Talk:Varg Vikernes/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Mixed marriage?

One fact that Varg and all the others who interpret the Lore in a Fascistic manner is that, according to that very Lore, the Thunder God Thor is the son of a racially mixed marriage. That is, Odin, his father who is Aseir and Jord, his mother who was Jotun (Giantess).

Neo-Nazis, Fascists and others of similar ilk are, in my experience, opposed to 'racially mixed marriages' but here, right in the Lore, is an important figure, a God no less, who is the product of a marriage between two races who are at war...

Also, the Havamal, from whence Varg took his inspiration re: Vargsmal, it says:

2. Gefendr heilir! Gestr er inn kominn, hvar skal sitja sjá? Mjök er bráðr sá er á bröndum skal síns of freista frama.

3. Elds er þörf þeims inn er kominn ok á kné kalinn. Matar ok váða er manni þörf, þeim er hefr um fjall farit.

4. Vatns er þörf þeim er til verðar kemr, þerru ok þjóðlaðar, góðs of æðis ef sér geta mætti orðs ok endrþögu.

Or in English:

2. Hail, ye Givers! a guest is come; say! where shall he sit within? Much pressed is he who fain on the hearth would seek for warmth and weal.

3. He hath need of fire, who now is come, numbed with cold to the knee; food and clothing the wanderer craves who has fared o'er the rimy fell.

4. He craves for water, who comes for refreshment, drying and friendly bidding, marks of good will, fair fame if 'tis won, and welcome once and again.

It says nothing about what racial background the guest should be.

Neo-nazis who seek to use the Lore to support their racist ideas are contradicted by that very same Lore.

Nik Warrensson

according to "VÅRGSMÅL", Varg's 'manifesto', he views giants as being personifications of the earth, so Odin being born to a giant mother is a metaphor for people being children of the land they come from. As to the lore regarding guests, it doesn't say that the guest would be regarded as a member of the host's own people, which is what Neo-Nazis would object to.

It must also be said that in the time when e. g. "Havamal" was written, they did not know of any other cultures, so why should they write that you should guard yourself from other cultures? If you do not have these so-called Neo-Nazi/Fascist ideas, there would be nobody left to keep the Norse culture alive! That is the Scandinavian Neo-Nazis' point with using the Norse culture's symbols etc. and the German Neo-Nazis' point with using whatever ancient culture they belong to's symbols and texts. --Erkekjetter 13:16, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Is that really true, wouldn't they have some contact with for instance Celts, Romans and Slavs? I read that Havamal was written in the 9th Century, and then already Ansgar, the first Christian missionary has travelled to Scandinavia.

A number of scientists believe that christianity and norse beliefs coexisted in Norway for several centuries. In the later part of the national romance period it seems like a lot of people fancy the idea of a viking warriors with heathen rituals in strange looking temples, although it is difficult to qualify such claims. It is a lot easier to explain the later norse beliefs if christianity and heathen beliefs coexisted.

To claim that the norse beliefs existed without any influence from abroad should be readilly dismissed anyhow. A lot of places in Norway trade goods are found, and a lot of this comes from places far away. The number of roman swords alone should be enough to dismiss any claims that Norway was an isolated nation.

— John Erling Blad (jeb) 04:16, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

What the hell does this have to do with everything? So you dislike Racialist Odinism? Doesn't have really give you the right to rant on about it here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.45.126 (talk • contribs)

Notes on timeline

September 17, 1993, Kriminalsjef Truls Fyhn tells press Varg Vikernes is to be put to trial for the killing of Øystein Aarseth, as a fingerprint in blood is connected to Varg Vikernes

— Bergens Tidende, September 18, 1993

September 27, 1993, Politiinspektør Sveinung Sponheim at Oslo Police tells Bergens Tidende that the church arsoning group is finished its work about Varg Vikernes. Sponheim says further: The killing of Øystein "Euronimous" Aarseth, arsoning of Åsane church, Holmenkollen chapel, and Skjold church in Vindafjord, attempted arsoning of church tower in Storetveit church, excessive explosives theft, (gravskjending) and collaboration to (murder by arsonning) in Stocholm. Only the arsoning of Fantoft stave church has been difficult for the police to proof.

— Bergens Tidende, September 28, 1993

May 13, 1994, "The court has found it beyond disbelief that Varg Vikernes is found guilty in arsoning Fantoft stave church. This is what the three juridical court members (juridiske fagdommere) said, førstelagmann Agnes Nygård Haug, ekstraordinær lagdommer Tor Holmøy, and herredsrettsdommer Torolv Groseth i Eidsivating."

"Still, the juridical court members accepted the jurys "not guilty" in the case if Varg Vikernes did commit arsonning of Fantoft stave church. The courts juridical members found that the verdict "not guilty" was obvious wrong, but because of economical matters accepted the verdict."

"Because of this Varg Vikernes is found "not guilty" in a strict sense but found to be guilty by the judges."

— Bergens Tidende, May 14, 1994

October 19, 1994, High court rejects Varg Vikernes appeal and the judgement is standing. That is maximum imprisonment for one capital murder, three arsoning of churches, one attempted arsoning of a church, five burglaies, and one attemted burglary. Eidsivating lagmannsretts judgement of 21 years imprisonment is standing.

The verdict against 22 years old Snorre Ruch which been convicted in the same case to 8 years for collaborating in the killing of Øystein "Euronymous" Aarseth is also standing.

— Bergens Tidende, October 20, 1994

Majstorovic

Novak Majstorovic of Schwarzreich did not burn down the last two churches on the list. He has been released but into police custody. Please find a relevant news article to support any claims for that reference to be there.

• I don't even know why we need these on this page, they have nothing to do with Varg' XdiabolicalX 02:42, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The media seem to think otherwise, they blamed Vikernes' 'influence' as the reason for Majstorovic torching the church.

• as you probably know the media think a lot of things wich aren't true in order to sell more. XdiabolicalX 22:01, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

and they are super powerful. it influenced his case greatly

I read about this guy, he's alright and I think an article should be created about him n his band —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.107.182.227 (talk) 04:02, 12 March 2007 (UTC).

Moving misplaced links

A reference placed under external links, and vica verca. A band site should be an external link, a newspaper should be a reference.

Also going to add back a removed reference.

The reference to Metal reviews is removed because there is no way to qualify that this is the same person

User:Agtfjott

From the trial

A short excerpt from the trial as printed by Verdens Gang on May 6, 1994

A 18 years old swedish girl, had written in her diary "My Count is named Grishnack. He has bitten me. He has drunk my blood. I have drunk his. I shall be his Countess." This was later confirmed in court May 6.

— The count had told me he arsoned Fantoft stave church particularly because of the buildings age. Because it was so old, an imense power resided in the walls. By burning the church to the ground, the power should be transfered to him, told the now 20 years old girl in court.

That the church should be arsoned, the swedish girl claimed to know a long time before. As late as two and a half hour before the fire the count called the swedish girl.

— I was tired when he called. The count said he should arson a church before the dawn of light. In the morning I went to Oslo, and there I visited Øystein Aarseth (later to be killed, red). Together we watched TV and the news that Fantoft stave church was burnt to the ground during the night.

— I thought it was good.

Agtfjott 21:21, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

This girl has obviously misunderstood Vikernes' meaning of the title count.

Quote from Vikernes' Vargsmål (1994) (poorly translated by me from Norwegian to English):

"Count Grishnáckh". The reason for why I chose this name, was not to have a "cool" name. The word "count" derives from the Latin word "comtes", which means "partner" or "companion". I am the pure German people's partner and companion, and with that, I chose that title! One of my ancestors was named "Susanne Malene Qisling" (not "Quisling", but "Qisling"). "Qisling"/"Quisling" means "the one who derives from a side secion of the king's lineage".

This means that using an aristocratic for me, is not a that bad misuse as it would be for many others.

--Erkekjetter 12:54, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

This is a quote from a statement read from her diary, in the court. Agtfjott

- During the murder case, the 22-year-old Snorre Ruch was put on trial together with Varg Vikernes and sentenced to 8 years of imprisonment, although he had nothing to do with the killing of Euronymous.

This implies Ruch was either wrongly convicted, which is very serious claim to make without a reference, or he was convicted for something completely else, which would need either a reference as well or a removal. 194.157.87.200 08:29, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I fixed it. The speculation has been removed.

→ P.MacUidhir (t) (c) 17:23, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Snorre actually was convicted.

Snorre's own (Freemason) defense lawyer even witnessing against his own client, in his eagerness to "get" me, and when Snorre was convicted even the jury looked sad ("I am sorry, but we have to convict You too"), and I don't think anybody had expected that. It was an unexpected turn of events of all of us. In court I told them that Snorre had nothing to do with any of this and that he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, but the next day Snorre was witnessing and claimed that I was wrong. I had planned everything, and he knew it because he was a part of it. His whole defense plan was to make sure I couldn't blame him, but I actually had never even thought about that (and it took me quite some time to even understand that this was his worry). Had he told the truth he would have been released from prison, but instead he stuck to his lie - because his defense lawyer bullied him into sticking to it - and he got 8 years for doing absolutely nothing.

Varg states this here in A Burzum Story Temple-of-Monkeys (talk) 09:28, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Random edits

It seemed kind of pointless to have the only picture of Vikernes smack in the middle of the article, so I moved it up. There wasn't a specific reason it was down there, was there?

