitors of many Jewish communities and also to a considerable overlap with Mediterranean populations. If interpreted into vertical phylogenies these inevitably support the traditional Jewish historical lore of the contemporary Jews being the direct progeny of the historic residents of the Land of Israel. The same genetic relationships may, however, also indicate secondary horizontal associations, of intermarriages between communities of common culture, religion, or mere common domicile." The majority of genetic research though seems to favor a vertical model more so. Skllagyook (talk) 09:29, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

There are opposing points of view (to Behar, Ostrer et al). Per Weitzman "...even geneticists tend to favor certain narratives over others for reasons that have nothing to do with the science. For example, geneticists are inclined to think arborescently, to interpret the evidence inscribed into the DNA of Jewish populations as a tree that branches off in different directions from a common Middle Eastern root; but Abu El-Haj counters that the data, if read from a more neutral perspective, might more plausibly be conceived of as a bush too entangled to support any coherent narrative of origin." Selfstudier (talk) 11:11, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Exactly right. If we are to state that vertical interpretations are more common, it needs to be explained that (a) this specific judgement is nothing to do with genetic science, because as Falk says, genetic science is unable to differentiate between the two models, and (b) there are important sociological factors which impact such interpretations, such as those described at Zionism, race and genetics. Onceinawhile (talk) 13:39, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile

Glad someone else had the same idea I did. You all might want to look into Harry Ostrer's work and actually read it. In his book "Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People" the first chapter "Looking Jewish" does a deep dive into how to physically detect Judaism by the presence of genetic disorders. The entire book is also based on the bigotry of Maurice Fishberg who was a known eugenist, supported the 1924 Immigration Act which was replaced by the 1965 Immigration Act due to being grossly inhumane and completely racist, and he also supported closing the boarder to Jews fleeing the Holocaust. Fans Boas an actual anthropologist who is recognized as the Father of American Anthropology totally thrashed Maurice Fishberg and his xenophobic bigotry in publications from the period. Harry relies heavily on these racist theories which were already disproven and so I don't feel like they are a good source. Even more so since his career is overseeing a department for a school which was unaccredited during the time which he published through them only receiving it's accreditation in 2021 before losing it this year in 2023 and being put back on academic probation for the work that Harry as well as others published.

I am sure you're erase the entire talk again to hide this fact but at least @Onceinawhile will know. They seem to be legit. 2603:7000:4600:358A:2D49:618F:16D6:FE36 (talk) 23:53, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Frans Boas* typo, sorry. He had a lot to say on this topic and how wrong most this research is. 2603:7000:4600:358A:2D49:618F:16D6:FE36 (talk) 23:54, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Participants in this discussion: (Onceinawhile—Skllagyook—Firefangledfeathers—Iskandar323—Nishidani). Is there still a neutrality dispute at this article? VR _talk 07:06, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

This entirer discussion is poppycock. If you have relevant sources ther MAY be some merit for a "views" or "interpretations" section. This POV header is totallt irrelevant. Zarnivop (talk) 12:48, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Just in case it’s of any use in evaluating the seriousness and/or extent of this alleged NPOV controversy:

My political sympathies lie very much on the anti-Zionist side, and I can’t see the alleged POV issue here.

Yes, there are a few prominent academics etc whose theories diverge from the mainstream view. But it’s not the job of Wikipedia to elevate fringe views in order to “teach the controversy” — let alone insert them into the lead paragraph. Foxmilder (talk) 01:10, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Rather than adding the article-wide tag back, I have tagged a problematic sentence and copied it here for discussion:

Genetic analysis reveals a major genetic descent of Jewish groups from the [[Levant]] or [[Near East]], accompanied by [[Genetic admixture|admixture]] and [[introgression]] with non-Jewish host populations, varying among different Jewish communities.<ref name="Behar2010" /><ref name=Falk/>{{efn|This pattern is consistent with a major, but variable component of shared Near East ancestry, together with variable degrees of admixture and introgression from the corresponding host Diaspora populations.<ref name=pmid23052947/>}}

As discussed in the thread above, geneticists are clear that it is not possible to tell which is horizontal (admixture / introgression) and which is vertical (“descent”). The way this sentence is worded erases that nuance.

The wording “major genetic descent of Jewish groups… varying among different Jewish communities” is also very confusing. What are we trying to say here?

Onceinawhile (talk) 06:32, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Any ideas on how to make it better? (This may also make your point more clear. Andrew Lancaster (talk) 22:06, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

I tried a few different ways, but the best I can come up with for now is to remove it. The sources directly conflict with it - most notably the source labeled <ref name=Falk/> is entitled "Genetic markers cannot determine Jewish descent", which is precisely the opposite claim that the sentence is making.

