Talk:Hell's Kitchen, Manhattan

untitled

My father grew up on 48th and 10th im the 20’s and 30’s. He said that the Kitchen was 28th to 34th St. 34th to 59th was simply, the West Side.

Disambiguation

I was looking for the reality show on FOX. There should probably be a disambiguation page so that one can select this without having to scroll to the bottom of this Hell's Kitchen page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.211.236.57 (talk • contribs) 11:18, 5 July 2005

Good idea. I've created Hell's Kitchen (disambiguation). Several of the links to this article still need to be changed, though. JamesMLane 7 July 2005 22:31 (UTC)

I removed the material about Hell's Kitchen, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada from here and created a stub for it, which I also added to the disambiguation page. -- Lisasmall 08:31, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

A link to the disambiguation page might help... I added one. Edokter 20:41, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Derivation

Is the Derivation section copied from the last paragraph of http://www.midtownmedia.com/chronicle/HKhistory.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.187.216.65 (talk • contribs) 22:22, 24 September 2005

I don't know the actual boundaries of Hell's kitchen, but I do know that "35st" makes no sense. This page mentions 34th Street being the southern boundary, but I can't verify it, so I'm hesitant to make an edit at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Freshyill (talk • contribs) 16:18, 12 January 2006

original research

Today Hell's Kitchen is a mixed neighborhood of yuppies, artists, hipsters, longtime Irish, Puerto Rican, and Dominican residents, and an increasing number of gays. Now largely free from street crime, it is, for the most part, removed from the degree of gangsterism which has long characterized the neighborhood.

For example what is this paragraph based on? it has no citation.--Crossmr 21:28, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Clinton and Hell's Kitchen.

Call me crazy, but when I was younger I remember distinctly that Clinton referred to everything on the west side north of Chelsea-which ended at 23rd/234th - and south of 42nd. I distinctly remember a friend that lived in Clinton, and he was on 25th. Hell's kitchen was a smaller area north of 42nd, and west of broadway. There's definitely been some real-estate, and government "adjustment" of these names here. Not surprising, but it should be noted. Especially since the this article isn't consistent with the Chelsea article. Chelsea is stated to end at 23rd, yet this article states that Clinton goes from 34th to 57th and overlaps with Chelsea. Something is a bit wonky, it can probably be solved by someone digging up some history on the name. For reference the East Village article does a good job of noting that it used to be Lower East Side, and why it changed/is changing back. Domhail 18:15, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

• I would have to agree with you about people now adopting whatever realignments the real estate salespeople have been pitching as the history of New York City, which in fact, is quite contrary to what has actually been the case in past history. But that is a consistent problem that is found throughout Wikipedia in virtually every aspect of historical articles. I forget what type of bias it is called in psychology but it does actually have a name, and represents a very, very real problem in Wikipedia. Most especially, in relation to historical topics. Whatever the bias is called, I believe it is of the same name as what is argued in courts of law, to repudiate or question the validity of the recall of witnesses after long periods of time have elapsed between the event. I had a problem of a similar nature in response to the article on E-mail here over the fact that significant products were left out of the article simply because the experience of the Wikipedia editors was too limited to be familiar with it. Additionally, and this may be the much deeper problem in Wikipedia - there are a lot of bullies on here, who, as in life, aren't gifted enough intellectually to support their merits, so they have to aggregate to manipulate outcomes in other ways. That being said, however, there is some confusion with your remembrances of precisely what is where in The City, but your larger contention of discrepancies in the general scheme seems to be arguably with complete merit... In fact, Hell's Kitchen was a small area on the West Side (it may have overlapped between what they now call Chelsea from 9th Avenue headed west below 34th Street to the Projects but it was very clearly from 34th Street to at least 40th Street from 9th or 10th Avenue to the piers by West Street) and, and although it may have technically been a part of Clinton, it was never the entire neighborhood. Hell's Kitchen was hell, while much of Clinton was simply poor and even industrialized. In fact, a lot of film processing and development work was done in Clinton. That was not possible in Hell's Kitchen. It had the name for a reason and it was the heart of Hookersville. The two areas are absolutely not interchangeable - that is an invention of people trying to sell apartments and buildings with probably no knowledge of NYC, many years after the neighborhoods were no longer neighborhoods... That we can call the Kansas Effect... Stevenmitchell (talk) 00:19, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