I'm also making some spelling corrections as I see them.

I removed the following until I can figure out what it's trying to convey: As of 1999 Varg Vikernes has a debt to Oslo municipality and Gjensidige insurance company (now DnbNOR) of NOK13.5 million, after a trial in 1998, and at that point additional debts for other arsonings of about NOK23 million [1], although some sources use other figures. Is is Is 21:44, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

There should be a newer image of him but the one used was without a source or lisence.

His debts was in the original article but without references, and the figures was in error.

I beleve this is part of the complete story as it is describing one of several trials.

The lesser felonies isn't the church arsoning but a long list of additional felonies. As it reads now it seems like the church arsonings and the death of the fire fighter isn't important at all, yet this is what he is known for.

— John Erling Blad (jeb)

I just changed his current location, as the burzum website revealed on the 12/6 that he has been moved to Tromsø Prison 137.166.4.130 16:21, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I have edited this page to include Varg's criticism of J.R.R. Tolkein, the importantce of bathing in ancient Paganism, some translations for his book titles from Norwegian to English, and removed the reference to his tentative release from prison in April 2006, which did not happen. Fahle

Burzum's second album, Det Som Engang Var, was never released on DSP. Varg was originally going to let DSP release the album because the police took all of his address lists and Euronymous had just gotten a deal with Voices of Wonder to help with the release. However, Varg ended up starting his label, Cymophane, and releasing it himself.[2] I edited the appropriate sentence.--69.183.163.97 14:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

What is this nonsense about some guy in Wisconsin burning over 100 churches? That name doesn't show up anywhere else on the internet and has no source. Deleting.

This "Lord of the Rings" section is idiotic, and not even required...I'm tempted to delete the whole lot of it, but for now im just going to change this: "Vikernes has been fascinated with the fictional realm of Mordor from J. R. R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings from a very young age (his stage name is taken from that of a minor character in The Two Towers), claiming to have mastered the Black Speech from which he took the term Burzum:" "Ash nazg durbatulúk, ash nazg gimbatul,ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul." ("One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the Darkness bind them.")" Who put that there... Isilioth 05:52, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Music

There needs to be MUCH more about his music in this article. Could someone with the knowledge help us? 85.166.243.23

- There is no need for more music. There already is an article "Burzum" although i can agree there has to be something more to do with his music. but not in the way like, album releases, session musicians etc. I also believe the lyrical themes can be discussed in the page < but still, i think that belongs to Burzum page. it's about the person himself, not his music.

I know it's old but i wanted to clarify things a bit. Darksteel 13:47, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

This article lacks totally in its desciption of Vikernes the musician. It is highly unusual that one should have to read the article on the band a musician is or was a member of to gather this information. __meco 19:59, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Zara1709's brilliant logic

Nazi's were racist. Varg is a racist. Therefore, Varg is Nazi!

See why wikipedia fails? 24.12.189.115 19:45, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Vikernes obviously is a racist. But I never said that that all racist are Nazis, (Although all Nazis are probably also Racists.) and that therefore Vikernes is also a Nazis.

First, you should have noted, that the quote from the book by Matthias Gardell is not taken as reference for the point that Vikernes is a Neo-Nazi, but for the point that he has been accessed of being one. This is quite a difference.

You have demanded that people should be able to decide for themselves. Withholding from them the information that Vikernes has been accused of being a Nazi it is you who wants them to be misinformed. Similarly, you have to link text from Vikernes from which the quotes are taken, so that people can see what kind of confusion Vikernes tries to avoid. I mean, check this out:

" A Scandinavian, for instance, has no good reasons to emotionally react negatively to "nazism", but I understand that a Slav has a perfectly good reason to do so."

"Naturally I never had the intention to offend or alienate Slavs" [Emphasis sic].

"This term [Odalism] replaces everything positive about all the other -isms I have ever used, and in it lies Paganism, traditional nationalism, racialism and environmentalism. It is not only a more accurate but also a more inclusive term that can be used by all [Emphasis sic] Europeans (and others too for that sake). Finally, and perhaps most importantly, it is not a term tainted by history."

The only difference between Virkenes' racism and the Nazi racism seems to be that the Nazi were pan-German (regarding all non-Germans as inferior) while Vikernes is pan-European (regarding all non-Europeans as inferior). It is quite an achievement of Vikernes that he is able to criticise the Nazis for the Genocide of the Slavs, without mentioning The Holocaust.

Only indirectly the whole 'Nazi Ghost' text keeps referring to it, why else would Vikernes say that the term 'Nazism' is tainted by history.

And just let me add that Matthias Gardell is far from being an antifascist or writing from a left perspective. In the preface of his book he states that his research would not have been possible without the cooperation of some prominent members of the pagan part of the white supremacy scene in the USA. -Zara1709 03:50, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Category: Anti-Semitic People

Does anybody have evidence Varg's anti-semitic? He maybe against Judaism and Christianity as religions, but I can't see any proof that he hates the Jews as a race. (or atleast he doesn't hate them more than other Non-Germanic races). Anti-Judaism/Christianity ≠ Anti-Semitism.

It's just over-zealous leftist people putting another person in the Anti-Semitism category because they criticise Judaism or Israel or whatever. Varg never makes a reference to Jews as a people, only to Judeo-Christianity. I've removed it because it's completely stupid.

White Aryan Resistance sure sounds like a really tolerant, loving group. Bartleby 06:17, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Also in his testimony that he wrote on a website i'm too lazy to look up again now, he seems to be very skeptical/racist in regards to Jews and Freemasons. --Gettin money 08:32, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Reference to the Porvoo cathedral arson

I am removing the sentence "According to District Attorney Petri Vaaja, the motivation of the arsonist was 'virulent hatred towards Christianity'" and the link to the Iltalehti website from the reference to the 2006 arson of the Porvoo cathedral in Finland from the "related news" section. The sentence violates the neutral point of view policy of Wikipedia. The attorney's claims were based on a misinterpretation of the suspect's statement: "I am critical about religion but not hostile." Also, a complaint was made to the Council of the Public Word about the biased point of view of the news concerning the case. [3]

Heathen Front

...are described as both "atheist" and "neo-pagan". Tricky...

"black metal musician and racist"

Is it really nessasary to put his racism in such prominence? It may be more relevant to speak of his religious beliefs or such. Zazaban 02:26, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

It would probably be better to phrase it as "racialist" or "facist activist" to make the ideological nature of his racism clearer. But he's pretty notorious for it, so it probably might as well stay. Bartleby 04:46, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Religion and Occupation

Okay, from vargs own writings he has expressed being an Athiest with pagan ideals [4]. Also a recent edit that removed the titled of composer from this site was left with one excuse (if I could even think to call it that) "I don't know if he's a writer, but he's diffinitly not a composer," Well, given that a composer writes music, I'd like to ask how he is not a composer?! and yes we KNOW he is a writer, anyone who spent more than 10 minutes reading his articles knows he wrote them. I believe that who ever (poorly) edited the page thought that "composer" meant "Classical-era concerto/symphony composer" and that "writer" meant "novelist", but we know this isn't the case. Hopefully this is settled, thank you. AlexanderLevian 16:52, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Let me get this straight. You want to take a statement like this as evidence for Vikernes' atheism:

"The Australian aborigines were and still are too stupid to understand that there are no spirits. The Negroes and other inferior races were and still are too stupid to understand that there are no gods or a god either." What is one supposed to make of this? Vikernes explains it in the next paragraph: "If it is supposed to serve a purpose Paganism needs to be an ideology, not a religion, and the gods and goddesses must be seen as a role models to us and not as actual beings of any kind. Quite a few questions remain unanswered by science,..." and after that soon goes on to attack Christianity. This is a good question. Does Vikernes believe in Paganism or does he only see it as part of a fascist ideology? Somehow similar to the question of Adolf Hitler's religious beliefs. The problem with Vikernes homepage is the eclecticit nature of the texts there (apart from the racism and other Nazi elemtents.) In one text Vikernes writes about the lost continent Thule [5]. In how far these kinds of speculation, that were also done by the Thule Society or Alfred Rosenberg are a religion in the established meaning is not clear - but this is definitely not atheism. I would call it occult. In another text Vikernes criticizes the atheism of his 'fellow' Norwegians [6]: "When I advocate Paganism today I therefore face a peculiar problem. A huge number (perhaps even a majority) of my own countrymen, and in particular those of the male gender, reacted to the Judeo-Christian propaganda in elementary school in the same way as I did, and because of that they too are so extremely negative to any type of religions and religious rituals that it becomes hard for them to embrace even a Pagan religion and any types of religious rites. The main hindrance in the propagation of Paganism in Norway, and possibly in the rest of Europe too, is in other words not Judeo-Christianity, but the fact that so many despise religion on a general basis, because of their involuntary experiences with Judeo-Christianity in school. To be religious has because of Judeo-Christianity become synonymous to being weak and stupid." Although Vikernes goes on with an unoriginal hardware/software metaphor afterwards, there is evidence against him being an atheist there.

In my opinion Vikernes 1) either does not know himself, what he believes and changes that on a regular basis or 2) the text you take as evidence for him being an atheist is fake and was added by the person or persons responsible for the homepage (that is not run by Vikernes himself) because they on their part oppose Vikernes religious attitude to racism.

