Talk:Killing of Yahya Sinwar/Archive 1

Archive 1

Requesting grammar fix

"When their drone spotted three gunmen leaving a building, the soldiers fired upon them, not knowing that Sinwar is among them." That should be "not knowing Sinwar was among them." 2401:7000:CA09:4700:1902:711E:9B10:A0A5 (talk) 18:00, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

 Done; thanks for the suggestion! Sdkb ^talk 18:08, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

"gunmen" needs change or context

The term "gunmen" implies that these three were engaged in a gun-related crime or terrorist act. The article gives no context that shows that they used their weapons prior to being fired upon. It needs to provide that context or use a more neutral term (like "men"). 74.136.155.216 (talk) 00:44, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

 Done - changed to "militants" Imconfused3456_talk 03:09, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Pics

Hi. Im from Israel. On news channel appeared pics confirming body of dead Sinwar, so he is 100% dead. Can add this to article? 46.116.159.109 (talk) 15:29, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done Please provide sources on this Abo Yemen✉ 15:53, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not defending Sinwar or anything, but I find it a bit jarring that this page was created before his death was even officially confirmed. If Israel ultimately denies his death, Wikipedia will look rather silly. :) Psychloppos (talk) 16:16, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Sources on his death already exist and if for the highly unlikely chance that it appears that this is just IDF propaganda, we can just AfD this article Abo Yemen✉ 16:45, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes of course, but I just find it surprising that we created this article before we could even be sure (as I write it has been confirmed so that's fine) Psychloppos (talk) 17:24, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Welcome to the milhist side of wikipedia Abo Yemen✉ 17:31, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Not confirmed

the article claims the DNA has been confirmed to be Sinwar, it cites 2 sources both of which only report that testing is to take place. Neither claim there ist confirmation by DNA this should be corrected 2A02:3037:269:7676:A860:48F:243C:6510 (talk) 15:55, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Abo Yemen✉ 15:58, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Analysis section

Moved from User talk:Abo Yemen § Analysis section

 – Abo Yemen✉ 16:38, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Please restore the "Analysis" section as it has been confirmed that Sinwar is the dead person who was photographed. EpicAdventurer (talk) 16:15, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. Fences&Windows 20:26, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Executed > Killed

It is inappropriate to say that he was "executed". He was killed in a firefight. 2001:8003:3443:E000:6DC6:E7D8:6005:9095 (talk) 04:52, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done - I assume you are referring to its use in the infobox? In this case executed is used as "the units that executed the operation" - see this comment Imconfused3456_talk 15:40, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Assassination

Killing of Yahya Sinwar > Assassination of Yahya Sinwar 178.81.55.110 (talk) 16:04, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Abo Yemen✉ 16:09, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

See my comment above under Article name ASUKITE 16:10, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

sorry for duplicate 178.81.55.110 (talk) 16:18, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely not. He was killed with his face covered during a military engagement. LesbianTiamat (troll/pester) 22:32, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Location of Sinwar’s death.

Coordinates are listed to be in central Rafah. He died in a building in Tel Al Sultan, in 31.3055, 34.2467

source: Geolocation Source: Stinky1300 (talk) 03:24, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Add Israeli casualties

One IDF troop severely injured Deus vult fratres! (talk) 11:28, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Abo Yemen✉ 11:36, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/hjs8oyjlje#autoplay

Here you go :/ Deus vult fratres! (talk) 17:56, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

This article is used as a reference on the same page. Deus vult fratres! (talk) 17:57, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

FYI its not my job to look for references to verify requested additions. Anyways some other user added it to the infobox

Abo Yemen✉ 14:18, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

I know I just added the :/ face because it took me half an hour to find where I read it Deus vult fratres! (talk) 15:56, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Hamas confirmation of his death

@Sportsnut24 please revert your edit as Hamas has confirmed his death; see https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/10/18/live-israel-says-hamas-chief-yahya-sinwar-killed-war-on-gaza-to-continue Abo Yemen✉ 12:50, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Sinwar's Autopsy (updates)

According to Dr. Chen Kugel, who operated on Sinwar's body, the death was caused by a bullet that Penetrated Sinwar's brain and caused a severe damage. The first recognition was indeed made by dentists (who said it's a 100% recognition), but for the final absolute recognition, a DNA test was needed - a test that was possible because Sinwar was a prisoner in Israel. So they cut a finger from the body and sent it the Abu Kabir Forensic Institute, and the test was made. After the recognition they made a CT to the body, and Dr. Kugel and his staff made an autopsy until about midnight. Source: Sinwar's autopsy in the Israeli Public Broadcasting Corporation — "Kan". לידך, בלעדייך (talk) 14:03, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Inaccurate statement in introduction

"At some point, Sinwar was shot in the head but did not immediately die."

