Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Old Town Manor

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. Yep, no consensus. I hope that those hard-working editors who did so much legwork to find out information about this building can add their discoveries to the article. That step often doesn't happen after an AFD closes and I hope this will be the exception. Thanks to all participants for taking consideration of this artice seriously and doing their due diligence even if they disagree on the result. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 04:58, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Old Town Manor

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Basically WP:PROMO. Orphaned for a decade. PepperBeast (talk) 14:41, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Florida-related deletion discussions. PepperBeast (talk) 14:41, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 15:51, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: A Forbes contributor piece [1], a small mention in Nat Geographic [2], a gay-friendly hotel listing [3] and a train derailment nearby [4], none of which help notability here. Oaktree b (talk) 15:51, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I'd be ok with a redirect to "Key West Historic District", of which it seems to be a component. Oaktree b (talk) 15:52, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This might be a hard one. There's WP:COI around the article's creation and the website points back here [5]. There are references to Miami Herald and Key West Citizen that might help, but we have to verify the articles and see if they are beyond a passing glance. The article can be fixed up to remove the promotional tone and anything not NPOV that can be dealt outside of this AfD. I did find out there's a historical marker at the place [6], so it seems searching should include the name The Samuel O. Johnson House. The building is located within the Key West Historic District ~~but it appears no historic nomination has been made for the manor.~~[7] [8] and was added when the boundary was increased in 1983. [9] [10] (page 121). I'm going with a weak keep. – The Grid (talk) 16:48, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete WP:PROMO. COI authorship of article. Not used in National Register application to expand district. Florida historic marker sponsored/placed by the property. No historic events or notable historic people (at least none with Wikipedia articles) cited. Citations don't show general notability. In fact, newspaper citations are worthless since they link to the Wikipedia articles about the two newspapers, not to articles about the property. They could be anything, including advertising. Redirect won't work. Brief description of historic district as a whole and list of properties with links to articles; no content about individual properties. Donner60 (talk) 04:17, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is rather perplexing.
- I provided a citation that shows the property is at the very least listed and included in the boundary expansion. The classification provided was conforming. See page 27 of the pdf. Of course there's not much content provided but this provides some basic information from NRHP.
- Florida historic markers are going to show as sponsored/placed by the property. It's a public-private partnership that will also be sponsored by the area's tourism agency. That does not negate the information that is provided on them. It looks like the historical markers of the Key West Historic Walking Tours are sponsored by the Key West Art & Historical Society. [11] top bar Historical Markers, Inc. maintains them. For this item, it looks like both entities provide the historical information on their website [12] [13]. I don't know how more "official" I can make this.
- For the news articles, that's where we have to verify them. I give benefit of the doubt for them to be pure advertising because it's from the 1950s and 1960s. I'll see if I can find the articles in question. – The Grid (talk) 15:57, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the additional comment and information on Florida historic markers. I will check back in a few days at most to see what else you may be able to add. Donner60 (talk) 21:35, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
At this time, I am staying with my original comment of Delete. The citation to the NRHP document failed verification by me. The property on that page (27) is not the Old Town Manor. Simply being an old building within a historic district is not enough to show that it is notable. The house, as the Samuel O. Johnson house is on the cited Key West Historical marker tour. However, I don't see the information as making the house notable for Wikipedia. No occurrences or activities of historic note are shown. The previous owners are not shown to be notable simply by being referenced on a historical marker as previous owners who conducted businesses at the house or had a nice garden. This type of activity by owners is not uncommon for old houses and does not make it notable.

I don't see this house listed on the Key West Art & Historical Society historical markers page or any of the walking tours either. The page lists 125 historical markers and I think it is significant that this house is not listed. (If I am missing it under another name, let me know in reply.) In summary, I don't see any historic notability for this house outside of it being in the district.
We also know that this was one of several B&Bs which followed instructions on a YouTube page on how to evade Wikipedia requirements and to publish a promo article. The promotional/advertising nature of the article is apparent. Others may differ based on the historical marker, I suppose. As time passes it is beginning to seem unlikely there will be many additional. (I am not sure whether old listings may actually attract a few more comments.) If I have computed it correctly, this will be passing into the older Afds category tomorrow. I will check back again in a few days and will re-read the marker information to see if I should give it more weight if this AfD is still open. Donner60 (talk) 04:29, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I was looking through its address: 511 Eaton Avenue. Its first existence was the home of Samuel O. Johnson in 1886. I was looking beyond the name of Old Town Manor for my research above and used Eaton Lodge as well. I knew looking through Old Town Mayor would get into circular sourcing. I couldn't find anything through the newspapers which sucks. It just seems there is information here with The Samuel O. Johnson, Eaton Lodge, and Old Town Lodge but then the Old Town Manor renaming and owners add promotional language to the information that could perhaps be salvaged. – The Grid (talk) 17:50, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 23:23, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I imagine this will end up as no consensus (and I have no prejudice if it's brought through AfD again). I can comb through the article and copyedit a lot of the promotional language. The focus of the article on the "Old Town Manor" is a blip on the structure's history. – The Grid (talk) 14:00, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. I too failed to find this in the NRHP link, but I'm not used to searching there. The first occupant, Samuel Otis Johnson, does not appear notable per lack of non-paid obituaries in newspaper search. I did find 51 hits in newspaper search for "511 Eaton Street" +Florida. The first few hits show that by the 1920s it was owned by the Warren family (particularly Dr William R. Warren), who appear to have been locally notable in 1920s to at least the mid-1950s; eg The Key West Citizen 23 Sep 1947, Page 6 gives a long account of George Allen Warren's marriage, which includes a little info on the family. There's a brief note that John Allen Long designed the interior (The Key West Citizen 18 Feb 1938, Page 2) and something about an orchid (unfortunately didn't note the ref). Searching on "William Richard Warren" finds an authored piece on Mrs William Richard Warren (Myrtle Cosgrove (10 Jan 1940). Key West Women: Their Homes and Gardens. The Key West Citizen, Page 4) which calls her garden "one of the beauty spots of the island" and says "her home is a center of both social and cultural things." It definitely was a private house c. 1956, so earlier newspaper articles are probably acceptable sources. By 1987 it is an inn under the name Eaton Lodge, owned by Samuel Maxell; there's a promo piece that might be partly editorial, in Fort Lauderdale News (30 Aug 1987, page 410), which implies it is included in Humm's Guide to Key West. Proquest searches under various keywords gave "one of the more attractive inns, a dignified Victorian house in the middle of a tropical garden" in the NYT (Walter Logan. WHAT'S DOING IN KEY WEST. New York Times 31 Jan 1982: A.10.) I think a diligent search of local newspapers and books (eg trying to find obits for Dr William R. Warren and his wife) might well unearth enough coverage. If it is kept, it should be retitled probably to "511, Eaton Street". Espresso Addict (talk) 03:48, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

ETA: Google Books finds lots of hits; including [14] which has a 2-page spread on Eaton Lodge (pp53–54), which looks to be where a lot of the article comes from. Also several separate accounts of ghosts eg [15]. Also, can't access, but Makers of America has several pages on William Richard Warren (pp. 349–353). Espresso Addict (talk) 05:32, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Star Mississippi 01:56, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Assuming no consensus due to few, if any, additional comments, I can support a "no consensus, keep" result. I do this on the basis of accepting that The Grid and Espresso Addict will make the revisions and improvements that they mention in their comments. I must add that I still think the subject of the article as it stands is not notable and is promotional. However, I trust that these editors will make satisfactory additions and revisions to make it worth keeping. Donner60 (talk) 06:14, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.