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Cover versions

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http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=519391588 lists some original songs covered on this album. May be worth adding info sometime. - Fayenatic (talk) 21:55, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 1

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus and also to ensure this and other discussions don't create an inconsistency, a new multi-move request has been setup over at Talk:No Regrets (Faye Wong album)#Requested multi-page move and all editors are highly encouraged to voice your thoughts over there. (non-admin closure) Tiggerjay (talk) 15:05, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]


No Regrets (Faye Wong album) → ? – Although the whole 1993 album is nearly Cantonese, there is one Mandarin song. Even when usually translated as No Regrets by fans and fansites, I could not find reliable sources from Google News and Books. Well, one news article written in 2010 and a magazine from 1993 won't suffice. As for the title, should it be zhi mi bu hui, zhimi buhui, or zap mai bat fui? George Ho (talk) 07:31, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose Asiaweek interview with Faye Wong 1993 calls it No Regrets. As a general point even without Asiaweek no point in moving a Cantopop album to a Chinese name. Different issue with a Mandarin album. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:52, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Zhimi (執迷) would mean "obsession", and buhui (不悔) means "no regrets" (or "regretless"). Still, amount of sources is too little to call either "No Regrets" or "Stubborn and Regret" a true translation. --George Ho (talk) 15:51, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If the proposal was Jap mai bat fui (Faye Wong album) with consistent (with article) romanization system and parenthetical assistance not disambiguation per WP:NAMINGCRITERIA #1 and #2 would support. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:31, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There are no articles titled jap mai bat fui at this time. --George Ho (talk) 03:40, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I know. As I said assistance not disambiguation. "jap mai bat fui" DOES NOT EXIST in any source, not even an mp3 blog, you and I just created it. Therefore if we are creating this name we want some clue to the reader of what the article is. It is a (Faye Wong album). Are we playing "hide the article" here? In ictu oculi (talk) 17:13, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:AT, as I learned not long ago, natural disambiguation (or assistance) is encouraged. Parenthetical disambiguation (or assistance) can be used if no natural disambiguation (or assistance) is available (or if the current "natural" title violates the policy). --George Ho (talk) 18:13, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You are correct. I have accepted your point on the other RMs. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:42, 22 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. (Cantonese: 執迷不悔; Jap mai bat fui Yale Romanization) In ictu oculi (talk) 02:27, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I can see why VIAF has done that since Jap mai bat fui (album title track) was also released in Mandarin as Zhí​mí​ bù​ huǐ​, but since this is the album article not the single, Cantonese should take precedence. The inverse happens with Eric Mu's second Mandarin album for EMI, called by Mandarin "Tai Sha," in Billboard, where the title track was also released as "Too Silly" in Cantonese (too lazy to look up what Tai Sha becomes in Cantonese, Billboard only gave the Cantonese single's name in English). In ictu oculi (talk) 05:20, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I simply meant that we should choose between English and Cantonese romanisation, ruling out Mandarin. I believe that "No Regrets" is the dominant English transation (hoping to add more sources for that), and still feel that this should be used despite MOS:ALBUM. – Fayenatic London 14:12, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose bit of a conundrum, but I don't like this trend of renaming cantopop albums merely for the paucity of sources for the various 'English titles'. If anything there isn't such a thing as standardised cantonese pinyin, and the sinicised names as proposed look weird, are completely meaningless to the English-speaker, and it has to be said these sinicised names have definitely not passed into English language, and in such a case I would say an approximative yet elegantly translated English title is preferable. -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 09:14, 26 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested multi-page move

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Lengthy discussion
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus for moves. While your desire to consolidate the discussions is understood and appreciated, if you eventually relist please provide all target titles. Miniapolis 13:49, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

– I boldly closed and combined the move requests into a single location. It seems like we might be getting into a consistency issue if we handle each of these articles for Faye Wong independently. The best route forward to ensure we end up with the best and most consistent consensus among these is to have a single place to discuss these. I encourage everyone to bring up their best though out support for these articles as a whole, and duplicating your position from the old RM is encourage, but it would be helpful if you read everyone's comments before simply restating yours, as your position might now be different. Tiggerjay (talk) 15:02, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

