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Unexplained removal of players

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I added the following this morning, all of which have been removed: Terry Cox; Tim Hart; Richard Thompson; Teddy Thompson; Steven Tyler. They all play hammer dulcimer. They may or may not also play Appalachian dulcimer. I can provide references for recordings on which the above noted names contribute hammer dulcimer, if you so wish. Reformatted (talk) 09:01, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They were most probably removed because they aren't known for their Hammered Dulcimer playing and/or the instrument isn't mentioned in their articles. This list is not for people who may have picked up one for a short while or for just a couple of recorded tracks. It's for players who are either well-known for it or it's their main instrument. The above list does not fit into any of those categories. --WebHamster 11:46, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I take your point, though if you'll check the edit history the reason given for the removal of the above-named list was that they were appalacian dulcimer players. Fact is that they do all play hammer dulcimer, (admittedly from time to time), and that was the reason for my complaint. Reformatted (talk) 18:41, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
They are known for playing the lap dulcimer (Appalachian dulcimer). I'm unaware that any have recorded with the hammered dulcimer or are at all notable for playing this instrument. What is the source stating that each of these musicians plays or records with the hammered dulcimer? Badagnani (talk) 19:14, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll concede you Terry Cox, as I can't find a source which lists it as "hammered dulcimer", rather just "dulcimer". But given that Cox was the band's drummer and also a classically trained percussionist, not to mention the fact that Bert Jansch often played appalacian dulcimer with Pentangle, it seems reasonable to believe it was/is a hammered dulcimer.
As for Richard Thompson, I can reference his own website: http://www.richardthompson-music.com/album.asp?id=15 , for example.
Teddy Thompson, I'll also let you have. The sleeve notes of the Richard Thompson album "Semi Detached Mock Tudor" list him as playing hammered dulcimer, but the youtube video from that tour he is on an appalachian.
Steven Tyler played Hammered dulcimer at several points on Aerosmith's "Nine Lives" album. I'll cite wikipedia as a source, as I can't find any other online breakdown of instruments used on that album: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Lives_(Aerosmith_album)
Tim Hart...regularly played appalachian dulcimer, but also plays the Psalter, which depending on who you ask, is a hammered dulcimer

Reformatted (talk) 20:15, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Psalter" means "book of psalms"; psaltery is a plucked or bowed zither formerly used to accompany the psalms. The psaltery is not hammered, and is, thus, not a hammered dulcimer.
Regarding the Thompson and Aerosmith references, you haven't actually heard the albums and confirmed that what is being played is a hammered, and not a lap dulcimer? It is possible that the Aerosmith sleeve notes, and Thompson official site, are wrong--and it wouldn't be the first time these two instruments were confused for one another. Badagnani (talk) 20:23, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok I'll give you the psaltery ref. Also known as the psalter, depending on where you look. Maybe my source was wrong, but don't shoot the messenger
regarding the RT ref, I own a number of his albums, including the one I referenced above. As far as the reliability of the official site goes, obviously I'm not RT or his webmaster, so I can't vouch for that.
However he is credited as playing Hammered Dulcimer on the following albums:
http://www.richardthompson-music.com/album.asp?id=20
http://www.richardthompson-music.com/album.asp?id=26
http://www.richardthompson-music.com/album.asp?id=15
http://www.richardthompson-music.com/album.asp?id=14
http://www.richardthompson-music.com/album.asp?id=13
http://www.richardthompson-music.com/album.asp?id=12
whilst simply credited as playing "dulcimer" (presumably appalachian) on the following:
http://www.richardthompson-music.com/album.asp?id=46
http://www.richardthompson-music.com/album.asp?id=33
http://www.richardthompson-music.com/album.asp?id=71
http://www.richardthompson-music.com/album.asp?id=72
and finally is credited with guitar, mandolin, electric dulcimer, hammered dulcimer, piano, vocals on the following album:
http://www.richardthompson-music.com/album.asp?id=7
All in all this leads me to believe the official site knows the difference between a dulcimer and a hammered dulcimer.
As for the Aerosmith ref, the lineup stated on wiki is that which is in the sleeve notes of the actual album. And given that Steven Tyler isn't a guitarist, and that it actually says "Hammered Dulcimer", I see no reason to disbelieve the source.

