User talk:Mlgc1998

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Archives

Archives

• Archive 1 (2018-2020)

Pinay

Hi. What is meant by "local inhabitant" of the Philippines? What would a non-local inhabitant be? Equinox ◑ 12:00, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

@Equinox: the semantics of this identity is kinda complicated, so that's how I compressed the definition. the long explanation is that that's the term to catch the informal widespread definition among people about somebody living long enough and especially intermarrying in the Philippines with other filipino citizens that other filipinos would already consider to be a fellow Filipino/Filipino/Pinoy/Pinay, since legally speaking a "Filipino" is simply anyone with the Philippine citizenship, but there might be people living in the Philippines or overseas that may also be commonly considered as such even without citizenship, so say somebody with permanent resident visa could be considered as pinoy or pinay by other filipinos already especially if they've lived in the philippines for decades already and especially also that they've married a filipino citizen and had a family in the country, but foreign expatriates who don't have citizenship or residency visa and only lived for a few years and especially didn't have a family locally and don't speak the local languages fluently wouldn't be considered as such despite having resided in the country, and then there are those local inhabitants that either have dual citizenship or went overseas or was born overseas that may also be treated as pinoy or pinay as well together with wherever country they lived in or got another citizenship, regardless if they were of native or non-native ancestry to the philippines, since we also have people of historical foreign migrant ancestry that are either pure non-native or mixed with native or other non-native and they too go overseas or get dual citizenship or born overseas and identify as filipino too. Basically, local inhabitants are most in this list: Ethnic groups in the Philippines, except usually those under "Recent modern immigrants and expatriates" unless they have naturalized into Filipino citizenship or got permanent residency or generally especially if they've lived long enough and intermarried and made family with other filipino citizens for other filipinos to consider them a fellow filipino. Of course, perceptions may differ per individual but generally most filipinos are usually accepting of other foreigners and non-local inhabitants who would like to move to and/or intermarry in the Philippines, especially if they are from a well-respected country among Filipinos, speak at least good or fluent English and more so if they or their children eventually learn Filipino(Tagalog) fluently or the regional language of the provinces they will live in. Historically, the migrant groups that moved and grew enough to be widely recognized in the Philippines are those listed in "Historical foreign migrants and intermixed peoples", especially the more populous ones like chinese filipinos and these are all normally treated as fellow Filipino/Filipina/Pinoy/Pinay especially if they grew up in the philippines as local inhabitants especially if they natively speak the local languages and do not look too different, which usually they come from neighboring or historical groups that have intermixed for centuries or generations, so normally they don't look too different. These past decades though, Koreans and a few Iranians have been migrating in too enough that some of them grow up in the Philippines to also be considered a fellow filipino especially if they stay long enough and/or naturalize or marry a filipino citizen (which need not be a native). Of course, they still don't number as big as the historical groups and some of those in the historical groups also don't number as big these days so some Filipinos might mistake them as not being a fellow filipino on first glance if they look too different from what they've seen when growing up until they hear them start speaking local languages natively. Of course, all this since they would not know or cross in their minds if one has Filipino citizenship or not. And then, these groups also move overseas and may identify as filipino there too, but if they did not have citizenship nor grow up nor live long enough in the Philippines and are not descendants of those such, then they would not normally be considered by the common filipino as another fellow filipino. Due to average population demographics, of course, the native groups are still more commonly observed and thought of, but originally in spanish colonial times, the term "Filipino" and "Filipina" referred to local-born spaniards and not the native groups who were called "Indio" instead, but that term caught taboo implications, so it was set aside during Philippine Revolution so that everyone will now be called "Filipino", where "Pinoy" was its diminutive form and "Pinay", the equivalent feminine form. All associations to these words afterwards now depend on the modern population of these citizens or local inhabitants.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 14:51, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Entry Layout

@Mlgc1998 Thanks for your edits so far. To help you though, I noticed that sometimes you don't follow the official entry layout format of Wiktionary (which I know sometimes other editors make mistakes too), so here's the guide for Wiktionary's entry layout, especially the order, like Etymology comes first, then Pronunciation, then main entry, then synonyms, then derived terms, then descendants. In any case, if you find some entries that have the wrong order, fix them nalang. Thanks! https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Entry_layout. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 03:22, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: where? I put Etymology then Pronunciation in Zamboanga and Iloilo. The entry for paslang, I just recently added the definition to slay. Some guy named Sorjam put that order from years back. I didn't notice the order as well till you edited it, but I guess I could order others like that, when I find them. If your conscious about that or it bothers you, edi quick edits to fix them when you come across it is going to be inevitable. I'm sure you understand already for years the nature of this place. Don't stress yourself too much with other people's edits, especially with the nature of this place. Wiktionary's a big place with too many edits per day or hour for one person to have a handle of even which languages or the random users that come across this place, you can't police everything till you come across it and I doubt you can straighten every random user's editing behavior to edit to a certain ideal, not least only through lengthy talk page discussions. Don't compulse yourself with responsibility over a ton of random people's edits, you'll be drowning yourself needlessly with no promise you'll ever hear from any faceless person on the internet. If someone's monitoring or pressuring you to do so, they're drowning themselves as well for these responsibilities. If you really like to full time on this for the past years, take it one step at a time or you'll be stressing yourself needlessly each day with your other responsibilities already. Also, talk page discussions take longer than the edits talked about at hand, if you want to discuss with me or wondering about something or whatever thought process that went into somewhere in a faster way, it'll be faster to ask directly or drop msgs with the means I've provided you long ago. Otherwise, if you like this message format so much, I can't promise that I'll be monitoring these at any frequency. I have other required responsibilities to monitor, with no set schedule for this work.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 14:12, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Nah I'm not stressing over it, just letting you know in case you don't know yet, to keep this uniform. For the entry layout, it was in 芥辣 haha, I noticed you put descendants before compounds. It should be the other way around. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:16, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: If you say so, or you might wanna ask whoever IP is 205.189.94.8 cuz that's certainly not me. I did just change one letter there in my edit for 芥辣. --Mlgc1998 (talk) 14:28, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: You're right! Lol. Sorry about that. I thought it was you. Anyway, I'd appreciate it if you reply in the other stuff I have questions on. Thanks! --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:31, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Akibat

Hey, @Mlgc1998, can I ask in your edit of the entry akibat, where you got the definition "ownership of an extensive farmland"? Thanks. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:51, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: For Tagalog entries in the past months or so, I checked KWF's Diksiyonaryo.ph to get all the supposed definitions. For akibat, the diksiyonaryo entry referred for that sense as "1: [ST] pagmamay-ari ng malawak na bukirin" which the website is likely referring to an obsolete or archaic sense now. I wasn't sure before what they meant by [ST], but I figured later on that they meant "Sinaunang Tagalog".--Mlgc1998 (talk) 15:48, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Oh, I see! Thanks! I'll just add the word "obsolete" then. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 05:45, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Belarus terms in Tagalog

@Mlgc1998 Can I ask where you found all these words relating to Belarus, namely: Rusoblanka, rusoblanko, rusoblanka, belaruso, belarusa, Belarusya? Thanks. By the way, we always pluralize nationalities in Tagalog. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 09:52, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: I can't quite remember specifically anymore from that time I edited those where it was exactly, but usually country names and nationalities from Europe I think I either remembered them from what I read long ago from Rizal's writings from school or college before. These are like terms that came about around the late 1800s or so, that at some point Rizal mentioned in his travels or I must've seen from one of those old-timey local documentary videos from school libraries like in Rizal library in Admu where they'd have this oldish filter and talk about the places on the map that people like Rizal or his colleagues traveled around to. The places were usually formal spanish sounding but the video decided to spell in filipino orthography in the transcript. I can't remember as well if there were also a few terms I heard from those old radio stations that liked to play old timey radio dramas, cuz when I was young, I had a driver who sometimes left the car radio on that channel or we also had an old manang cook who liked to listen to those radio channels in the kitchen. Tho of course, these days many of these formal filipinized terms for country names and nationalities aren't usually the common ones that pop into people's minds cuz most would just revert to the english terms these days or conjugate it with taga-something. The tagalog wikipedia tho sometimes still makes use of some of these formal spanish-derived terms. I'm not sure if the government departments like DFA or certain ph embassies or consulates still use these in formal full Filipino print. The ones I vaguely remember to have seen in a formal event before might've previously gotten them from the spanish term before but decided to spell in filipino orthography. The government departments sometimes does it like that.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 11:21, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: For the first three (which if following Tagalog orthography should be spelt Rusoblangka, Rusoblangko btw), I just can't find it elsewhere in any other publications, at least in Tagalog contexts, and they're not in dictionaries so I think I'll put deletion requests for them. For the latter three, that's where I'm not sure, so I'll research on that more. But supposedly, "Belarus" in Spanish is Bielorrusia, so in Tagalog that would be "Biyelorusya". Anyway, thanks for your response. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 11:35, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Etymology on "bicho"

