User talk:Sartma

Indexing on Cuneiform transliterations

@Tom 144, Fay Freak, Metaknowledge, Profes.I. Hi there! Thank you for taking the time to engage with me in the past days re' Akkadian and Cuneiform!

While reviewing some Cuneiform sign entries, I also modified some cuneiform transliterations, and I started using Unicode subscript numbers to indicate indexes. But I'm having doubts whether that's the best approach (even though it does look neater on screen from a typographical point of view, at least to me). Unicode subscript numbers are not easy to type in general outside the Wiktionary editing window. So I'm curious to know what your opinion on this matter is. Which of the following options for indexing transliterations do you think would be better to use on Wiktionary?

1. Unicode subscript numbers: ₀₁₂₃₄₅₆₈₉? Ex.: du₃, gu₄, gi₁₇, etc. (they can be found and easily entered selecting Miscellaneous in the drop down menu on bottom left of the page when in editing mode.)
2. HTML tags: <sub><sub/>? Ex.: du₃, gu₄, gi₁₇, etc.

Thank you! Sartma (talk) 11:59, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

@Sartma: My opinion is that Unicode subscript numbers are easy to type. I directly input Unicode by name or hex via the function in my IME (search name subscript NUMBER and select), or otherwise via dedicated applications like gucharmap or KCharSelect, so I have never once used the Wiktionary editing window to find signs. Such Unicode input even exists in bare GTK and QT environments by default. The machine readability of the them is also better than with HTML tags. Fay Freak (talk) 15:04, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

@Fay Freak: Thank you! I'll keep those for now then, unless someone points out a compelling argument in favour of HTML tags. — This unsigned comment was added by Sartma (talk • contribs) at 14:46, 27 April 2021 (UTC).

Akkadian: three vowel lengths?

Hi, @Tom 144! I've seen you changed the vowel length in the Pronunciation section of šarrāqum, stating in your comment that "Vowels could have three lengths.". Where did you find this information? I find it quite difficult to believe that we could understand such a minor thing from the cuneiform script, but I'm willing to change my mind if I see valid proof! Cheers, Sartma (talk) 15:55, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Problemi con l'UNICODE

Ciao Sartma, sto provando a trascrivere in unicode i testi in cuneiforme che sono incrostati nelle voci di Wikipedia con delle immagini. Sto incontrando però alcune difficoltà, come con l'albero ḫalub perché non trovo il simbolo corrispondente a ub₂. Il mio riferimento è la tabella dn-works. Potrei farti altri esempi, ma l'idea è quella. Che tu sappia, c'è un modo per ovviare a questo problema, come la "composizione di caratteri"? Grazie --Ruthven (talk) 08:08, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Ciao! Io da browser uso questo:

• Akkadian Keyboard.

Non ha sempre tutte le “pronunce”, ma è comodo nella maggior parte dei casi.

ḫalūb

Se ci sono caratteri che non trovi, fammi sapere che te li copincollo qui! Sartma (talk) 08:23, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Bello strumento, grazie! Ho provato, ma non ritrovo i caratteri che cerco. Nella finestra "classic" ho scritto ḫalūb e il risultato non corrisponde esattamente a quanto mi aspettavo (che corrisponde all'immagine qui di lato, per intenderci, che ho trovato anche in un'altra fonte).

Stesse difficoltà con anzūd, che io ho segnato come traslitterato an-zu-ud₂^mušen. Qualche idea? --Ruthven (talk) 19:24, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

rimani su “Advanced” e nella finestra di input (quella più in basso di una riga solo) digita “kha” per 𒄩, “lu” per 𒇻 e “ub2” per 𒂠. I caratteri compaiono nella finestra più grande sopra.

per “anzūd” digita “an” per 𒀭, “zu” per 𒍪, “ash2” per 𒀾 (ud₂) e “mushen” per 𒄷.

purtroppo non sono presenti tutte le pronunce di alcuni caratteri, quindi se non trovi il carattere che vuoi con una pronuncia devi provare con un’altra. Io in questi casi uso “An Akkadian Handbook”, che ha una lista di tutte le pronunce e il rimando ai caratteri corrispondenti. Se vieni sul canale Discord di Wiktionary puoi chiedermi I caratteri che non trovi via chat. Sartma (talk) 19:47, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Grazie, mi hai aperto un mondo! --Ruthven (talk) 22:25, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Missing cuneiform characters

Hello Sartma

I wanted to use the cuneiform character MU , but it is not on the Wiktionary set.

