This is an archive of past discussions about Mahsa Amini protests. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
Wikipedia should not claim Amini was killed or beaten by police in its own voice. This is a very serious accusation, which is also very seriously denied. Wikipedia should present both widely reported explanations, with attribution, or neither. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:22, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
I removed the text claiming Amini was killed or beaten in its own voice since it wasn't adequately sourced, feel free to fix or re-add pov tag if other issues arise. If mainstream sources state Amini was confirmed either killed or beaten, such statements can be re-added. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 03:15, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
No independent mainstream organisation is allowed to report from inside Iran. The only Media working from inside are state owned and unreliable. Therefore it is almost impossible to independently verify she was killed. At least report this fact for some context for Wikipedia readers. Furthermore, Amini's father has confirmed she has had no pre-existing heart or brain condition, which is contrary to what the state media said. 2003:C0:272E:ECB3:346D:D94:241A:DED7 (talk) 09:06, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
This was already included in the article about Death of Mahsa Amini. Regardless of what is actually true, Wikipedia can only put sourced information that is reasonably believed to be accurate. In case of conflict, all viewpoints must be included in the article with their relative weight. To discard certain sources of information entirely, you'd have to show a track record of those sources manipulating or falsifying information (using other more reliable sources of information, such as scientific publications in trusted journals or such). Ideophagous (talk) 14:04, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This protests are not only against police brutality, but also against the government. Plus, the protests are very violent and many people died. WikiManUser21 (talk) 16:11, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
If the protests go on for much longer, I think we'll probably have to switch to sections by sub-themes instead of by chronology.-- Ideophagous (talk) 07:45, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Dubious
Imams in Iran are not a monolothic group. The statement that All Imams of Friday Prayers expressed anger and demanded police enforcement may well be what's stated in the source, but it's rather dubious that they all demanded police enforcement (and, implicitly, that none of them called for police to allow peaceful protest and stop using violence); did the news source really get individual reports on the emotions and opinions expressed by all Friday Prayer imams in Iran? and verify that all demanded police enforcement? See Category:Iranian Shia clerics for some of the Wikipedia articles on individual Iranian Shia clerics, which should include some Imams of Friday Prayers. Boud (talk) 14:04, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
Most countries have some sort of legal system and a police + court system to discourage violations of the law, but nevertheless, the laws are violated by some people. "All obeyed" is usually dubious, especially when the number of people in "all" is big. Boud (talk) 14:35, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Thanks for pointing out that the number is not so big. If you really want to restore the text (it wasn't me who removed it) without the 'dubious' tag, I would still suggest using more careful wording, e.g. "The" instead of "All", which literally would tend to be interpreted to mean the same thing, but allows a "reasonable" interpretation rather than a strict "all" interpretation. Boud (talk) 15:37, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
"In response to the week-long protests over Amini's death, people all over Iran held demonstrations in support of the government."
Yet The Guardian source you used actually says this:[1]
Pro-government rallies have taken place in several cities across Iran in an attempt to counter a week of mounting unrest triggered by the death of a woman in police custody.
Proceeding further, you added:
"According to live state television broadcast, demonstrators chanted "Death to America" and "Death to Israel."
Yet The Guardian says this:
Marchers called for anti-government protesters to be executed, while the army signalled that it was prepared to crush dissent by telling Iranians that it would confront “the enemies” behind the unrest. Demonstrators condemned the anti-government protesters as “Israel’s soldiers”, live state television coverage showed. They also shouted “Death to America” and “Death to Israel”, common slogans the country’s clerical rulers use to try and stir up support for authorities, who claimed the demonstrations of support were spontaneous. “Offenders of the Qur’an must be executed,” the crowds chanted.
As per the evidence above, I think there are some WP:POV issues concerning the material you added, which should be addressed. Right now, it (perhaps unintentionally) seems as if you tried to pick the best of both worlds, that is, using a good source, whilst carefully omitting the part that sheds negative light on the government and its supporters. Thanks, - LouisAragon (talk) 12:44, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
I have reverted the addition per LouisAragon's comment, as this is a quite obvious misrepresentation of the source. I too, would like an explanation on this. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:11, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
Hi @Louis: Thanks for the heads up, then do you have any suggestions for adding the missing viewpoint on the marches against the anti-government protests? --Mhhosseintalk05:55, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
Hey, so I added in the header all of the names that she was known by from the Death of Mahsa Amini page, along with the written form of them in the respective languages. From my understanding that article has reached a consensus to keep all forms in the article but use "Mahsa Amini" as primary. If this is incorrect let me know thanks. Leaky.Solar (talk) 14:05, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
This information can be found on Mehsa's obituary page, which includes a sort of biography. There is no need to add all his names and.... on this page. This information is not helpful, even annoying, because it has nothing to do with the topic of the article Mitrayasna (talk) 16:59, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
His Kurdish name is very beautiful, just like his brother's name is beautiful, but this page is not related to his biography, there is this additional information on the death page of Mahsa Amini. Mitrayasna (talk) 18:43, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
I think there should be an agreement on this matter first, then your content will be added
You must understand that this page is not his biography. The content you want to add has nothing to do with our discussion and this information does not help English speakers, it just makes this article ugly and unreadable.
On Mahsa Amini's death page, impartial people removed his second name from the list for the same reason as I said above. But since there is no page of Mehsa Amini, his second name and... are still in the text of that page. That page is very different from the page protesting Ishlan's murder.
Also, in similar cases, Wikipedia does not have a process that edits you, and only their official or well-known names appear on pages other than their biographies.
@Leaky.Solar:Mitrayasna, I'm an English speaker, and I appreciate being able to know her Kurdish name. Why obscure or hide her name or ethnic background? Saying it makes the article "ugly and undreadable" is a subjective opinion, your own opinion only, and seems like a disingenuous argument, since you were against it being placed on the other article as well. Also, please stop referring to her as a guy, I'm not sure why you repeatedly misgender her.
You've also broken the 3RR by removing this content a total of 4 times in the past few hours. This can sometimes result in a temporary block/ban. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 19:24, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
This is not the case at all. We agreed on the page of Mehsa Amini's murder that his second name should be mentioned because it is related to his biography. This page has nothing to do with his biography. Non-Latin fonts cannot help English speakers much Mitrayasna (talk) 19:29, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
Again, that's not true at all. Why are you making this decision for all English speakers? I'm an English speaker, I find that it could be helpful when looking for news in other languages to do a search based on her Persian or Kurdish name, and to be able to do machine translations of that info. I think it's also useful to have more complete information.
What is your argument against mentioning the fact that she is Kurdish then, exactly? Because you removed that info too, without any explanation. Cheers. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 19:44, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
My final words are that this page is not his biography, and our agreement to add the second name and its fonts is specific to the page of Mehsa Amini's murder, and if it is to be done on this page as well, there must be a consensus. Mitrayasna (talk) 19:39, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
Hi @Mitrayasna would my confusion about all of this is why include only the Persian translation of her name on this page, as in your argument it is not a biography page about her, wouldn't that mean that all non-english versions of her name be not included as well. Personally I think that would limit the individuals understanding of her identity. If you want to reach a consensus again that's fine, but I think unneeded as the information was already agreed upon on another page.
