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Merger proposal

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The result of this discussion was to oppose a merge of Ancestry of Donald Trump to this article, with possibilities of an alternative merge elsewhere. Wikishovel (talk) 14:35, 19 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I propose that Ancestry of Donald Trump be merged into Trump family. I think that the content in the Ancestry of Donald Trump article can easily be explained in the context of the Trump family, and the Trump family article is of a reasonable size that the merging of Ancestry of Donald Trump will not cause any problems as far as article size or undue weight is concerned. User1937 (talk) 14:10, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support alternate merge of Ancestry of Donald Trump with Family of Donald Trump, as discussed below and proposed at Talk:Family of Donald Trump. — JFG talk 09:58, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Actually, I disagree. The two topics are separate. The focus of the article on the Trump family is on just one family and its history since the early 17th century. The family does seem to meet the notability standard for a stand-alone article on the family as it has had a lengthy and well documented history and several prominent members, including members who were prominent before this election. An article on the Ancestry of Donald Trump can easily become very bloated and naturally will cover individuals who have nothing to do with the Trump family, such as Trump's ancestors from Scotland. --Tataral (talk) 20:48, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
To counter your point, the Obama family doesn't have a lot of prominent members either, besides Barack Obama himself. Nearly everyone in America knew of the Trump family, either through The Apprentice or through the real estate world. Their ancestry and info on it isn't that extensive, and can easily be merged with this, wouldn't you agree? User1937 (talk) 21:22, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I understand your point or who you are talking to. The fact that the Obama family didn't have the history of the Trump family or its previous famous members is exactly the point, and the Obama family therefore is redirected to the Family of Barack Obama article. That would be wholly inappropriate in this case because the Trump family was well known before Donald Trump's candidacy in this year's election, and includes members (among them Trump's father and uncle, but also the founder of the Heinz company) who were independently notable way before Trump wanted to become president. Wikipedia has many articles on families and the Trump family clearly meets the notability standard for families by having a lengthy and well documented history and multiple independently famous members. Some of the content in this article, e.g. the "Genealogical table", really isn't about the Trump family but about Donald Trump's ancestry, a separate topic (and article). In the "Trump family" article the focus is on the history of a family (patrilineally) over the centuries, as opposed to taking just one living person as its starting point. --Tataral (talk) 21:54, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The family is chiefly notable for one family member, and there's really no need for two articles on the family. Wikishovel (talk) 15:26, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • That is completely untrue, as evidenced by the fact that numerous family members had Wikipedia articles even before his candidacy, and many would argue that Henry J. Heinz was far more prominent than any other family member until this year. Both Trump's father, uncle and other family members were independently notable and prominent in their fields. We don't have two articles on the family. The Trump family is a separate topic from an article about Trump's ancestors from Scotland etc. who are completely unrelated to the Trump family. --Tataral (talk) 15:30, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Trump's ancestors are completely unrelated to his family? Wikishovel (talk) 15:36, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Being an ancestor of Donald Trump doesn't make someone part of the Trump family, the topic of this article, if the person didn't belong to the Trump part of the family. This is a family article in the format of other family articles on Wikipedia, not an article about an individual's ancestors (which has the reverse focus). It would be quite inappropriate to merge content about Donald Trump's distant relatives who are not his ancestors, but who belonged to the Trump family, into an article on his ancestors, and it would be quite inappropriate to merge all sorts of content about people who didn't belong to the Trump family (and had never heard of the Trump family in their lifetime) into an article about the Trump family. If anything, the content about Donald Trump's ancestry in that separate article should be merged into the article on Donald Trump itself (because the article is relatively short and doesn't contain much content which isn't already covered in that biography), and we should keep this article which is on a separate topic and not focused exclusively on Donald Trump or his immediate family. --Tataral (talk) 15:43, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Tataral: Your edits and subsequent explanations have convinced me that there should be a separate Trump family article. To solve the problem of there being three (and a bit) related articles, how about what User:JFG proposed 4 hours ago at Talk:Family of Donald Trump: "merging some non-overlapping bits from