Reformatted (talk) 22:44, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting...So is this your mastermind subject or something? ;-) Reformatted (talk) 00:11, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I've written an article on the contemporary use (in rock, folk-rock, jazz, etc.) of the Appalachian dulcimer (not the hammered dulcimer) for a music encyclopedia, and I know a number of the players involved with such playing. By the way, I listened to Amazon samples for every available track on the albums mentioned above and I could only possibly get a whiff of a few hammered dulcimer notes in the first track of the last album in the first list. Otherwise, it seems missing in action. If he's using dulcimer, it doesn't appear to be very prominent in the mixes of any of those albums. Badagnani (talk) 00:47, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
ok, re: Steven Tyler: Hammered dulcimer is featured quite prominently in the first minute or so of the song Taste of India from Nine Lives. Basically it seems to be doubling the sitar part - presumably throughout, but is far less audible when the drums and bass are prevalent, and as such the amazon preview doesn't verify this.
Hammered Dulcimer is also audible in the fade out to Hole in My Soul, and the intro and chorus of Full Circle from the same album. This is borne out by the amazon preview.
And further to the Thompson Issue, Hammered Dulcimer is prevalent in the instrumental coda to the Song When I Get To The Border on the album I Want to See the Bright Lights Tonight, and in the later parts of the song I Still Dream from Amnesia.

Reformatted (talk) 18:46, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - Good finds. I guess most of these people use the instrument as an overdubbing instrument, never playing it live. I guess these two still count as hammered dulcimer players, if they are listed as such on the albums and the instrument is audible. Badagnani (talk) 18:52, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know that it's all that useful to list every well-known musician who ever played HD on one song but it's also not worth arguing about. I think I solved the problem by noting where someone is a multi-instrumentalist or only an occasional HD player.

There are a number of cimbalom, santur, santur, yangqin, etc. players listed. I think this *is* useful information but added links to the specific instrument for people who played HD family instruments with separate articles.

There are a few people listed who play non-HD stringed instruments with hammers. I gave these dubious tags (since it's possible they also played/recorded HD at some point but aren't known for it) and indicated the instrument they are known for. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.59.10.98 (talk) 20:01, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Billy Bennington

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Billy Bennington perhaps belongs here. There is an album called "The Bardford Angel" but I know next to nothing about him.

Good point, I added him to the list. I'll see if I can scrape together the beginnings of a biography on him. Dsreyn 17:01, 30 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How noted is noted?