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Still in favour of pinyin names for Mandarin, Yale for Cantonese where no English name exists, but am pulling support from all except the 2 most problematic current titles (Restless (Faye Wong album) to Fuzao, Ingratiate Oneself to To Please Myself) to make it easier, hopefully, to get this off the WP:RM backlog. But whatever close is fine. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:20, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, despite MOS:ALBUM#Naming. As Kauffner pointed out at Talk:Only Love Strangers (where a RM is still open), An album title allows you to distinguish one album from another, and this does not work if the language or writing system is very unfamiliar. Romanised Chinese words are hard to read both for most readers of Chinese and for most readers of English; romanised Cantonese is even harder than Mandarin. Therefore, to give people an easier handle on which album is which, we should use good-faith translations, e.g. Pleasing Myself or Faye's Decadent Music. English used in Japanese covers/inserts may help in some cases, e.g. "Lovers and Strangers" is inaccurate but more useful than changing to pinyin. (I would not go as far as using totally unrelated English words which appear on some editions e.g. "It's My Style" on some prints of To Love.) – Fayenatic London 19:52, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose move to Chinese pinyin, as stated below. -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 02:47, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support on "Restless (Faye Wong album)" → Fuzao. Too many names for Fuzao is too much to handle. I have proposed these names in the past. Unlike fuzao, I am really unsure about this move anymore. English sources are scarce, and translations may not be accurate. However, I am moved by arguments of dissent in regards to romanising and familiarity of it. But I won't let inadequate familiarity of romanisation overcome my support for just one name. --George Ho (talk) 23:15, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Per George, I don't think there is a title here that totally fails WP:AT apart from the two I indicated, "Restless" to Fuzao (a good a case as Changyou (album) which already passed) and Ingratiate Oneself to To Please Myself which just needs the English title changing. The Cantonese in Yale should appear first word in lead anyway. I was thinking about why Entaha al Mushwar is okay while Cantonese is not, and I suppose Arabic readers actually get more information from romanization because Roman-Arabic has vowels, original Arabic script does not. Wheras Chinese characters to Cantonese is the reverse - a giant reduction in meaning from ideograms down to toneless alphabet. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:22, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose the use of transliterated titles, per WP:UE: "If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader." See links for Decadent Sounds of Faye ([http://www.amazon.com/Decadent-Sounds-Faye-Wong/dp/B000251I1S/ref=pd_rhf_ee_p_t_1_BXSB Amazon]), Fable (AllMusic, [http://www.amazon.com/Fable-Faye-Wong/dp/B00005HLER/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8 Amazon]), Lovers and Strangers/Love Only Stangers ([http://www.amazon.com/Lovers-Strangers-Faye-Wong/dp/B00003Q58G/ref=ntt_mus_dp_dpt_3 Amazon], AllMusic, CD Universe, MTV, BBC, Taipei Times). Ingratiate Oneself is obviously an unsatisfactory title, but that doesn't mean we should use transliterated Cantonese. [http://www.amazon.com/Access-All-Eras-Tribute-Culture/dp/0335216900/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8& Shane Homan] gives this title as Please Myself (p. 228). (Homan also gives The Decadent Sound of Faye, Love Only Strangers, Mystery, No Regrets, and Random Thoughts.) MTV translates the names of albums they actually have pages about, so the transliterated titles may represent place savers that they haven't gotten around to translating. The main purpose of an album title is to help the reader distinguish one album from another. If these titles were given in pinyin they would all look about same -- certainly to English speakers, and probably to most Chinese as well. Kauffner (talk) 08:58, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, if "pinyin ... all looks about same ... and probably to most Chinese as well." then that's a serious argument against the RM. But we probably should check it first; I'll add a footnote to the existing RM note by 70.24.250.103 at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject China. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:27, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In China, pinyin is used primarily as an aid to pronunciation. It's not a writing system. It may be occasionally used on public notices and signs, but it's difficult to convey any meaning. I consider such a joke and I suspect many others so also. -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 18:23, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

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Any additional comments:
I'm only aware of one, Changyou (album) where the English was totally wrong. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:47, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Currently at Requested Moves, not consolidated here: Fable (album), Only Love Strangers (though there were others when this was originally filed as a consolidated move). -- 65.94.76.126 (talk) 20:58, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Good move. Important discussion.

As I said in one of the discussions, I think that firstly, we need to look primarily at WP:AT: Article titles should be recognizable to readers, unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources (my emphasis).

We also need to look at guidelines such as Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums/Album article style guide#Naming and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (music)#Bands, albums and songs. Two initial observations: One, I think that the first in particular is often misquoted, and needs to be read and applied with some care; Two, they're both works in progress, and the outcome of this discussion may well be an input to that process. Andrewa (talk) 18:56, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]


From the Survey above:

particularly Strong support for Restless (Faye Wong album) to Fuzao, where the current title, or any other of the half a dozen English attempts is untenable

Your previous vote at Talk:Restless (Faye Wong album)#Requested move referred to WikiProject Albums/Album article style guide aka MOS:ALBUM, and specifically the Naming section, and quoted the relevant paragraph there in its entirety.