Ancestry of Donald Trump into an "Ancestry" section, and keeping the wider-ranging Trump family as is. Then Ancestry of Donald Trump should redirect to the "Ancestry" section here". If you've already proposed that somewhere on the three talk pages, then I've missed it. Wikishovel (talk) 21:30, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that I what I proposed on the various talk pages for the Trump family related articles, and which I very much support, but I may not have stated it as clearly. (that is, keeping Family of Donald Trump as an article on his immediate family and ancestry with the focus being on him, merging/redirecting Ancestry of Donald Trump into that article, and keeping Trump family as an article with a broader non-individual focus on the family as a whole) --Tataral (talk) 22:51, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
OK, then I will change from Support to Oppose per Tataral. Wikishovel (talk) 23:13, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Let me rephrase that: I'm changing from Support to Support alternate merge of Ancestry of Donald Trump with Family of Donald Trump, per Tataral and JFG. Wikishovel (talk) 14:25, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As this article has been completely rewritten and the original concerns regarding overlap in content has been addressed, and as the articles no longer overlap in a problematic way and have a different focus, and as the discussion has become stale, I have removed this template. --Tataral (talk) 14:15, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've restored the day-old merge templates. Please don't remove them again until the discussion has had more input from a wider range of editors Wikishovel (talk) 15:26, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • weak oppose, the "ancestry of Donald Trump" article is supposed to trace this individual's descent, also via his maternal line, while this article is supposed to discuss the German-American family in its entirety (including his father, grandfather and their various descendants who are not ancestory of Donald Trump). Please also note that there are still lots of people in the German Palatinate who are also descended from the 17th-century Trumps of Kallstadt, not to mention lots of other Germans with the surname who are not descended from the 17th-century winegrower of Kallstadt. --dab (𒁳) 15:54, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support merging Trump family into Ancestry of Donald Trump, but convert Trump family to a redirect to Family of Donald Trump for that will overwhelmingly be the primary usage of that term. - CHAMPION (talk) (contributions) (logs) 22:14, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: We now have a third article called Family of Donald Trump, which has the identical content as Ancestry of Donald Trump. If anything should be merged, it would be Family of Donald Trump and Ancestry of Donald Trump, both of which are focused individually on Donald Trump, not this article (Trump family) which isn't specifically about the individual Donald Trump and his immediate family/ancestors but about a well established family with many previous famous members who are not necessarily ancestors of Donald Trump, some of whom are only distant relatives of Donald (whose existence doesn't trump the existence of the established, centuries old family as a whole). The proposal to merge the content of this article into Ancestry of Donald Trump is wholly inappropriate as it isn't at all about the ancestry of Donald Trump. --Tataral (talk) 23:24, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Check out Family of Barack Obama. The Trump family article is about the history of the Trump surname, starting from Drumpf in Germany etc. The Family of Donald Trump (same as Obama) is about the people directly linked to the President and the First Family. User1937 (talk) 00:48, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There's got to be a way to whittle the article count on this family down from three. Wikishovel (talk) 01:14, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, especially since some of the facts in the three articles are inconsistent. Also some of the content of the three articles is repeated in a fourth article, Donald Trump.--FeralOink (talk) 04:46, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe merge some of ancestry into here and definitely support merge family of Donald Trump into here. This page is on people from his father's side of the family while the ancestry article is on both parents' sides. This one follows the patrilineal line much further than the ancestry article does. Family of Donald Trump on the other hand doesn't offer anything new and is just his immediate family and paternal grandparents. Snuggums (talk / edits) 01:00, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • It seems reasonable to have an article on the Family of Donald Trump covering his immediate family in more depth than what is natural in this article. For example, it seems likely at this point that an article on his son Barron Trump will be merged into Family of Donald Trump. It would be inappropriate to have all this material about a 10-year old kid with no independent notability in this broader family article, but more natural to have it in an article more specifically about the "first family" with Donald Trump in focus (and such an article can also cover people who are in his family but not part of/descendants of the Trump family as such). It is possible that some of the content in the Family of Donald Trump article still needs some work. --Tataral (talk) 14:43, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Focus of opening sentence