• Domhail, I just read the last sentence of your comment above and, yes, the East Village gets that name from a particular person (I believe they even wrote an article about it while I am living in Manhattan) and how the name was changed from Lower East Side which it had been for at least a 100 years (really from the mid-1800s) since before it was a haven for immigrants from Eastern Europe which happens at the transition into the 20th Century and before that I believe it was the Irish, and as a marketing tactic at the end of the 1970s, early 1980s when young people from the suburbs moved into the city reversing its population decline. And yes, the East Village was name given it as a marketing tactic by an Upper Eastside real estate mogul (I forget his name but it is probably locatable in the news, since it was recalled in the 1990s and 2000s in news articles, what this mogul had done earlier to market the area. It was in each of these articles noted how this area was originally always called the Lower East Side. Stevenmitchell (talk) 01:22, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

How is this paragraph POV?

"The names of places in New York City change, either due to the influence of land developers, the City government, or because a name no longer suits a neighborhood's character. A name never changes, though, unless the residents of the city collectively adopt it, which usually takes years and is an uninformal process whereby most people begin to refer to an area by its new name. A recent new name that took root is DUMBO, whereas referring to Hell's Kitchen as "Clinton" has largely been eschewed. Similarly, New York resident rarely refer to Sixth Avenue as Avenue of the Americas. A new neighborhood name may be controversial, as may be its perceived boundaries."

How is that POV? --DavidShankBone 18:22, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi David: My rationale for nuking the paragraph would more accurately be that it is off topic (e.g., Sixth Avenue and DUMBO are not Hell's Kitchen) and doesn't really add anything about the hood to the article. Along with that nuke I also reverted a less precise address for Manhattan Plaza (that was done by the previous poster) Americasroof 18:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The reason I included it was because I am often asked by out-of-towners why one place has two names. I've lived in my adult life, for long stretches of time in six states and 15 cities around the country, and I've never seen such a battle over names of places, or such passion. The reasons are obvious. But do you not think that helps to give context? The wording can be changed (perhaps not "eschewed"), but I thought it was good. No? --DavidShankBone 18:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

While I still feel it is probably off topic, I would be interested in what others say. I won't wrestle over it. Thanks for asking. Americasroof 20:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

i know hell's kitchen from the dream theater song... nice place.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.240.62.213 (talk • contribs) 23:52, 11 December 2006

POV

The sentence "keep dreaming fellas, you'll never destroy our heritage" is total POV and I removed it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.0.1 (talk • contribs) 22:56, 4 January 2007

Map request

{{reqmapin}} — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beland (talk • contribs) 19:00, 17 January 2007

There's a map now, so I've converted this with {{tl}}. If another map is desired, feel free to leave {{reqmapin}} after the WikiProject tag above. --BDD (talk) 16:17, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

COBU

While fascinating, and a connection to Hells Kitchen, perhaps some of this COBU info should go into Church of bible understanding instead? dm 16:44, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

West Side Story: The caucasian gang (Jets) vs the latino gang (Sharks)

I am adding some lines, I have found this: "West Side Story had a fascinating history even before it was presented to the public in New York. The original idea was to center the plot around a Jewish boy and an Italian Catholic girl. The street gangs were to be Catholics vs. Jews. It was shelved for six years because of prior commitments of the parties involves. Finally, it was decided that a native born Polish boy and a newly arrived Puerto Rican girl scenario was more timely and relevant." http://www.talkinbroadway.com/regional/sanfran/s388.html Jack 16:40, 10 Apr 2007 (UTC)

The Warriors (film)

Should they be added the the culteral refernces section? The main antogonists are from Hell's Kitchen. --Markdashark1212 19:58, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Owney Madden was not a native of Hell's Kitchen as he was born in England —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.46.228.75 (talk) 13:29, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Mole People

This is a reference to the "Freedom Tunnel"--see article by that name. The squatters were cleared out when Amtrak resumed use of the tunnel, so the point is outdated.Yngvadottir (talk) 19:52, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Queen Mary 2