Concerning his occupation: Composer? Are you serious? Straightforward,the difference between a musician and a composer is that a composer is someone who writes musical notes. Now read how Vikernes detailes his way of making music [7]. If he indeed managed record his first album in just 19 hours, he is a good musician (regardless of the quality of that recording). But don't call that composing music as in "composer". And writer? Anyone who has a homepage or webblog writes something, but that does not make him a writer by occupation. I admit though, that Vikernes has written a book "Vargsmål" that according to his homepage somewhere is available in some Norwegian library if I remember correctly. But it is also on his homepage or in Lords of Chaos that this book was not published at first because of its extreme content. Mattias Gardell apparently had it available, since he quotes from it in Gods of the Blood. I you can turn up the publication history of that book (if you're in Norway, try inquiring at the National Norwegian Library if they have it) I don't mind if you add the 'writer' back in. Zara1709 05:16, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Atheist? If you read his interviews you'd realise he's a profound Theist, with his praise of Odin and other Germanic deities etc.

First, I don't think it's up to wikipedians to decide if having religion means you're NOT an atheist (but I will double check before any more editing). Atheism is PURELY defined as rejecting the notion of theism (belief in god(s)/deities), this is a belief that varg stated in his 2nd to last writing, as opposed to the Neopaganistic "praise odin" of the earlier writings. However, you make a point that would require a new entry into the article regarding more recent changes in his belief(s). Secondly, having wrote essays (regardless of the manner of publication) and a book (regardless of delay of publication) does constitute him being a writer (once again, I'll double check wikipedia's standards of labeling professions, if there is one). The same things stands for him being a composer (after all, if we allow every editer to make changes based on their opinions, as oposed to set definitions of english and wikipedia, then almost no one would agree). I'll wait a couple of days before editing to check a few things and give everyone a chance to respond. Thank you AlexanderLevian 05:07, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

A few things I missed.. first, to the statement "Composer? Are you serious?", yes, if I post it, I'm very serious and expect the editor(s) response to be equally serious. secondly, I've noticed that you claim the article to be a fake, and yet use a article from the same page to "prove" how he writes music, though I will admit that without proof that he actually composed the keyboard works he released while in prison he can not be label a composer. going back to the statement "the text you take as evidence for him being an atheist is fake and was added by the person or persons responsible for the homepage", this is a serious acusation that will require actual proof and possible legal action, but then there is no proof is there, It's his offcial home page, the material is copy righted and YOU will have to prove that it is fake. I will wait the rest of the day before adding the newly atheistic views of varg into the article. But I HAVE TO continue the writer label. He is a writer and until you PROVE that the articles are fake and the copy right is also, and that NONE of the essays or books were EVER WRITTEN, it will remain as such. once again, thank you AlexanderLevian 19:30, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, It seems like nobody has a problem with the label of Writer. I was also wondering if everyone was ok with the title "Producer", He did produce several of his own albums (such as his demo/promo albums and also all his main albums except Burzum (album) ). I, however, haven't found a single documentation of any notation done by him, so I admit my mistake about him being a composer and I apologize. It also seems that there's no reason to go ahead a add an entry to his religion section of the article (which I'll do as soon as possible). once again thank AlexanderLevian 01:14, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

No, I still have a problem with that. The only reason I haven't reverted it so far is that I have other things to do in life than make an edit war about some minor details in an article about an occult neo-nazi black metal musician. The purpose of a field for occupation in the infobox on a criminal can hardly be to include everything that person has ever done. The purpose is to give the reader in a few words the occupation of the criminal at the time of the crime so that they can get a rough glimpse of his social situation. If you want, ask someone from the Wikipedia:WikiProject Criminal Biography. For that, "Musician in one-man band Burzum" is fine for Vikernes. And really, is the difference between writing something and being a writer by occupation so hard to get? Zara1709 03:29, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

No. simple enough. He is a writer and musician by profession, his only sources of income are from his book and albums, that's all. He has professed a rejection of theism, ergo he is an atheist. You can lie about his political beliefs all you want (he has already professed himself as not a Nazi or Occultist). you seem to want to over simplify the situation to "He's A Nazi and Nazis can't be writers if they're already something else, they're Nazis", this kind of logic is best for a blog or your own little site to put your nonsensical rants of Occult and Nazi and other uninteresting conspiracy theories that have been going on for who cares how long, not on wikipedia. It's obvious that you either know the facts (in regard to his political beliefs, religion, and occupation) or haven't bothered to update your information, or just don't care (after all, who cares about a "nazi"), I'm reverting the vandalism and the unnessesary comment of "... in one-man band Burzum" as the field is fairly simple (profession: (enter title, not title and brief and ignorant explaination), and also adding an entry to his current religious view. If you feel they're is a problem you can finish discussing it on my [talk page], thank you AlexanderLevian 21:05, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't get this. Why do people on this talk page attribute things I haven't said to me. I never even hinted at something like "He's A Nazi and Nazis can't be writers if they're already something else, they're Nazis". Hey, I have added a quote from "Mein Kampf" to Adolf Hitler's religious beliefs and worked on other Nazi writers. Of course someone like Lanz von Liebenfels was a writer and he also was someone whose political views strogly resembled the Nazism. (He must have written clearly 10000+ pages in books and in his magazine.) But Vikernes does not get an income are from his book. I am going to insists on this unless you bring up a source that proves the opposite. YOU try to find that book in any international library catalogue.

Now, for the occult part. I'm studying religious sciences and since I stumbled about his homepage on the Internet and thought this stuff to be rather IMPORTANT, I thought I write a paper on him. I got a A-. I would have gotten an A if I had not omitted his thesis that 'Jesus was an Aryan':

"The cult of Jesus probably came to be because the person we know as Jesus arrived in Judea/Samara when he was in his early thirties, probably from a European area (as he, if he was initiated, must have been an ethnic European), and while his death and resurrection would have been seen as a common event in Europe, and especially in Thule/Scandinavia, his resurrection was something special in an area populated by mostly non-European people. It was so special to them that it became the origin of a new religion! Another and more cynical theory is that the Romans, who tailor-made Christianity first and foremost as a tool to oppress Europeans, needed to present Jesus as an initiate for the Europeans to take him serious (meaning the story about his resurrection is made up). Another interesting fact is that the highest initiation level in the Pagan cult is that of the druid, that in Norse is called the drótt. Now, we know that Jesus was mocked as I.N.R.I. that is (as far as I remember) short for something like Iesu Nazareni Rex Iedorum ("Jesus the Nazarene, the king of the Jews/Judes [Jutes?]"), so it is a but curious to see that drótt actually translates as "king" in Norse. The word is still in use in its feminine form, in all the modern Scandinavian languages: dronning and drotning translate as "queen". So perhaps Jesus was a king of the Jutes after all?" [8]

Don't call that atheism. Zara1709 13:20, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Varg's Writings

Are any of Vargs works published in English? If so, where can they be found? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.228.248.14 (talk) 21:34, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't know why you would want to read that book. If there is anything more in there than "Christianity is stupid, Nazism/Odalism is great," I would really be surprised. Zara1709 13:33, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Since Zara doesn't want to answer then I will. Not to my knowledge, but I would continue to check (maybe another translation will come out, I believe Varg does speak english) or try to find someone that speaks norsk. Zara, Varg has said that he does not belong to, nor does he support, nazism. Also, I think a book will need more than seven words so you probably will be surprised if that's all you're expecting. In future, try answering the question or not saying anything at all, if the only thing you have to say is "hitlers religious beliefs are..." and "Varg is a nazi/neo-nazi," it does get annoying. AlexanderLevian 21:09, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm somehow regret that sentence, but still I had to write it. Initially I had thought that one could deal with this topic as with any other field of 'intellectual history'. I turned out that I was wrong. Reading Mein Kampf to see if Hitler had any religious beliefs has as corroding effect on one's view of mankind. I still don't get why anyone would want to read this kind of writings. 'Vikernes does not say that "does not belong to, nor does he support, nazism." He says:

"What makes me different from the "nazis" are basically three things; unlike them I am not socialistic (not even on a national level), I am not materialistic and I believe in (the ancient Scandinavian!) democracy. So, since I am not a "nazi" I began to use another term, in the late 90ies."

And just two lines above that the text says:

"The reason I have been drawn to and occasionally have expressed support for "nazism" is mainly because many of the Norwegian (and German) "nazis" embraced our Pagan religion as our blood-religion and they rejected Judeo-Christianity as Jewish heresy" (both quotes [9])

He can use the term 'Odalism' all he wants, that doesn't change the fact that his views are damn close to Nazism. I am not going to specify how close exactly, since I don't know that myself. But if I ever get my hands on a copy of The Myth of the Twentieth Century, I could tell you more. (Usually you don't get such abook from a public library.) I could bet that the quote "Europe is not a geographical, but a biological term." [10] is taken from that book. That is, if I have the nerve to read yet another nazi occult propaganda tract. Zara1709 09:24, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Im interested in reading about Norsk religion from Vargs point of view. Though I hate that hes has to make a racial issue out of it, I think he is knowledgeable on the sunject of Germanic pagan religions, and the mystic accent he puts on it is worthwhile. I can filter out the garbage for myself. Some of his essays and other writings are downloadable on the website, but as far as Vargsmal, I hope I can find a copy in German or English somewhere... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.228.248.14 (talk) 21:41, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

UNRELATED: Does anybody know if the title is inspired by Old Norse poems like Grímnismál (what I assumed) or is the "-smal" suffix common in Norwegian?P4k 22:27, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

It is. -smal is essentially "story of..." or "song of...". something along those lines, so its kind of like words or story of Varg. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.228.248.14 (talk) 02:10, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks.P4k 23:24, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Rebecca?