But if as you now seem to be saying there are half a dozen English attempts at an English language name, this indicates to me that English sources do use English language titles. Can you be specific, and also say why should we ignore these English language sources?

At the very least, there should be redirects from these half dozen English attempts. Currently [1] [2] there don't even seem to be any for the two (Stubborn and Regretless [3] and Never Deplore [4]) listed in the lead (and both of which cite English language sources). Andrewa (talk) 21:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hi Andrewa,
English sources invent English titles yes. We too can invent titles or follow a previously invented title if we feel it is a good invention.
However there's not much point creating redirects from a bracket disambiguated term random word (Faye Wong album), what we can do is add those that are more than just random mp3 page translations to random word (disambiguation) in each case.
In ictu oculi (talk) 01:21, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
But I hope nobody is suggesting that we should invent titles. And nor should we stand in judgement as to whether our sources invent titles. Our only question is whether they use the title. Andrewa (talk) 10:08, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree, it is very evident that sources do "invent" titles for Cantonese albums. It is well known from common knowledge and demonstrated by the source dates in at least two of these articles. Unlikely that Billboard ever invented a name, but names appearing differing from Billboard in sources unconnected with Emi Cinepoly and so on do invent names, it's a fact. Homan has so (inadvertently probably in reflecting mp3 download sites?) in at least one album, the pdf by the HK University researchers definitely did so. Japanese record companies are also known for doing it with Chinese and Korean music. The Fuzao album with 6 English names is a prime example of where inventing has happened. Amazon.com "invents" in that Amazon marketplace sellers can pick titles. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:09, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The albums are not marketed to the English speaker, and as such they do not bear official English names. It does seem that reviewers may be tempted to 'translate' the album title because they, like me, feel slightly uncomfortable with simply using the Chinese title or phoneticising it. This is no cha chaan teng, which is a cultural concept. Cantopop is a very popular genre even on the mainland, as is Faye, so to simply give the works Cantonese pinyin names does not seem all that reasonable to me as mainlanders are certainly able to identify the albums by their Chinese characters. I see that using Mandarin pinyin also as problematical because that would strip the name of the idiograms that truly identify the work even if properly adorned with diacritics. Mandarin pinyin is of course also less relevant to the works than Cantonese, as only one is not all are in Mandarin.

    In cases like this, I feel that one option would be to move them to Chinese namespaces – in effect ignoring all the rules as there is no official Cantonese pinyin – and leaving the redirects in place. Another option would be to adopt any reasonable attempt at using English it as having been offered by reviewer 'AN Other' as a possible title. It would come down to preference as none of theme seems to be any more 'recognisable' than any of the others. Of the three potential names given by reviewers in the case of '執迷不悔', my preference would be to retain the existing title; ditto all the others.

    However, overall, after some deliberation, I would not like to avoid IAR and necessarily go with the treatment of some other works. My preference is leaning towards using the Sinograms. -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 01:56, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • The last 3 albums are all Mandarin. You mean "using the Sinograms" in title parenthesis??? as No Regrets (執迷不悔), they are already bracketed in lead. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:13, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Is there any precedent for a non-Latin alphabet title? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:22, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am unsure as to what it would achieve to use the Sinograms as disambiguators as you interpreted. What I am trying to say is that we should not be slavish in following precedent. If we can make a well-argued case, we are given as one of Wikipedia's pillars the option of ignoring all the rules. -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 02:24, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's okay I simply misunderstood what you were saying. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:51, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: What is the exact proposal? The title Cantonese title cannot possibly refer to an album.

    The problem with Chinese vs. the other languages is you cannot simply transliterate Chinese. You can, but there are problems. For example Fable will be known as "Yuyan" in Mandarin and "Yuyin" in Cantonese. You'll say, oh it's a Mandarin album, so use its Mandarin name, but there are also Cantonese songs, and HK people won't call it that, and it was originally released in Hong Kong. Guess what the Japanese title of that album is? (Check http://www.flickr.com/photos/37619549@N02/3487948913 ) "フェイブル" Feiburu. Yes, "Fable". Timmyshin (talk) 05:02, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The proposal for the 4 Cantonese albums was Yale romanization. Fable (album) isn't in the RM, partly because of little clues like that Japanese side strip saying "フェイブル" pasted on by the Japanese distributor. The two free Cantonese-versions at the end of the album aren't that relevant, many Cantopop albums have a duplicate Mandopop version and vice-versa. Different language versions only become significant if an album is evenly split (which I've never seen on a major new release, only with a few "Best of" compilations). In ictu oculi (talk) 05:38, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
OK that makes sense, even though I honestly don't support it... but I can see the reasoning and won't object. Only thing: why "Fei Mimi Zhi Yin" not just "Fei Mi Mi Zhi Yin"? "Mimi" 靡靡 isn't a readily understood Chinese term, by itself, it always goes with "zhi yin" as "mi mi zhi yin". Timmyshin (talk) 07:46, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nearly always in modern usage, yes, but mimi is normal pinyin, see romanization in Andrea Goldman Opera and the City: The Politics of Culture in Beijing, 1770-1900 2012 Page 133, it's also the usual pinyinization in dictionaries. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:20, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Survey of other language albums on en.wp