@Mlgc1998 Hey! Regarding the etymology you put on bicho, may I ask where you got 味作? Since the first one is referenced to Gloria Chan-Yap and the other one isn't. Is that your guess? Thanks! --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:09, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Question on "Dikiam"

Hey, so when you created the entry dikiam, you put in the notes that you've seen it in older dictionaries. May I know which? Thanks. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 09:54, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser I can't remember exactly which old dictionaries I meant back then, but I think what I did before was try to google if "dikiam" came up on any of the usual tagalog dictionary websites that usually come up. I searched it again on Google and the ones where it came up are like these, WordSense, Kaikki.org, WordBueno, Philippine Food, Cooking, & Dining Dictionary (2016), Fruits of the Philippines by Doreen Fernandez (1997), Biology For Non-Science Majors (1983), Liwayway (1971), etc. Mlgc1998 (talk) 10:31, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Question on Drakula

Hi! I see you added a Tagalog entry for drakula last year. May I ask where you encountered this term? For me, it seems that whenever Tagalog speakers mentioned "drakula", they use "kay", so it's a name, so it would be "Dracula" the character. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 02:13, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser ah si drakula, siguro nga. I can't remember specifically what brought me to that page before last year. I must've watched some youtube history video before related to the romanian historical figure, then wondered about the cebuano entry that was there. The more common default term for vampire would certainly be bampira, then this would be The Vampire. lol Mlgc1998 (talk) 07:33, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

講東講西

Mate, could you remember to add the synonym to the Thesaurus entry? E.g. at Thesaurus:亂說. ---> Tooironic (talk) 22:29, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

👍 ok Mlgc1998 (talk) 22:34, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

碗公

Hey, where did you get the characters? And also, as far as I know, this word is pronounced òa--khong-a, not óaⁿ-kong-a. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:19, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

A few weeks ago, someone from our groupchat mentioned that they found the expression for wa-ko ah! / wa-ko la! in 碗糕 since one of the senses and example sentences there mentioned that it was used as an expression of frustration like the hell, maybe in Taiwan or Southern Fujian though the entry didn't say which Hokkien dialect. I think, wasn't it you and justinrleung who added that sense there? The others in the groupchat looked into this more and they said that they found online a chinese explanation saying that it was used that way because people back then jokingly associated the rice cake gruel in rice cake bowls as if the same as semen ~ 潲(siâu), or was jokingly surprised or wasn't sure if their rice cake gruel in the bowl was semen or not. I thought about "óaⁿ-ko ah!" and did remember that this is also an expression my mom also said sometimes, but I know there was another more widespread expression that many other families and my dad also would say which is like the "óaⁿ-kong ah!"/"óaⁿ-kang ah!"/"óaⁿ-kong la!" though for all of these, the nasalization might've usually been ignored now because of how people senselessly used the expressions without regard to the original meaning of the term. When I tried to search for the closest one that was like this. The only one that matched and had the same idea was 碗公, but if I asked around if the literal meaning had any sense to people, they didn't seem to recognize it, saying instead that a very big bowl was just literally a 大碗(tuā-óaⁿ). Also, this Cebuano dictionary from some decades ago mentions the expression's existence as "wakanga", which matches the "kang" vernacular pronunciation of 公, but I know the pronunciation for the expression I frequently usually heard of is with the "kong" literary pronunciation, that others in the groupchat also report the elderlies or parents in their families also say. I'm not sure if this is because of another dichotomy with older loans in local ph languages being from Zhangzhou dialect pronunciations, whereas the modern ph hokkien ones we usually hear today are usually of the Quanzhou dialect pronunciations. Mlgc1998 (talk) 13:53, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: As for the expression you heard with your family, was the /k/ aspirated? Is it like the /k/ in pants /khò/ or /k/ in story /kò͘-sī/? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 15:47, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

oh yeah, that's another commonly heard pronunciation, kinda like 空, so "óa-khong ah!"? Mlgc1998 (talk) 16:35, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Yes, the one that sounds like 空. So you're saying "óa-khong ah!" is separate from the "óaⁿ-kong ah!" term you hear from your father and other families? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 04:28, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Hmmm they do seem like theyre usually either like "óa-khong ah!" or "óa-kho ah!". I asked some more people in groupchats and discords. Someone from davao said that it must be from 我苦矣！, then following that logic, the former might be 我空矣！, which they told me that it must be a synonym to mandarin's 我的天啊! Then, following the logic with 哇塞! and 哇老誒! Then, "óa-khong ah!" or "óa-kho ah!" must be like 哇空矣！ and 哇苦矣！ is that more accurate? Mlgc1998 (talk) 06:58, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Also, the last final particle also seems to vary for both of these expressions, either with 矣 / 啦 / 咯 , as frequently reported by multiple people in our groupchat and confirming with my family. Also, upon asking my atsi about if she heard anyone saying like "óa-kang ah!" or "óa-khang ah!", she says that she's mostly only heard like the same as wakanga usually only from other 番仔 here in Metro Manila that are speaking Tagalog, so I think wakanga also technically at least colloquially exists sometimes in Tagalog, apart from Cebuano, and my atsi says that the meaning of how they use it is in the same sense as with the original expression as an interjection of astonishment, tho I haven't found any source for Tagalog to list wakanga besides Cebuano. Mlgc1998 (talk) 07:43, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Exactly, so that means your use of the character 公 is wrong, since it óaⁿ-kong ah! doesn't exist in Hokkien, right? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 07:40, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

so what would the ideal pages be for these expressions? 哇空 and 哇苦? or 我空 or 我苦, but with the "óa" pronunciation for 我? Mlgc1998 (talk) 08:22, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

First of all, which one are you trying to write as an entry? Is it "òa--khong--a" or "óa-kho--a". Notice the two tones are different. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 23:12, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

both, since both expressions seem to exist Mlgc1998 (talk) 19:46, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

also, I tested these pronunciations you were saying in a pitch detector app. Isn't more like "óa-khòng--a" and "óa-khò͘--a". These are the ones I recognize more, based how I always remembered my parents say it like and if I tried to replicate that on the pitch detector app comparing to the pitch tone chart for ph hokkien I showed you before mapped to POJ/TL's tone marks. Mlgc1998 (talk) 20:08, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

I tried to replicate these "òa--khong--a" and "óa-kho--a" that you mentioned to the pitch detector app. They seem really strange in how that's pronounced or I'm not sure I could replicate those specific pitch tones like that to the pitch detector app Mlgc1998 (talk) 20:14, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Pre-Colonial Definition in Ginoo