Whats the source on him having a daughter? AFAIK, he never had one in his youth, and there aren't many fertile women in prison.SAlpsu 01:25, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Not a reliable source I guess but he talks about his daughter here, so she probably does exist.P4k 01:40, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Article has been cited as a source

How do you tag an article when it has been cited as a source by a media outlet? This one was cited here. LuciferMorgan 11:57, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Satanist after all?

It is hard to determine if Varg was/is a pagan/satanist/atheist. First of all, there are good reasons to say that Vikernes IS NOT satanist (acording with his declarations, none of his friends was) but he used that term during 1992 (to "look evil" -?!/). According to Fernandez Buey "acting as the others is being like them".So, what make you different from satanists if you hate Christianity, sing using hymns to Satan (even when "Satan" is a symbol of paganism or whatever)? Secondly, the article "religion or reason?" has a positive view of asians (while in others asians are despised (if someone remember which, thanks). Also, he declares that atheists are fools (therefor, where is the atheist Varg?). Is he really writting that?. Perhaps the true Varg is almost totally disconected (or is a liar hidding -at least in part- his true opinions). No source for proving that, of course. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.143.4.23 (talk) 03:52, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

He praises Eastern Asians (i.e. Japanese, Korean & Chinese) for being intelligent peoples that are prominent scientists. He dislikes the "Asian religions", such as Christianity, for their ignorance, as far as I can tell. Don't read into his statements as being "contradictory" or him as being "totally disconnected". I think "unspecific" would be adequate at times however.

I have never seen him write that Atheists are fools. It seems a lot of people who attempt to write this article know little about the subject they are writing about and really don't care to do any research beyond reading Lords of Chaos (which has been disputed much). How about a section on the books he has written? How about actually reading all the material presented by him on his website? No, let's just write about the early years of his life and start more rumors about the man. He is in prison remember, which is not a very stable place to be, so a little confusion on his part can be expected.

Also, change the damn picture! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.82.91.105 (talk) 20:47, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Varg's Birthday

It's now the 11th. Somebody change the age in the parentheses next to his birthday to 35...? I don't know how to do that. 74.173.84.148 (talk) 05:26, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Current age is included via template, see Template:Birth date and age/doc and Wikipedia:Age calculation templates. – viciarg ᚨ 08:13, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Varg's review of LOTR films

Anybody know if he's seen them, put his opinion to papr somewhere, got a source/link? That would be an interesting read. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.16.43.228 (talk) 03:56, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Varg mentions the films in this article: http://www.burzum.org/eng/library/a_burzum_story01.shtml That's it. —Aboleth (talk) 12:10, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

vargsmal

OK i have added something about vargsmal, i hope some of you expand it.

Scumbag

I added the fact that he was a scumbag but someone removed it.Does anybody dispute this?

Yes, unless you can prove otherwise (not Mayhem fanboy/girl-ing) --XdiabolicalX 14:17, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

he is a scumbag because he is a neo-nazi who burned down churches and killed a man for which he has never shown remorse.

Quite possibly but Wikipedia is not the place for that.--XdiabolicalX 20:20, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course Vikernes is a scumbag. But Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and an encyclopdia must have neutral point of view, and thus using such loaded, POV language is innapropriate for an encyclopedia article. Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view 4.156.24.192 20:15, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I dispute this. I don't think he is a scum bag at all

You dispute someone's opinion? Because there is nothing in the article about it. I think he is a mis guided young man. & sign comments. XdiabolicalX 19:34, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not a member of the wikipedia family do I'll sign anonymous. Someone added that Varg was a scum bag and asked if anyone disputes this. I replied that I dispute it. - Anonymous

If you actually believe that Varg is a neo-Nazi, then you don't know the first thing about him nor about the nature and evolution of the Black Metal scene in the mid 90s. Do your research before you open your mouth on such a subject. It is so easy to randomly throw either the race card or the nazi card around and expect people to not say anything in fear of being accused of support of such ideologies, but some of us have a spine fortunately. Your ignorance, weak liberal views and your socially engineered beliefs are laughable. Climb into a hole and rot away. As for the article I will attempt to get it changed so that it properly displays his ideaology rather than being the victim of baseless name calling. - -Reaper-

• Snicker*. While I agree that calling somebody a scumbag does not belong in Wikipedia, and that the poster you are responding to wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed, your post granted me more laughter due to the lack of irony. Varg Vikernes isn't some visionary with a spine--he's a coward without a brain. Judging by your comments, you are probably the type that cherishes being an outsider and enjoys the stigma that comes with it, rather than being someone who does so because he truly believes so. I'll wager you probably believe Varg killed Euronymous in self-defense too! :)--97.100.7.33 23:36, 8 November 2007 (UTC)SlayerRob

Ok then what constitutes a scumbag? how many more people does he have to kill based upon his own twisted demoraled views? 4? 6? 6 million? You really do need some psychological help. 218.101.64.45 17:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Whatever anyones opinion is, be it he is a scumbag, he is a neo-nazi, he is a blah-blah, WIKIPEDIA serves the anonymous in a NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW WAY. Everyone can have their own opinions, but not on Wikipedia articles, how hard is it to understand that? no reason in debating whether or not he's this or that, Wiki is neutral and no one can insert an opinion. That's why it's an encyclopedia, there is no bias on these articles. Please, remember that. - Anonymous wiki user, 3/30/07

He is a twat, though. Killed a man, and destroyed ancient churches (that, whether you agree with the philosophy behind them or not) took years of work from dedicated craftsmen to make? Seems like a spoiled child to me. I wonder if his music will be remembered in a few hundred year's time, given that he destroyed the work of hundreds of craftsmen in a few acts of arson. Let's not forget, he also killed someone. I must admit, I've never heard any of his music, but he's already an arsehole in my opinion. Will he ever produce anything more significant than what he's already robbed the world of?

Varg is a rare gem in the evolutionary pool, a real visionary with true grit. I do not agree with his social & political manifesto (being an anarchist myself) but at least the guy is funny and original. Anyone who has the balls to burn down all these churches, fill his house up with dynamite, lead the media to a frenzy of ridiculous/inaccurate/yellow journalism then also find the time to kill a fellow black metaller over sales money from such albums as 'aske' (you have to see the irony here) needs to be given more credit i think. Varg should dedicate himself to the Goddess and be done with it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.245.48.21 (talk) 10:54, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism

Looks like Varg's also a target for vandalism - I just removed references to his belief in unholy gnome armies and Varg's being a Celine Dion fan. I notice that before this he was rumored to be starting a project with Glen Benton and David Hasslehoff. 144.135.138.156 13:35, 26 August 2006 (EST)

I wish people would also stop putting Fascism Fascism Fascism in because Varg makes little or even no references to Fascism in his books or whatever else. Since no one can call him Nazi anymore, it seems like they're branding him with this. Fascism originated in Italy and it seems to be a political ideology putting race above culture with little connonations to Scandinavian or Germanic culture, no matter what the Nazis did. Varg even said he believed in a form of Norse democracy which is completely the opposite of autocratic fascism.

Removing "nazi views". according to www.burzum.org : "What makes me different from the "nazis" are basically three things; unlike them I am not socialistic (not even on a national level), I am not materialistic and I believe in (the ancient Scandinavian!) democracy. So, since I am not a "nazi" I began to use another term, in the late 90ies" Marxmax 17:20, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

The nazis (National "Socialists") were not, in truth, socialists but conservative state capitalists. It is flawed to accept the party's misappropriation of the humanist political philosophy as gospel. Ideals central to socialist thought were not only neglected but in direct contrast to nazi objectives. Vikernes isn't the brightest crayon in the box and I don't suspect he has ever read or understood Marx. His attempt to argue that an opposition to socialism means one cannot be nazi-sympathetic demonstrates his "intelligence".

Read "Lords of Chaos", the scumbag is pro-Aryan, pro-Hitler, pro-Quisling, and pro-National Socialism. Pretty much makes him a Nazi whether he says he is or not. It's not like he hasn't made up complete lies before. 65.78.18.16 (talk) 07:09, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

"Full name"

Though the Norwegian government may legally have the name for him as he originally changed it without middle names, it is notable that he himself has called himself Varg Qisling (or Kvisling, a family name of his related to the Quisling name which he has claimed means "from a noble linage", he went back & forth between "Q" & "Kv" I think because he once argued that "Q" was not a foreign character but an ancient rune at one point, maybe prompting this.) Buré (or Buri; his mother's maiden name and a figure from Norse creation folklore) Larssøn (I assume another family name, maybe his father is Lars, a traditional Nordic naming convention "Son of Lars".) Vikernes. 67.5.157.125 (talk) 11:23, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

NPOV

This article focuses entirely too much on criminal charges and his early life, as well as attempts to pinpoint as many charges of "neo-Nazism" on him as possible (I think one or two [with proper source, not "he is mostly seen as" or "he is often associated with" nonsense] should suffice in the political area). To focus on whether or not his is a (neo-)Nazi, despite his outright rebuttal of this, for a paragraph and section, and then to not even mention once that he is environmentalist or anti-Capatalist/materialist (which would be positive to most people on here I think!) is not balanced. To only focus on controversy is unbalanced.