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This is simply being tacked onto the end here as a link dump. Anyone feel free to add if needed. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:57, 29 April 2013 (UTC) Non-latin scripts:[reply]

Re-expanding poll

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I think this is all getting a bit muddled. To establish clearly what the sentiment is, please state on one line for each album what your proposed name change is, if any. I will start:

  1. No change -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 04:42, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  2. No change, per [http://www.amazon.com/Access-All-Eras-Tribute-Culture/dp/0335216900/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8 Homan]. Kauffner (talk) 16:15, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  3. No preference. --George Ho (talk) 16:34, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  4. No change. – Fayenatic London 20:50, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  5. No preference, given lack of stable Cantonese romanization. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:56, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. No change -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 04:42, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  2. No change, per Homan. Kauffner (talk) 16:15, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  3. No preference. --George Ho (talk) 16:34, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  4. No change. – Fayenatic London 20:50, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  5. No preference, given lack of stable Cantonese romanization. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:56, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. No change -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 04:42, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  2. No preference. Kauffner (talk) 16:15, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  3. No preference. --George Ho (talk) 16:34, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  4. One Person Playing Two Roles, translating all the Chinese words (see talk page). – Fayenatic London 20:50, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  5. One Person Playing Two Roles, translating all the Chinese words (see talk page). In ictu oculi (talk) 03:49, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. No change; no opposition to 'To Please Myself' -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 04:42, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Rename as To Please Myself, per Homan. Kauffner (talk) 16:15, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Rename as To Please Myself (or Please Myself). --George Ho (talk) 16:34, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Rename as To Please Myself or Please Myself. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:30, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Rename as Please Myself; there is no grammar particle suggesting "To" in this case, unlike To Love (Faye Wong album) which does have one. – Fayenatic London 20:50, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. No change -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 04:42, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  2. No preference. Kauffner (talk) 16:15, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Fuzao. --George Ho (talk) 16:34, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Fuzao In ictu oculi (talk) 17:30, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  5. No preference – Fayenatic London 20:50, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. No change -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 04:42, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  2. No change, per AllMusic. Kauffner (talk) 16:15, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  3. No preference. --George Ho (talk) 16:34, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  4. No change – Fayenatic London 20:50, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  5. No preference, to close RM In ictu oculi (talk) 03:56, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. No change -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 04:42, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  2. No change, per [http://www.amazon.com/Decadent-Sounds-Faye-Wong/dp/B000251I1S/ref=pd_rhf_ee_p_t_1_BXSB Amazon] and Homan. Kauffner (talk) 16:15, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  3. No preference. --George Ho (talk) 16:34, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  4. No change – Fayenatic London 20:50, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  5. if remaining with English at least drop the -s per 2 English sources Decadent Sound of Faye. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:56, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. No change, or 'Lovers and Strangers' -- Ohconfucius&nbasp;ping / poke 04:42, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Rename as Lovers and Strangers, per [http://www.amazon.com/Lovers-Strangers-Faye-Wong/dp/B00003Q58G/ref=ntt_mus_dp_dpt_3 Amazon], AllMusic, and CD Universe. Kauffner (talk) 16:15, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  3. No preference. --George Ho (talk) 16:34, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  4. No change; fallback, Lovers and Strangers. – Fayenatic London 20:50, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  5. No change, stick with more accurate English translation. Anyone working from the Chinese title and guessing at the English name would start with "Only" in the search box. Lovers and Strangers can redirect. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:56, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. No change -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 04:42, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  2. No change, per AllMusic and [http://www.amazon.com/Fable-Faye-Wong/dp/B00005HLER/ref=sr_1_1? Amazon]. Kauffner (talk) 16:15, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  3. No preference. --George Ho (talk) 16:34, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  4. No change. – Fayenatic London 20:50, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  5. No change. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:56, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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