I saw that you added the pre-colonial historical definition of ginoo (originally in Ginoo), may I ask where you got that? And how sure are you? Thanks. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:20, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure at that time about ginoo specifically. I thought before that it was just the term of address or noun root as with those of the maginoo class, especially that I had a science teacher before during highschool who was surnamed like "Ms. Guino-o", so perhaps the family patriarch progenitor was usually called that. Perhaps, back then, those of the maginoo class were not exactly specific with the gender and thus also called the women as ginoo together with the men as all being of the noble maginoo class. Also, this term, I always thought of associating this term like as if it seems to have something to do with noo ("forehead"), similar to 好額, so perhaps, those of high social status as nobles were described to have good foreheads, regardless of gender? Mlgc1998 (talk) 14:07, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Ay wait, gets ko na. I think it's cuz ginoo for women turned into ginang through adding the diminutive suffix -ing, but since ginoo ended in O, the addition of -ing turned the suffix instead into "-ang", so it's now ginang. Mlgc1998 (talk) 14:31, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: So you're saying the historical definition you put in ginoo is just a guess? If it is, please remove it since we only have indication that it referred to a woman historically, not a man. As for the suffixes "-ing" and "-ang" in gining and ginang, I think I agree with your inference, since I think they're relatively new terms, but unless we can find a source that says this, we have to put the key word "possibly" since we're not sure. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 15:41, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

what are you on about? I made that edit last year as part of what I remember repeatedly reading or hearing before from history classes that these are terms from precolonial times referring to the precolonial noble class or I think that must've been a day that I specifically read it somewhere but must not've bothered to learn about how to cite specific sources in wiktionary before. I don't remember that the specific gender was at all part of that consideration besides the assumption from it's current meaning referring specifically to men now. I probably edited that around the same time together reading or editing pages like maginoo, binibini, lakan, ladya, Gat, poon, Panginoon, po, opo, etc. Mlgc1998 (talk) 15:55, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Ok, thanks, then most likely the current historical definition of "male" in ginoo is wrong, so I'll remove it. I just wanted to make sure in case you knew about historical sources that I didn't know about. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 04:30, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Oh wait, I saw your edits. Thanks for editing it. This historical definition may be right, but could you show a source? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 04:37, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Nevermind again, I found some sources that say the same thing. Thanks for answering my questions. By the way, the terms ginang and gining were most likely invented recently, like during the 20th century. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 04:41, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Dalagita and Binatilyo

Hey, for the "feminine" and "masculine" thing, only use it if it's Spanish-derived, meaning both feminine and masculine words are variations of the same word root. The reason it's there is because Tagalog sort of became a bit gendered because it borrowed the masculine and feminine gendered words of Spanish, so we should only use it for that. Even words like "manong" and "manang" can apply because they're Spanish-derived from the same word root, and that's what we're stressing. For words like "binatilyo" and "dalagita", they're not from the same word root, so let's not put that. I hope that's clear. Thanks! --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 15:28, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Aren't these words like the equivalent gender terms when people think of them now? They may not have been gender equivalent terms before, but most likely also from the influence of the idea of gendered terms from Spanish, people now also matched these terms as their equivalent gender terms. When I was growing up before, the terms one frequently used to associate when calling children in puberty as maturing already is usually dalaga and binata as the two equivalent matching terms together. I don't see how dalagita and binatilyo wouldn't have that same sort of equivalence. Mlgc1998 (talk) 15:36, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: If the two terms are "gender equivalent", we put them under "Coordinate terms", but not beside the main entry. The reason is because both words aren't derived from the same etymology. For example, look at Spanish hermano and hermana, both are obviously derived from the same etymology, changing the endings to reflect gender, that's why they're beside the main entry. But look at padre and madre, they're not found beside the main entry because they come from separate etymologies and aren't just word endings changed to reflect gender. So in Tagalog, the "feminine" beside the main entry is to show that same etymology, adding "-a" to make it feminine. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 15:51, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

so we only put terms as their direct gendered counterpart if they're etymologically and orthographically consistent enough? might be a tough thing to think about with certain terms that don't necessarily work like how Spanish typically does it. Some of the kinship terms in Philippine kinship might have some irregularities if they're not from Spanish. Mlgc1998 (talk) 16:29, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: I don't think so, I would say all Tagalog terms of male-female equivalents are of two kinds, 1. two words of two separate etymological origins, or 2. two words of Spanish or semi-Spanish origin which usually has /a/ for the feminine word. I'd be glad if you can think of a pair that doesn't correspond to those two categories. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 04:27, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

yeah like the non-Spanish-derived terms in Philippine kinship, like kuya-ate, ingkong-impo, ama-ina, bana-maybahay, toto-nene, siyaho-inso, bayaw-hipag, diko-ditse, sangko-sanse, siko-sitse, atbp. so these are all just coordinate terms? Mlgc1998 (talk) 06:05, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Yeah. But if there is morphological change in the word based on Spanish-derived suffixes or infixes, then it would be masculine and feminine forms, since it's an application of grammatical gender, which is not as simple as boy-girl equivalents. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 07:38, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

so these examples above are to be listed as just coordinate terms? Mlgc1998 (talk) 08:19, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Yep. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 23:12, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Coordinate terms in usage notes

I removed the Usage Notes you added to peninsular, insular, criollo, americano, filipino, filipina, since I think they just duplicated the information you added with {{coordinate terms}} to the definitions and in the case of americano your notes varied from the format of the existing notes. JeffDoozan (talk) 22:34, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

ehh ok Mlgc1998 (talk) 06:46, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Fukien in Tagalog

@Mlgc1998 Hey, could you provide some attestation for the term Fukien used in Tagalog? Thanks. Especially with that spelling. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 12:32, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Asindero

@Mlgc1998 Why did you add "asindero" in "asin? The word "asindero" is a variant of "asyendero", which is from Spanish "haciendero", so it has nothing to do with "asin". --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 22:20, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

what in the world is an "asyendero"?? lol hahaha. An "asindero" is someone that traditionally makes salt. See this documentary video: One of The Rarest Salt in the World is from the Philippines (Asin Tibuok) It's at least confirmed to be used in Bohol and Pangasinan there, when speaking Tagalog and other local languages there, cuz he uses another term when speaking Bol-anon Cebuano Bisaya at 2:34. Mlgc1998 (talk) 00:27, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

There's also another synonym to this occupation. "mag-aasin" See this FB page: Mr.Asindero Philippine Sea Salt Mlgc1998 (talk) 00:46, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: I'm thinking you misunderstood that news video and FB page. That was meant to be a pun. It's not a legit word. So haciendas or asyenda in Tagalog are large plantations that are owned by the haciendero (or asyendero). It seems like "asindero" is a pun of "asin" and "asyendero", and not a legit word. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 00:57, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: If ever it's a legit word, it's merely a variant of asyendero, as seen here: https://www.tagalog-dictionary.com/search?word=asindero. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 00:58, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

It's likely both. The spellings just converged. The haciendero sense, would just be the more common one with more literary usage, since hacienda farming estates were more predominant in recent centuries of agricultural history of ph. Mlgc1998 (talk) 01:18, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

These are terms used by common folk like farmers and fishermen in a specific industry, so naturally they would of course call the salt maker as an "asindero" or "mag-aasin" in the conjugations they're naturally familiar with. If "pun" means a joke, the video and that facebook page are pretty serious about it. Doesn't seem to be any humor being meant in those, nor any reference to any haciendas. The video did point out that the practice has been done since precolonial times and has slowly went out of practice throughout the generations. The fact that there's not much literature mentioning its use for this sense shows the history that the video was talking about and the government's efforts to try and preserve the industry, as shown in that Facebook page. Whether it was a specialized term coined long ago in the dwindling salt-making industry or only recently coined to revive the industry still shows that it's a term they derived from "asin". Besides, what else would they have called the occupation if not that? Pangasinan was literally named in honor of the practice. Mlgc1998 (talk) 01:14, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: By the way, remember to tag the person every time you reply. Anyway, a pun isn't necessarily a joke, just a play on words. What's relevant here is the word itself. Obviously, there are many sources I can show you where "asindero" means "plantation owner", since that's the actual legit meaning of it, a variant of asyendero. The only context where you can find the word in the context of salt is in this case, therefore, it's a new, specialized usage, and we don't track every new, specialized usage, because it's subject to the rules of inclusion in Wiktionary. Second point, the links you shared aren't in Tagalog. So why is it being added in the Tagalog entry? Anyway, the word is obviously just adapted to this context because it has the word "asin" in it. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 01:21, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser Even if a sense for a word has many published sources showing that usage, it does not preclude that another sense from a different source converged to the same spelling. A word does not necessarily just have one definition, even if with the same pronunciation. We've already seen a lot of examples of that. Anyways, here are some attestations in other websites and papers that talk about "asindero" in the sense of the salt making industry: International Journal of Education Humanities and Social Science, SI DOM, ANG ASINDERO, Asin-dero, A real ASINdero at work#saltmine, Asinderos de Miag-ao: Part II:The Art of Farming Budbud Salt. The last article did also mention that the salt farmers may have reinforced the use of the term too because of the status implications that the other existing variant from asyendero gave it, especially in a Visayan-speaking milieu. The fact that they give research and the government supports them on it shows that it seems to also be on its way to becoming a legit word if ever it was really only recently coined or was some sort of long running joke they kept on using. Mlgc1998 (talk) 01:51, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Yes, you're correct. That's why Wiktionary has rules on when neologisms can be entered in Wiktionary. Even neologism senses. And the usage must be in Tagalog context, so this article you shared is indeed relevant as one instance: https://issuu.com/the.pillar.ursb/docs/le_pilier_2018-2019_final_low_reso/s/11617940. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 10:41, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Be Careful of Character Use?

