Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Afsheen (musician)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. czar 21:48, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Afsheen (musician)

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The creating editor has had this draft declined several times at WP:AFC and has expressed the firm opinion that it should be in mainspace in its current form. They have the right to disagree with reviewers. I have accepted the draft and am submitting it to AfD on the simple basis that the several reviewers who declined it may have a different view from the community. Consensus is our governing mantra, and will be formed now. I view this as a very poorly referenced offering that does not verify its subject's notability. I have reviewed each of the 22 alleged references. Of the 22 I find only a couple that have any form of real coverage about Afsheen, several which are track listings, which add no clue to verifying notability, several more which are pure churnalism - breathy notices of new releases, at least one which has no mention of Afsheen, several interviews with Asheen (we have no interest in what he says, we are only interested in what is said about him.) 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 18:41, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People and Bands and musicians. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 18:41, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Iran and California. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 18:43, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for accepting. I strongly believe it meets the WP:COMPOSER I added CD as sources, and ask you to check those before voting. Those are also included in over 20 wikipedia articles about his work.

Criteria for composers and lyricists

WP:COMPOSER

For the WikiProject, see Wikipedia:Composers.

Composers, songwriters, librettists or lyricists, may be notable if they meet at least one of the following criteria:

Has credit for writing or co-writing either lyrics or music for a notable composition. - "there are over 20 notable composition that even have their own WIKIPEDIA articles." Mentioned in over 23 sources I added to the article.
Has written musical theatre of some sort (e.g., musicals, operas) that was performed in a notable theatre that had a reasonable run, as such things are judged in their particular situation, context, and time.
Has had a work used as the basis for a later composition by a songwriter, composer, or lyricist who meets the above criteria.
Has written a composition that has won (or in some cases been given a second or other place) in a major music competition not established expressly for newcomers.
Has been listed as a major influence or teacher of a composer, songwriter, or lyricist that meets the above criteria.
Appears at reasonable length in standard reference books on their genre of music.

J2009j (talk) 18:50, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I believe this should be interpreted as a Keep opinion. Doubtless J2009j will confirm this by adding "Keep" in bold to their input. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 18:53, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely 🥸.I did not know WP:COMPOSER exists. J2009j (talk) 19:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would ask @Oaktree b, whom I saw many times on the delete page to review this and WP:COMPOSER, and criteria #1 if he has time, please. I am actually tired for this category being ignored every time I ask. J2009j (talk) 23:21, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete I don't see notability of any flavour, be it WP:GNG, WP:MUSICBIO, WP:CREATIVE or otherwise. The fundamental problem here is that an association with several notable musicians and/or musical works is being whipped up to a claim of share-of-notability for everyone involved, as in the old proverb that "success has many fathers" etc., which just doesn't cut it. This individual may well be talented, for all I know, and might one day become notable, but just isn't there yet. --DoubleGrazing (talk) 19:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@DoubleGrazing Hi! I think you deliberately ignored my comment about WP:COMPOSER criteria #1, because you declined my draft. Rules are the same for all. If I see something wrong, I say it, and I believe it is fine to point it out. I may not be an editor with many years of experience- but this is the rule about WP:COMPOSER J2009j (talk) 19:12, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
He also produced a few dozen song so also meets WP:CREATIVE. You can check that in Discography, with all the CDs. I believe you did not check.

You also contradict yourself with this "share-of notability". What do the rules say- "The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work."

Same goes to composer, he wrote alone and in team "Has credit for writing or co-writing either lyrics or music for a notable composition".

Let's be objective. If you do not like someone's article, it does not mean you should make claims that are clearly false, and contradict Wikipedia rules.