My nagging concern is that it is likely that a meaningful number of readers come to this article trying to answer the question "Do genetic studies of Jews prove their descent from ancient Israel?". The removed sentence suggested an erroneous answer to that question; the actual answer to the question is much more involved (and much more interesting) and is currently much better covered in sections of the article Racial conceptions of Jewish identity in Zionism. Onceinawhile (talk) 17:11, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

+1 Selfstudier (talk) 17:13, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

I am confused why the POV tag was removed. Appealed my ban here but would like to point out:

"One study on the Cohanim hereditary priesthood found distinctive signs of genetic homogeneity within the group." - there is no citation and it is common knowledge that the Tribes were lost/absorbed into Judah hence the name "Jewish". How was this assumed to exist study able to differentiate and prove someone was Cohanim if no continual record of the Tribe's lineage exists?

Whose point of view is this and how was it substantiated?

Thank you for adding a line expressing that this is not connected to Judaism ie the religion. 2603:7000:4600:358A:816:23BE:6C73:B32 (talk) 10:33, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

How was the study* 2603:7000:4600:358A:816:23BE:6C73:B32 (talk) 10:34, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Please reverse mistakes introduced by Elgv18483

Elgv18483 has been disrupting various Wikipedia pages and has done so here. Please reverse what he did. As you can see at https://biologydirect.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1745-6150-5-57 Zoossmann-Diskin's 2010 study examined "Six Jewish populations: EEJ, Moroccan Jews, Iraqi Jews. Iranian Jews, Yemenite Jews and Ethiopian Jews". What Elgv18483 did was replace the word "Iraq" with "Persia" in the sentence describing populations he studied. "from Iran, Iraq and Yemen" transformed into "Iran, Persia and Yemen" even though Persia is equivalent to Iran. This is not an improvement. He also arbitrarily added Germany to the list of 6 populations studied in Rosenberg's 2001 study, making it 7, but Poland was the only country of origin in that region that they studied. Observe the countries that are and aren't listed under "MeSH terms" in https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11158561/ 172.56.28.205 (talk) 11:10, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks to User:AgisdeSparte for reverting Elgv18483's mistakes at 10:59, 31 May 2024, when I was in the midst of fixing pages about Jewish populations and personalities that he had touched. While I was composing my message for this Talk page, I hadn't refreshed the main page's history to notice that the problem was fixed. 172.56.28.205 (talk) 11:48, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Please reverse the change made by Elgv18483 on 2 June 2024‎ at 17:31 that changed the sentence "According to the 2008 study by Behar, 43% of Iraqi Jews are descended from five women." to "According to the 2008 study by Behar, 43% of Kurdish Jews are descended from five women." The sentence cites Behar's study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2323359/ and I see there the clear statement "Similarly, we found that about 43% of the Iraqi Jewish community can be traced back to 5 women whose mtDNA belongs to Hgs T2c1, J1b'e/J1e, U3b1a, H13a2b and W1d (Table 2), all frequent in the Near and Middle East." It doesn't use the terminology Kurdish Jews there. 172.58.241.140 (talk) 09:18, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done. @Elgv18483 please refrain from making changes unsupported by sources. If you believe that you were right, please explain your reasoning at the talk. Alaexis_¿question? 05:49, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Raphael Falk