Also as a more personal question, its my understanding that Mehsa is a woman is there a reason you are using "he/him" pronouns to discuss her name, honestly curious if its a translation thing. Leaky.Solar (talk) 19:43, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
This page is focused on the demonstrations, not Mehsa Amini. The content you are looking for is still available on the Mehsa Amini murder page. I should also mention that this page is a candidate to redirect to the September 2022 protests page Mitrayasna (talk) 19:46, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
Agreed about the point of identity. Mitrayasna doesn't seem to want to mention the fact that the woman who was murdered is Kurdish, for some reason, or so it would appear. I don't really understand regional politics, but it seems like the right thing to do to mention her ethnic background. Cheers. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 19:47, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
You are mixing the two pages of Mehsa Amiri's murder and the demonstrations against Mehsa Amiri's murder together. This is not useful. Whatever you want to know about Mahsa Amiri, you should go to the page of Mehsa Amiri's murder, which covers both his murder and his biography. This page is about the mass demonstrations after his murder, which is about separation. Mitrayasna (talk) 19:49, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
Would the information be better then represented in the Background section which is a blurb about the reason as too why the mass demonstrations erupted then? To limit the inclusion of all of names seems to cheapen the understanding of her as a person to the reader. I personally think that the inclusion of all of her names shows the cultural spread of the demonstrations and you can't guarantee that the reader will have the time/want to read both articles. Leaky.Solar (talk) 19:54, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
Agreed. It's okay to offer some background and details in this article as well. There is no guarantee that someone will read both articles. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 19:56, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
You just want to do what you like and not what is right because your reasoning is incomprehensible. Regarding many other things on Mahsa's death page, you can make the same argument and copy it on this demonstration page. Your argument is not helpful Mitrayasna (talk) 20:24, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
Of course, she was a young and lovely girl. Only my English is weak
However, I tried to explain to you the difference between biography and other things. I hope I have explained well that this page is related to Iran's demonstrations. thank you Mitrayasna (talk) 20:13, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
It is not necessary that there is a Persian font of her name
At the very beginning, there was a Farsi font of his name, then someone added the local font of Mehsa's second name, which I canceled several times. But I really don't agree that there should be a Persian font because it doesn't help Mitrayasna (talk) 20:02, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
It definitely does help (as I mentioned above, about being able to search for news in other languages)!
I'll mention it here as well, MOS:ETHNICITY; "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability." Cheers! --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:58, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
Right, but how does that apply to her name, exactly? It's okay to have her Kurdish name on the Death of Mahsa Amini page, but not here? Why is that? Since this seems contentious for whatever reason, maybe it's just better to put the info about her other names in the Background section of the article. Thoughts on that? Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 03:08, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
Involvement of the National Council of Iran (Pahlavi Dynasty)
Should the Pahlavi Dynasty sponsored National Council of Iran be included? For example, in the protesters goals page, should we add the restoration of the Shahdom (Imperial State of Iran) considering most of the protesters expressed nostalgia for Mohamed Reza Shah and his dynasty VosleCap (talk) 16:19, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
Do you have a reliable source confirming that most protestors want the Shah back? So far as I know, there are Iranian monarchists among the protestors, but also anti-monarchists.-- Ideophagous (talk) 20:35, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
Adding a "Result" section to the infobox
Adding such section seems necessary to me, as one significant event the has been caused by the protests is the brutal bombing that happened just a few hours ago on Northern Iraq by the IRGC. See 2022 Koya drone bombing
The table documents casualty events. I don't see how you propose to draw causal relationships between casualty events and protests and military actions. Elizium23 (talk) 20:43, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
I don't understand you're point. I'm only saying we have a "Caused by" and a "Goals" section in the summary table, and we can add a "Resulted in" as well, to add a military action which the IRGC has decided to conduct as a result to the protest. See Euromaidan article for example. It lists Russia-Ukraine conflict as a result of the protests in the summary table. Nicxjo (talk) 21:02, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
Yes, sorry for that. I think this bombing, alongside permanent banning of several social media (Instagram Whatsapp, etc) could be listed in that section. Nicxjo (talk) 21:10, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
Where are photos and mention of Pro-hijab protests in Iran?
Counter-protests are already mentioned in the article. Images have to be free (licensed under CC-BY-SA 3.0 or another free license), and any images are hard to get at the moment, let alone free images. Firestar464 (talk) 02:28, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
More rections
Please someone place Mexico and Chile in the international reactions.
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 September 2022
This edit request to Mahsa Amini protests has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
The MRI and cat scan of Mahsa Amini is not showing any abnormalities. This content wrongfully claims that it showed significant foul play which is unverified and according to social media account which doesn't have any formal qualification or required medical knowledge to claim so. Nigahiga69 (talk) 04:29, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
In the last decade, clothing in Iranian society underwent significant changes, and young women in particular tend to be more liberal about hijab rules, this is speculation and such should not be used in a wikipedia article Nigahiga69 (talk) 04:36, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
It was expanded in its earliest use in previous times, so I suspect it was inadvertantly removed during an edit, and should be replaced. I defer to an editor already well trusted for this sensitive page. Cheers! --H Bruce Campbell (talk) 03:20, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
The correct way to start a Requested move discussion is by following the instructions at WP:RM. These unofficial discussions are not usually helpful and confuse things. — Amakuru (talk) 09:00, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I think that we should change the title of the page, something like 'September 2022 Iranian Protests'.
"Mahsa Amini" protests just sound weird, her death wasn't the only reason the protests started anyway, it was also mandatory hijab since 1979. Anyway, I don't know how to change the title. So, anyone? AradTheSimp (talk) 23:39, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
I would suggest it be changed to something like “2022 Iranian unrest” and I agree with you that Mahsa Amini’s death isn’t the only thing they’re uprising against. Thotianaa (talk) 02:02, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
As already mentioned, a lot of news sources are calling the recent events "Mahsa Amini Protests", so the title seems appropriate. Just Google that title between quotes (to get an exact match) and you'll see how many results you get. If more reliable literary sources on the event are written in the future, and they agree to use a different name to the current protests, the title can be change accordingly.-- Ideophagous (talk) 10:21, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
Comment. This is probably the 3rd or 4th time someone requests this. First, what you suggested was the original title of the article actually, and it was moved to the current title. Second, if you check most sources, they're using "Mahsa Amini protests" to distinguish them from other protests this year and earlier. You only need to do a Google search for an exact match with "September 2022 Iranian protests" and "Mahsa Amini Protests" and compare how many results you get. We can only go by what the sources say.-- Ideophagous (talk) 23:33, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
Mildly oppose, for now. both titles comply with WP:ARTICLETITLE. WP:COMMONNAME is hard to apply here, since we don't have historical records yet and most sources are just calling them as something like "the current protests, which (are about/were triggered by) the death of a woman in custody who was detained for breaking hijab laws", but "the Mahaa Amini protests" seems like a good shortening of this. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 01:10, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
List of named casualties
Is a list of casualties with their names really necessary? Almost every one of them is not notable. I’m pretty sure this is even against WP policies like WP:BLP. I know that mzny projects have a general consensus not to include such lists on articles detailing events with fatalities. Tvx1 13:26, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
I don't know if this is against policy or not, but it seems that if the number of those killed becomes great enough, that it would merit its own article: "List of those killed during the Mahsa Amini protests" or something like that. Cheers. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 19:26, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
Still don't see the point of listing a bunch of non-notable people. Moreover, the quantity of fatalities has nowhere near reached the extent of the 2019 protests. Tvx1 09:59, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
Nika Shakarami/Shahkarami: body stolen and buried by authorities after her killing following protests
Probably notable for the article here, if anybody with edit privileges would like to make a mention.
Iran: Teen protester Nika Shakarami's body stolen, sources say (BBC) "Iranian security forces stole the body of a 16-year-old protester, and buried her secretly in a village, sources close to the family told BBC Persian. The family had planned to bury Nika Shakarami on Monday, but her body was snatched and buried in a village about 40km (25 miles) away, the sources said. Nika went missing for 10 days after protesting in Tehran on 20 September ... Nika's family finally found her body in a morgue at a detention centre in the capital. 'When we went to identify her, they didn't allow us to see her body, only her face for a few seconds,' said Atash Shakarami, Nika's aunt. Nika's family transferred her body to her father's hometown of Khorramabad in the west of the country on Sunday - on what would have been her 17th birthday. Under duress the family agreed not to hold a funeral but security forces 'stole' Nika's body from Khorramabad and buried it in the village of Veysian, one source said ... Hadis' sisters say she was shot in the head and neck with live ammunition and also birdshot fired from a shotgun. Two pictures of her body show birdshot wounds. 'They wouldn't return the body for two days, asking her father to say she had died of a heart attack out of fear,' two sources close to the family told BBC Persian. In a final video message Hadis sent to her friends, which BBC Persian obtained, she says: 'I hope in a few years when I look back, I will be happy that everything has changed for the better.' She was shot dead almost an hour after recording this message, her family said."
Iranian schoolgirls give clerical leaders the finger as they join uprising against the regime (The Telegraph) "Footage has emerged of a group of schoolchildren in the city of Karaj near Tehran chasing an education official off the premises as they hurled empty water bottles at him and chanted 'shame on you'. It came as the BBC reported that Iranian security forces secretly buried the body of a 16-year-old protester far from her village after she disappeared for ten days. In a last message to her friends, Nika Shakarami had said she was being pursued by security forces. Her relatives told the BBC that when they went to identify Nika's body they were only allowed to briefly see her face, raising suspicions that she may have been killed by the authorities. Security forces then 'stole' the body and buried it in a faraway village, relatives said."