The person wrote a dozen songs that have wikipedia page - and you write "I know, and might one day become notable, but just isn't there yet." But I see editors who decline this draft, accept this one Ryan Trey. That is clearly bias, so I am defending it. I hope all can make objective decisions. Thanks <3 J2009j (talk) 19:47, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I have now warned J2009j twice for their personal attacks on DoubleGrazing. I hope this behaviour will now cease. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 19:57, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. So let's respect policies and WP:COMPOSER and other rules.⭐️ J2009j (talk) 20:01, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: ignoring their interjection above, they have reached an L3 warning for personal attacks on DoubleGrazing. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 20:10, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Although I suspect a possible WP:COI, WP:UPE, it's normal to fight for the notability of a draft/article. With regards to that, I sense a bit notability in the draft but not enough to meet WP:GNG. For now, he hasn't been covered significantly in multiple reliable sources (interviews aren't part of them). Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 20:54, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to add the I made a point about WP:COMPOSER, as it meets it. I added multiple reliable sources such as CD with work credits. J2009j (talk) 21:04, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Does not meet any SNGs, ANYBIO, or GNG. The creator has repeatedly tried to convince me that they meet WP:NMUSICIAN #2, #8, #10, #11, etc. They do not. They are listed as a producer on some songs that meet those criteria, but Afsheen is not the musician and it does not really help their notability. There are a few trivial mentions in reliable sources, and a few pieces in random blogs. Not enough to meet GNG or write a verifiable article. To the creator: the amount of review requests you've sent to editors is crazy. More than half your live contributions are talk page review requests about various drafts of yours. You've asked for a review of this draft twice on Timtrent's talk page, three times on SafariScribe's talk page, on Randompersonediting's talk page, on Wikishovel's talk page, on Shenaall's talk page, on Theroadislong's talk page, once on Paper9oll's talk page, on Bsoyka's talk page, on Qcne's talk page, on my talk page, two times at the AfC help desk, and at the Teahouse. This is textbook forum shopping and you've already been warned about this. The only times I've seen editors so concerned about re-reviews and waiting have been when they have had financial stakes in the topic. C F A 💬 21:59, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I added a category it meets, which you seem to ignore. WP:COMPOSER. I believe it exists on Wikipedia for this specific case. I added multiple reliable sources such as CD with work credits. I did not like it when I saw the editor Safari accepted this article Ryan Trey, while declining mine. This reminded me of some kind of financial stakes. Correct me if I am wrong. I am open to discuss. This article is only based on interviews on random sites, and yet all my question regarding the category of composers I found were ignored by same editors who know each other. I believe it is more than fair for me to express these concerns.
Why there is such a category like WP:COMPOSER on Wikipedia then if main editors just ignore my questions about it?
For the WikiProject, see Wikipedia:Composers.
Composers, songwriters, librettists or lyricists, may be notable if they meet at least one of the following criteria:
Has credit for writing or co-writing either lyrics or music for a notable composition. - "there are over 20 notable composition that even have their own WIKIPEDIA articles." Mentioned on the official CD records, and over 23 sources I added to the article.
J2009j (talk) 22:47, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
According to you none of these songs are "notable compositions"? Afsheen (musician)#Discography? J2009j (talk) 22:58, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Admin comment I have p-blocked J2009j from this page to allow consensus to form. I have also warned them that if disruption moves elsewhere, the block will be broadened. Star Mississippi 01:40, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Well, the now-blocked editor has asked me to comment; I'm not sure we have notability, but the Latin Grammy nomination would imply MUSIC notability. I've not reviewed the sources to confirm how useful they are however. I'll report back in a bit. Oaktree b (talk) 02:03, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Well, the Latin Grammy website confirms he was nominated. Unfortunately, there aren't enough sources to support notability. This [1] and [2], neither of which are reliable sources per Project Album [3], which I've used to review past musical articles here. Being nominated for a Latin Grammy is an indicator of notability, but we still need sourcing that discusses the subject at hand. I tend to agree that most of the sourcing used now in the article isn't helpful and not in reliable sources. Oaktree b (talk) 02:09, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - What the creator misses is that qualifying under WP:COMPOSER doesn't mean the subject is automatically considered notable, but merely a sign that the subject may be notable. But reliable sources covering this subject beyond credits to verify their existence and contribution are incredibly sparse. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 05:44, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Not able to establish notability, nomination rationale is on point, and other delete voters have said everything. Tehonk (talk) 05:59, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per CoffeeCrumbs' reasoning. Best, GPL93 (talk) 16:33, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.