Can you please create this symbol.

Shlomo.

ShlomoKatzav (talk) 03:39, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

@ShlomoKatzav: Hi! The question with Unicode cuneiform signs is a bit complicated. The sign you're looking for does exist and is 𒈬. If you want to display Neo-Assyrian signs you'll have to use a Neo-Assyrian font. By default you'll see a representation of the lapidary style (the one Hammurabi's code is written in, for example). So, it's not a question of Unicode symbol, but of font. Sartma (talk) 10:44, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi, Sartma

Thanks for the reply.

Indeed, this is the same Unicode.

How can I implement a Neo-Assyrian font while typing in Wiktionary? What are the steps?

ShlomoKatzav (talk) 11:13, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

@ShlomoKatzav It's a matter of display. I've always been working with lapidary style cuneiform, so I wouldn't really know what to suggest. You can find free Neo-Assyrian fonts on different places online. I know of this site, for example: Cuneifont. Once you installed the font you want, you need to set your browser to use those fonts (if your browser allows it. I'm on Chrome and still didn't quite understand how to do that). Sartma (talk) 13:57, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

@ShlomoKatzav: Update on the Neo-Assyrian font front. To change the font Wiktionary uses to display Akkadian, you need to create your private common.css file. Create the page User:ShlomoKatzav/common.css and copy paste the following line in it:

:lang(akk).Xsux {font-family: Assurbanipal; font-size: 150%;}

After that, go to this site and download the font called Assurbanipal (choose it from the Download menu on the top right) and install it on your computer. Restart your browser and all Akkadian entries should appear in Neo-Assyrian cuneiform now. Let me know if it worked! Sartma (talk) 09:22, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Another place from where you can download cuneiform fonts: Oracc fonts Sartma (talk) 14:17, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello, Sartma

I understand the point.

In the meantime I'll read more about these symbols.

ShlomoKatzav (talk) 15:48, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi, Sartma

i was glad to receive your message concerning the Neo-Assyrian characters.

i'll try the font option.

in the meantime i'm using the available characters. It's O.K.

shlomo.

ShlomoKatzav (talk) 14:06, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

The cuneiform graphical files

Hello, Sartma

I perceived that in the Wiktionary there are stored some cuneiform files, which are displayed in the character-info box.

Are they stored by a user?

How are they defined in the entry?

Shlomo.

ShlomoKatzav (talk) 10:01, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

@ShlomoKatzav Yes, there are some images of Neo-Assyrian cuneiform stored on Wikimedia Commons. You can find them here: Cuneiform signs.

To add them to the character info box, you need to add their Unicode code point and the name of the corresponding image file to this module: Module:Unicode data/images/012.

If you have time, please go ahead! :D Sartma (talk) 12:56, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi, Sartma

Thank you for the reply.

I think that these images provide very important value for researchers.

I hope to contribute some input to this category.

Shlomo.

ShlomoKatzav (talk) 15:21, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Akkadian parts of speech

Please stop adding headers with "logogram" as the part of speech: this isn't acceptable per WT:POS. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 07:20, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Hi! There was a discussion about this on BP where most participants supported the Logogram POS, that's why I'm using it. What's the procedure to make it official and add it to WT:POS? Sartma (talk) 08:05, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Great, thanks for this and for reverting me. I recommend that you post this to the Grease Pit to get help having it added to the template. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:00, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Akkadian template

I made {{akk-signs}} based on {{sux-signs}} but haven't tried putting it in many pages. Do you have a perspective on if this template is a good idea? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 07:21, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Hi! Thank you for getting in touch. We don't need an {{akk-signs}} template though, since Akkadian entries are given in their Normalised forms (Latin letters) and Akkadian cuneiform spellings are given with the {{cunsp}} template. See for example: 𒀭 (šamû). Sartma (talk) 07:58, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Deleted. Thanks again. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:00, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

𒈦𒌋

Since you have added Akkadian categories to this I assume there should be an Akkadian L2 header somewhere, right? I didn't add it myself because I wasn't 100% sure on how to break up the entry. 37.110.218.43 12:17, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Yes indeed! I fixed it, thank you! If you are interested in adding more Sumerian/Akkadian, just check other Sumerian lemmas or Akkadian lemmas and copy the page structure. Don't be afraid of adding content, I check new entries regularly and will edit them if they need editing. At the moment I'm pretty much the only editor for Akkadian and Sumerian, I could use a hand! :D Sartma (talk) 12:24, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Check out the About Sumerian and About Akkadian pages for more info, too! Sartma (talk) 12:26, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

