Talk:Mares of Diomedes

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Is this really possible? Can a horse subsist on a diet of meat? Drutt (talk) 05:47, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

YesPeter Napkin Dance Party (talk) 23:43, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes with caveats; horses are far less specialised (and less efficient) herbivores than say cows, they have short guts a small single stomach, canine teeth (albeit relatively small ones)and produce enzymes capable of digesting animal protein. Horses are relatively recently descended from a smaller omnivorous ancestors and have there are "carnivorous horses" in the fossil record, although they looked more like giant hoofed hyenas. I've seen modern references to horses killing and eating small animals. I should imagine a full meat diet would not work very well at all but a conventional diet with a meat supplement would work. My horse once stole half my bacon lettuce & tomato sandwich, he ate the bacon and bread and spat out all the salad but then again he's a dustbin. Bigyaks (talk) 17:22, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I knew a horse who ate hamburgers, but have you ever noticed how much filler is in the average hamburger? LOL! Actually, can you source your above comment? It's rather interesting, I'm skeptical, but open to evidence from reliable sources. Killing, yes, eating, not so much (though I also know of a horse who ate the goldfish placed in a stock tank to keep down the algae!) (grin) Keep in mind that humans eat dirt too. Montanabw^(talk) 22:03, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

"Horses can metabolize proteins of animal origins, a capacity that seems interesting from an evolutionary perspective. Indeed, feeding horses with flesh is not uncommon, for example, fish is given to racing horses in California, blood from pigs to horses in Tibet, and chickens to horses in Valouchistan (Devereux,1975)". Quote from Horse madness (hippomania) and hippophobia, Yiannis G. Papakostas, Michael D. Daras, Ioannis A. Liappas and Manolis Markianos, History of Psychiatry 2005; 16; 467. Ref is a bit lame as it is a Psychatry Journal. Horses can have canines, see Horse teeth. Toby's fondness for bacon stands as original research! Bigyaks (talk) 10:57, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

This is a fun discussion! The contradictory information includes the fact that horses have no gall bladder and do a poor job of digesting fat, bile is produced on a near-continuous basis, necessitating a forage diet. There is an outside limit on how much fat a horse can digest in a day, and vegetable sources seem to be metabolized better than animal ones. Thus, I do not believe the evidence supports the notion that horses could live exclusively on meat -- things like fish meal are added as supplements to boost protein, but there is debate over their efficacy. (That said, my grandpa fed eggs to his horses, believing it would give them glossy coats) Also, though horses technically have canines, they are only common in males, and they are a blunted, almost useless tooth, sometimes thought to exist primarily for fighting (see the skull photo in horse teeth where they are shown) You can add corn oil to a horse's diet to boost fat, and recently they have figured out how to stabilize flaxseed and rice bran in feeds, but the thing of feeding animal parts to horses the way they do for cows is quite problematic (for both) and generally not as effective as a vegetable source. Montanabw^(talk) 23:29, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

If it's not fun then what's the point! Agreed a "wholly meat" diet seems unlikely to be successful, as I said above. However horses are Monogastric, a trait they share with dogs, pigs and humans and are less efficient at digesting plant matter than ruminents "...for example, the horse digests the fibre of average quality grass hay with about 2/3 of the efficiency of the cow (Hintz, 1969)." . In the same paper Hintz also notes that horses may not be able to synthesise all the proteins they require when given a poor quality diet and in such cases protein supliments can aid growth. The ability to digest animal protein and the presence of canines are probably "fossils" inherited from their omnivorous ancestors (Hyracotherium) rather than modern adaptations(with canines probably having a "Sexual Selection" function given their higher occurrence in males?). However horses have very "plastic" behaviour, I can see that the ability/inclination to take small game when opportunity presents as a supplement a poor diet could be an advantage (Pandas do this for example). A google of "carnivorous horses" throws up a few reports of horses being seen to eat small animals but nothing cite-able. If it helps Toby shows a preference for meat flavoured crisps over both "cheese and onion" and "salt and vinegar" flavour, his particular favourite being "roast chicken". Bigyaks (talk) 11:46, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Methinks Toby likes salt! Have you tried potato chips? LOL! The "inefficiency" claim doesn't hold water when you look at the evolutionary niche filled by equus ferus: The deal is that horses are "trickle feeders," used to digesting small amounts of forage all day long. I don't have a google books ref to the Stephen Budiasky book that explains this (The Nature of Horses), but the deal is that horses will survive in scrub prairie and semidesert conditions (the Gobi desert being the last holdout of the Przewalski's horse, for example) where cattle would starve to death. (Also why laminitis is a problem for horses that have too much rich feed) By the way the monogastric article appears incorrect, horses are hindgut fermenters, having a cecum to do the digestion of cellulose, I'm not sure they are classed as colonic fermenters...the cecum is before the colon see here, so not sure if it is or is not part of the colon, works I've seen treat it as separate...?Montanabw^(talk) 23:35, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Also of interest in your observation that horses are poorly equipped to digest fat is that the "fish, blood and chicken" that Devereux is reported as saying are fed to horses are all low in fat, high in protein. Bigyaks (talk) 11:46, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