"Additionally, having been attached to a conspiracy of church arsons in Europe, filmmaker Sam Dunn (Metal: A Headbanger's Journey) has described Vikernes as "the most notorious metal musician of all time"[2]." does not fit in the opener. It is not really important, and should belong in "Publicity" section. It also does not even relate to its paragraphs topic sentence!

The picture is not recent, but is instead from the criminal trial.

Overuse of Lords of Chaos as a source. Just because it is a published work does not make it fact. So, if its use is necessary, I would suggest adding "according to" or something of this nature. I realize this has been done at some of the times, but not all. I also think that including a couple of Vikernes' complaints with LOC would help even it out, as well as checking if LOC clashes with anything Vikernes has said, and then stating these as source conflicting.

Very little on his writing. Seeing as that is his sole output as of now, I think this needs more focus. There is an entire page on Burzum, with the releases and such, but nothing referring to bibliography or essays. Yes, Burzum may be more well known than his writing (or not, I don't know/care), but I don't think how well something is known has anything to do with its presence in an article (after all, Wikipedia is here to allow others to learn things they did not known, IN BALANCE).

In short, the problem I see with the POV is that there is plenty of information about "Varg the Criminal" & "Varg the Musician", but nothing about "Varg the Academic", as well as the focus on politics, which tends to appear as people simply trying to prove to the reader he is in fact a Nazi, but is hiding it. If this was not the objective, there would be more focus on his other -isms I think. Alphaknave (talk) 18:56, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Apparently, once every few months someone comes along and disagrees with this article. The last time someone was of the opinion that Vikernes was a writer, and now he is even supposed to be an academic. As far as I know he doesn't even have the Norwegian equivalent of a college degree. This doesn't mean that he is uneducated. He writes fluent English, knows enough Latin to add some Latin quotes, which might actually impress some people, and probably he even speaks German and/or Russian. But - to be an academic, you need a little more than that. For the academic perspective, consider this; Vikernes writes:

"In the Scandinavian mythology we learn that the first human race was created when the gods gave the worms in the body of the giant a human form. The gods were not satisfied with this race, though, and Óðinn told Heimdallr to go to Middle Earth and improve mankind, by giving them the blood of the gods. He used the name Rígr ("ruler") and the first improved race was called the kin of Trell ("thrall"), and was made up of ugly and stupid black men, with dark hair and wrinkled skin. Óðinn was not satisfied with the result, and Heimdallr had to keep trying, to get a race worthy of Valhalla. After another failed attempt, the kin of Karl ("free men"), he finally succeeded in creating a human race worthy of Valhalla. This was the beautiful kin of Jarl ("earl"). This kin consisted of tall and fair men and women, with fair hair and fair eyes. They were wise and skilled in everything they did, and Rígr taught them the runes (secrets) of the gods. The creation of the youngest of these kins, Jarl's kin, took place on an island we today know as Atlantis." [11]

Read the Edda! You will not find Atlantis mentioned there, nor elsewhere in the few original sources on "Scandinavian mythology". This is rather the typical occultist speculation about Lost lands, calling this 'academic' would be like referring to Madame Blavatsky as a historian. And for the question why the racist interpretation of the Rigsthula, done by Vikernes here, is wrong - try to read a commented version of the Edda! I am going to remove the neutrality-questioned-tag and add the quote about the "nazi ghost" back in, rewriting those sentences only a little. I you still want to disagree and think that the contents of www.burzum.org should be covered here, I suppose I have to put up a Requests for comment: Is the racist-occult speculation of Varg Vikernes notable in Wikipedia?

And also, concerning the question if Vikernes qualifies as a 'writer'. Elsewhere on Wikipedia, a personal homepage and one (or even several) self-published books would not be sufficient for that. The only reason why I have been soft on this question is that the whole topic is rather unpleasant and I didn't want to spend more time on it. Debunking extreme right ideology is not fun, and there would be really nicer things to do. On the other hand, though, someone has to do it... Zara1709 (talk) 13:19, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

You act as if this is your article, and not the subject's. I think we need more opinion than solely yours before the NPOV can be removed. As far as I know, you are not an administrator of Wikipedia and have no more authority on its contents than I or anyone else does. It is because you spend more time on here "[d]ebunking extreme right ideology" than anything else, that this article has a focus on "Nazi" matters than anything else, creating an unbalanced view of the subject, and a bias in the tone of writing. You are certainly not some expert on the subject, and are not the one who decides such matters. This should be a group effort. DON'T REMOVE THE NPOV AGAIN UNTIL OTHERS HAVE INPUT ON MY OPINIONS AS WELL. Jeeze, if I didn't know better (do I?) I'd think you were a Nazi, or some kind of corrupt politician, trying to funnel information the way you want.

Your argument on whether or not Mr. Vikernes is an acknowledged academic is against nothing. I never claimed he was one, nor will try to argue this point here ("writer" is suitable--he does write). I was using "Varg the Academic" in a so-to-speak tone. Whether or not people consider his writing accurate or not does change the fact that he has written them and that they should be listed as bibliography on here as well as given equal weight to all of his other output (i.e. music & activism/crime). To whether or not some of his claims are true in his writings, I am not making an argument, because this body of people obviously does not have proficient resources to make these claims (but if you read more, research more, old books and new, I think you will find that his information does connect--the problem you have is that he does not provide sources where you can easily research his claims). [On a side note: Do you speak Old Norse (or Norwegian or Icelandic, both very close to Old Norse)? This is very important when doing any interpretation of the Edda, since the translation can make all the difference. Have you ever considered interpreting the Edda on your own, with an open mind, and attempting a translation yourself? You should not need to rely on someone else's commentary. These commentaries will obviously not suggest racist things or the like, since the authors themselves will be looked upon as "Nazi occultists" just as Mr. Vikernes has been pinned down as. Looking at etymology the words in question are very important as well. But once again, this is only a side note, as the question to whether or not Mr. Vikernes' writing are indeed "true" (or following what you want to be true in this case) does not matter. His ideas can always be stated as "Mr. Vikernes writes..." or "According to Mr. Vikernes..." much in the same way this has been (partially) done with Lord of Chaos.] On the fact that Mr. Vikernes has not obtained a university degree on the material he writes on does not matter, as, once again, I was not claiming he is an academic, but only that he has written (appearantly controversial [this does not mean false]) things that need to be given equal weight in an article about him.

The first of my previously stated arguments seems to be fixed for the most obvious parts. Thank you. However, I am going to remove the first sentence of "Political Affiliation", as I see it as clear weasel wording. Focus still remains on his "Nazi" ideas however, even if you did include a bit more on others.

The second of my previously stated arguments (paragraph two) remained, but I moved it.

The third of my previously stated arguments (paragraph two) remains. I don't know what pictures are copyrighted or aren't, but I know the most recent of him are copyrighted to Audrey Ewell and Aaron Aites. So, to solve this problem, I have removed the picture entirely, until someone wishes to place a recent picture with all of Wikipedia's rules followed.

NPOV dispute remains until others discuss it, however long that takes. This page is the first result for Varg Vikernes in a Google search, and it is very important that it is accurate and balanced. Please allow others to discuss the situation, Zara1709. If you remove it again before my arguments are resolved, I will only place it back once again.Alphaknave (talk) 20:57, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

For someone who wants to insist on doing thinks by policy you display a remarkable lack of knowledge on Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines. 1) Administrators don't have more power on the content of article then the standard user, they only have access to more technical features. In exchange the are required to be more wp:civil, which is the reason why I would never apply for adminship. If you want a comment from an admin, just say so, then I should be able to get one over here in no- time.

2) Whether a picture is copyrighted or not does not make a difference, when it is used under fair use. See: Wikipedia:Non-free content. This is debated on the image page. If you had checked that page, you would have known that this picture, that we use under Fair Use is copyrighted to a Norwegian TV station and not to "Audrey Ewell" or "Aaron Aites", whoever they are. Of course we could theoretically replace this image with a not-copyrighted one. We just need a volunteer for taking a picture of a convinced murderer.

3a) Vikernes notability as writer; Wikipedia:Notability: "A topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject." There are currently no reliable sources that even confirm that the contents of www.burzum.org were indeed written by Vikernes. No reliable sources -> not notable. But whereas www.burzum.com has not been noted at all by reliable sources (webforums don't count), Lords of Chaos has been used as source by Matthias Gardell and Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke, actual academics who have written books on the topic. This is kind of a pity, because I suppose that Goodrick-Clarke would have come to a different conclusion if he had known the occultist stuff on www.burzum.com.