I saw you added the definition "to brew" in 炰 (páo). Can I ask what made you think of this character for "phàu"? Because I'm kinda confident the character you're looking for is in 泡茶 (pàochá). --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 22:02, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Oh, was it 泡 or 炰? Someone in one of the facebook groups was asking about cooking verb terms in Hokkien and how they were each used differently. The person was from Malaysia and they mentioned a term about "pu" and that character seemed to mention "pu" and "phau" without much explanation besides what the definitions there said so it seemed to fit it all, whereas looking at 泡, the definitions provided seemed ambiguous, especially it was mentioning about light and crisp or swim bladders or bubbles. Did the sense come from soaking something like a teabag or powder milk to brew? and is this sense another sort of unique definition utilized in ph hokkien?? Mlgc1998 (talk) 22:10, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: My suggestion, maybe look at 闽南方言大词典 or even Mandarin dictionaries like Pleco. Mandarin content in Wiktionary is incomplete. Also, I think it's better you ask me first if the character is correct before you guess which one it is. Every time you guess something, you can't put it in Wiktionary. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 22:44, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: By the way, remember to tag me every time you reply. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 23:08, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser mandarin dictionaries? If it's a common term that I know Mandarin would have a term for it, I can check Google Translate to give me a result then I'd check it here in wikt if they have something linking to a Hokkien entry for it. The other Hokkien dictionary websites and apps for Hokkien don't have as much content as wiktionary has, like the Taiwanese ones. Wiktionary already consolidates the most content about it online. They have many characters that they don't have that wikt has. It takes time to manually look through old hokkien dictionary pdfs too, if they don't allow Ctrl + F searches, which later I'd have spent a few hours to find out they really do not have the term listed there as well. I just check 闽南方言大词典 when somebody asks me about a term they can't find and wiktionary also doesn't give a clear answer or shows conflicting edits cuz I later find out that both Taiwan MOE dictionary websites and that book from Mainland China shows conflicting choices for characters that one or the other recommends, like for example 【查埔】vs 【丈夫】and【袂】vs【𣍐】and 【人】vs【儂】and etc.

If I ask you on facebook, it takes time as well since I don't expect to get immediate replies from you as well, especially sometimes on certain messages, you didn't even reply at all. I ask you on facebook messenger so that the chat format can more easily support dialogue conversation that isn't in big paragraph block letter forms like this here in wiki talk pages. I'd think chats would be better in making things faster and easier to discuss more stuff collaboratively in detail rather than the block letter format here in wiki talk pages that assume to take only few paragraph exchanges, then people are gonna act like it's sooo long already then even reinforce whatever hostility there may be. If we discussed the same things in real time in chat dialogue form, that format would handle these long texts more, cuz they'd be cut up in separate messages. I heard from other users like that guy from davao that he even met justinrleung on discord. I've met a lot of other enthusiasts in group chats and groups as well and those guys even want to invite you as well there, since they now have a Discord group as well they do voice chats in to practice their ph hokkien every day at around 7pm, PH time. Here's the Discord group they made, and no, it isn't affiliated with TLA. I doubt wil knows about our fb groupchat too. Our FB groupchat is part of the 來學福建話! Let's Learn Hokkien! FB Group. I can add you there if you like. It's pretty active and we have many members from all around the country usually from Metro Manila and Davao and a few from other provinces like Cebu, Zamboanga, Bacolod, Dumaguete, etc and even those currently outside the country. There's a few as well that aren't filchi, but interested in learning or studying ph hokkien. I usually ask there if the users there and their families recognize certain terms, comparing with my family, since it seems it does truly somewhat vary among different families but most seem to still be Jinjiang or Nan'an or Xiamen descendants with most terms being recognized seeming to usually be Jinjiang and formal Xiamen terms. The ones with ancestry from Zhangzhou seem to have largely shifted their vocabulary as well to Jinjiang + formal Xiamen vocabulary with their remaining Zhangzhou pronounced terms. The groupchat is as active as that 閩人閩語 group you ask at and I'm sure a few of the people you've talked to or know are also part of the group, a few else missing tho, but some of the members also know the ones I'm sure you've been in contact with too. In discord, there's also the Learn Min Languages 閩語學堂, where every saturday night from around 9pm to maybe 2am, there's also voicechats in full hokkien with users from Taiwan (Taipei, & etc.), Malaysia (Kuala Lumpur, Penang, Johor, & etc), China (Quanzhou & etc), Singapore, Indonesia (Medan) there. Also, don't worry, most of the users in all these groups are majority millennials and gen Z, just a handful of gen X and boomers, but of course, they all have access to their families with gen X and boomers that natively speak hokkien. Mlgc1998 (talk) 23:59, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Tag me in Wiktionary. I respond here. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 00:03, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser ba't mo palagi gusto dito? natatakot ka ba sa mga view ng mga tao? nagkaeffect yata ung mga radical views ng mga ibang kumausap sayo 'no? naku, parte lang 'yan ng buhay kahit na may mga views sila na di ka agree. di rin naman ako agree palagi sa mga gusto rin nila, pero useful 'yan malaman kung ano ba gamit nila in ph. kundi, sila mismo pupunta dito sayo lol, lalo na this place claims to represent their dialect of hokkien rin. kung natatakot ka na may effect sila, naku ayaw mo unahan nalang na kilalanin sila kung may iba silang terms kaysa pa sila mismo pumunta dito mag-ayos ng mga bagay na mapapacheck ka lang rin sa gawa nila kung masurprise ka rin na di consistent sa anong familiar sayo. sila rin mismo pumupunta rito sa wikt before I met them. ang difference lang, wala silang account. gumagamit pa ng vpn. Mlgc1998 (talk) 00:21, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Simple. We can easily reference back Wiktionary discussions here anytime for editors, and in here other editors can contribute. Not in Facebook or other platforms. I'm well aware I don't know everything. That's why I ask. But there's a reason to stick inside Wiktionary. Got it? Oh yeah, type in English, that's also for other editors, since this is English Wiktionary. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 00:37, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser I've long known that this is one of the things you're trying to do, but what you're saying happens either way. What someone discusses here in the labyrinth of wiktionary without anyone stumbling or linking to it is the same thing as that, just like the stuff you neglected or refused to tell me about before when you didn't respond to my questions before. There are multiple stuff I've had to explain to people who wondered about your edits before even if there was a discussion on some talk page somewhere that I wouldn't remember as well where the link would be and would be harder to find than if I just explained to them directly. Besides, one does not need to not discuss solely on wiktionary. These aren't mutually exclusive things. A matter discussed elsewhere and thought about outside wiktionary either way will also have edit summaries that can explain where that came from, regardless where it was discussed or not discussed at all. If it's too long for an edit summary and you really wanted others to understand why the edit was so, then you can as easily drop the explanation in the talk page too or as part of comments in the edit page or in the same way, people still ask you directly. Parang nakuha mo ba ito kay wil? natatakot sa kung ano mang effect ng idea of anyone outside wikt or is it just from worries learned from history. I have a friend who also thinks about history a lot. Wouldn't it be counterintuitive for you to recluse and act like an island to the people of your community you're documenting the languages from? or idk why else you don't like joining any group. some sort of past trauma? wouldn't be easier to learn from others stuff our own families didn't know about? or is the supposed danger of influence some others outside the community that worrisome to filter out? I have a friend who's paranoid as much about future worries coming from outside the community, doesn't keep us from learning to filter and decide what's truly in our community from what's not. Learning from more people in the community will determine what more of them recognize than other terms you're worried about that we may encounter. or maybe you feel like you don't have confidence in yourself that you can properly filter out what others within whatever groups tell you about? Mlgc1998 (talk) 01:24, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: I think you're misunderstanding me. Why are you assuming that I don't consult the community? Of course I consult many people before I make edits. I ask mainly elders that I know, and I usually ask people in BHG FB group. Consultation is different from actual editing practice. For example, character usage, average Fil-Chi won't know about that, but people in Wiktionary will. There are other Min Nan editors in this platform. Don't be afraid of asking me here, especially with the more technical stuff. If you want to bring me in any specific topic discussions on Facebook, you can tag me there and I can join in. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 09:21, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser I wasn't saying about you not consulting people. I can clearly see that in some fb groups I've come across where you've asked something and even the older groups I'm not part of. What I'm saying is that whenever there's some sort of group where there's many millennial and gen Z filchis that are also enthusiastic about ph hokkien, you seem to always not want to take part in any of that. I mean no pressure if you're feeling like these guys are somehow gonna rely on you or expect you to teach them something if you got your hands full. It's not about consulting them, not like whatever they have in their families is going to somehow supersede what you already know in the ones around you or you've encountered. It's about at least connecting with these others who are likely to also be interested in growing themselves with this whole Hokkien thing and potentially later collaborating with them to help with these things. The character usage thing isn't something known in the mainstream yet, but the ones who go and try and figure it out is something that happens throughout the years just like how you and I gradually somehow got here and had to figure things out and learned about these years ago. These guys are on the same sort of path with varying levels on how people grow and figure it out and wiktionary is really currently only the most reliable attainable resource out there for getting to that Hokkien body of knowledge for Ph hokkien that no one dictionary out there can give, especially with the sort of difference our dialect has with those in other countries who might not want to focus on showing. Right now, everyone not being connected together makes it so everyone is like having to reinvent the wheel all by themselves all the time, so you get all these people who even as native speakers or enthusiasts themselves just do not get to that technical stuff, that only we that decided to dig through this are handling. The closest conduit for them to get to that stuff easier is what we're building here in wiktionary and if there's a bigger community among the youth that is informed and made more literate, they can be able to figure out how to more properly learn these technical stuff than what they're grasping at now and also have it easier for others to be able to later also contribute themselves, since isn't that the goal anyways that something like this place is supposed to help educate people on languages like these, especially with our community where the norm in the youth is that they wouldn't know anymore unlike their elders, who the problem also is that they themselves also didn't grow up to be literate in these characters and writings to offer it any permanence or growth, so I'm saying, we have a growing hill or potential mountain of knowledge where what sort of future for PH Hokkien could grow from, with better quality than what's out there now than just being a dissipating oral language; and only the people that stumble on this and are willing to climb it and build it are slowly growing it, whereas if the people wandering out there who would also like to potentially contribute are only managing to stumble on this by chance, with this high barrier one has to reach just to be able to do this "editing practice", and from what we have now, it's as if you're fine with building that on your own, cuz if you're disinterested in these other people, you're gonna continue being alone building this here, while micromanaging whatever time I think of pouring myself into this or whoever stumbled into trying their hand here as well. Wouldn't it be easier if there was a bigger group having an existing collaborative environment to build stuff like this up? Groups where other fellow filchi being the most interested in willingly contributing to that, even if at first a lot of them are gonna suck at it too. I mean you gotta water a plant before you grow a forest to nurture these things. Mlgc1998 (talk) 12:42, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: You talked about a lot, but are we clear that you can ask me in Wiktionary with more technical stuff? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 12:59, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