Iran's president calls for national unity as anti-government protests spread (Australia Broadcasting Corp) "The recent death of a 17-year-old girl in Tehran, however, has unleashed an outpouring of anger on Iranian social media. Nika Shahkarami, who lived in the capital with her mother, vanished one night last month during the protests in Tehran, her uncle Kianoush Shakarami told the semiofficial Tasnim news agency. She was missing for a week before her lifeless body was found in a Tehran street and was returned to her family, Tasnim reported, adding relatives had not received official word on how she died. Foreign-based Iranian activists allege she died in police custody, with hundreds circulating her photo online and using her name as a hashtag for the protest movement. The prosecutor in the western Lorestan province, Dariush Shahoonvand, denied any wrongdoing by authorities and said she was buried in her village on Monday."
We can only be in awe of young women such as Nika Shakarami (The Independent) "With family ties to Iran's southwestern city of Khorramabad, she was just shy of 17 years old when she took part in a 20 September protest in Tehran sparked by the death of 22-year-old Mahsa Amini, the young woman who was killed after being arrested by the morality police. Shakarami went missing. Her family looked for her for days, searching for clues at police stations and hospitals. They posted messages on social media. But like Amini, Shakarami never made it home alive. Regime officials delivered her badly damaged body, with stitches and signs of physical assault, on 29 September. Authorities provided no explanation and not a single measure of accountability for the death of the young woman. Adding flagrant insult to injury, regime officials grabbed her body from the mortuary and buried her against the family's wishes in a village, in an apparent attempt to avoid a politically charged funeral march. The family and her supporters tried to hold one anyway, and were met with regime gunmen firing birdshot ... Shakarami's grieving mother can be seen on 3 October in viral media, defiantly speaking out for her dead daughter. 'Today was your birthday, my dear!' she says through unimaginable pain, her headscarf off. 'Today I say congratulations on your martyrdom!' "
We only write all letters in capital when the word is an English acronym; for example: IAEA, which is the abbreviated form of International Atomic Energy Agency. But FARAJA isn't an English language acronym. It is Persian: (فراجا) (فرماندهی انتظامی جمهوری اسلامی). So I think Faraja is correct. Aminabzz (talk) 18:40, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 October 2022 (2)
This edit request to Mahsa Amini protests has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
The way you are writing the timeline seems to me very much biased in favour of the Iranian Government:
All quotes are from Iranian government sources, and not much from the people.
These are protests that are involving hundreds of thousands of people, especially the youngest generations. There are no voices of them in the timeline. Teoporta (talk) 07:39, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
But there is no centralized leadership/representative of the people, so I don't see how Wikipedia could possibly quote them if they aren't unified RisingTzar (talk) 09:20, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
I understand that, being not centralized, it is hard or even pointless to quote someone. On the other hand, ALL of the protesters share the same message, which should be reported in here somehow, I think.
Example: Khamenei says that the protests are being organized by USA or some other foreign power... well... as it is obviously something he is making up just to deny any wrongdoing of his government, and the despair of Iranian people, THAT should be mentioned. "Although he said something, according to all other observers, facts are something else."
Also, the mention of the worldwide protests that took place on October 1st doesn't show the whole picture... protests occurred in more than 150 cities worldwide... from Japan to Europe to America...
The act of him saying something is notable, and is thus quoted. I think it's pretty clear already what the protesters are standing for. Also, I will decline your request as it isn't clear what changes you want to make. Please state your changes in an X to Y format. Firestar464 (talk) 02:37, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 October 2022
This edit request to Mahsa Amini protests has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Public hair cutting to protest Islamic totalitarianism
A global trend has started with celebrities and politicians protesting the rule of ayatollahs in Iran where participants cut their hair publicly. It's spreading like a wildfire.
Recall EU Ambassadors from Iran, protesting the government's increasing crackdown and in solidarity with the people".[1]
Maryam Rajavi wrote on her official social media, "I salute the martyrs of the nationwide #Iranprotests who laid down their lives for freedom. They symbolize their people's will to overthrow the mullahs and establish democracy in Iran. I urge the youth to rise up to secure the release of those arrested & support their families."[2]
Reza Pahlavi, and Maryam Rajavi are notable historical individuals. You don't have to allow Fourth Estate gatekeepers at BBC (BBC controversies) to make the call on whether or not to give them a voice.
Italy: Italian lawmakerGiorgia Meloni wrote, "Mahsa died from being beaten after she was arrested by the Iranian religious police, just because a lock of hair came out of her veil."[3] She also expressed support for the Iranian revolt against the Islamist regime.[4]
To apply WP:BLPSPS and WP:BLPCRIME, among others: these are contentious claims about a third party. These are claims about an event not directly related to Meloni. Amini is recently-deceased and so WP:BDP applies. If no WP:SECONDARY sources cover Meloni's Tweet then it is WP:UNDUE for inclusion, just like the above discussion and the other Tweets we've removed. Elizium23 (talk) 16:25, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
Most of what is on here looks like Western propaganda supporting this when there is clear CCTV footage if Mahsa Amini dying of a heart attack. I don't understand why Wikipedia is now full of pro-Western propaganda. Please fix this article somehow please. Muhafiz-e-Pakistan (talk) 14:32, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
Isn't it ironic that you're so vehemently anti-western (also seen here [5][6][7]), yet here you are, writing in English in a website founded in the United States of America? Wikipedia is a not a WP:SOAPBOX where you can showcase your anti-Western sentiments. Also, there's nothing wrong with the neutrality of this article (at least overall), I would highly advise you to read WP:POV very carefully. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:00, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
This is a pretty bad argument - people can criticise Western bias on a website even if it was founded in the US or uses the English language. We are supposed to be a global encyclopedia. However, unless there is good evidence to suggest this is happening on this page rather than a gut feeling, we can't do anything about it. As has been discussed ad nauseam in discussions of this type (and mentioned above), we follow what reliable sources say and are not here to promote a particular point of view in order to right great wrongs as one sees them. "Please fix this article somehow please" - please be more specific than this... -- QueenofBithynia (talk) 20:05, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
The footage was mentioned in the original article, and so was further evidence indicating she may have been brutally beaten, especially on the head, resulting in a fractured skull. While the tone of the article can certainly be improved, it does bring up all relevant information from multiple perspectives as per WP:POV. Is there some specific piece of information or prominent opposing point of view you find missing? -- Ideophagous (talk) 20:13, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
Upon checking the Mahsa Amini article again, it seems that an explicit mention of the footage released by the Iranian authorities was removed. But the version of the events by the authorities is definitely mentioned regardless.--Ideophagous (talk) 20:20, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
Reactions
Can sanctions be merged into the reactions section? They seem like a form of reaction, and the material is somewhat related and redundant. Likewise there are international reactions such as support protests mentioned in the timeline, maybe those can be pulled out and organized together as well. - Indefensible (talk) 05:12, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
Oppose. The sanctions section is likely to expand in the future (German foreign minister also alluded to sanctions against Iran, adding to US and Canada sanctions), and should therefore probably be separate.-- Ideophagous (talk) 19:55, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
@Caravaneternity: That title doesn't really match the usual Wikipedia format, and is also ambiguous because there were protests earlier in the year too. The article was originally at September 2022 Iranian protests but it was moved to this title last week, and I personally think it's more descriptive and recognisable. If you really want to pursue a move, then WP:RM is the place to go. Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 09:47, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
I changed the short description (shortdesc) to "Current (since September 2022) Iranian protests". One ongoing problem is that external search engines like Google are pointing "Iran protests" to the 2021-2 protest page, when what most current searchers are looking for is these Mahsa Amini protests. We'll see if the new shortdesc helps. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 23:23, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
The problem with the current title is that the protests are no longer just about Mahsa Amini, but the people of Iran are demanding basic human rights and a fundamental change in the government. Furthermore the protests have been further sparked by new victims (in addition to Mahsa Amini) such as Nika Shakarami and a wave of arrests of political activists such as Majid Tavakoli, Hossein Ronaghi, Niloofar Hamedi, Jadi Mirmirani, etc. So as the events unfold, the current title becomes more inadequate. BlueBlack (talk) 01:56, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
This page, when it was created, was called September 2022 Iranian protests. It was moved without discussion to Mahsa Amini protests on 22 September. Since then, a number of editors have objected to the new title. I have moved the page back to it's original title; our global consensus is that when someone makes a bold page move and it's reverted, we have a WP:RM to decide the page title. Anyone who thinks this page should be changed from its original title should open up an WP:RM. Levivich (talk) 17:33, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Moved. There is overwhelming consensus to move the page, based on WP:TITLE and WP:COMMONNAME. There are also numerous examples of reputable media outlets referring to these as the "Mahsa Amini protests." Some oppose comments suggest terms that are not commonly used (ie. "2022 Iranian revolution") or don't make a compelling argument for keeping it as "September." If we look at the Wikidata item and see the titles from other Wikipedia language editions, using "September" in the title is not common, and most are using titles similar in form to "Mahsa Amini protests." Better to close this now, as there is no need to prolong things. Fuzheado | Talk19:33, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