3b)Since there are not reliable sources that refer to www.burzum.com, you can't come along an demand the inclusion of the contents of www.burzum.com into the article according to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view: "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly and, as much as possible, without bias all significant views (that have been published by reliable sources)." But a popular documentary on Heavy Metal is a reliable source, and deserves enough weight in the article to be used as reference at the top of it. It is not biased to mention in the tagline that he has been described as "the most notorious metal musician of all time", since most people will know him as that. Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies) suggests that the opening paragraph of an biography should give why "Why the person is significant", and Vikernes is clearly significant as a criminal and a metal musician, and not as a writer.

That should be enough for now. I am going to revert some of your edits ( I don't care whether we say verbatim that he " has been commonly labeled a Neo-Nazi," since the details of this are included anyway.) I could continue to explain the difference between an academic and an occultist later, if that is necessary, but I suppose you wouldn't understand it anyway. There is no need to treat the Edda like the Bible. It's not a Holy Book - except for some neopagans - but a collection of poems. Zara1709 (talk) 12:25, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I got to take a little think back here. As I've heard recently, Atlantis is mentioned in the Edda, albeit only in the later Prose Edda. The earlier Poetic Edda does not include such a reference. At least that explains where Herman Wirth and others got the wild idea of Atlantis from. Of course, this doesn't change anything. Unless you want to belief that Odin and Atlantis stuff anyway, it far more likely that Snorri Sturluson just picked up some rumours about the Greek Atlantis here. Anyway, I will check what the Edda actually says in Lost continents if I ever find the time for it: But you don't need to be a Scandinavicist to see that something is wrong with such a statement:

"Well, I wouldn't use the term "Hyperboreans", but I guess that is irrelevant. Obviously I cannot say for sure, but it seems the Hyperboreans, to stick to Your term, came from Atlantis to Europe, when Atlantis was covered with ice, some 80.000 years ago. The ruins of Atlantis most likely lie under the ice of Antarctica (thus it sank into "a sea" of ice), and a natural disaster forced the Hyperboreans to move to other parts of the world (it must be a misprint, because Hyperborea was in the Arctic - ed.). Some places they settled in uninhabited lands, and some places they settled in parts of the world that were inhabited by other races. Some tribes were assimilated by larger populations of other races (like in America, some 10.000-20.000 years ago), others perished, and the only tribe that survived "unpolluted" was the one that ended up in Europe. This tribe is the origin of all the European (that is "white") peoples - and this is of course the tribe I am talking about when I say we all had the same language and religion in the past. " [12]

No matter whether you call them Hyperboreans or Atlanteans, there was no ancient tribe living 80000 years ago on some fancy lost continent before that one was deluged (or covered with ice in this case) and they migrated through the world to ultimately form the 'white' people, aside from those who were 'polluted' by interbreeding. I could now go on and argue that such nonsense is not even Neopaganism, but the racist-gnostic dualism of Ariosophy, but that is beside the point. After all, we don't have any source at all that would make the 'writings' of Vikernes on his homepage notable, not even your usual occultist webforum. This also goes for his 'interpretation' of Lords of the Rings, so I think I will shorten that passage when I get to rewrite the article, and that should be later today or sometime in the next week. I guess I start by removing the neutrality-tag. Zara1709 (talk) 04:30, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'd suggest saying, "it far more likely that Snorri Sturluson just picked up some rumours about the Greek Atlantis here" to be more nonsensical than the idea that the Greeks and Germanics both had a legendary concept of "Atlantis", considering all European religions and societies share many attributes, despite being totally isolated from one another for the most part. (I mean, you think this is less likely than an Icelandic man in the 13th century randomly picking unique Greek legends and shoving them into his accounts of Germanic sagas for the hell of it? Geographically, they are very much separated, and I don't think he would have even been aware of this, let alone falsify his accounts of his own people's history. For that sake, we can assume all he writes is irrelevant, considering he might have spiced up his work with bits of other peoples tales and myths.)

Either way, I believe Vikernes was trying to give a theory concerning the legend's origin, as he did say, "Obviously I cannot say for sure...", since he assumed everyone knew he was merely speculating and trying to put pieces together from many sources. (Seems he often forgets to include that what he is saying is a hypothesis, on Internet published articles; luckily, his writing is more secure in his books (from what I've seen he actually uses citations :0 )). If Sturluson is to believed (and even if he isn't; Varg usually writes from a pan-European perspective), the legend of Atlantis was very much a part of the legends/mythology/tales (whatever you want to call them) of the Germanic peoples, and so an explanation of where the tale might have originated is certainly relevant to (neo-Germanic) Paganism. I think you misunderstand Vikernes' statement as a claim that there was a separate continent, somehow exempt from the geological history of plate tectonics. He was referring to the covering of Scandinavia by ice & glaciers (linking this to the "sinking" described in the Atlantis tale (such a detail can be lost after so long)) during the last glacial period ("...along the coast of Ultima Thule, ancient Norway..." from "Paganism: Part IX - The Ancient Democracy"; "Thule (Atlantis)" from "Paganism: Part XIII - Pagan Love"). Where do you think Norway's fjords came from! On another topic, I was watching a History Channel show that told of Europeans in the Americas at around the time he said, so I don't know how you missed this (that is, if you dispute this part of his theory), considering it was on TV!

I will not waste my breath of these subjects anymore (takes time from my own research, which I hope every Pagan does in their spare time), but I hope you stick to telling facts ABOUT VIKERNES (for example: He wrote these books: 1997 - Vargsmål, 2000 - Germansk Mytologi Og Verdensanskuelse, 2001 - Guide To The Norse Gods And Their Names, 2002 - Irminsûl, etc--is therefore a "writer", just as much as Tolkien or J. K. Roweling are writers, and needs a bibliography section just as those writers have), instead of trying to "safeguard" neo-Paganism (a goal which you have made painfully clear). This is a biography, not a neo-Pagan information contest or Nazi protest zone or what have you. (Really... your Nazi-phobic phrases really get annoying after a while; how about some explanation on your claims that this topic of trying to finally explain Europeans' origins and similarities both language-wise and culturally, when so many did not communicate enough to transfer such similarities, is nothing but "the racist-gnostic dualism of Ariosophy"...) Remove the balanced tag; I just hope people don't take this article too seriously and go read about the man and what he writes on your own, free from prejudgment on burzum.org. That's all from me; I think I've put up a good fight.

P.S. I apologize if you or anyone find my sentences too long, too parenthesis-overburdened, or confusing, but I promise they all make sense. :)

Alphaknave (talk) 07:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

But I am sticking to the facts here: If the Edda was indeed written by people who once dwelled in Atlantis, wouldn't you then find a reference to Atlantis also in the older Edda and not only in the younger? Besides from that - wouldn't someone not have found the sunken continent using sonar in the meantime? And you develop obscure theories about a race going back 80'000 years, it doesn't matter id you add an "Obviously I cannot say for sure..." for good measure. Furthermore, you haven't read the Edda yourself, really, otherwise you would have already brought the whole argument "but Atlantis is mentioned in the Edda" earlier, wouldn't you. You wouldn't have needed to wait for me conceding that point. And I will even have to concede the that Vikernes is a writer, after all. Of course, wheras the Lord of the Rings, e.g., is literature, Vikerenes' writings are ideology, or, if you'd prefer the term, racist myths. And of course people are free to go to www.burzum.org to look for themselves. They will find passages like this:

"The unhealthy children, the sick children, the weak or otherwise not ideal children were set out in the forest to be eaten by wolves. They didn't do this because they were poor, but because their natural religion dictated this.

And this is where the modern "Pagans" realizes that they perhaps are not "Pagans" after all, because they think this is a cruel custom. However, that is the Pagan philosophy of life: only let the healthy, the strong and even only the moral, the good and beautiful survive. Only Christians appreciates degenerated children, genetically defective creatures that should not be allowed to survive, grow up and reproduce in the first place, and by doing that destroy our genetic properties in the long run. Only Christians think quantity rather than quality. Only Christians think it is terrible to kill one individual rather than let this one individual infest a whole community with his or her (genetic) poison."

According to Vikernes, only an eugenic and racist pagan is a real pagan. I think that this is obvious from his 'writings'. Similar to all the other Neopagan movements, Vikernes claims that he is rediscovering an ancient religion, but unlike the Wiccans, etc.. Vikernes ancient religion is racist. Zara1709 (talk) 00:12, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Release

So, it's April 2008 - has he been released? 85.166.252.197 (talk) 12:45, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

googling, there seem to be rumours that he has, but no quotable confirmation.[13] I suppose it is likely he has been, since there would likely have been noise if parole had been postponed once more. dab (𒁳) 09:17, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Latest news says that vargs parole was denied. http://www.burzum.org/eng/news.shtml —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.174.65.248 (talk) 08:25, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

under the section about his release it states that "He was eligible for parole in April, 2008 but it is still unknown (to the public) whether he was released or not."

later on in the "escape attempts and expected release" section, it states "Varg Vikernes was denied parole again in June 2008, although he is allowed to leave Tromsø Prison for a short period of time to visit his family, including two children. He also owns a farm in Telemark, Norway" according to my knowledge of the Gregorian calendar: June is after april, so is the first sentence required anymore? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.193.187.76 (talk) 12:03, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Iraq, etc.