挐痟痟 and 厲痟痟

Hey, I'm deleting these entries and moving them to the right characters. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 02:08, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Also this too. This is what I mean when I said to ask me for character use first. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 02:11, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser I was gonna do that, but feel free to do so. Btw, the pings don't seem to work now for whatever entry talk page discussion messages you may have left in other pages. I've only seen them now upon stumbling on them. Mlgc1998 (talk) 02:28, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Really? Weird. It must be in your settings. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 02:29, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: there's no point in pinging someone on their own talk page, anyway. If they don't get a notification because you edited their talk page, they're not going to get a notification from the ping, either. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:27, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz Yeah, I just check the page every time or people's contrib page or previous pages I edited, just to check every time if something happened. That's why I always thought this was a big hassle rather than if it were a chat or the format was somehow better. Mlgc1998 (talk) 03:32, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

I just checked the notification settings page, and there's no way to turn off notifications for talk-page edits. I don't know anything about the mobile interface, though. The only other possibility is that you have some app or browser setting that's stopping notifications from this site. You should be seeing a red notification icon at the top of the page next to your user name whenever you view a page on this site. If you're spending your time on other Wikimedia projects, you can change the settings on those sites to show notifications from other wikis. If you don't have pages open on any Wikimedia sites, the only option I can think of would be change the settings to send you email notifications, but that would only be worth it if you were getting notifications from your email app. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:53, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz It must have something to do with email notifications cuz I turned that off before. Mlgc1998 (talk) 04:08, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Pinged you for edit in etymology

Hey, did you see my recent ping in an entry? Just seeing if your pinging really doesn't work. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 22:31, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser I tweaked some settings from before. It seems to work now. Mlgc1998 (talk) 22:56, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Nice! --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 22:57, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Regarding the "pera" Tagalog entry etymology, what would the word "Pira" mean as in the name of "Panday Pira", the blacksmith?

Somehow the r phoneme was used in this name. And provincial Tagalog (which preserves more archaic characteristics) even now has the i-e allophone often attributed to Visayans. The Malay word is pronounced exactly the same as the Tagalog word except for the glottal stop. A similar doublet is with the word "sombrero", where the doublet is "sambalilo". Myrnamyers (talk) 15:23, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

@Myrnamyers If his name means "silver", the "Pira" in his name might be in Kapampangan since he himself was one, but his title "Panday" is in Tagalog because he later worked in Tagalog-speaking areas later in life. The word for "blacksmith" in Kapampangan is "pande". I further decided to look into some old Spanish-Tagalog dictionaries from past centuries. It seems "pera" for "money" is not recorded that much, so it might not be an old enough word to have come from Malay and afaik, there did come an older word for "money" from the Malay world back then, it was salapi which originally came from Arabic according to Potet (2013). In the dictionaries I checked, it looks to be that perra (“female dog”) for Spanish is attested to be used in Vocabulario tagalo-castellano (1893) and also defined as such for Tagalog as recorded in Vocabulario de la Lengua Tagala (1835), but by 1889 for Tagalog, the Diccionario hispano-tagalog, Volume 2 (1889) would define the Spanish word "PERA." as either "a pear"; "a beard"; and "Ang pagaárî; ò katunkúlang malakí ang kita, at kákauntî ang pàgod." ("The ownership; or responsibility with big income, and little fatigue."), and in other parts of the Spanish-speaking world in colonial times, perra (“female dog”) did also later come to informally mean "money" mainly because the lion embossed on the Perra gorda (10 centimo peseta coin) and Perra chica (5 centimo peseta coin) and pela (1 peseta coin), when seen from afar, looked funnily the same as a female dog, ala "bitch" lol, so... it looks to be more like an inter-Pacific Spanish commercial slang term that got normalized and cemented till the joke was no longer detectable lol. Mlgc1998 (talk) 01:55, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Potet's attempts at linking Tagalog and Japanese

Hello Mlgc1998, I ran across your recent addition to the etymology of Japanese め (“eye”). While a connection between Proto-Japonic ma / me and Proto-Austronesian *maCa might be possible, Potet's attempts at etymology are speculative at best, and reveal an ignorance of Japanese and Chinese on the one hand, and a troubling propensity for "what-if" thinking on the other.