Support. The term "Mahsa Amini Protests" is the one most media outlets are using. It's the recent move back by @Levivich: that I find questionable. Just because some editors are complaining does not mean we should oblige.-- Ideophagous (talk) 19:19, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
@Levivich: A simple Googling using exact words (with double quotations):
"mahsa amini protests": 380.000 results
"2022 iranian protests": 1820 results
"September 2022 Iranian protests": 719 results
Of course, these search results are not in themselves a reliable or independent source, and cannot be used within the article to justify the use of a specific title, but we have no other reliable criteria to apply for a perfect decision, and I think the prevalence of the first option is a sufficient reason. Also the fact that the majority so far are against your moving the article, and support "Mahsa Amini protests" as an appropriate title. Even if you felt justified in moving the article, you should have reopened a discussion first.--Ideophagous (talk) 20:05, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
I agree that Levivich's move doesn't make sense. An informal proposal on 24 September to move it back from Mahsa Amini protests to the current title was unanimously opposed before being closed by Amakuru a week later for being out of process (i.e. missing the RM template). ansh.66619:31, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
I support the current title (September 2022 Iranian protests), or similar wording to this. Many sources simply refer to these as "protests" in the first instance (while mentioning Mahsa Amini as the cause later on). This is also consistent with a number of similar articles listed at the Iran protests disambiguation page. – QueenofBithynia (talk) 20:11, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
There was no consensus at #Requested_move_24_September_2022, or at #Requested move 27 September 2022. Despite those threads being titled "Requested move", they were not proper WP:RMs. This is confirmed by Amakuru's closing statement, which calls them "unofficial discussions." The move from "September 2022 Iranian protests" to "Mahra Amini protests" was a WP:BOLD move (no WP:RM) on 22 September that was reverted (multiple times) and objected-to by multiple editors. Once the WP:BOLD move was challenged, the article should have returned to the original title ("September 2022 Iranian protests"). That it was re-moved to the new title was a mistake, which I've corrected. Because the BOLD move was challenged, any move should be done via RM. I'm glad that this RM is now underway.
The above is true for any page move. But in this case, it's especially true, because we cannot name a protest movement after a recently-deceased person without being on very solid ground with regards to sources and WP:COMMONNAME. As the WP:V policy says, "exceptional claims require exceptional sources". Naming this article about a protest movement after a specific person, based on a BOLD move that was improperly restored, over the objection of multiple editors, with no actual talk page discussion or consensus (and, most importantly, no analysis of sources that I can see), would violate the spirit (and letter) of our policies. Maybe "Mahsa Amini protests" is, indeed, the WP:COMMONNAME or otherwise the best title per our WP:AT policy, but if that is the case, we need to discuss and decide it by consensus, and not by WP:FAITACCOMPLI. I think we are now on the proper track, with the article at its original title, and this RM proposing the move underway. Levivich (talk) 20:44, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
Mildly support Very funny Anon. But I do think that moving this back to the Mahsa Amini protests, should be appropriate. As the protests are still continuing despite we are in the first week of October, but in general both names are fine for the time being.
However, I do think that we should first carry out the correct protocols instead of not reaching consensus as @Levivich said above, there is no consensus for the previous 2 move requests, only 4 people have "voted". But due to it being closed early and not reaching consensus I think we should carry on the discussion here and not move it until a community consensus has been reached. Randomdudewithinternet (talk) 21:23, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
Support under the naturalness and recognisability criteria at WP:TITLE, e.g. The Guardian, 6 Oct 2022, "protests over Mahsa Amini's death ... Protests erupted across Iran over the death of Mahsa Amini". Most sources attribute the trigger event of the protests as the authorities' killing of Mahsa Amini. There have already been many bursts of protests in Iran in the last decade or so - Mahsa Amini's name currently seems to be a better recognised identifier than the date. Often people distinguish names better than dates, e.g. the Arab Spring rather than the 2011 Arab world protests. Boud (talk) 22:51, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
Support This title is additionally a common thread between English and Persian sources. "ادامه اعتراضات به کشته شدن مهسا امینی" "Edāme-ye Eʿterāżāt be Košte Šodan Mahsā Amīnī" "Protests over the Killing of Masha Amini" etc. So the title is recognisable, certainly more so than this being the 8th article simply titled "(Georgian Calendar date) Iranian Protests" on the Iran protests disambiguation page. Pari Sarcinator (talk) 02:06, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
Oppose move. The movement is much greater than a legacy of Mahsa Amini. If the protests continue, the "September" can be dropped. WWGB (talk) 05:17, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
Support per WP:COMMONNAME, reliable sources continually refer to these as protests that broke out following the death of Mahsa Amini. It's also a title with keywords people are more likely to be searching for. Also WP:PRECISION, the current title is overly vague since the article is specifically about the protests sparked by Mahsa Amini's death, not just any protests within the timeframe. Siawase (talk) 08:48, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
Oppose: The goal of the revolution is the overthrow of the regime, so a title along the lines of "2022 Iranian revolution" would be more appropriate; and her name wasn't even Mahsa, but Jîna. Tāwhiwhi (talk) 13:30, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not the place to authoritatively dictate what the goals of a current decentralised political movement are in accordance with WP:RGW. The term revolution isn not commonly employed by sources at this time and Mahsa Amini is currently her WP:COMMONNAME, even though her Kurdish name is ژینا, in instances where it is mentioned in English language sources there is no uniform transliteration used for ژ, weakening the possibility of this being a WP:COMMONNAME. Pari Sarcinator (talk) 13:49, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
Her real and official name is Mahsa which is a Persian name. Jina (a Kurdish name) is just a pet name used by her family members and close friends. Regular people, such as us Wikipedians, are not supposed to use that pet name. 4nn1l2 (talk) 16:26, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
According to WP:OFFICIAL her "real and official" name is irrelevant to this discussion. Mahsa Amini is most commonly used by English language sources and rendered with a common transliteration consistently. If English language media coverage were to primarily use Jina/Zhina/Jine/Zhine/Žina etc. pp. when referring to her this would be her WP:COMMONNAME regardless of her legal name. Pari Sarcinator (talk) 16:46, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
Support We are a week into October and these protests have continued. These protests are also widely known as the Mahsa Amini protests. Hell, that's what it's called on the homepage. Owellorthanothy (talk) 14:29, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
Support. The protests are no longer just a September 2022 phenomenon, and reliable sources commonly identify them in relation to Mahsa Amini. ╠╣uw[talk]14:57, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
Support. I didn't move the page back myself when I first spotted that a bold move had been made, because the new target seemed like the correct one based on reliable sources. — Amakuru (talk) 15:20, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
Oppose The protests have already died down, the internet is up again and finally there is a coroner's report about her death (anyone knowledgeable about Iran knew that there would not be a coroner's report before the end of the protests). The protests are OVER. September is exact enough because the bulk of the protests happened then. 4nn1l2 (talk) 15:40, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
Support the title Mahsa Amini protests, because this is how the demonstrations are commonly known and also how western media seems to have depicted it. However, if protests continue for months and months and the public outrage and resistance generalizes more broadly, then it might make sense to create a distinction between the initial many weeks of protests following her death versus a more complex and protracted struggle (in which case there could possibly be two articles). But only time will tell in those regards, and we will also need to base any such article split or title changes on the reporting of reliable sources in regards to the events on the ground. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 18:31, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
Support as proposed. They're the WP:COMMONNAME and most recognizable title. Why do we call the insurrection (or whatever you want to call it) at the Capitol "January 6"? It's the common name used by scholars, the media, and the general public. Same type of situation here. InvadingInvader (talk) 20:54, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
Strong support for the change to Mahsa Amini protests per WP:COMMONNAME, cuz most people, including many news orgs, call it that. To illustrate an example of what I mean: everyone calls the George Floyd protests the George Floyd protests, because his murder is what sparked the massive protests in the months after, even if they weren't exclusively about him. Just as the unjust circumstances of his death are directly related to the protests that followed, the horrible circumstances surrounding Mahsa Amini's death are directly related to why Iranians are protesting right now. DJ (talk) 06:00, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
Support as per WP:COMMONNAME. This is the name many news articles are using and the protests have already gone into October, so it makes sense. I can't think of anything better to call it anyways. -125.59.140.165 (talk) 12:19, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
Support not only per WP:COMMONNAME, but also using basic common sense in order to avoid confusion for readers. Wikipedia has other similarly named articles, including the 2021–2022 Iranian protests and the 2022 Iranian food protests. A huge part of the reason that the media distinguishes this specific rounds of protest by using the term "Mahsa Amini protests" is to clearly distinguish these rounds of civil action as being related to her death, as opposed to the 2022 water shortage, electricity, or food supply crises. By not clearly distinguishing the protests in the name and instead arbitrarily orienting them around the month of September (when in fact the protests have reached their peak in the month of October), we create a misleading title for the protests for absolutely no reason. FlipandFlopped ツ15:16, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Renaming - it's not just "September protests" it's also October
Dear Wikipedians, please rename the entry adequatly.