Yes, this is actually taken from the interview in LoC. The full quote is: "You grew up in the middle east?" - "Iraq, in Baghad. I went to school there for one year. My father was working for Saddam Hussein! They were developing a computer program to control the economy of Iraq." So just that you don't think this is fake. If you don't belief it, you'd only have to take a look at LoC yourself. Zara1709 (talk) 16:05, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I went ahead and re-stated the material without the strong objectivity. I suggest adding a secondary reference to back up the Iraq/Racism bit. See WP:BLP. --  ShadowJester07  ►Talk  12:51, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

This is not a case for WP:BLP! All the words in ""s are actualy quotes from Vikernes or his mother as they are printed in Lords of Chaos. Vikernes has made strong attacks on the book in his review of it, but he does not deny that he has given the interview. [14] If he would like to deny that, he can always sue Feral House, that has published the book. I am very well able to evaluate the reliability of sources and I am trying to write a biography here. One thing important in a biography his the occupation of the parents of the person. It took me quite some effort to figure out who professions they had, and you are completely destroying the content if you change that to: "In the book, Vikernes reveals that both his mother and father had professional occupations during his childhood."... If you are concerned about this, drop a notice at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. Zara1709 (talk) 14:03, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

It seems rather one-sided just to use information from one source, especially since there is not guarantee that the information is 100% accurate – Even if it came from the mouth of Varg himself, there’s no guarantee that he was being sincere. While the source itself is reliable, other references should be used to back up the material. For example, The section claims “Varg’s father was working for Saddam Hussein! They were developing a computer program to control the economy of Iraq.", and states in a prose that insinuates the quote is actual fact. Unless there is a reliable source that actually verifies this, it’s merely one of Vikernes’ quotes. Should we state Vikernes interpretation of the events of Aarseth’s murder in the same way? If so, why didn’t the Norwegian court system see it that way? Thus, this article should use Varg’s quotes as references, but instead document what he said in its given context. This does not seem like a matter of BLP, it just seems like a general problem. --  ShadowJester07  ►Talk  15:24, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

So it is theoretically possible that Vikernes has made up the stuff about the Nazi flag... But is there any reason why he should have done this? Of course, if you find a source that definitely says that there is no evidence of Vikernes expressing an admiration of Nazism (or better: of swastikas) before his imprisonment, then we would have to add both sources to the article. If you are concerned about this statement taken out of context, I can add half a sentence on that. And obviously, there have to some sentences 'in prose'. I can't just copy LoC, because that would constitute a copyright violation, apart from the point that a prose text with in-line quotes looks better. And, as you can see from the current article, both Vikernes and his mother confirm that he went to an Iraqi primary school for a year.Zara1709 (talk) 15:47, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Just to take the concerns into account: In LoC 1998 (p.146) Vikernes is first asked "When did you interest in World War II Germany begin?" Vikernes replies among other that he was a skinhead when he was 15 or 16; this is not yet added to the article. Then Moynihan asks: "How does you mother feel about you racial views?" Vikernes reply ("my mother was actually afraid that I was going to come home with a black girl! She is very race concious." is already included in the article, he says a little more, but this is not really relevant, aside from "She could just as well be my friend instead of my mother," what I have taken to indicate a positive relation. Then Vikernes is asked: "How about your father?" Vikernes replies that he has "little contact." "They're divorced." "He was in the Navy." Then comes the stuff about the swastika flag, the the comments that hs mother was in business and very efficient. The next question is "You grew up in the middle east?", for that one, see above. Zara1709 (talk) 16:04, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

In that case, I would then recommend having an experienced editor look at the section, just for brief copy-edit. IMO, it's all little too quote heavy :p. I'm not going to deny the allegations that Vikernes may have been a Nazi at one point in time based on various articles of evidence, but this article should not blatantly state that his time in Iraq caused him to bcome 'race conscious'. It would be more appropriate (per WP:NPOV) to say "According to an interview in Loc, Vikernes claims...", only for the sake this article could always use another view.  ShadowJester07  ►Talk  16:35, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I admit, I don't have nearly 13000 mainspace edits, but I've already got over 3000... No, seriously, I actually used quotes that extensively because I wanted to be as close to the source as possible. And that his what the source says: "When did you become aware of racial matters?" - "When I was six years old I had a quarrel with a teacher, and I though 'You monkey!' I called the teacher a monkey in Iraqi elementary school. Of course, normally they'd hit the children right then and there, but they didn't dare to hit me because I was white." Since you have brought this up, I can replace 'primary school ' with 'elementary school' and remove the 'first'. Zara1709 (talk) 16:54, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I would recommend reading the styles of of a featured article, and attempt to emulate their style of writing. Quotes are fine, but when you introduce too many, then who is really writing the article? Also, the section in its current state introduces somewhat of a contradiction: Vikernes is married and has a fifteen-year old daughter (born 1993) and a son (born 2007).[9] According to an interview made in 2004, he said he was not married and there was no mention of a son (naturally).[10] If both sources are accurate, this implies he was married sometime after 2004 and before or in 2008. - the section first implies that the first source is not accurate, then attempts to state that both are possibly accurate. --  ShadowJester07  ►Talk  14:14, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, the 2nd sentence about the marriage was added User:Alphaknave [15], with whom I have a disagreement about this article anyway. If we have any featured article about an extremist like Vikernes, please let me know. Also, feel free to search for any more sources about him. Zara1709 (talk) 14:49, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I cannot find an FA status article for an extremest, unless you consider the former-FA, Che Guevara. Here's a FA for a musician, Maynard James Keenan. Here is also an article from blabbermouth, containing a letter from Varg's mother, and statement that claims he is married w/ two kids.[16]; here is an article that compares Varg to Charlie Manson.[17] I'll keep looking. --  ShadowJester07  ►Talk  13:53, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Reading the material on burzum.org again I found better information on Vikernes family. The reason I asked whether we have a featured article about an extremist like Vikernes is - obviously - that people tend to be shocked by when they read about someone having a Swastika flag at home, etc. On the other hand, you cannot want to leave this information out, because that would amount to whitewashing. Especially in these cases of extremist/musicians. From the discussion on this talk page, there seem to be people who know Vikernes for his music and don't think that he is a racist. Well, sorry, read the homepage, he explicitly says that he is a racist. And then you have the interview in LoC where he says that his racism goes back to the incident in Iraq. You can't leave this stuff out, because this one of the explanations that have been brought forward for his later crimes, although SrM (and also LoC, which has this abstruse Wotanism thesis) hold that Vikernes moved to the extreme right only after the crimes. This is the point that Kevin Coogan makes in the review of Lords of Chaos that is reprinted on that wep page:

But should Odin take the rap for Vikernes' "Viking ethics"? LOC offers strong evidence that Vikernes, who came from a divorced family and was raised by his mother Lene Bore, was a fascist well before he became a metalhead. Vikernes reports that his mother "was actually afraid that I was going to come home with a black girl! She's very race-conscious...She could just as well be my friend as she is my mother."[18]

Actually this article is the only one to describe the ideological content of Lords of Chaos, and for this reason it also includes so much about things that aren't directly related to this, like Evola and industrial music. Coogans needs to put Moynihan's interpretation of the events in Norway into a larger context, so that it becomes somehow clear what he means if he classifies this as "counter-cultural fascism". But instead of just quoting Coogan to the extend that Vikernes comes from a political right family background, I though that it would be appropriate to give the actual lines from LoC. Hopefully I will be able to expand this article further, so that it actually discusses all 4 or 5 explanations why Vikernes murdered Euronymous... Zara1709 (talk) 17:24, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Alright, Zara1709, just stop writing. We aren't questioning your ability to copy quotes from a book, what we're questioning is the accuracy of the book itself. I STRONGLY suggest you get your information from Varg's official website, rather than the book Lords Of Chaos. I don't want to personally attack you, but you've gone too far.

Varg himself has written a review of Lords of Chaos, and this is just part of his introduction:

I dare say the vast majority of all the statements made in this book are either misinterpretations; taken out of context; misunderstandings; malicious lies made by enemies; a result of ignorance; extreme exaggerations; and/or third-hand information at best. This includes the statements attributed to me!

Now what do you think about the factual accuracy of your stupid little book?!

Varg's LoC review can be found HERE and although its lengthy, in your case its well worth reading.

With regards to why Varg killed Euronymous read THIS. Everyone should read this set of articles before they decide to write on this page.

Attempting to "discuss all 4 or 5 explanations why Vikernes murdered Euronymous" when Varg has written an article with the ONE (single) true explanation in it is ridiculous, and would be pure speculation.

Now, ask yourself this question - who should you trust more when it comes to information about Varg Vikernes? A book written by a self-proclaimed Norwegian-American and his idiot sidekick, or the actual Varg Vikernes himself? Temple-of-Monkeys (talk) 09:00, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Can someone clear this up?

"Vikernes was additionally found guilty in several cases of arson, one of which included Jørn Tunsberg of black metal band Hades Almighty." As I don't know what went on can someone state how this act of arson was connected to Tunsberg, as I very much doubt Tunsberg himself was set ablaze. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.219.92.189 (talk) 11:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Very funny. Temple-of-Monkeys (talk) 09:04, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Varg and NSBM

For the record, Varg was not a key organiser of NSBM and that site is false. From a semi-recent interview.

In the recent years there has been a great raise of so called NSBM (National Socialistic Black Metal) bands which base their ideology and music upon NS, Nazi, Pagan/Heathen and Aryan ideas. What is Your opinion about them?