By way of example, his musings on the Japanese word for "pickle" are problematic. From page 345 of his Tagalog Borrowings and Cognates:

12.2.5. A similar question comes to mind when one considers Jpn/ tsukemono 漬物 "pickles", whose components are Jpn tsuke "pickling" and Jpn mono "thing". Could, in this word, Jpn. tsuke come from Sans cukra चुक्रा (cukrā) "vinegar" (MW 399³), and be a cousin of Tag súkaq "vinegar", and Mal. cúka چوک (Fav. 1:490) "vinegar"? In Chinese 漬／渍 (zì) means "stain" (Har. 1998:236 #77/68). the [sic] Japanese may have selected it because its left component means "water", and its right one "blue/green" as in Jpn. aomono 青物 "green thing ▶ vegetable".

Much here that is incorrect.

• The Sanskrit term refers specifically to the tamarind fruit, and by extension, sourness and fruit vinegar.
• The Japanese portion tsuke is from verb tsukeru, "to stick one thing into or onto another", in reference to sticking vegetables into pickling liquid. This is from verb root tsuk-, which is an ancient and very productive part of the language. This is in no way a borrowing.
• The Chinese 漬／渍 (zì) means "soak", with "stain" a follow-on meaning. When one pickles something, one soaks the item in a pickling liquid.
• The commentary about "the Japanese may have selected [the character]" is alarming what-aboutism.

While some of what he brings up is interesting, and might be worth further exploration, it is impossible to ignore that the things he gets wrong, he gets wrong so badly that it casts doubt on all of his purported Japanese linkages. This is similar to Starostin's terrible work on Japanese etymologies and his attempts at creating an Altaic or Nostratic etymological dictionary.

I have accordingly reverted a couple of your changes to Japanese etymology sections. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:55, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

@Eirikr He did put these in a "Hypotheses" section of his book and sometimes he's not that familiar with the Hokkien or other Chinese borrowings in Tagalog as well, besides relying on other sources like Chan-Yap (1980). The stuff he writes about Japanese tho has some interesting ideas. I didn't put the pickles part tho, nor intended to. Anyways, doesn't Japanese have a behavior of like selecting certain kanji to fit best for some kun'yomi readings, like Ateji. That's probably what he was referring to, as to why the kanji character is that way. As for Japanese 目 (“eye”), I was wondering too about the possible relationship between Proto-Japonic ma / me and Proto-Austronesian *maCa. Mlgc1998 (talk) 19:24, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I think there's room for exploring a Proto-Japonic ↔ Proto-Austronesian linkage. Geographically they're not that far apart, and we know that the Austronesians were skilled mariners, what with Polynesia and all.  :) That said, we need to find a way of aligning -- ideally, a well-reasoned explanation of sound shifts and correspondences between the two language families.

Re: Japonic ma and Austronesian maCa, the second syllable in Austronesian is difficult to reconcile. Is this an addition in Austronesian? If so, what is it, and how and why was it added? Is this an elision in Japonic? If so, how and why was this removed? Or are these actually not related, and just accidentally similar? While interesting, I am loath to include this on the basis of a single author who (so far as I've seen) hasn't done anything to explain the discrepancies.

Re: Japanese kanji choices, this was a matter of choosing those written Chinese words with meanings that matched the spoken Japanese words. For "pickling", the Chinese character 漬／渍 (zì) means "soaking", and so too does the Japanese term 漬ける (tsukeru). The "pickling" sense is derived from the "soaking" sense. There was no character decomposition of the kind that Potet suggests.

Re: Japanese 青 (ao) and Tagalog bughaw, the phonology is very difficult to reconcile. Japanese ao comes from Old Japanese awo, from Proto-Japonic *awo. Likely cognate with, or root of, Japanese 藍 (ai, from older awi, “indigo”). Meanwhile, Tagalog bughaw comes from Proto-Malayo-Polynesian *(ma-)biʀaw. The only overlapping portion is aw. All daughter languages include consonants before the ending aw, whereas the Japanese starts with the aw. I don't think we can match these up, until and unless we have a solid theory that lays out the necessary sound correspondences.

That's all I have time for right now. I hope that helps explain things. Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:45, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Also the "In Chinese 漬／渍 (zì) means "stain" (Har. 1998:236 #77/68). the Japanese may have selected it because its left component means "water", and its right one "blue/green" as in Jpn. aomono 青物 "green thing ▶ vegetable"." part of previously quoted book mistakes phonophore of 漬／渍 (zì), which is 責／责, not 青.

漬／渍 (zì) is a semanto-phonetic compound consisting of water semantophore (氵 (shuǐ)) and 責／责 phonophore (/*ʔsreːɡ/ in Old Chinese according to Zhengzhang).

Semantic meaning of a phonophore component rarely matters, and in this case 責／责 has meanings such as "tax, debt, to demand, to blame, to interrogate, to punish, duty", not "blue/green".

青 has meaning "blue-green, blue, green", but does not look to be related to 責／责 in any way. Its pronunciation /*sʰleːŋ/ in Old Chinese (according to Zhengzhang) was different from 責／责's /*ʔsreːɡ/.

Arfrever (talk) 23:17, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Oh, he must not have seen the difference with 貝 and 月. Mlgc1998 (talk) 08:58, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Basis for Adding These Words

What's your basis for adding words like "Korean" and "Thai"? If it's the inclusion in Diksiyonaryo.ph, that's not sufficient, because the dictionary isn't a pure Filipino/Tagalog dictionary, it has words like "because", "cat", "dog", "where", "therefore", "whatever", etc. Mar vin kaiser (talk) 15:18, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser Both of them are in diksiyonaryo.ph, where Koreano redirects back to Korean as the main entry and the entry for Thai there has all the usual characteristics for the usual Filipino/Tagalog entries they have there. I was wondering as well about the english terms that diksiyonaryo also has added in their system, but I checked google books with search keywords like "salitang ~" or "wikang ~" or "mga ~" or "ng ~" or "isang ~" and there seems to be many publications using those words in the middle of full tagalog sentences or paragraphs or book titles. I would've imagined before that a tagalog form of Korean would've been like "Koriyan" or "Koryano" but I guess the publications and usages available online with people all just prefer to spell it like they do in English, retaining the "ean" part. As for "Thai", I can't imagine any other alternative Tagalog form of this. I suppose maybe "Tay" or "Thay" but seems weird for now. Idk if people would seriously write that in full tagalog prose. Mlgc1998 (talk) 04:17, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: As I said, inclusion in Diksiyonaryo.ph is not sufficient, since it's more of a Philippine dictionary, not a Filipino/Tagalog dictionary. So it includes words used within the archipelago. So, to tell you the truth, this is an issue that is in my list of issues for Tagalog entries in Wiktionary, which I chose not to breach as of the moment, but since you created entries on it, I might as well.