"September protests" is no longer valid as the protests have extended into October and may continue still...
It should be another name, like:
"September and October 2022 Iranian protests"
or
"Autumn 2022 Iranian protest"
or if do not take the name from the calendar but chose anoter way of naming them, e.g. subject matter:
"2022 Iranian protests sparked by Mahsa Amini's death"
or
"The Great Iranian Protests of 2022" "The Greatest Iranian Protests of since the Islamic Revolution"
or something else.
Thank you for you ideas!
Ivonna Nowicka (talk) 10:38, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
There is an ongoing discussion on this talk page about whether or not to revert the name back to Mahsa Amini protests, on the grounds that this name is the most commonly used in the media. If you prefer this name to the current title, or if you would like to suggest one of your alternative article titles, please cast a vote in the discussion. FlipandFlopped ツ15:24, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
Fuzheado closed it after only 2 days instead of the usual 7, and because I haven't had a chance to post my sources and vote yet (and won't until I get back to a desktop in a couple days), I've asking him to reopen it. If it's not reopened, I may file a WP:MR. Levivich (talk) 04:11, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
You are free to do a move review, but I would contemplate how good a use of time that would be for the community. It seems you have a strong opinion on this matter, but please consider the wisdom of opening a move review and the unnecessary energy it would involve. We are not a bureaucracy, and the consensus is very strong and clear. You can see from the above comment now that we are deep into October, having "September" as part of the title made less and less sense and there is a justification for renaming this sooner than later. - Fuzheado | Talk05:09, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
My strong opinion on the matter is this: we should decide the title by RM. One, full RM, not cut short. It's not too much to have one RM. I didn't even have a chance to post a vote and source analysis. After only two days, 18-5 with me being the only person to post sources (sources that don't support this title), is not strong or clear consensus. It's not a vote. Levivich (talk) 05:25, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
"Those who beat up (Iranian) women and girls on the street, who abduct, arbitrarily imprison and condemn to death people who want nothing other than to live free - they stand on the wrong side of history," German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock told Bild am Sonntag newspaper on Sunday.
Go for it. Also I was thinking not just detainees but even more unfortunately casualties too, since there are quite a lot now and some individual cases which have received similar coverage to Mahsa. That way they are not just statistics in a table as well. - Indefensible (talk) 05:16, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
Yes, that makes sense. Should the "casualties" become its own article as well, since sadly it is getting to be quite long? BlueBlack (talk) 13:51, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
Yeah, I thought about that. I was waiting for the back and forth renaming to end, but that may not be the standard practice? BlueBlack (talk) 02:23, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
changing the day-by-day format to a overview format
These protests have been happening for 11 days. adding information for each day of protests is clogging up space. I propose we change this to a few paragraphs of information which will be added onto for however long these protests last. Manumaker08 (talk) 17:45, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
I think this is an inevitable part of the evolution of an article about a protest movement, but it's very difficult to write the overview while we're still in the middle of the events. Levivich (talk) 02:00, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
Not done. There doesn't seem any need to split out the timeline section at present, and certainly a consensus should form here for that before carrying it out. Also, if you copy content within Wikipedia, you need to follow the attribution rules as detailed at WP:COPYWITHIN. I've redirected the new page back here for now. — Amakuru (talk) 09:41, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
A better suggestion would be to actually wait until the protests end (if ever) to create the timeline, as it would be more time-efficient and easier to get sources in order to create the timeline in the first place. Raymond Kestis (talk) 05:43, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
At some point this article will become too long if the protests continue though, I think planning when to split the timeline to a separate article is not a bad idea. - Indefensible (talk) 17:42, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
I really agree with spliting the timeline into a different article, because these protests show no sign of slowing down and will probably go on for mich longer. THEREALhistoryandgames (talk) 12:20, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
reasons for ongoing protests
Here's a good overview article:
How much trouble is Iran’s ruling regime in? Why the Mahsa Amini movement is different than previous protests. The immediate cause of the protests was Amini’s death, and rage directed at the country’s repressive religious laws. But the situation in Iran was already combustible thanks to years of economic distress, caused by a combination of factors including international sanctions linked to the country’s nuclear program and the lingering impact of the coronavirus, as well as mismanagement and corruption. The country’s gross domestic product plunged by nearly 60 percent between 2017 and 2020. While growth did begin to recover last year, inflation remains a massive problem, with Iranians paying as much as 75 percent more for food than they did a year ago. One in three Iranians now lives in poverty.
In addition to the street protests, the movement is now becoming an industrial action with workers at several oil and petrochemical plants going on strike. These include the symbolically important Abadan oil refinery where strikes in 1978 played a major part in the revolution that overthrew the shah.
A number of statements from the current protesters, including Hajipour’s viral anthem, also reference environmental issues. In the past year, the country has endured flash floods, droughts, and punishing heat waves. While hardly alone in that regard, critics blame the government for mismanagement that has led to environmental problems including the water shortages that sparked protests and rioting in the city of Isfahan last year.
Might be good to maybe make a mention of the food price increases (75%) or water shortages/ecological issues and government mismanagement, as other possible reasons for ongoing protests. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 20:36, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
I don't think we should incorporate this suggestion. Iranians have been very clear with their chants and they have been very quick to criticize newspapers such as the New York Times for relating the current protests to sanctions or economic issues. In the past, limiting the protests in Iran to economic hardships have caused the overlooking of the dire situation in Iran, so from what we are hearing directly from Iran, they're adamant about focusing on the main slogan of this movement 'women, life, freedom' without changing the causation for its continuation. Additionally, I don't think there is any need for adding a 'reason' for the ongoing protests, the murder of Mahsa Amini and the countless lives taken afterwards should be reason enough for anybody, and again, the chant 'women, life, freedom' highlight the foundation of this movement, and I can't find any reasons stronger than these three words for remaining on the streets. Also noteworthy that 'life' includes your concern, which is economic hardship, and there's no need to separately mention that to make it appear more important than freedom or women/human rights. Exhaustedgolsa (talk) 03:24, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
Obviously concerns about women's rights and overall freedom are at the forefront of the protest movement. I was simply suggesting mention of other background "contributing factors" that have preceded the unrest (as suggested by the source of the above linked article). Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 19:48, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
Absolutely not. They are in no way relevant other than hijab being a common disputed matter in both, but the cause, the timeline, the outcome, and even the scales in no way match. It would be a disservice. Exhaustedgolsa (talk) 03:38, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
Your justifications are irrelevant because Homa Darabi cited in See Also was nearly 1/2 century ago and had a scale of 1.