The article states that the Queen Mary 2 docks in Hell's Kitchen. I have a direct view of the cruise ship ports from my apartment (I even log the ships that do dock here if anyone thinks that would be relevant info to add). But the Queen Mary 2 is way too large to fit along the West Side. The QM2 docks near Red Hook Brooklyn and Cunard had to build a special dock that to could accommodate it; see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooklyn_Cruise_Terminal —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.113.133.164 (talk) 20:42, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

education

these two schools are in the neighborhood. one is private, the other public

i dont trust the charter school reference

sacred heart of jesus school http://www.shjsnyc.org/ (my alma mater)

P.S. 111 Adolph S. Ochs http://schools.nyc.gov/SchoolPortals/02/M111/default.htm

they are right across the street from each other, in the middle of hell's kitchen — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.135.108.254 (talk) 11:36, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

What don't you trust about it? Nick Levinson (talk) 16:41, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

• This was never called Hell's Kitchen in the 1970s or 1980s... This was Clinton. 10:48, 6 December 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stevenmitchell (talk • contribs)

Baryshnikov Arts Center missing

You need to add the Baryshnikov Arts Center (BAC) at 450 West7th Street to the current residents section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.158.178.107 (talk) 03:33, 6 January 2014‎

• You need to read the article again: Hell's Kitchen, Manhattan#Actor and artist neighborhood, second-to-last paragraph. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:43, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Davy Crockett

I'm not sure I understand the addition of Davy Crockett's quote. We're discussing Hell's Kitchen, and the quote is about The Five Points, which is downtown Manhattan on the East Side. I could understand if it was the first use of the term—ever—was it?? If so, yes, I see the need to mention it. If not, are you generalizing, calling all New York Irish people at that time in history savages? If that is the case, I do not think it is relevant to the piece. Historically, then, the comment and the naming of the area would not be connected at all. This is a specific quote about an area (Five Points) in Manhattan where the population density was much higher than in the wide open spaces of what was considered "uptown" at the time. Please clarify. Pookerella (talk) 01:32, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

This sentence is puzzling

"The 1969 City Planning Commission's 1969 Plan for New York City reported that development pressures related to its Midtown location were driving people of modest means from the area, and the gritty reputation that Hell's Kitchen developed afterward kept real estate prices below those of most other areas of Manhattan."

Prices were rising so fast it was driving out people of modest means; on the other hand, they weren't rising because of the neighborhood's reputation! GeneCallahan (talk) 15:33, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

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Larry Silverstein

The sentence below was stuck at the bottom of the 'September 11, 2001' section. I removed it because it didn't seem to fit there. I couldn't find a better place for it, so I put it here in case anyone else wants to take a stab at it.

Larry Silverstein made part of his fortune that eventually earned him the lease for the World Trade Center by building and managing buildings in the neighborhood.

Leschnei (talk) 18:36, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Hell's Kitchen (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 14:31, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Notability of eating fruits and vegetables

I'd like to discuss the assertion that the statistic for eating fruits and vegetables "is not notable". Is there a source for this not being notable? This information is cited to a NYC Health survey, and is discussed in the article as one of the factors that explains health in neighborhoods. epicgenius (talk) 21:06, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Claim of predecessor in London

There's a quote in the article from the Hell's Kitchen Neighborhood Association that ended with the text:

a similar slum also existed in London and was known as Hell's Kitchen.

I've removed it as there's no evidence for this claim. See this article by Professor Laura Vaughan of the Bartlett School of Architecture at University College London.  — Scott • talk 11:19, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this up @Scott. That is strange, and unfortunately I've seen instances of such misattribution before. I don't know if this mistake is made commonly but, if it is, it may help to put a footnote there clarifying the misattribution (though we would have to find a reliable secondary source other than WordPress). – Epicgenius (talk) 13:24, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Want to join

Please help me to join your organization 165.58.129.150 (talk) 13:14, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Added "more politely" because some people still consider Hell to be a swear word

71.94.157.155 (talk) 05:11, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

As I said in my revert edit summary, you would need a citation that this is said for politeness, and not to phrase it as if it is more polite to us, the editors of Wikipedia. Also, hell itself is not considered a swear word by anyone, only possibly when used as an exclamation. The "hell" in Hell's Kitchen is not a swear word. —DIYeditor (talk) 09:16, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

that is nonsense, and i was just about to ask myself whether the name had ever run into problems (back in the 50s or 60s, say). you couldn't say hell on TV, you couldn't say hell in print, and most families you couldn't say hell if the parents were around. anyone over 40 or so recalls having to substitute "heck" in most contexts.