The issue here is the Tagalog terms for countries and their nationalities and demonyms. The ones we can be sure of for inclusion are the Spanish-derived terms and the pre-Spanish terms. They're obviously already part of Tagalog. The issue here is that due to the proliferation of English in Philippine society, technically speaking, most of the Spanish-derived terms are now dated or even archaic (depending on the term). These days, technically, most people use the English term instead. However, the existing issue of vagueness of what constitutes a legit borrowed Tagalog word and what constitutes code-switching is what's at play here. It's hard to determine, and I don't think we can immediately or definitively say that, "Yes, this is a fully borrowed Tagalog word." Therefore, what I've been doing so far is to hold back from making entries on it. My initial idea was to put usage notes in all the countries, nationalities, and demonyms of Spanish origin, like for example, Dinamarka, Danes, and Danesa (for Denmark and Danish), and put a usage note saying that due to the popularity of English, it's much more common to say "Denmark" and "Danish" that these words. It's merely a description of the actual language use on the ground. But it's hard to say when we can definitely conclude that "Denmark" and "Danish" are already borrowed Tagalog words or just words used in code-switching. That's my take. So that's why for me, I would hold back first in creating entries like Thai and Korean. The term Koreano is ok, it's widely used and it's of Spanish origin. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:02, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: So basically, I'm thinking of deleting Korean and Thai Tagalog entries. What do you think? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 08:00, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Don't plagiarize

Your definition for street talk is taken wholesale from the referenced Merriam-Webster entry. You should not copy definitions from any dictionary unless you know that the dictionary is in the public domain. Ioaxxere (talk) 04:46, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

@Ioaxxere ok. I'll reword the English definitions next time. Mlgc1998 (talk) 04:57, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Panadería

Hi. It's not good practice to just guess when it comes to etymology. If another user reverts your edits you can either find sources for your edit or you can start a discussion. Etymology very often is not simply based on finding the most similar word. I can't see any possible way for "panado"/"apanado" to have influenced panadería. There are sometimes some linking consonants that do appear, and some English sources suggest that "-tería"/"-dería" denotes a place of business. Hvergi (talk) 18:31, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

@Hvergi are you a native spanish speaker? I'm currently tracking spanish words that have these supposed weird linking consonants that some people claim is just nothing, which this in itself is not sourced. If you want to revert edits, it's not good practice as well to simply revert without any explanation, anyone can do this as well to you, you know? if you disagree, pls provide your sources as well rather than just claiming short unconstructive remarks like "wrong", "not correct", "highly unlikely". If you do not agree with the edits and deem them as "just guess", what would be the difference with your reverts and remarks if not guesses themselves as well. so far, there's no record as of yet here in wikt of a "-tería"/"-dería" for Spanish besides the occassional passing English source wondering about it. DRAE doesn't record any "-tería"/"-dería" as well besides "-ería". The Category:Spanish terms suffixed with -ería so far shows that most of the words there ending in "-tería"/"-dería" have an explanation as to why they end that way. It's mostly just these words panadería and cafetería where it's unexplained where the extra "-ad-" and "-t-" respectively comes from. This doesn't affect Spanish alone since it also affects languages that Spanish has influenced like Tagalog and some others. A century ago, authors like Wenceslao Retana recorded books of the filinismos in Ph. Spanish and some words unique to Ph. Spanish also has some of those supposed letters unaccounted for, such as in carindería, where "-nd-" is unaccounted for. "carindería" and "carí" for Spanish is not in DRAE yet, but I have an old source myself recording them for Ph. Spanish which I was planning to add later, but since you suddenly came up, if you have a source yourself of this "-tería"/"-dería", that's what I would be looking for too. Mlgc1998 (talk) 19:00, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

I am not a native speaker but I did ask the opinion of one. It's sometimes possible to open a discussion on Wiktionary:Etymology scriptorium although it's not the most active forum. (Another seemingly random linking sound is verdulería). Hvergi (talk) 19:19, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

« La palabra panadería se compone de una base léxica que sería pan-, las letras -ad- que reciben el nombre de interfijo y nuestro sufijo -ería. » [1]. Here's also a list of various types of interfixes in the related Asturian. In some languages like German it is customary to list all interfixes here on Wiktionary, should perhaps also be done for Spanish. Hvergi (talk) 19:41, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

@Hvergi My spanish-speaking friend found this website.

« La palabra panadería tiene el significado de "lugar donde hornean o venden pan" y viene del sufijo -ía (cualidad) sobre la palabra "panadero", formada con el sufijo -ero (profesión) sobre la palabra "panada", compuesta con el sufijo -ada (que ha recibido la acción) sobre la palabra "pan" y esta viene del latín panis = "pan". » [1]

and this one clarifies about that -ad- interfix

« -ad- interfijo usado para diferenciarlo de "panero". Este deriva del sufijo -ada (pan -> panada -> panadero) que indica que ha recibido la acción y deriva del latín -atus, como en granada. » [2] Mlgc1998 (talk) 21:56, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Tagalog proverbs

Can you help with finding other Tagalog proverbs or finding meanings for them. I went adding some of them, since we had only one of them then. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 17:30, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

@TagaSanPedroAko like the usage example before like in sunday, "Ang kahoy kung saan ang sunday, doon ang hapay."? For this Category:Tagalog proverbs? There's some interesting ones listed on this page. I don't personally know a lot, besides recognizing those I occasionally hear. maybe, Tagalog bible verses have a lot or maybe some of the old books and novels like Rizal's novels or Ibong Adarna or Florante at Laura or other old books that are fond of sayings. There's probably books available on google books or somewhere with "salawikain", "sawikain", "kasabihan", "bugtong", etc. in the title. The Wikipedia Library might be able to give access to some of them. Mlgc1998 (talk) 17:52, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm mostly thinking of popular proverbs (e.g. ang sakit sa kalingkingan, damdam ng buong katawan, kapag may gusto, may paraan, nasa huli ang pagsisisi). Other popular ones? I'll take a look of that site; hope some ring a bell.

TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 18:43, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Philippine Hokkien

@Mlgc1998 I'm just wondering if you've ever put Hokkien words under "Philippines" in dialectal synonym charts that is from Hokkien spoken in other areas in the Philippines other than Metro Manila? Thanks. Mar vin kaiser (talk) 11:30, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser For the dialectal synonyms chart, it says "Manila (Hokkien)" for quite a while now so no, especially not from our friend with ancestor that once lived moving from Sulu, Zamboanga, Cebu, unless for definition with (Philippine Hokkien) label. I mostly put what I put in dialectal synonyms chart from either or both what I remember my parents often use and also the people in the groupchat or discord was discussing it before, especially the persons living in Metro Manila, tho of course, more things to factor in: metro manila being the capital means as core of filchi where it originally spread from, many filchi living in the provinces also go back and forth from it, both people that originally grew up in metro manila coming back to it or people grew up elsewhere moving into it. I think there's 2 gen X or boomer in chat that is like that.

Also, there are the occassional filchi family as well where they said one parent's side is from quanzhou and another parent's side is from xiamen and some filchi families that grew up raised in protestant filchi churches and schools that call hokkien as "amoy" in all caps like Amoy church service and they use a bunch of deep hokkien terms like the type AJ delos reyes in chat mentioned he learned from church. his church he recently started attending is also somewhere in metro manila he told me before. I think a good example of a filchi protestant pastora lady living in metro manila is this lady who runs this channel. She uses a lot of deep Hokkien terms only heard in protestant filchi churches typically filled with protestant filchi elderlies. I grew up similarly before in a small filchi church before near my street where the boksu talks like that and everyone else is a monolingual hokkien speaking elderly besides me and my parents, which because of that, all the millennials and gen Z including my siblings didnt like attending those cuz we didn't understand most of the deep words before and they would sometimes hire an english-hokkien translator person to simultaneously translate so young filchi can understand as well. I thought before when I was a kid that catholic filchi would have those as well. Anyways, I still feel those deep hokkien terms the same way I feel with deep tagalog terms in old literature in Filipino class like Ibong Adarna or Florante at Laura or many more, so I didn't add any to dialectal synonyms chart unless it's something I always commonly heard from my family that people in the groupchat started discussing about and I saw at least 2-3 people plus confirmation from my parents if its a widespread term.