This article is confused, which is forgivable for a current event, even though a month has passed. It looks more like it should be titled "2022 Iran Hijab Protests" because other casualties are mentioned by name and there is a repeated theme about hijab.
The "reverse" type of protest related to school uniform strictness in India is not new (occurred in Thailand when I lived there 30 years ago, same polarization of "right to wear hijab" and "no exceptions to secular rules"). So it's not a one-off, nor a "disservice" (unless you intend to turn this WP page into a hagiography).
Alternatively, we should revisit the ill-conceived move/name change. As noted by several Oppose, this article repeatedly refers to gestures, broadcasts, and demonstrations against the regime in general.
Maybe better to change the name of the page to "Iran 2022 protests" as it is now beyond protests against Mahsa Amini's death, although it started with that. On Wiki Persian section also the title is "Iran 2022 protests". In the history of the protests it is mentioned that it was started with Mahsa's death. Khobar2022 (talk) 12:53, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
"Hackers supporting Iran's wave of women-led protests interrupted a state TV news broadcast with an image of gun-sight crosshairs and flames over an image of supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, in footage widely shared online on Sunday."
I am a bit confused about this request. What is being requested to be added to the article and what part of the article should be amended? It is helpful to include this information to assist in updating articles and helping us decide whether the requested information should be added. Jurisdicta (talk) 16:30, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
Change the name of article: the protests can not more be named after Mahsa Amini
The protests began actually with death of Mahsa Amini but it can not more be named after her. Analogy: Arab spring began with death of Mohamed Bouazizi, but is not be named after him like as "Mohamed Bouazizi revolution" or "Mohamed Bouazizi protests", .... In Persian Wikipedia they named the protests not after Mahsa Amini but named it as: "Nationwide protests of 1401 in Iran" (Nationwide protests of 2022 in Iran). Savalanni (talk) 22:00, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
Agreed. "2022 Iran protests" or "2022 Iran antigovernment protests" was what I was going to suggest in the last RM. From the RSes I'm reading the past week, that's what they all seem to call them, and I haven't yet seen any that call them "Mahsa Amini protests". Levivich (talk) 22:30, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
A simple googling with exact phrases:
"Mahsa Amini protests": 314.000 results
"2022 Iran protests": 36.900 results
"2022 Iran antigovernment protests": 3.450.000 (but the top page is the Wikipedia article on the 2021–2022 Iranian protests)
"2022 Iran anti government protests": 58.400.000 results (same)
"2022 Iranian Protests": 2.340 results
I still think "Mahsa Amini protests" is the better choice to avoid confusion and stick to the sources, as upsetting as this is to people who consider the protests to be more than just about the death of a 22 year-old woman, which they certainly are.--Ideophagous (talk) 22:37, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
WP:HITS (and, for AFDs, WP:GHITS) explains why Google search results are not relevant: those numbers are not accurate and not indicative of RS. What we need to do instead is go RS by RS and see what they call it. The BBC's section about this, to take one example, is called "2022 Iran protests" [10]. Levivich (talk) 22:41, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
The first policy you cite deals with neutrality, and the second one with whether an article should be deleted or not. Neither of these are relevant to the topic at hand, which is the choice a WP:CRITERIA consistent title, i.e. one that is a recognizable, unambiguous, concise, precise and natural. I would also add that it should be unique (obviously). The only quality that "Mahsa Amini protests" may be potentially lacking is consistency, which should be verified, but we have at least one precedent with George Floyd protests. The other titles are all ambiguous and not necessarily recognizable, and some of them are not concise.--Ideophagous (talk) 22:50, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
WP:HITS doesn't just deal with neutrality, it also deals with notability and verifiability, but let's not wikilawyer. As I said, the section explains why Google search results are not relevant: why they're not reliable and why they shouldn't be used as evidence of anything. In the case of Google (and other search engines such as Bing and Yahoo!), the hit count at the top of the page is unreliable and should usually not be reported. Those numbers you quoted are not real. Those aren't the actual hit counts. Even if you were to pull the real numbers (HITS explains how), you'd then have to somehow filter out all the non-RS from the RS, which of course you can't do. HITS then goes on to talk about the various search engine biases (which of course includes Wikipedia mirrors, SEO, and other problems).
For future reference, if you want to quote Google numbers, it's better to quote Google News hit counts and/or Google Scholar hit counts; those are at least better than Google web hit counts, though both still include unreliable sources. (There's also Ngrams for pre-2019 topics, but that doesn't help us and has its own problems too). A "simple googling with exact phrases", as you put it, doesn't give us any reliable information. There is no substitute for an analysis of RS--Google is not a helpful shortcut for figuring out common name. Levivich (talk) 03:15, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
Google Trends may also be a useful indicator regarding how popular specific search terms are. This of course does not measure what reliable sources are saying, but it may be another helpful datapoint. One may also compare search terms between different geographic regions with Google Trends, which is also beneficial when trying to settle some of these naming debates. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 22:29, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
Indeed, there's also 2021-2022 Iranian protests. That's why I had thought "2022 Iran antigovernment protests", which I've seen the BBC and other RS use. One of the problems with the current title is it doesn't have "Iran" in it, so unless the reader already knows who Mahsa Amini was, the title won't tell them what the article is about. Levivich (talk) 22:47, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
If you can find a title that fulfills WP:CRITERIA better than Mahsa Amini protests, by all means. "2022 Iran antigovernment protests" can also be about the July food protests, or some people could complain that the protests were about women's rights and freedom primarily. In any case, I think it's best to wait and see how the events will unfold in the coming weeks and months. Perhaps another name for these events will arise naturally.-- Ideophagous (talk) 22:54, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
I don't think that's what CONSISTENT means. Just because there's a protest movement named after a person doesn't mean we should name other articles about protest movements after a person to be consistent. If anything, CONSISTENT means the opposite: we should follow the "[date] [place] protests" format to be consistent with all the other protest articles that follow that format. There are, after all, far more "[date] [place] protests" articles than "[person's name] protests" articles, after all. Levivich (talk) 03:15, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
"the protests can not more be named after Mahsa Amini": This is the largest and most widespread protests in Iran in 2022.--Sunfyre (talk) 07:49, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
@Savalanni and others: There's no law against preliminary discussions, but please be aware that no controversial move can actually happen without following the WP:MOVEREQ process, otherwise opponents of the move won't have a fair chance to respond. In addition, the MOVEREQ process allows a move discussion to be archived in the list of prior move discussions for the article, to reduce the need for people repeating themselves. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 21:23, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
There was a previous move discussion from 6-9 October, accessible from the header of this page; I would personally advise reviewing that, and making sure you have additional points or data that haven't already been raised in that discussion before making a MOVEREQ. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 21:34, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
Edit Request
Please change Iranian Revolutionary Guards to Islamic Revolutionary Guards, their name doesn't have Iran in it at all.
It would also be great if the state is called "Islamic Republic" instead of Iranian government as they never call themselves an Iranian government but an Islamic state. It's also insisted by the protesters to differentiate between the nation and the state, and it may be helpful to pay attention to that.
Could you include citations to support your request for changing the name of Iranian Revolutionary Guards/Islamic Revolutionary Guards Exhaustedgolsa? While this seems to be a reasonable request, we want to make sure that there is appropriate authority/support to back-up what is being requested and it is accurate. Jurisdicta (talk) 16:33, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
There's also the question of discrepancies between a direct translation versus how media, other reliable sources, and western governments are referring to these institutions in the popular discourse. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 19:51, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
"Iranian government" is a descriptive term: Iran has a government, so that government is the "Iranian government". Strictly speaking, a distinction can be made between a state and the government of that state: the state is the whole structure, while the government is typically the prime minister and cabinet of ministers, who make executive decisions, especially in countries with a parliamentary system of government. The state of Iran is presumably the Islamic Republic. But exactly who makes what decision or is responsible for which action in the current context is a matter of guessing by the media; what is the closest to factual information is that government spokesperson X or leader Y makes statement Z; whether that represents the Islamic Republic or Iranian government is probably hard to separate in the context of this article, at least in terms of reactions and comments on the protests. Academic analysis may distinguish what can be attributed to the "Raisi government" versus what can be attributed to Khamenei, and to what extent one or the other represents "the state of Iran", i.e. the Islamic Republic. Media will not generally distinguish these.