That stuff boosts protein. They feed animal parts to cows and pigs and chickens too. None of which is good, though pigs are omnivores and if birds are the modern descendants of Dinosaurs, there is some argument for chickens! LOL! Montanabw^(talk) 23:35, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

We tried "ready salted" as a control but meaty flavours preferred! (P.S. USA "chips" = GB "Crisps" LOL!). Budiasky still available on Amazon (New for £85 SH for £2.95 ?!?!?) so unlikely to make google books soon; best horsey book I've read in a long while. Agreed "binge feeding" not good, excess concentrates can be a factor in ulcers & colic as well as Laminitis. However, even if digestion of animal protein were inefficient it could still be beneficial for horses to supplement their diet in this way if that was all that was available. Humans supplementing horses diets in this way has a long history and is presumably beneficial to some extent. Could horses relative success in harsh environments be due other factors? They seem relatively bright (compared to cattle for example) and are, I presume, going to use less energy when walking. The ref. I saw said horses were "monogastric", which I presumed meant a single gut rather than a "Ruminant", I can't find the ref again and am in no way qualified to comment further. The HINTZ ref. is here with no paywall:http://jas.fass.org/content/46/6/1803.full.pdf.Bigyaks (talk) 23:37, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I've just noticed that a google of "Carnivorous Horse" now gives this article as the first hit! Also there is a book out about horses as (quote):"MEAT EATING KILLERS" http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/features/meateatinghorses-190.shtml. Even if meat eating is a myth it's clearly an attractive one.... even your grandfather bought into it!Bigyaks (talk) 23:37, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Now, eggs aren't "meat" -- unless you are a vegan, at least. The issue of feeding animal-based protein to herbivores is a loaded one, for example, cattle feeding in the USA. And of course, all mammals nurse milk from their mamas. I do not doubt that when there is no forage, as in Tibet or the South Pole, any form of nutrition looks good! And then there was the Arabian horse, widely claimed to have survived on dates and camel's milk provided by its Bedouin master! But over time, just as feeding cow parts to other cows, perhaps mixed with sawdust for fiber (yep, it's been done), there are health consequences. As for the "man-eating" animals, it's clear they weren't like tigers and carnivorously consuming the carcasses, those were simply vicious animals (PBS did a great documentary on wild horses once, showing things like stallions killing other animals, including newborn foals too weak to stand). Horses only have teeth and hooves to kill you with, no horns or antlers, after all! Budiasky suggests -- and I agree -- that horses would have become extinct had they not cut a deal with humans and permit themselves to be domesticated! So I guess eating weird food comes with the deal! (We do also feed grain-based cheap pet food to cats and dogs, after all) Really, when it comes down to it, even grain is an "unnatural" food (as compared to forage from grass). As for monogastric yes, the opposite of the multi-chambered stomach of the ruminant; in fact, I just updated that article with some sources, and also created the new article hindgut fermentation. Not my finest works, but fun, and inspired by this conversation! But to bring this full circle, would horses actually CHOOSE to eat something like raw meat? Well, I am NOT about to offer MY sirloin to find out! And as for your meat-flavored crisps, how much real meat is actually in them, anyway? LOL! Montanabw^(talk) 02:22, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Does "Bacon Theft" not count!?! Agree you can't tell much about horses from what humans choose to feed them; you can tell quite a lot about humans though from what they choose to feed horses.... As to the unnaturalness of a meat diet, Isn't that the moral of the Diomedes myth?Bigyaks (talk) 16:32, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Good point, that! As for bacon, I'd correlate to salt content! Montanabw^(talk) 19:41, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

References

Vandalism & Reverts

Awful lot of vandalism and reverts on this article, no progress either, why?116.48.7.69 (talk) 15:34, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Need Some refs, text refers to versions of the myth but no citations. I've flagged these and will try to chase out.Bigyaks (talk) 17:13, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: HUM 202 - Introduction to Mythology

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