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The opening sentence was just changed to "a prominent German-American family, descended from Friedrich (Frederick) Trump (1869–1918)". Many sources point out how Donald Trump is related to another family member, Henry J. Heinz (his father, whose mother was born Trump, emigrated to the US). I'm aware of the fact that Americans tend to believe that everything started in America, but this article should have a broader focus than just Frederick Trump and his descendants. --Tataral (talk) 16:04, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Also, now the wording of another part of the lead referring to Heinz has changed to "a famous descendant of the German Trump family", which makes it seem as if this was a different family, when it was the same family (as frequently discussed in sources). --Tataral (talk) 16:08, 11 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Drumpf surname.

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While reading D.J.T's book, I found that he mentions the surname of Drumpf. In his statement, he states: A writer named Gwenda Blair spent twelve years on her thorough history, The trumps: Three Generations That Built an Empire. According to D.J.T in 1608 one of his ancestors – a lawyer – named Hanns Drumpf changed the family name. Therefore, I purpose we add this source to the section identifying name spelling variations. I noticed that someone in the edit history had undid past edits adding this, so if we add that D.J.T. stated this is in fact true, perhaps this will ease some people's concerns over it being "fake news" and help them understand it is in fact a valid spelling variation. In fact, it might be helpful to specify that this Gwenda Blair found this surname, and actually put in the text that he mentioned this in his book – for those who will undoubtably not look at the sources, even though I am providing a link for the book online. We could also add the Snopes link as another source, just to try and reassure people even more, considering the current issue with "fake news" online. A.Abney-King (talk) 14:42, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@A.Abney-King: This issue was discussed at Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 54#Ancestry text and origin of last name. Turns out that everybody's name in Trump's German lineage was consistently spelled "Trump" for 3 centuries. There was apparently a transcription error on his grandfather's immigration papers as "Trumpf" but he was always called "Trump" during his life in the U.S. The only possible use of the "Drumpf" variant was the 1608 mention, but most names were fluid at that time in Europe, and we can't rely on their spelling. — JFG talk 18:14, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should use the Drumpf name for the grandfather and going all the way back. Snopes says it was changed by his grandfather. cite: <ref>https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/donald-drumpf/Cite error: The opening <ref> tag is malformed or has a bad name (see the help page). Henrysteinberger (talk) 22:27, 10 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should add the offices held by trump family members just like bush and clinton articles — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.176.167.125 (talk) 17:38, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In southern Germany (where Kallstadt is sited), the p-consonant in the name Trump might indeed have been pronounced as "pf", since the High German consonant shift (from p to pf, f) is more progressive in southern Germany than it is in the north. For example, the word Apfel (engl. apple) is pronounced Appel in northern German dialects. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.16.144.121 (talk) 17:19, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Surname in Germany

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The current introduction states that the surname can be found throughout Germany. That is not the case. It is a relatively rare surname in Germany. Currently there are only around 1000 people in Germany with this surname. The following map shows that the surname can only be found in few regions, among them the region around Kallstadt, where the Trump family originates: http://www.verwandt.de/karten/relativ/trump.html I suggest this to be changed in the introduction. 80.71.142.166 (talk) 21:21, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think it means that the name is found in different regions not that it is a common name. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:45, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe that should be made a bit clearer? The surname can actually be found in very few regions in Germany. 130.226.41.20 (talk) 11:36, 11 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Assumed arms

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Are assumed arms by Donald Trump pertinent here for an article about the family as a whole? The set added don't even seem to be the ones he's commonly been associated with. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/28/business/trump-coat-of-arms.html

Further those arms appear in fact to be the arms of his golf course in Scotland

http://www.deadlinenews.co.uk/2012/01/17/donald-trump-at-last-awarded-the-scottish-coat-of-arms/ Heliotom (talk) 11:04, 3 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No "head"

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The parameter "head" doesn't belong in this infobox. The "headship" concept only exists in some royal and noble families, and has no meaning for an ordinary family of commoners with no special status. In any event, there is nothing that makes Donald Trump the "head" of his relatives who live in Germany, or the US for that sake. A family headship, where such a concept even exists, is almost always inherited by agnatic-primogeniture descent. Even if we ignore the Trump family in Germany and only consider family branch in the US, the US Trump family's head would be Frederick Christ Trump (born 1963), the son of Donald Trump's older brother. --Tataral (talk) 09:39, 23 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:22, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Religious Affiliation