The above statement should probably read "was shot in the lower arm", unless a citation can be provided with evidence to the contrary. I'd speculate that this was a misreading or mishearing of "shot in the hand", because the injuries to Sinwar's head identified in the aftermath don't appear to have been compatible with life, and would thus have had to have occurred after the initial skirmish and subsequent drone video. An injury to what appears to be the forearm region does appear to be visible in the drone video. Iceman 259 (talk) 17:15, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

No, he was definitely shot in the head. The images are widely available. It's almost impossible to believe that he was up and about after that massive gaping head wound though. I'm removing that sentence, because it's uncited and sounds unlikely. Bueller 007 (talk) 20:23, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Not disagreeing with that, just the chronology implied by the paragraph. Cheers. Iceman 259 (talk) 21:44, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Article name

Should the term Assassination be used instead of Killing? Abo Yemen✉ 15:54, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

We also have the flowchart at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (violence and deaths), which goes into some detail and can be useful for these situations - there is no mention (and thusly no consensus, on that page anyways) for use of "Assassination" - the bar for that would be significant use of the term in reliable sources, as noted in this essay: Wikipedia:Assassination ASUKITE 16:06, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I'll wait to see what most sources say once his death is confirmed before I open an RM Abo Yemen✉ 16:09, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

We should check the rationale which led to choosing the name Killing of Osama bin Laden and see which name would be more fitting here. Psychloppos (talk) 16:12, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Use of the term assassination typically requires the target to have been tracked down and the people doing the killing to know the identity of who they're going after at the time of the killing. Everything so far indicates that some Israeli soldiers got in a gunfight with some unidentified Hamas fighters, killed three, and when checking the bodies realized one might be Sinwar.

If they had gone in knowing it was Sinwar then the word assassination would make sense, but only learning he was there from identifying his body after the fact would negate most common uses of the term. 170.203.213.40 (talk) 19:10, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Agree. Moreover, if the term "assassination" is not used for the article about bin Laden's death even though the Americans were definitely going after him, then it shouldn't be used for this article either. Psychloppos (talk) 19:59, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_assassinations still calls the killing assassination. Is there any plans to change that page? 213.143.160.102 (talk) 02:55, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Assassination implies a targeted killing of a particular individual, this however was completely coincidental as the IDF had no previous information about sinwar's presence nor was the operation carried out specifically with the intention of eliminating him Waleed (talk) 01:20, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Images

why are there no images of him uploaded on Wikimedia Commons? did the Israeli government not release any under a free license like usually do? Abo Yemen✉ 13:23, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

They released some drone footage. See c:Category:Killing of Yahya Sinwar. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 00:30, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

yeah i am the one who created that category and the video was uploaded before my message i think

Abo Yemen✉ 05:41, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

WikiProject banner changes

I removed the "serial killer" attribute from the WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography banner because this article is about the killing of a single person, not mass murder. However, I have left the main WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography banner because this person was a wanted on criminal charges at the time of his death. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 04:35, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

To avoid doubt, refer to the scope of the serial killer task force and the guideline WP:PROJSCOPE. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 07:22, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Events between drone sweep and recovery of body

The IDF soldiers "pulled back", sent in a drone, then... what? How did Sinwar end up dying of traumatic brain injury from a gunshot wound? Did he shoot himself? Did the soldiers rejoin the fight and start firing again? Did he suffer a gunshot wound to the head (presumably from a rifle) that didn't kill him, left his head intact and left him conscious and aware long enough to stare at a drone and hit it with a stick? Or did he collapse from his injuries, then IDF soldiers entered and shot him in the head to make sure he was dead? 100.40.29.68 (talk) 08:46, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Accurate Location

Accurate location for this deed of justice is 31°18'19.9"N 34°14'48.4"E

See https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/10/17/geolocating-site-where-hamas-leader-yahya-sinwar-was-killed/ Ebournoville (talk) 12:36, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Infobox

Shouldn't the infobox display the flag of Hamas as well as that of Israel under a "Belligerents" heading? This is the usual way to do things. See War of Jenkin's Ear for an example. Mjroots (talk) 16:21, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm curious about that, too, honestly. Initial reports, if not else, had stated that this wasn't a planned operation, and therefore wouldn't it be more prudent to use the "Template:Infobox military conflict" instead? — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 16:35, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

this article is not about a military conflict Abo Yemen✉ 16:42, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Why does it say "Executed by" instead of "Killed by" in the infobox?

Execution usually pertains to legal punishment. It especially doesn't make much sense because according to the reporting the Bislamach Brigade weren't specifically looking after Sinwar. "Killed by" is much more appropiate wording. Hexaltee (talk) 18:47, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Executed also means to carry out something, e.g. a plan or operation. In other words, "the operation that killed Sinwar was executed by the Bislamach Brigade." Chomik! (talk?) 19:06, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Which is not what happened because the plan was not to kill Sinwar and the "operation" was a routine patrol per the article. So the displayed name of this parameter is questionable. —Alalch E. 22:42, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Wouldn't it still be an operation? Many sources describe it as such, including the IDF itself. Chomik! (talk?) 23:47, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

The soldiers had orders to conduct a patrol of an area. An order given to a group of soldiers to act in a coordinated way and complete some task is arguably always an operation. But when we add an infobox with the title "Killing of Yahya Sinwar" and say that the killing was "executed by" the IDF, it can only be read as the orders given to the unit listed in the infobox having been to kill Sinwar, and the killing of Sinwar being the operation, but that was not the operation, as they did not know that they would encounter Sinwar, it was a chance encounter. So it's not optimal. But it's not a big deal. —Alalch E. 00:21, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

I have added the objective parameter to make the infobox more complete and remove any chance of confusion. —Alalch E. 00:42, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

The "executed by" parameter refers to the operation (not Sinwar). If it's confusing, it can be removed (since it's optional). M.Bitton (talk) 00:52, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I felt like removing it, but opted for the objective param, which explains it. —Alalch E. 01:33, 20 October 2024 (UTC)