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This list says it is for "noted musicians who play the hammered dulcimer". Is it actually a list of musicians who are noted for playing the hammered dulcimer? One of the artists listed here (Steven Wilson) has hammered dulcimer listed as one of the instruments he plays on a few Porcupine Tree albums...but his main instruments are clearly guitar and vocals. What does it take to be on this list? -dvs- 22:08, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If an individual has their own Wikipedia article then they are notable. Shawnc 02:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Please don't remove red links. If the individuals in question are noteworthy, but just don't have articles yet, there is no reason to remove them. Including the links serves as a guide for future expansion. Dsreyn 18:39, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We appear to have a similar situation here to List of banjo players. As discussed there - some people seem to mistakenly assume that "non-notable" and "red linked" are the same thing. But actually, there are plenty of notable people who simply do not have entries yet; in time, I would expect that many of these articles would be created. WP:NN does not say anything about red links. Note the following from the beginning of WP:RED:
Sometimes it is useful to create a red link to indicate that an article will be created soon or that an article should be created for the topic because it is about an important, verifiable subject.
See also WP:RED, which among other things, states the following in the section "Dealing with existing red links":
In topic lists, it is useful to include every topic on the subject you can possibly find or think of. When they are turned into links, the list immediately shows where the gaps in Wikipedia's coverage for that subject are, since all of the topics missing articles will show up in red. Such lists are useful tools in developing subject areas on Wikipedia, as they show where work is needed most.
WP:LISTS does not prohibit including red links either. These editing guidelines exist for a reason, and should be followed whenever reasonably possible. I see no reason why this page should be an exception. Dsreyn 00:47, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The actual discussion and concensus on the banjo player list as with all musician lists is to maintain quality attempt to, over time, make them referenced companion pieces to their main intrument articles. This is the ongoing concensus agenda of the WikiPo=roject guitarists as well as other splinter musician projects. The goal being that all lists match the quality of the featured article; List of Telecaster players. 156.34.216.32 00:50, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure where you are seeing any consensus on the banjo list. Consensus doesn't mean "we all agree to do it your way". Again - I have cited several editing guidelines that support including red links; you have not cited anything that supports your position. Please provide something other than your agenda. Dsreyn 00:56, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Blanking the redlinks without evaluating each one first was a less than optimal way of going about things. WP is a collaborative effort and such a mode of editing projects an attitude of not being willing to work with others. I recommend evaluating each of the redlinked players by looking for sources that each is a legitimate player (that is, a notable performer of the hammered dulcimer, living or dead). If they are, their name can be restored with a link next to it, to assist in the creation of their own WP article. Let's work together here and we can have the best list of hammered dulcimer players anywhere on the Internet, and determine which players still need WP articles. Badagnani 03:39, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The best collaborative process for evaluating the nn links is to create a "red" list here on the talk page with regular editors getting a chance to review each one. Following removal of "true" nn entries a second list of "articles to be created" can be made followed by an effort to create articles for the "forgotten" notables. This process has been done on many other musician lists and the results have been very good. The lists evolve from "school band rosters" into valid resources and excellent companion pieces to their main instrument articles. The List of Telecaster players is an excellent example of that process and that list is a featured article on WIkipedia. 156.34.209.136 10:20, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There is little/no educational or informational value to having red links in a listing.
Merely having a name with no accompanying information or way of getting that information is just a waste of electrons and serves no purpose whatsoever. A red link within a wiki article can have it uses if only for context, but in a list this is nonsensical. If one really must have red links then either create the article yourself if it is so important to you, alternatively create a separate list of red links on the discussion page a-la the Banjo Players page. Red links as "placeholders" on the listings page is confusing for people. WebHamster 12:36, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Please show good faith. If the intention of the blanking was truly to contribute in a constructive manner, the names blanked would have first been moved here and the names discussed, as editors have done collaboratively at other instrument player lists. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and just getting the ball rolling here. It's in your court. Badagnani 22:26, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry but I cannot get past the arrogance of "I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt" WebHamster 09:33, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Notable players without articles

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If the player you wish to add to the list does not yet have an article (aka a "red link"), please add their name below this paragraph so that they can be added to the main list when the article is created. Use wiki-links for the name so they can be seen to change from red to blue:


Perhaps the "to be created" list could be split into a "priority 1"/"priority 2" type of heirarchy. The list loses any integrity if a purposeless red-link gets added to it. And a dulcimer player with some notability like Tina Bergmann could likely pass WP:BIO enough to warrant an article creation for her. But until she has one she should remain on this page and not the main page. 156.34.209.197 02:35, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As the term being used is "notable" and this being Wikipedia it's the WP definition that counts. A list of notable players cannot, by definition, have red links as an article is required to determine if in fact that person is notable (per WP:N and WP:MUSIC). ---- WebHamster 02:42, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Here are some more artists that have released albums and may eventually merit being on the list, judging by the aforementioned standards: Marcy Prochaska, Cindy Ribet, David Fields. Amazinrick 19:05, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

criteria for inclusion?

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Do notable musicians who have occasionally and briefly played hammer dulcimer belong here? It looks like there's been a lot of discussion about this, but no consensus or conclusion. I'd suggest we restrict the list to people who have been verifiably described as "hammer(ed) dulcimer players" or some such variant. Generally, I think a "player" of an instruments is taken to mean someone who played the instrument regularly for a significant portion of their career. But surely this issue has come up for other instrument-player lists... is there a more general discussion and/or consensus somewhere? --Allen (talk) 17:22, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Deine Mudda

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Why is "Deine Mudda" (Maternal Insult) listed as a hammered dulcimer player (in the "M"s)? Someone's idea of a joke? Preferably delete. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CCA2:F180:B8E8:4142:A187:C76F (talk) 10:14, 1 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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