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
From thr citation in thr Article, "Anti-Semitism conceived the socio-cultural traits of Jews to be a consequence of their biological essence. Jew-hatred became racism: hatred of the Semitic race, anti-Semitism; it endowed biological justification to socio-cultural discrimination." This should have it's own section. It identifies the main thrust of the artlce as antisemitic and racism. 2603:7000:4600:358A:E975:72ED:AD86:A922 (talk) 18:44, 9 September 2024 (UTC)  Not done - it's not racist or antisemitic to do genetic studies on Jewish people, which find shared Middle Eastern ancestry in most Jewish populations. Andre🚐 08:10, 10 September 2024 (UTC) The source said it is antisemitic and they are a Holocaust Survivor so I am inclined to believe them over someone who quoted Mein Kampft to a Jew to call them diseased and then scrubbed the Talk in order to hide it. But I understand your apprehension as the Wikipedia page's point is that like all Jews I am just a "stupid Jew" who doesn't understand that my "race" is "diseased" unlike the other religions which aren't a race. Well, not me specifically because according to the Wikipedia page here I am a Mischling or half-Jew and thus only halfway diseased because as you said being Jewish is genetic and a disease and I am only half. I still don't understand how converting away grom Judaism to become a member of another religion cures these genetic diseases. Oh that's right it is a race and so it is impossible for Jews to convert. You know the Catholic Inquisition had the same idea and murdered a bunch of Conversos or Jews who converted. Going to side with the Holocaust Survivor on what is and isn't antisemitic and not the dude who quoted Adolf Hitler ashis ideologies were fact. 2603:7000:4600:358A:E975:72ED:AD86:A922 (talk) 12:34, 10 September 2024 (UTC) As if* not ashis 2603:7000:4600:358A:E975:72ED:AD86:A922 (talk) 12:36, 10 September 2024 (UTC) I have no idea what you're talking about, but please tone down your personal rhetoric. I would never quote Mein Kampf and as you can see from my edits, I am a defender of Jews and Jewishness and I am strongly anti-fascist. Some Jewish groups do have higher prevalence of genetic diseases due to endogamy. It's not due to religion, as Judaism is an ethnoreligion, which means there's considerable shared ancestry within Jewish groups. Obviously, a Jewish person who is a Tay-Sachs carrier would not in any way ameliorate their condition by converting to Catholicism. Endogamy evolved due to the tendency of Jewish people to marry other Jews, though some were converts of course. Jews lived separately from their Christian and Muslim neighbors in many of the places where they lived in the medieval and early modern period and into the modern era, with separate social, economic, and political institutions, while assimilation is largely a 19th and 20th century phenomenon for the bulk of modern Jewish groups. Andre🚐 18:40, 10 September 2024 (UTC) You can go back into the reverts and find it. You scrubbed this page and the person who you banned after quoting Mein Kampft to them. They found the book took what you said and compared it to a verbatim quote from the book. You're personally distorting the Holocaust and the research of a Survivor by refusing to recognize your antisemitism and the antisemitism of this Wikipedia page. A strong defender of Judaism wouldn't contribute to propaganda on Wikipedia which only dehumanizes those of the Jewish religion. One of the more recent wipes and scrubs of this page revealed this on their Talk as someone search all of Wikipedia for "Genetic Studies of" and the only religious demographic on Wikipedia being harassed by this bigotry is the Jewish community. Someone who converts away from Judaism is no longer considered Jewish by the Jewish community. The ideology that Jews have a distinct shared ancestry is a Christian ideology developed in the Book of Matthew. Within the Torah there are several cases of converts, the most famous being probably Ruth or Rachel who "sat on the idols of her Father's house" and corrected her lineage as she wasn't a concubine or directly related. Then there are several famous adoptions such as Esther who was adopted into a Jewish family and has a whole holiday which revolves around her being mistaken as a non-Jew because she was adopted by Mordechai or Bal Shem Tov who was also adopted. Additionally, this ideology means that the Israelites followed a pagan because Moshe married Tzipporah who wasn't Jewish but was converted and blessed by G-D. Like you Miriam was being a racist and so G-D cured her to make her a leper. Finally, the Tribal associations at the end of the first book of the Torah do not match those in the final book because it isn't genetic or else the Tribes would have remained the same. From a secular side Oswald Rufeisen was refused their Birthright because they converted to become a Catholic Priest. There is also Sabbatai Zevi who was declared an Apostate for similar ideologies regarding Judaism and hosting an orgy ontop of a Torah during the Shabbat. The founder of the Modern Orthodox movement Azriel Hildesheimer was also declared a non-Jew legally in Hungary after being sued by thr Orthodox Jewish community following the First Hungarian Jewish Congress. As such they were forced to distinguish themselves separately and thus became "Modern" Orthodox. Later the movement left for Berlin where the Conservative and Reform movement did the same during the First Synod. As such the movement came to the USA and endorsed the American Eugenics Movement. The Jewish community here attempted to sue but the case never went to court as the Holocaust began. However, as previously cited, the Judaeans and the Jewish Academy of Sciences held a public form where they denounced their eugenics ideologies as Hitlerism. Now here is the kicker. You're claiming the Jewish people are endogamic but the Torah forbids such marriages by pain of death. As such there is a Shidduch who arranges marriages to ensure endogamy is not present. However, under Catholism there were the Limpieza de sangre or Purity of Blood statutes which forbade non-endogamic marriages and marriages to non-Catholics. The Inquisition kept records which presist to this day of several Jews and Muslims intermarrying as well as the exile of Catholics who married Jews or Muslims. Opposite of this there are plenty of records of Jewish communities accepting these converts such as Abraham Zacuto who became a Jewish pirate following the passage of the Alhambra Decree as one parent of theirs converted. Integration is also not at all modern. The Story of Hanukkah is about the integration with the Greeks who also depicted being Jewish as a race like the Egyptians. As such the Maccabbees killed their Hellenistic priest. Prior to that there is the conversion of the Canaanites by Abraham as he got his army to fight the War of Four on Five from somewhere and the Torah does not hide that there were converted. Infact there is a story about it. Or the virign daughters of the Midianites who were converted at the conclusion of a war. More recently there is the Khzara conversion which took place during the 8th and 9th century by the Christian calendar. Genetics don't matter the soul does. I am quite surprised that you have continually denied the scope and facts of both the Inquisition and Holocaust to insinuate that the Jewish people are 'predominantly inbred and diseased' rather than a religion. Maybe this article from thr US National Holocaust Memorial Museum miggt jog your memory about when you decided to quote Mein Kampft as fact. "The Nazis defined Jews by race, not religion. They claimed that Jews belonged to a separate race. They also claimed that Jews were inferior to all other races. The Nazi definition of Jews included people who did not practice Judaism." https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/nazi-racism It is a religion and I really don't think you know what you're talking about. I am pretty positive you're just a antisemitic since you're literally willing to do what you have done here to the legacy of Raphael Falk. 2603:7000:4600:358A:E975:72ED:AD86:A922 (talk) 19:57, 10 September 2024 (UTC) Your commens are chock full of WP:OR and inappropriate WP:POV material that will not be used on Wikipedia. Your personal opinions are not enough to change the articles. I suggest you find something else to do if you want to contribute here. Andre🚐 20:00, 10 September 2024 (UTC)