i always assumed "hell's kitchen" was a nickname! how did they get it into official documents, etc? i can well imagine this being a major problem a generation or two ago.

was "clinton", in fact, promoted as a euphemism to mask the real name? 2601:19C:527F:A680:4112:4C11:D698:8BAC (talk) 01:14, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Of course you could say 'hell' on TV and write it in print. Televised church services said it freqently, and I hear you can find it in print in the Bible. MrOllie (talk) 01:23, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

you could not say it in non-religious contexts, just as you could not say "ass" unless talking about donkeys. i imagine u actually know this. 2601:19C:527F:A680:4112:4C11:D698:8BAC (talk) 06:15, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

And obviously place names, such as Hell, Michigan (named in 1841) or the Hell Creek Formation which was made a national landmark in 1966. - MrOllie (talk) 10:45, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

i question the "obviously" part; until recently there was a fucking, austria; i'm sure journalists and diplomats alike had to tiptoe around that one.

the US had a few place names with the N-word until recently. and some with "squaw" to this day. i am sure there are people / agencies who refuse to use the names.

so it's not unreasonable to think that people / agencies would have done likewise over swears like "hell" or "damn" back in the day. 2601:19C:527F:A680:D02F:299A:68E1:A881 (talk) 12:42, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

They didn't, and you have no evidence that they did. MrOllie (talk) 12:46, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

that's why i'm asking! in a country where the average person would not say "hell" openly, how did anyone reference this place?

i will admit, i don't know how they dealt with nigger canyon or squaw tit either. seems kind of circular to say that no one had a problem with any of these "because they were place names". 2601:19C:527F:A680:D02F:299A:68E1:A881 (talk) 12:54, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Have a look at old editions of NY newspapers. No one had a problem calling it by this name. MrOllie (talk) 14:03, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

i agree there are certainly sources using it freely. but did they all? if u google "unfortunate name" "vulgar name" etc u can find articles complaining about the other 2 i mentioned, but H*ll's Kitchen is well nigh impossible due to Ramsay's TV show. adding "swear words" "profanity" etc is no help, b/c apparently the man has quite a mouth on him.

i shall remain curious, but until i can find Catholic Digest or someone objecting to the name, i will accept that this is a dead end. 2601:19C:527F:A680:D02F:299A:68E1:A881 (talk) 16:46, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

"Hell" is used here as part of a name, not a swear word. Otherwise we'd have a similar problem with Hell Gate. Epicgenius (talk) 19:08, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Clinton

Speaking of Hell's Kitchen's name, I recently reverted a set of edits that claimed that "nobody" referred to HK as Clinton. Daceyvillain reverted back, saying that Hell's Kitchen was the original name and that Clinton thus could not have been a former name. However, "former" does not mean "original"; it is possible for Clinton to have been a former name without it being the original name. The NY Times does support the fact that Clinton is an alternate/former name.

• This 1994 article says that "Clinton" was a relatively new name for Hell's Kitchen but that it didn't catch on with some people.
• This 2000 article says both names were used interchangeably, but that the city created the Clinton Special District to cover a part of the neighborhood.
• This 2009 article describes the name Clinton as having originated in 1959 but says that other people preferred the HK name.

Epicgenius (talk) 19:08, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

My issue with “formerly” is that it implies that Clinton was the original name, or that Clinton was once the primary name. But Hell’s Kitchen was the original name and has always been the primary name used by New Yorkers. My impression is that in 1959 there was an artificial and cynical attempt to use Clinton as a name (e.g. this name wss promoted by businesses and real estate agents, who are now trying to promote other names, like Midtown West). But these alternate names have never been accepted by most New Yorkers. Daceyvillain (talk) 21:30, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

How about “formerly occasionally” instead of “formerly” ? Daceyvillain (talk) 21:45, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

I do agree with you that Clinton is a relative neologism and that the proper name has always been Hell's Kitchen; my issue was the complete removal of the alternate name. However, the wording "occasionally" gives the impression that Clinton was seldom used, when that might not have been the case in the past. For example, the 1994 NYT article describes both new and old residents as using both names roughly interchangeably. As such, I'd suggest rewording "formerly" to "formerly also". – Epicgenius (talk) 21:56, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Okay, ”formerly also” sounds good. Thanks. Daceyvillain (talk) 22:02, 2 March 2024 (UTC)