Though anyways, most dialectal synonyms charts are about common words and concepts anyways, so the ones I put are mostly from my parents and the groupchat, especially if they were all recognizing the term/s. There are some dialectal synonyms chart that I saw before but didn't touch cuz it seemed too technical and my parents also thought it was a fuzzy topic they were not sure of or did not know enough about. Then there are those I have not gotten to yet or seen yet or it was recently made. Mlgc1998 (talk) 14:22, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: But the group chat has several individuals not from Metro Manila, right? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:25, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser yeah, if it first came from those dudes like the dudes from davao, I start asking my parents and some of the dudes in chat that do live in metro manila if it's also a thing here, like for example, if it came from tim5, there was sig before who lives somewhere in san juan or others in chat, then if it's dixon, there's ken and hiong eng who i think both live in metro manila but ken just has been to other provinces afaik.

tim5 is sometimes frustrated by it because he thinks there are words he hears in davao that he thinks are valid too but afaik i haven't heard in metro manila at least in my family and the others in metro manila dont seem familiar of it as well. he once told me he overheard 還(hoân) for "to pay" when he was at the back of some filchi in a supermarket in davao, but to my family and others in chat from metro manila, it just meant "to return" and if with money "to return (money)" but needed 錢 (chîⁿ) after. I'm thinking if it was legit a thing there in Davao, there needed to be more people confirming it or he or someone from there should be confirming it with more people and it could've been added if there was a "Davao (Hokkien)" sort of row, but idk there was no row and he seems to usually rely on me if something is to be added in wikt, so I had to ignore it since there was just "Manila (Hokkien)" and there's no dedicated someone that would add and confirm for Davao or other places like maybe Cebu, so I can only confirm for "Manila (Hokkien)", unless it's about adding the "Philippines" tag to pronunciation or the definitions. there are only a few cases of these tho, but i imagine to detect those more, there needed to be more people from that place to confirm or someone from there dedicated to asking more people like we doing in metro manila. so far it made me think there was a sprinkling of emng terms across ph for the same reasons as above i mentioned in metro manila but adapted to the context of those geographies across ph and am suspecting the epicenter might be filchi people from sulu, like the nearer to there, maaaaybe more emng terms, buuut we don't have somebody from there to confirm besides the one with ancestors from there that grew up in cebu, reporting structurally different vocabs. or idk maybe it's malaysia or singapore that's the source of the emng terms.

there's this big spectrum continuum from zhangzhou speaker descendants in penang island in malaysia and medan in north sumatra, indonesia spreading to yangon, myanmar and phuket, southern thailand, and kelantan to the thai border provinces like to pattani in southern thailand or where Kelantan-Pattani Malay spreads around that Hokkien Kelantan mixed language is also spoken, then moving down south to Singapore to Riau province of Sumatra and Riau islands of Indonesia and Johor to Klang in Malaysia, and Kuching in Sarawak, there seems to be descendant speakers of Amoy-Tong'an dialect (E-mng Tang-oaⁿ khiuⁿ), which probably spreads to Java as well and more of Sarawak to Brunei and Sabah. u mentioned before that Brunei Hokkien likely has a lot of speakers descended from Kim-mng khiuⁿ, which seems to also be under Amoy-Tong'an according to Douglas (1873) especially they are islands next to each other, so then, it makes sense that probably if there are Hokkien speakers in Sabah to Sulu and spreading from there, there must also be Amoy-Tong'an descendant families there, just as most of the Philippines, we have a lot of quanzhou speaker descendants. This big spectrum is somewhat reflective of the geographic positions as well in fujian's coast. Taiwan's hokkien spread is also kind of like that somewhat. Then if we also factor in where the Teochew/Swatow people spread, they also spread to around Malay peninsula, singapore, sumatra, thailand, cambodia, and a little bit in vietnam as well.

I heard as well from a malaysian friend before I talked to that sometimes in penang hokkien fb groups, they say there's also some people there pointing out Amoy coming in so it seems Amoy is really in the middle spreading around. Mlgc1998 (talk) 15:45, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

大部分

The hokkien pronunciation tāi-pō͘-hūn does not match Japanese daibubun, so it is likely not a borrowing "from Japanese pronunciation". Should we change it to something like "tāi-pō͘-hūn - literary; tōa-pō͘-hūn - colloquial"? TongcyDai (talk) 09:22, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

@TongcyDai oh, I suppose that could be better or I guess if basing on Ogawa (1932) 臺日大辭典, we could just additionally mention it to be an orthographic borrowing. Mlgc1998 (talk) 03:54, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

That would be even better, thank you. TongcyDai (talk) 10:11, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Mestizo de Español and Spanish mestizo

Greetings Mlgc1998,

Are the terms "Mestizo de Español" and "Spanish mestizo" virtually synonymous?

Thank you kindly. mynewfiles (talk) 20:44, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Also, could you please verify these entries for accuracy? mynewfiles (talk) 22:26, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

@mynewfiles ok. just curious tho, are you from the philippines? if so which part of ph? or which country are you from? Mlgc1998 (talk) 05:49, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

No, I'm not from the Philippines. But I know many Filipino people. So are my definitions accurate? mynewfiles (talk) 05:53, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

@Mynewfiles oh, ok then. I'll improve upon those new entries you made. I'm from the philippines and those terms you made entries of, I've always repeatedly seen them written in historical books at school and online before, but I had not made entries for them before due to dilemmas about them being multiple words or being more for wikipedia, but since you've finally made them, I'll edit them more accurately. the ones structured "___ mestizo" are still commonly orally and literarily used these days in the Philippines and are expected be understood in the mainstream sense to the average person in the philippines. they came about mostly during the american era in early 20th century due to English trying to translate/calque the previous Spanish "mestizo de ___" terms, which today, they're still somewhat understood due to school, books, museums, and internet teaching about those words and what they're referring to, but in my experience at least, people don't often talk about the "mestizo de ___" orally casually besides when speaking about historical topics. originally tho during most of 20th century and centuries before that, they were likely mainstream terms too. Mlgc1998 (talk) 06:11, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you kindly for your response as well as your information and edification. mynewfiles (talk) 06:31, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Consensus on PH places

@Mlgc1998 It is clear that we have differences on how we should tackle places. I have done my method of adding related places in the definitions via {{meronyms}}, {{coordinate terms}}, and {{hyponyms}}. You have your method of putting it under "See also" via {{col3}} and {{q}}. I have reasons why I have chose my method:

• It is not split up and easier to see which is it referring to
• It clearly states hierarchy (purok/sitio < barangay < (district) < municipality/city < province) (sometimes, purok < sitio, like Gusaran)
• It can delineate a specific barangay (eg. Quirino Hill & Bayan Park)
• It fits neatly with other symantic relations like {{synonyms}} (eg. Pongayan)
• It is easy to just collapse them and make them hidden.
• I have actually tried the "See also" method (see here), but it shatters the moment there are multiple places with the same name. However, I see that your approach is somewhat different.

I can see why you are using the "See also" method, and while I am open to accepting it, I have some reservations:

• What about the most commonly used name Poblacion? Will there just be endless scrolling under "See also"?
• How can it delineate hierarchy, knowing that people outside the Philippines doesn't instinctively know that barangays are meronyms of cities/municipalities, sitios are meronyms of barangays, some puroks are meronyms of sitios while others are meronyms of barangays, etc.?
• What about the name for a group of barangays (like Upper Bauko and Special Geographic Area)?

Looking forward to your answer. — 🍕 Yivan000 ^view_talk 05:43, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

@Yivan000 Putting it in "See also" was the practice before I was here. It's an English entries format that other users here in wikt decided on. I didn't invent it, but the one you're suggesting is what you're initiating yourself. Putting it all those in Template:coord is needlessly lengthy and the motivations for it seems to be encyclopedic in nature, which wiktionary is meant to be an online dictionary focusing on the linguistic details of words, including placenames. Putting links in entries going to other entries is just for easier navigation. If u keep on putting literally all the places in every entry, in the future, will you keep maintaining absolutely all of those or will it later be abandoned years later or left for other people to upkeep? In an ideal world, we could support all these but in the present setup, could u imagine how the practice u initiated will age well? And then, keep in mind as well that happening to all other placenames for all countries and places in the world and also to other languages. It's gonna be bloat for an online dictionary. For further formatting matters, I'd suggest to discuss it though with all the other english entry editors internationally instead. There's a wiktionary discord server and you may go to the English channel if what you're suggesting is favorable for the admins and other editors on the matter. Mlgc1998 (talk) 06:00, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998 @Yivan000 Although I have been seeing Hyponyms in Europe for example. But yeah you can discuss that on the discord server or the beer parlour here. 𝄽 ysrael214 (talk) 07:23, 24 October 2024 (UTC)