I don't know much about this, but what I do know is that at least these guys have the guts to be different and politically incorrect, unlike the spineless poser-bands in the "Black Metal" scene. At least NSBM has a point other than the brain-dead "sex, drugs & rock'n'roll" attitude in the rest of the metal scene.

http://www.burzum.org/eng/library/interview01.shtml

Also, I don't think he was responsible for the formation of the Swedish Heathen Front.

→saying that someone doing something stupid is to have "guts" is just like praising a murderer by having done something different than the brain-dead mass. 200.222.3.3 (talk) 16:28, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

It's just your opinion that NSBM is "someone doing something stupid". The bands Varg refers to may be Nazi, Pagan, Aryan and politically incorrect, but his point is that they still have guts to be different no matter what people (more specifically, people like YOU) think about them. You should recognise that, but it seems that you can't. You can't even recognise when you're using poor grammar and capitalization... Also, I don't think anybody at all praises Varg Vikernes for being a murderer. They praise him for the music he made in Burzum.

Varg didn't start any of the Scandinavian Heathen Fronts although the media and the Norwegian intelligence service thinks so. He was at one point associated with the Norwegian Heathen Front but he stopped this when the media thought that he was the leader. Temple-of-Monkeys (talk) 09:45, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Lords of Chaos, etc.

I was busy with other topics in the meantime, but now, when I am probably going back to this one, there are some things I just have to say.

1) Lords of Chaos was used by the few academics who have written about Vikernes (Matthias Gardell, Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke), burzum.org was not.

2)Vikernes attacks Loc strongly in the rewiew on www.burzum org, but the rewiew on www.burzum.com is quite different: [19] If you look a the two home pages themselves, you would come to the conclusion that www. burzum.org is closer to be thr 'official' homepage of Vikernes, but there isn't any secondary source for it. All of these sources are more or less not reliable. We don't even have a reliable source that confirms the authenticity of www.burzum.org.

3) Even when Vikernes attacks LoC strongly in the review on www.burzum.org, he doesn't deny having Moynihan given the interview. In fact, he complains that the authors were not even "asking for [his] side of the story." He says that some of his statements were edited or misattributed, but he isn't very specific which ones exactly, because he doesn't want to dive "into such a pool of mud." Really, some details would be nice. What I could say on this, though, after reading both LoC and burzum.org is, that there are apparent ideological differences between Moynihan and Vikernes. From what I've read in LoC, I would say that the author who had the final word in its content was one of those Miguel Serrano-type adherents of Esoteric Nazism. Only that the book avoids to drop the name Serrano. But with Nazi Ufos and occult archetypes the ideological content of the book points into that direction. Vikernes, on the other hand, is more like an original Nazi paganist from the 1930s. He is explicitly racist (unlike Moynihan; LoC only includes a bad joke about Tom Araya "who isn't even remotely Aryan, but from a hispanic background" (sic)), he advocates an agrarian society and he even calls his ideology Odalism. I mean - why would he pick the same rune as the Nazi theorists of blood and soil? If you take these ideological differences into account, it's no surprise that Vikernes has a bad view of LoC. Moynihan brings in the pyromania motive because it fits his archetype line of argument. Too bad that Vikernes went through a lot of trouble during his trial to make clear that he wasn't a lunatic. If the person(s) responsible for LoC had just asked him on "pyromania" or just had the ability to report accurately about the trial, they would have seen that it doesn't fit this case. Of course, that would have denied them the whole Fire--Ragnarok--Rise-of-the-Odinic-Archetype story.

In summary: We are dealing with an extremist underground here. Expect lies and treachery everywhere! Unless someone here has a direct connection to one of the participants, we will never be able to sort out what part of LoC is edited and which one isn't. So I think it's fair if I go by the secondary sources - and they all refer to LoC. Zara1709 (talk) 11:22, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

1) Just because academics have used Lords of Chaos in their writings doesn't mean in ANY way that Lords of Chaos is authorative. This works the same way for burzum.org. The academics you mention probably don't know about burzum.org because they have limited their research to written publications, they can't see past the ends of their noses, or any reason like that. All it suggests is that those academics are much more gullible than most by believing what Lords of Chaos says.

2) There is a lot of evidence that burzum.org is Burzum's official homepage, if you bother to read any of the articles. It is clear that the administrators have written contact with Varg in prison. They are the first site to release statements from Varg, as well as pictures, news, etc. The fact that they released his prison mailing address at one point points quite strongly towards this. There is even a SCANNED copy of a letter under The Lords of Lies: Part II, sent to Varg from an unnamed member of a band which Old Funeral played a gig with. He talks to Varg about Euronymous and why he had to kill him. This letter was released to the public by Varg to show the true reason as to why he killed Euronymous, and that the theories created by the media are wrong. There are also many other articles which show that this is the official site, including the 'Bard's Tale' articles, and the articles on Paganism. These are personal interests of Varg, and no other Burzum 'fansite' has anything like these.

If you take an objective point of view, the information that Varg provides on burzum.org regarding black metal is far more logical and normal than the idiotic theories Moynihan discusses in Lords of Chaos. Also, the information that Varg gives ties in very well with other accounts of the early Black Metal scene, given by bands such as Darkthrone, etc. The outrageous story provided by Moynihan is so crazy, I don't understand how you can't realise that its pure fiction.

www.burzum.com is not associated with Varg at all. Varg has made a few written statements through burzum.org towards the administrators of this site, asking them to stop what they are doing and remove all of the 'information' on their site from the internet. There is an example of one of these statements here. This is an unofficial site which was created after Varg had a falling out with Rainer, the admin of www.burzum.com when it used to be Varg's official site. Rainer sold the website to the new owners without Varg's consent and the new version of www.burzum.com was created. They have even released an open letter to Varg as to why they continue to defy his wishes and keep running the site, which I'm sure you have probably read. The small amount of information on this site is mostly false. I suppose you would need a secondary source to prove that, say, www.metallica.comis Metallica's official website as well?

3) Using Lords of Chaos as a source is going to allow Moynihan's ideological bias to pollute the information on Wikipedia. From what I believe, Vikernes did give an interview to Moynihan, but this doesn't mean that the interview was included - even in part - in Lords of Chaos. There is no way to know what is right and what is wrong, unless we talk to Varg himself. Therefore, it would be unwise to use any of this information. And anyway, Varg isn't against Lords of Chaos because of his ideological differences with Moynihan, he's against it because of its factual inaccuracies and over-hyping of the early Black Metal scene. Even Darkthrone said in an interview that Lords of Chaos is just hype.

To conclude - Anybody could write a book and have it published, but this does not mean that its authorative. For all you know, I could be writing a biography on you, right now! It's clear that I know nothing about you, but that wouldn't stop me from writing anything I like. It doesn't matter anyway - as long as the publishers like what I write, they'll publish it. That shoots down the theory that because Lords of Chaos is a book that you bought from a shop; its contents are true. Lords of Chaos falls into exactly the same category as the Norwegian media when it comes to black metal - mostly lies and conjecture made up to sell copies and make people think that the early Black Metal scene was very extreme.

As far as sources go, it would be far more wise to assume that burzum.org is official - juat as it claims to be - and to use that site for information. Also, the video documentary 'Satan Rides The Media' by Torstein Grude is very good too, and Varg gives this a positive review here on burzum.org. Varg says that although the documentary has a few flaws, its content is good. In the review, Varg says:

Torstein Grude was no an expert in this field. He didn't claim to be an expert either, like many do. Like I said, he interviewed a lot of Black Metal people and got to know this milieu pretty well, and being a "malicious bastard", I just have to mention that he also talked to the Norwegian co-writer of "Lords Of Chaos", and concluded that this guy had no clue whatsoever, so he didn't bother to interview him and include him in the film.

There are some conclusions and assertions in this film that I disagreed with and some things are outright wrong, but all in all Torstein Grude did a good job and as far as I remember this documentary is rather good. He is indeed far more knowledgeable and trustworthy than everybody else that has tried to unveil the secrets of this milieu, not least compared to self-proclaimed experts on the subject, like the useless writers of "Lords Of Chaos", "Djevelen Danser" and "Lucifer Rising". He had to keep in mind that this film had to be accepted by TV, though, so perhaps he was more critical towards some of the people involved than he really wanted to, but I have to stress that this is just speculations. I don't know any of this for sure, I just choose to believe so because he is a professional and a clever person. He knew what he had to do to get it on the air.

There is also a new documentary on Norwegian Black Metal being produced called 'Until The Light Takes Us' and this will cover Varg Vikernes in depth, with video interviews from inside his prison. This will probably be the most authorative source of all, but until it comes out we will have to wait. I have seen a very short clip from this documentary on YouTube, of Varg in his cell talking about the drug addicts within the prison. Its most definitely Varg in the clip - no lies there.

Just because Varg is an 'underground extremist' does not mean we should expect lies and treachery. And, by no way should we allow any 'lies and treachery' to leak onto Wikipedia.

Temple-of-Monkeys (talk) 00:04, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Please respect all sources. I believe Vikernes is writing an auto-biography (or has already) and I'm sure that will clear a lot up when ever it is published. Alphaknave (talk) 00:14, 3 October 2008 (UTC)