"nation" is a more contested term, although mainstream media often use it without clarifying what they really mean by it, though the reader can usually guess.
Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps is the title of our Wikipedia article on the IRGC. Iranian Revolutionary Guards could be reasonably interpreted to mean Revolutionary Guards that are Iranian; but it's clear that Islamic Revolutionary Guards is closer to the English version of the formal name. Since this article is clearly about Iran, right from the lead, it would be reasonable to write Islamic Revolutionary Guards rather than Iranian Revolutionary Guards, or put Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) and then use IRGC, with one or two reminders in new major sections, for people who skip directly there.
Looks like the IRGC change has been done, both here and on the timeline page. Iranian government is accurate, in the broad sense of "government" (as opposed to an administration or a cabinet), and is a terminology often used in the media. If there's specific cases where someone finds the usage confusing, we can change those cases. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 03:26, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
"No centralised Leadership"
While there isn't any centralised leadership that all protestors gather around, there are definitely different angles of protests against the IRI. Ranging from ethnic separatism to political groups, which could be more informative than just "no centralised leadership". Genabab (talk) 12:01, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
Genabab We report what the WS:RS (oops, typo) WP:RS (in this context, mainly mainstream media sources) report. We would first need sources breaking down who the major protest leaders are in order to consider including such information. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 05:00, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
Removing Artesh from the Conflict Parties section.
Are you sure that Artesh has been involved in all of this? From what I know they're busy with lots of other things, and they are basically the people's army anyway if you look at their motto. I don't think the government has deployed any Artesh units against the people in this protests. AradTheSimp (talk) 20:43, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
I removed it since it's unsourced and I can't immediately find sourcing for their significant involvement, if such a source is found it can be re-added. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 01:50, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
Please also remove Sayyari and Mousavi from the lead figures section, they are Artesh commanders so if thete isn't a source for the involvement of Artesh, these two people weren't involved either. AradTheSimp (talk) 16:47, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 October 2022
This edit request to Mahsa Amini protests has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
Under the Sports section of In Popular Culture, add a short paragraph about Elnaz Rekabi not wearing a hijab at the 2022 IFSC Climbing Asian Championships and events following her return to Iran. My example text:
During the 2022 IFSC Climbing Asian Championships in Seoul, South Korea, Iranian climber Elnaz Rekabi received international attention when she competed without a mandatory hijab, a move widely considered to be a show of support for the ongoing protests.[1][2] Despite being hailed as a hero by a cheering crowd upon her return to Tehran, Rekabi has since claimed that the act was not intended to be symbolic, stating publicly and on social media that she had merely been in a rush before it was her turn to compete in the event and that this caused her headscarf to inadvertently fall off.Cite error: A <ref> tag is missing the closing </ref> (see the help page).[3] Human rights organisations and activists have voiced concern that these statements may have been coerced by the Iranian government, and it has since been reported by the media that she has been placed under house arrest.[4][5] End. PentagonPizza (talk) 09:27, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
PentagonPizza is not calling for it to be called a protest, just to say that it was widely considered a protest. Might seem like a minor distinction, but many reliable sources have reported that her statements after the event are likely made under duress. Not up to us to declare that this is true, just that reliable sources have indicated that it is likely. David12345 (talk) 11:16, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
In fact, even if it were somehow conclusively shown that her statements were made of her own accord, and this is all a big misunderstanding, it would still be true to say that her actions were perceived as a protest, although a debate could be had about how much we should emphasize the perception as opposed to her intent. But this is putting the cart way before the horse. David12345 (talk) 11:24, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
Seems more or less OK to me - carefully enough worded, apart from WP:RELTIME needing fixing - no Wikipedians guarantee to update the content that they've added when it's no longer "recent" (e.g. "has since claimed" should be "claimed" or even better, "stated"), and the references need proper archiving and formatting. Boud (talk) 18:41, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
Thanks to all for the input. I hope this redrafted text is acceptable and addresses WP:RELTIME problems:
During the 2022 IFSC Climbing Asian Championships in Seoul, South Korea, Iranian climber Elnaz Rekabi received international attention when she competed without a mandatory hijab, a move widely considered to be a show of support for the protests. Despite being hailed as a hero by a cheering crowd upon her return to Tehran, Rekabi stated that the act was not intended to be symbolic, claiming publicly and on social media that she had merely been in a rush before it was her turn to compete and that this caused her headscarf to inadvertently fall off. Human rights organisations and activists voiced concern that these statements may have been coerced by the Iranian government. As of October 2022[update] it has been reported by the media that Rekabi is under house arrest.
I am still fairly new to Wikipedia and hope I am using the Wikipedia:As of feature correctly --- this is an ongoing situation and seems the best way to deal with it. Someone with the required permission will have to take care of sorting out the format for the references, I do not know how to do it myself without direct access to the page. PentagonPizza (talk) 06:48, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
Done There were some other changes I made: e.g. "widely considered" is a bit WP:WEASELly, since we don't know who considered; use of WP:FLUFF such as "hailed", "merely", "voiced". Anyway, others can edit the text that I put, and you can use {{edit extended-protected}} for any specific changes you want others to make. Boud (talk) 13:08, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
Update is required
According to the latest update of the Iranian Human Rights Organization (IHR), the number of identified victims of the protests has increased to 277 included 40 children (1). Please update statistics -- Mahan (talk) 09:48, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
The Intercept: How Iran can Track and Control Protesters' Phones
Great article from The Intercept about leaked documents involving Iran's Communications Regulatory Authority, and their surveillance system called "SIAM":
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 September 2022 (2)
This edit request to Mahsa Amini protests has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
Please add this to the article:
Update statistics
According to HRANA, until November 3 the number of confirmed dead protesters reached 298 people, including 47 children, and 36 repressive forces of the Islamic regime were also killed. The number of official arrests has reached more than 14,161 (Source: 1, 2). --Mahan (talk) 07:49, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 October 2022
This edit request to Mahsa Amini protests has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
Please change Title of article from "Mahsa Amini protests" to "Iranian Revolution of 2022- (beginning with Mahsa Amini protests)" Jomhouriye (talk) 22:57, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
It's very clear what they OP wanted - an article title-change. However, some protests do not a large-scale revolution make. What happened to the Shah's regime was a true revolution ... until the massive majority of Iranians take to the streets, it won't qualify as one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.195.179 (talk) 14:56, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
Change title to "Iran Revolution 2022"
These protests have expanded to the scale of a revolution, and multiple noteworthy media outlets, including the National Post, CNN, The Guardian, and the New York Magazine have described it as such. Not to mention, the hashtag #IranRevolution2022 is one of the most used hashtags regarding Iran nowadays. I would suggest keeping the page up to date with what's going on on the streets and match the slogan of those who chant "don't call this a protest, this is an actual revolution." Exhaustedgolsa (talk) 03:15, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
Oppose We only create an article with the name revolution in it, if the revolution is already victored.