𒍠

Please see my edit there and confirm that this is correct and consistent with other such entries. Thanks. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 23:20, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

@Koavf: It is, indeed! Thank you! Sartma (talk) 00:07, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Invalid parts of speech again

Please amend the entries in Category:Sumerian demonstratives per WT:EL or get consensus for adding a new part of speech to headings. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:49, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

@Koavf: Changed! Can you have a look and see if what I did is ok? I copied what they did for Cimbrian dèar... Sartma (talk) 15:31, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Beautiful. Thanks for all your hard work here! —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 15:39, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Determinative

Hello, if it's a valid/required POS header, maybe you should get it added to WT:POS. (I just noticed that this was already discussed, but the page hasn't been updated.) – Jberkel 21:00, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

@Jberkel: Done! Thank you! Sartma (talk) 23:50, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Thank you

For the detailed and perfectly formatted Akkadian entries. 70.172.194.25 23:20, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Anytime! :-) Sartma (talk) 23:28, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

אוֹפֶה vs אֹפֶה

Hi Sartma First, it's so nice to have another active Hebrew contributor. I've checked the Hebrew Academy and Morfix https://hebrew-academy.org.il/keyword/%D7%90%D7%95%D6%B9%D7%A4%D6%B6%D7%94 https://www.morfix.co.il/en/%D7%90%D7%95%D7%A4%D7%94 and they support the use of אוֹפֶה. Could you verify whether אֹפֶה is used as baker? Thanks in advance. Taokailam (talk) 07:49, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Hi! It is in Biblical Hebrew (where in general participles are not written with plene spellings). See entry in BDB and Gesenius' Lexicon: אָפָה. Sartma (talk) 08:16, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Looks like there's a difference in Biblical Hebrew and Modern Hebrew. I can change the entry to look like אוֹפֶה \ אֹפֶה. What do you think? Taokailam (talk) 00:43, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

@Taokailam: I added the niqqūḏ to the plene spelling, as you suggested. It does make sense in this case, I guess. Sartma (talk) 00:52, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Taokailam (talk) 02:58, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Is it really necessary to add .MEŠ plurals as alternate cuneiform spellings?

As you did in šandanakkum. Biolongvistul (talk) 15:57, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

@Biolongvistul: Nothing is “really” necessary. It might be useful though, since not all plurals have MEŠ. Some words have ḪI.A, some other can take both, some nothing… Sartma (talk) 22:31, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Where to put HE root?

Hi Sartma

I don't mind putting the HE root template under ==Hebrew== as you suggested in ראש.

1. There are entries with different roots, eg: כילה. I think in those pages, the HE root template is best after ===Etymology 1===, ===Etymology 2===, etc.

2. The section WT:AHE#Formatting Hebrew entries seem to suggest that HE root be used under the section ===Etymology===. A rewording will be useful for future editors.

Let me know what you think. Thanks. Taokailam (talk) 19:19, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

@Taokailam: Hi! Thanks for getting in touch about those points!

1. I agree that entries with more than one root can have the root template right under their Etymology header.
2. We should definitely reword the paragraph you linked (and the . I'll have a go at it later this week. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 21:41, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

hello, thanks and questions on how to's

Hi Sartma!

Thanks a lot for your work on the sumerian pages, it's really fun to find and browse this resource!

I'm an amateur and I would like to use it but also to make it more discoverable by "inverting" the translations, the pages go [sumerian symbols]-> english meaning right now, and I would like to invert this and possible add pages for other languages. Not by editing the pages as they exist, but by finding the linked to words and adding it to their list of translations.

In that process I would also create a [english]->[sumerian symbols] set that could also be of use on the sumerian pages?

I'm hesitating to just go full steam ahead on my own, it's probably relatively easy to cause damage that's at the very least annoying to fix.

Do you have ideas or suggestions how that might be done? I would analyze the pages with the python programming language.

Also I'm not sure if this is the best place to discuss these things, is there maybe some public chat channel or hashtag or some other platform where discussions are taking place?

Looking forward to hearing from you!

Bmaxv

Hi Bmaxv! Thank you for you post! Unfortunately I'm terrible when it comes to the technical side of things. I'm not even 100% sure I fully understood your request... I would say that, if you are confident with how Wiktionary works and you know your tools, then... go for it?