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The Church of the Palatinate was formed in 1818 when the Lutheran and the Reformed branch united. So at least from onwards Christian Johannes Trump all would have been plain Protestant and not either Lutheran or Reformed. The Union in the Palatinate was a confessional union, not a mere administrational union like in Prussia, where you still had Lutheran and Reformed branches afterwards, cf. also here in History: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Church_of_the_Palatinate There should even be written down somewhere whether the Trump family members voted in favor of the union or against it 87.139.165.177 (talk) 12:51, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Trump family's ancestral home

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The Trump family's ancestral home. Please check the picture. The pictured house "Weinkastell Zum Weissen Ross" has nothing to do with the Trump family.

Here is a picture of the ancestral home https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Trump_Geburtshaus.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Luftfahrer (talk • contribs) 12:17, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 24 June 2020

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In the section listing out the family tree, it has Fred Trump Sr.'s first son Fred Trump II who has a son, Fred Trump III and a daughter Mary Trump. The article about Mary Trump appears to be about that woman. However, Fred Trump III's daughter Mary L. Trump (b. 1992) appears to have the hyperlink. I believe Mary Trump the daughter of Fred Trump II is the author of the upcoming book about the family money. 2A02:8084:2843:3A80:1879:F95F:589:D6BC (talk) 16:11, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 20:39, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Family Tree error

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Mary L. Trump is incorrectly shown as being the daughter of Frederick Christ Trump III, who is her brother. She is the daughter of Frederick Christ Trump, Jr.

I hope someone will fix this... I would attempt it but don't feel comfortable messing with Wikipedia.

Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wildbirdy (talk • contribs) 18:26, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

New facts for the Family Tree gleaned from Mary L. Trump's book, Too Much and Never Enough

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Can someone with permissions to edit and the skills not to mess it up make the following changes please:

  • Frederick Christ Trump Sr.'s oldest son, and his subsequent grandson, both named for him, actually spell their names Frederick Crist Trump. Frederick Jr., known as Freddy, therefore was Frederick Crist Trump, Jr., and Frederick III, known as Fritz, therefore is Frederick Crist Trump, III.
  • Mary L. Trump (born 1965), author of the book, married and divorced a woman with whom she has a daughter called Avary (who, alongside Avary's grandfather Freddy, Mary dedicated her book to).
  • John W. Walter (born 1934), married to Joan, passed away in January 2018.
  • Mary L. Trump (born 1965)'s middle name is Lea (this comes from public records according to her new personal Wikipedia page, not from the book, to be clear)


Arctucrus (",) 13:30, 22 August 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arctucrus (talk • contribs)

Nevermind, I figured it out; I'm smarter than I thought I was 10 minutes ago

Arctucrus (",) 13:36, 22 August 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arctucrus (talk • contribs)

Will these references help with the Genealogical table?

Merge proposal

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I propose that this page be merged into Family of Donald Trump. The main discussion will take place at that destination page.

Mrbeastmodeallday (talk) 22:20, 3 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support merge. These separate articles are redundant. However, I think the merged article should retain the name Trump family, and the religion and history sections from this article should appear in the merged article. Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 04:51, 4 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Iamreallygoodatcheckers, I don't particularly care whether this page is merged into Family of Donald Trump or vice versa, just as long as there's only one page. It would make more sense, IMO, to merge this one into Family of DT. The only reason the pages exist is because of that particular Trump. This page was created in 2006, at the time of Trump's Apprentice fame, and then lay dormant until 2016 when the other one was created. Sections of this page were copied from the other one, and parts of the Trump_family#Family_tree are violations of the privacy of non-public figures, including children. We probably don't need to transfer much info from this page into the other one, which already contains most of it. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 15:33, 4 May 2022 (UTC) Copied these two comments to Talk:Family_of_Donald_Trump#Merger_proposal, can't figure out how to continue the discussion on this talk page anyway. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 10:47, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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