Definitely. Some also call it a Women Revolution. I also recommend looking up the hashtag I posted. And in this video you can hear the chant of revolution as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20WEe18yiz0
Thanks. I'm not trying to be difficult but all of these links seem to be either (1) opinion pieces/blogs/other non-WP:RS, (2) articles where the RS is quoting someone else calling it a revolution, or (3) articles where the RS is asking the question whether it's a revolution. To justify calling this article the "2022 Iranian Revolution", we would need RS that say in their own voice that this is a revolution, not that it might become one, or that some people think it is one. (And yes, I have seen the hashtag, but hashtags are not RS.) Levivich (talk) 04:03, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
I understand, but I don't think media outlets are even allowed to say that as that would entail a political stance and has consequences which is why it is generally prohibited within the media to go ahead and make such a statement before it actually succeeds. The only time they will start making those statements is when the regime is overthrown. I guess we could say Wiki has the same approach which is fair, but I'm just trying to explain why they don't call it that and that their reasoning wouldn't reflect on the accuracy of the term. Exhaustedgolsa (talk) 07:42, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
@Exhaustedgolsa: Wikipedia policy is separate from policies on other Wikis. Here we're on Wikipedia. The difference is fundamental.Don't abbreviate "Wikipedia" as "Wiki"! There are other wikis out there – Wikipedia is just one of them. As for mainstream media outlets "not being allowed" to have a political stance, that suggestion is contrary to the empirical evidence of the propaganda model; the corporate mainstream media statistically follow several filters, which do include political filtering (see the article). In this situation, we could statistically expect Western corporate mainstream media to describe the events as a revolution if that were in the interests of the advertisers who fund them, and the governments'/corporations' public relations departments who provide sources for stories, for example. However, trying to correct our sources based on the broad, empirical, statistical evidence would be using a blunt instrument where we instead can use much more fine-honed analysis of individual sources, where necessary, and focus on the factual information that a wide variety of sources report. This is Wikipedia's current best strategy for bypassing, to a fair degree, the propaganda model. For the moment, I agree with Levivich that there's little support from WP:RS that this "is" a revolution rather than that this "could become" a revolution. You could start a section here such as "Analysis" with summaries of recognised academics' analyses - if university researchers (historians, sociologists, ...) describe the events as "a revolution", then that would count as sourced knowledge, and might eventually justify a title change. That's more likely in 6 or 12 or 60 months or so, though, rather than immediately. Boud (talk) 00:03, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
I imagine that if there is something like real political change/overthrow of the gov. then it fits, until then I don't think it's worth calling it a revolution. Genabab (talk) 11:59, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
Certainly seems like large scale protests for now but may grow to something bigger later and we can change the article name if it does. BogLogs (talk) 12:54, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
Revolution section
@Exhaustedgolsa, Levivich, Genabab, and Manumaker08: I started a section on "Revolution". There are certainly plenty of Wikipedia-notable intellectuals who are publicly insisting that the events are a revolution; and there are academics who have said that the protests have been shifting from reform/evolution to revolution. This is not (currently) enough for a title change, but the analysis is notable. (All the five factors mentioned by Ghasseminejad+2020 appear to be strengthening in the current protests, consistent with the Ghasseminejad+2020 claim of a switch to revolution in 2017; however, this is my personal interpretation only, which doesn't count for the article.) Boud (talk) 00:32, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
@STSC: Could you please clarify what you mean by the UNDUE tag? I think that a better section title might be Reform versus revolution, because this is the simplest common way of describing sociopolitical change, and avoids choosing a position about which accurately describes the current protests and their effects. But I don't see a problem with the content - academic analysis of events is part of knowledge, not just the events themselves. There's one paragraph with intellectuals' opinions, and one with academics' descriptions of their research. Boud (talk) 13:18, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
It's context - if that research article is right, then the trajectory to a revolution already started in 2017; that's relevant context. Boud (talk) 01:02, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
Also, for now, literally calling it a revolution (as opposed to, say, metaphorically calling it a revolution, or calling it an ongoing attempt at revolution) seems WP:FRINGE. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 21:12, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
Probably you mean the subsection title. This is what the sources I found say, so it's not WP:FRINGE. In any case, someone removed the subsection header 'Revolution', so "calling it a revolution" seems to be a solved issue in terms of editing. Boud (talk) 01:02, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
That said, there's no fundamental policy reason to exclude the section if editors want it in, as long as the section gives weight to the mainstream view that it's not a full-blown revolution at the moment (For example, [11]). (If it matters, my take is that IMHO the opinions of activists on a semantic dispute are of little interest to readers of this page.) Rolf H Nelson (talk) 21:12, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
It's what the sources give, and it's very much on-topic. People don't just protest randomly in a vacuum - there are broader sociological processes that sociologists study; see the lead there: social order and social change are in the lead. Whether this is a situation of minor social change or a complete overhaul of the social order is not something to be decided by Wikipedians - let the balance of serious sources decide which it is and what their predictions are. Boud (talk) 01:02, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
Any objections to removing the WP:UNDUE tag? We had the "Revolution" subsection title removed; some sourced opinions by Wikipedia-notable people seeing the events as a revolution were removed; and sourced opinions from the one source given above that the events are not a revolution (but potentially could become one) added. Boud (talk) 00:25, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
Personally I see little encyclopedic value in listing lots of blabla from politicians around the world. An International reactions to ... article would be better justified if there were some notable international reactions other than just blabla. Boud (talk) 00:58, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
It is notable that countries such as Germany and France with big economic ties with Iran finally spoke against the outrageous tyranny in there. Normally western European leaders such as Lofven would go to Iran to cozy up to the ayatollahs. Universal condemnation of forced veiling was neither quick right after September 16th nor should be considered a given if editors want to be neutral.--2601:C4:C300:A210:6C62:4C43:979B:E1E5 (talk) 04:08, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
IP editor is correct, removal of reactions should be reverted. The material is absolutely encyclopedic, particularly when from subjects who meet the notability threshold to have their own encyclopedic article on Wikipedia and hold formal senior offices representing national governments and have supporting reliable sources. For similar example, look at Reactions to the September 11 attacks for comparison and precedent. - Indefensible (talk) 08:16, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
I added some coverage to Timeline of the Mahsa Amini protests. IMHO the statement is too tangential for the reactions section; we need a direct statement from the Saudi government for or against the protesters or for or against Iran's overall handling of the protests, which I can't immediately find. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 02:31, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
In my opinion, you should add the Iranian threat to Saudi Arabia over media coverage under the Reactions section right after the "On 10 October" line since it's an official reaction by the Iranian government. JohnnyPedro1998 (talk) 05:36, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
As acknowledged in the article about the language, Farsi is the correct endonym. At minimum the uses of "Persian" in the article text should be changed to Farsi; I'd also support the language translations saying Farsi, although if there's a policy on this I'm not aware of that should take precedence. Amyipdev (talk) 17:01, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
As you are clearly aware, the article Persian Language uses Persian over Farsi. If it is right to change it, the discussion should take page on that page, and spread from there. As is, I think the consensus is pretty clear that Persian is appropriate per WP:COMMONNAMEDavid12345 (talk) 17:24, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
While I agree that Wikipedia is not censored, and many of the photos come from public domain sources, there seems to be a human interest in protecting those who are involved in the protest. While there is not a rule requiring photos being used that do not identify the participants, given the potential reprocutions of being identified, I would argue it is appropriate and defendable if such efforts were used or photos were selected that do not identify the participants. Jurisdicta (talk) 16:53, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
Good points all around. IMHO the expressions on peoples' faces are informative, so we don't have grounds to blue the images under current Wikipedia policies. There's currently no "personal safety" criterion under Wikipedia:Image use policy#Moral issues; adding it would be a big and contentious change, but it's certain something that could be discussed. Is anyone actually volunteering to blur out one or more of the existing images? If not, it's a moot point. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 22:58, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
The other alternative would be to simply not use such images on the page at all. I believe it's important to think about the human interest angle, and am quite surprised that there isn't any Wikipedia policy about this. Would definitely like to participate in any such future discussion. There are a handful of open source apps that help automate this process. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 00:00, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
@Rolf h nelson: For example, I just found this scrubbing software with a quick search. (EDIT: That software only removes metadata, the face blur feature is done manually. Will keep looking for easy to use open source software that uses AI/ML for face detection and blurring.) Will give it a try and see how it goes for the images that we are using, and report back later. Thanks! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 01:30, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
Removing Sayyari and Mousavi from the 'lead figures' section.
They are commanders of the army. And there is no proof for the significant involvement of the army in the protests. So if the army hasn't been involved, then neither have those two. AradTheSimp (talk) 05:29, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 November 2022
This edit request to Mahsa Amini protests has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Iranian Revolution 2022 and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 September 26#Iranian Revolution 2022 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. QueenofBithynia (talk) 19:17, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
Done, thanks. Levivich (talk) 01:59, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
Not done: A tweet was being quoted. --Firestar464 (talk) 02:39, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
Italy: Italian lawmaker Giorgia Meloni wrote, "Mahsa died from being beaten after she was arrested by the Iranian religious police, just because a lock of hair came out of her veil."[3] She also expressed support for the Iranian revolt against the Islamist regime.[4]
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. FAdesdae378 (talk · contribs) 23:03, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
.png)
Saudi Arabia said Iran is trying to distract attention from the Mahsa Amini protests by poising to carry out attacks on both Saudi Arabia and Iraq: https://www.wsj.com/articles/saudi-arabia-u-s-on-high-alert-after-warning-of-imminent-iranian-attack-11667319274 JohnnyPedro1998 (talk) 18:47, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
Not done: The protests have gone on two full months plus two additional days. —C.Fred (talk) 17:35, 17 November 2022 (UTC)