I'll just ping a couple of people I think might have a deeper insight into this, they might give you some better suggestions or help: @Erutuon, Benwing2 (Can you guys help?) — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 18:23, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

@Bmaxv A few things: (1) Please sign using ~~~~ in place of typing in your name. (2) When you say "'inverting' the translations" I take it you want to take the English glosses of Sumerian terms and invert them to get Sumerian translations of English terms. You are aware that English terms already have translation tables? If what you're proposing is to augment the existing translation tables based on the English glosses of Sumerian terms, that cannot be done automatically because there may be several Sumerian terms mapping to the same English term, and the translation table should not blindly list all the Sumerian terms but only the most common one(s); and if more than one are common and worthy of listing, they need to be ordered by how common they are. Think of a regular print dictionary, which uses the same principles. Discussions of this nature are perhaps best carried out at the WT:Beer Parlour so you get the widest possible audience. Benwing2 (talk) 04:39, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Akkadian ux’s

Just curious, are they picked from ancient sources or are they your own creation? --Biolongvistul (talk) 19:45, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

@Biolongvistul: No, I take them from CAD. I do my best to find the original cuneiform spelling, but if I can't find it I just use plausible spellings (i.e., spellings I find elsewhere in CAD). — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 21:05, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Biblical Hebrew pronunciations

Do this user’s contributions look right to you (especially the one on חלב)? ―⁠Biolongvistul (talk) 13:49, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

@Biolongvistul: I would not accept them. I believe that at the moment the consense for Biblical Hebrew pronunciation reconstruction is based on Tiberian pronunciation. Those edits look more like a reconstruction of Paleo-Hebrew. This is definitely something that should be discussed and agreed upon. If there was no previous discussion about it, I’d remove them all. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 14:05, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Suqum

"Cognate" indicates it is a parallel word, not a loanword, so Hebrew is not a cognate. Why did you add it back? Ogress (talk) 11:13, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi! Thanks for your comment. I changed it to "Compare". — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 13:33, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi

Sartma Hi I am Tony, I don't know what I should do here so if you need any help with editing, I will do it. I have a lot of free time. Tony022

Hi @Tony, thanks for your message! If you know Sumerian and want to help adding new entries, please do go ahead!

Please refer to the page About Sumerian when adding or modifying entries. Thanks a lot for your help! — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 22:38, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I am trying to learn Sumerian, my friends and I have various resources on discord. I told them about wiktionary but many of them don't know that this site exists for some reason. Tony022 (talk) 09:35, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

https://discord.gg/VykprZaxdC this is a link to the discord server if you want to meet more people interested in this language. Tony022 (talk) 09:38, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Akk. 𒃮𒊑 in Old Armenian etymology

Hey, could you also take a look at the etymology section of Old Armenian մաքառիմ, where this Sumerogram was cited? There, it is transliterated as 'maḫāru⁠', which presumably would also be incorrect. Thanks in advance! AntiquatedMan (talk) 11:56, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

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Pazuzu

Greetings Sartma,

There is no attested plural form for this entry, correct?

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Paz%C5%ABzu#Akkadian

Originally, there was a plural form included. newfiles (talk) 20:16, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@Mynewfiles I found it on CAD. Where did you read that it's not attested? — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 16:39, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, my error. Can you plz verify if this entry that I created is accurate and correct in its wiki form?

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Paz%C5%ABz%C4%81nu newfiles (talk) 19:15, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

governed state

Sartma,

Is the def. that I created look correct and accurate to you?

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/governed_state

I would appreciate your feedback. newfiles (talk) 05:23, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

governed state

Sartma,

Is the def. that I created look correct and accurate to you?

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/governed_state

I would appreciate your feedback. newfiles (talk) 17:52, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi, @Mynewfiles. Where did you find that definition? It doesn't look correct to me, since the only case that the second term of a genitive construction in Akkadian is genitive, not a "specific case ending". While the first term (the one in the construct state) usually has a specific form that can be different from its absolute state, there's really nothing special about the second term, it just is a noun in the genitive case. I know some grammars have a term for this noun, but it would be ideal if you could add some references to your definition. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 10:16, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello Sartma,

Thank you for the reply. I obtained the definition from a book on Akkadian grammar. I can't remember the exact title. Would you be so kind as to revise and improve the entry I created? mynewfiles (talk) 20:08, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

governed state

Sartma,

How does the revised definition look now? Accurate or no? mynewfiles (talk) 08:16, 4 July 2024 (UTC)